I need some help

[lookout123]

Do you think if they were accepted in to mainstream society they would have a need to subvert the mainstream language? They didn't choose to be brought here, they didn't choose to be marginalized.

try something for me, please? read the big bold numbers across the top of your calendar. does your calendar say 1795? 1895? 1995? mine says 2005.

is america perfect? hell no. will it ever be? hell no. are there racists out there? yep. and there always will be. but the vast majority of americans are not going about their day looking for ways to marginalize minorities. unfortunately, when a group of people decides to take on an a behavior for the sole purpose of being different than the mainstream then they are, in effect, marginalizing themselves.

an african being kidnapped, thrown on a ship, and being sold into slavery has absolutely NOTHING to do with the high school sophomore who chooses to say "i be, you be, he be". nothing. to believe that there is a tie between the two is just pointless delusion.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by BigV

Here'syo' post, Brianna.

The entertaining but trivial argument about what constitutes language an' da entirely different subject o' making value judgments as ta da worthiness o' one language over da other has been amusing ta watch.

Y'all jet on an beat each other up over NOTHING! I'll just sit back here an' laugh at yo' pointless exercise. Ya' dig?

I'm having fun. It's not any more pointless than WoW (I just hit 60 on my first toon).

[Trilby]

Why isn't grant posting in ebonics?

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

try something for me, please? read the big bold numbers across the top of your calendar. does your calendar say 1795? 1895? 1995? mine says 2005.

is america perfect? hell no. will it ever be? hell no. are there racists out there? yep. and there always will be. but the vast majority of americans are not going about their day looking for ways to marginalize minorities. unfortunately, when a group of people decides to take on an a behavior for the sole purpose of being different than the mainstream then they are, in effect, marginalizing themselves.

an african being kidnapped, thrown on a ship, and being sold into slavery has absolutely NOTHING to do with the high school sophomore who chooses to say "i be, you be, he be". nothing. to believe that there is a tie between the two is just pointless delusion.

My point here is that in the past they WERE pushed to this behavior and they embraced this behavior. Now it's a part of their culture and getting people to speak like you want them to because YOU say so is nearly impossible.

I agree that they are self-marginalizing now. There are many opportunities for anyone in this country as long as they'll fit through societal filters. But despite the best efforts of black leaders the message of being able to achieve and valuing achievement hasn't penetrated the black community very well yet.

The other thing is our perspective in the U.S. is pretty unique on some things. For instance, do you have any idea how many languages and dialects are present in an area the size of the United States in other parts of the world? There are probably as many dialects in natives of Switzerland as there are in the entire U.S. In germanic countries they try and get everyone to learn Hoch-Deutsch so that all germanics can communicate in a common language. This is similar to what we do with Standard American English.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Why isn't grant posting in ebonics?

It's not appropriate to the audience for one thing. For the other I don't speak AAVE, although I can understand pretty much all of it I've ever heard.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by grant

It's not appropriate to the audience for one thing. For the other I don't speak AAVE, although I can understand pretty much all of it I've ever heard.

Ah, yes. We have to be "down" with the "homies" to speak this delicious bit of Americana. I understand. I'm with a group once a week. A lot of them speak...something...I don't know what it is, and I can't understand it. One of the BIG words that is tossed about in this group is "niggah". That one I do understand, in my whitebread manner. It's used in a variety of ways by these folks. One woman refers to her boyfriend as "mah niggah", but she probably gets away with it because she is black.

[Perry Winkle]

I'd get shot for 'nigga'. I've run into a group of pretty ghetto kids at school that _hate_ the in-group 'nigga'ing they believe it engenders disrespect so they prefer to use the tried and true 'brotha' which is the same thing without the negative connotations.

The good vibes are starting to get around more and more. Hopefully in a couple hundred years we'll have a few more things ironed out.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by grant

I'd get shot for 'nigga'. I've run into a group of pretty ghetto kids at school that _hate_ the in-group 'nigga'ing they believe it engenders disrespect so they prefer to use the tried and true 'brotha' which is the same thing without the negative connotations.

The good vibes are starting to get around more and more. Hopefully in a couple hundred years we'll have a few more things ironed out.

You're school friends might be a little more EDUCATED than the people in my particular group. See? Education brings about enlightenment which is then expressed by people having and using BETTER COMMUNICATION. Wow.

[Queen of the Ryche]

Originally Posted by grant

Can you define what differentiates additions and bastardizations and inherent laziness? It all looks like your average everyday language shifts and changes to me.

"He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.

