I need some help

[Queen of the Ryche]

Originally Posted by grant

Can you define what differentiates additions and bastardizations and inherent laziness? It all looks like your average everyday language shifts and changes to me.

"He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.

Prime example. I think the biggest problem for me is when people try to substitute Ebonics for situations when Proper American English is more appropriate - high school ENGLISH essays, etc.

[lookout123]

But despite the best efforts of black leaders the message of being able to achieve and valuing achievement hasn't penetrated the black community very well yet.

BS. that was the message that was shouted and pounded into skulls throughout the early and mid 1900's - and it worked. black americans valued education, hard work, and perseverence and they achieved what others thought to be unachievable. there was a change in the late '70's through the '90's. instead of work hard and become apart of the american mainstream culture many chose to differentiate themselves and become separate. fine that is there choice, albeit a bad choice. now having bad grammar and runaway mispronunciation is a sign of being a part of something separate from mainstream america and it is valued by the participants. there are consequences to this choice - one being that many will refuse to take you seriously.

imagine how far Martin Luther King, Jr and Malcolm, among others, would have been received if instead of "I have a dream..." we heard "I be dreamin dat my lit'l niggas not be judged on da cola o day skin"

as far as the multiple languages in europe bit... having been there last week i can tell you that there are more than i can count. so what? those each have a historical basis. geography once dictated the language. each area had its own and people didn't travel as we do today. that means that there are many many languages within relatively small geographical areas. there is a historical cause. that is not the case in america. ebonics hasn't been handed down for centuries. it is a relatively new bastardization of english.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

BS. that was the message that was shouted and pounded into skulls throughout the early and mid 1900's - and it worked. black americans valued education, hard work, and perseverence and they achieved what others thought to be unachievable. there was a change in the late '70's through the '90's. instead of work hard and become apart of the american mainstream culture many chose to differentiate themselves and become separate. fine that is there choice, albeit a bad choice. now having bad grammar and runaway mispronunciation is a sign of being a part of something separate from mainstream america and it is valued by the participants. there are consequences to this choice - one being that many will refuse to take you seriously.

A few improved their station, most didn't. New efforts need to be made. I don't want to argue this particular aspect. It's been done to death.

Originally Posted by lookout123

imagine how far Martin Luther King, Jr and Malcolm, among others, would have been received if instead of "I have a dream..." we heard "I be dreamin dat my lit'l niggas not be judged on da cola o day skin"

Obviously,so what is your point?

Originally Posted by lookout123

as far as the multiple languages in europe bit... having been there last week i can tell you that there are more than i can count. so what? those each have a historical basis. geography once dictated the language. each area had its own and people didn't travel as we do today. that means that there are many many languages within relatively small geographical areas. there is a historical cause. that is not the case in america. ebonics hasn't been handed down for centuries. it is a relatively new bastardization of english.

AAVE has a historic basis starting about 500-600 years ago. Where's the lack of historic cause? The reason AAVE is so widespread now is that for the last 200 years people have been pretty mobile. Now with media outlets as pervasive as they are today it spreads even more and has a better chance of sticking around.

It's funny because using bastardization meaning "to debase or corrupt" is a relatively new change in SAE.

Now you're going to come back and say they make a choice to be different. The more I think about this issue the more it becomes apparent that they really don't want to be a part of American mainstream, I've never heard these people beg to be homogenous. Yeah, they complain and fight and grumble about being kept down but, do they really want to be let up? It seems the ones that want up and are willing to work for it have the ability. Let them make their choice, that's the great thing about being human -- there are always choices.

[lookout123]

A few improved their station, most didn't.

you are saying that most black americans are no better off than their predecessors 50 + years ago. that is just ignorance. enough said.

and the idea that people who are utilizing ebonics don't want to be "let up"... what a load of crap. these are the same people complaining about being held down. you can't be held down if you aren't trying to stand up to begin with.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

you are saying that most black americans are no better off than their predecessors 50 + years ago. that is just ignorance. enough said.

What I'm saying is that few have taken hold of all of the opportunities available to them.

Originally Posted by lookout123

and the idea that people who are utilizing ebonics don't want to be "let up"... what a load of crap. these are the same people complaining about being held down. you can't be held down if you aren't trying to stand up to begin with.

That's only true of literally being held down. It's a convenient fiction so that they can excuse themselves for not even trying to stand up in the first place. It's a similar argument that obese people and school kids tend to use their lack of self control and discipline.

[Perry Winkle]

Cool statistics on socio-economic comparison of minorities to non-hispanic whites.

Fair Data

Some surprising results.

[Queen of the Ryche]

Originally Posted by grant

Cool statistics on socio-economic comparison of minorities to non-hispanic whites.

Fair Data

Some surprising results.

And this has what to do with ebonics?

[lookout123]

What I'm saying is that few have taken hold of all of the opportunities available to them.

how do you figure? have you even looked at the make up of american businesses today compared to 50 years ago? of course, you aren't likely to find any success stories who will speak to you in ebonics... outside of sports or hiphop.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

how do you figure?

How do you figure they have made full use of their opportunities?

Originally Posted by lookout123

have you even looked at the make up of american businesses today compared to 50 years ago?

No, have you?

I never said that they weren't better off today than 50 years ago. I only said that not many of them have done all they could to rise higher. Things have improved greatly for them but mostly in the arena of opportunities.

Just so we don't have to go over this again:

• Blacks are better off in general than they were in the past.
• Blacks still have a long way to go to achieve a level on par with whites.
• Blacks are better represented in business than they were 50 years ago.
• Placeholder for a couple of other things I probably forgot.
• lookout123 is very nearly illiterate.
• lookout123 doesn't understand the concept of context.

Can we now get back to the interesting aspects of this argument and leave the hostility behind us ( or at least find some statistics to back up the arguments so that we can have some closure to the hostilities at some point )?

[lookout123]

lookout123 is very nearly illiterate.
lookout123 doesn't understand the concept of context.

i'm not sure which college you are attending, but in most of the more reputable ones they don't teach insulting someone as an effective means of getting your point across. but if you do feel the need to insult me, come up with something better you son of a motherless goat.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by lookout123

i'm not sure which college you are attending, but in most of the more reputable ones they don't teach insulting someone as an effective means of getting your point across. but if you do feel the need to insult me, come up with something better you son of a motherless goat.

It's over bud. Anyway, I believe I apologized.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Queen of the Ryche

"He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.

Prime example. I think the biggest problem for me is when people try to substitute Ebonics for situations when Proper American English is more appropriate - high school ENGLISH essays, etc.

You've given an example. I'm not quite sure what you mean with your example, other than different languages are different. I agree that when you're being educated in an SAE system using an alternate language is not appropriate.