Prime example. I think the biggest problem for me is when people try to substitute Ebonics for situations when Proper American English is more appropriate - high school ENGLISH essays, etc.

[SteveDallas]

Originally Posted by Brianna

This be Brianna's House of Pleasure.

What was that phone number again?

Originally Posted by Brianna

You're school friends might be a little more EDUCATED

I can't do it. I just can't.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by SteveDallas

I can't do it. I just can't.

Right, Steve. "Your"---Grammar Nazi! I made a typo--a mistake. Wow. You never do when posting. You'RE a Grammar Nazi. I'll remember that.

And you'll NEVER get the number to Brianna's House of Pleasure, either! Ya wank.

[lookout123]

But despite the best efforts of black leaders the message of being able to achieve and valuing achievement hasn't penetrated the black community very well yet.

BS. that was the message that was shouted and pounded into skulls throughout the early and mid 1900's - and it worked. black americans valued education, hard work, and perseverence and they achieved what others thought to be unachievable. there was a change in the late '70's through the '90's. instead of work hard and become apart of the american mainstream culture many chose to differentiate themselves and become separate. fine that is there choice, albeit a bad choice. now having bad grammar and runaway mispronunciation is a sign of being a part of something separate from mainstream america and it is valued by the participants. there are consequences to this choice - one being that many will refuse to take you seriously.

imagine how far Martin Luther King, Jr and Malcolm, among others, would have been received if instead of "I have a dream..." we heard "I be dreamin dat my lit'l niggas not be judged on da cola o day skin"

as far as the multiple languages in europe bit... having been there last week i can tell you that there are more than i can count. so what? those each have a historical basis. geography once dictated the language. each area had its own and people didn't travel as we do today. that means that there are many many languages within relatively small geographical areas. there is a historical cause. that is not the case in america. ebonics hasn't been handed down for centuries. it is a relatively new bastardization of english.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Queen of the Ryche

"He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.

Prime example. I think the biggest problem for me is when people try to substitute Ebonics for situations when Proper American English is more appropriate - high school ENGLISH essays, etc.

You've given an example. I'm not quite sure what you mean with your example, other than different languages are different. I agree that when you're being educated in an SAE system using an alternate language is not appropriate.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

BS. that was the message that was shouted and pounded into skulls throughout the early and mid 1900's - and it worked. black americans valued education, hard work, and perseverence and they achieved what others thought to be unachievable. there was a change in the late '70's through the '90's. instead of work hard and become apart of the american mainstream culture many chose to differentiate themselves and become separate. fine that is there choice, albeit a bad choice. now having bad grammar and runaway mispronunciation is a sign of being a part of something separate from mainstream america and it is valued by the participants. there are consequences to this choice - one being that many will refuse to take you seriously.

A few improved their station, most didn't. New efforts need to be made. I don't want to argue this particular aspect. It's been done to death.

Originally Posted by lookout123

imagine how far Martin Luther King, Jr and Malcolm, among others, would have been received if instead of "I have a dream..." we heard "I be dreamin dat my lit'l niggas not be judged on da cola o day skin"

Obviously,so what is your point?

Originally Posted by lookout123

as far as the multiple languages in europe bit... having been there last week i can tell you that there are more than i can count. so what? those each have a historical basis. geography once dictated the language. each area had its own and people didn't travel as we do today. that means that there are many many languages within relatively small geographical areas. there is a historical cause. that is not the case in america. ebonics hasn't been handed down for centuries. it is a relatively new bastardization of english.

AAVE has a historic basis starting about 500-600 years ago. Where's the lack of historic cause? The reason AAVE is so widespread now is that for the last 200 years people have been pretty mobile. Now with media outlets as pervasive as they are today it spreads even more and has a better chance of sticking around.

It's funny because using bastardization meaning "to debase or corrupt" is a relatively new change in SAE.

Now you're going to come back and say they make a choice to be different. The more I think about this issue the more it becomes apparent that they really don't want to be a part of American mainstream, I've never heard these people beg to be homogenous. Yeah, they complain and fight and grumble about being kept down but, do they really want to be let up? It seems the ones that want up and are willing to work for it have the ability. Let them make their choice, that's the great thing about being human -- there are always choices.

[lookout123]

A few improved their station, most didn't.

you are saying that most black americans are no better off than their predecessors 50 + years ago. that is just ignorance. enough said.

and the idea that people who are utilizing ebonics don't want to be "let up"... what a load of crap. these are the same people complaining about being held down. you can't be held down if you aren't trying to stand up to begin with.