6/24/2002: Another Palestinian child

[Griff]

dham, you are pro-Israel or at least pro-state when given the choice of which style of violence to support.


There is a difference between fencing off Americas blacks and fencing off the Palestinians. Most of Black America doesn't claim a separate national identity. The Israelis and Palestinians should be separated to at least stop the violence until cooler heads can provide leadership. If the Palestinians are ever going to have an economy, after getting their state, they need to have a relationship with Israel. There is little that the US can do to help the situation other than eliminate our financial and military comittment to Israel. Propping up their controlled economy isolates them from the reallity that they need trade with their neighbors.

Griff - your analysis is incorrect.

When we look at the violence, we need to look at it factually. What are the facts of the current situation?

These are the facts, and they are indisputable:

1) Palestinian extremists such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are <b>targeting</b> innocent citizens in their attacks.

2) The IDF is <b>targeting</b> those which target Israel.

Neither side is perfect, obviously. Israel has made some mistakes, such as firing into a market. This is absolutely unacceptable and should be investigated. But this is the exception, not the rule.

Originally posted by jaguar
Dhamsaic: congratulations for the most shallow analysis or a series of facts i've seen in a long time.

Ill say only one thing, its hard to move wood when i chop off your arms.

Talking of dead kids, 4 of the 5 victims of the currant occupation of the west bank so far have ben under 10.

Jag - this is true, to a certain degree. It is not at all helpful when Israel bombs a Palestinian police station and these actions can certainly be blamed for some of the reluctance of Arafat to "reign in" militants. However, it is hardly accurate to list this as the only cause, or even the biggest.

Far and away the biggest problem when it comes to Arafat reigning in militants is that Arafat is <b>unwilling to do so</b>. Images frequently come along of dead "collaborators" being dragged down the streets by militants. This is not possible in Israel, because its police force would put a stop to it. The Palestinian police force is, quite simply, apathetic. They don't care.

Arafat does not do all that he can do. Not by a long shot. As I've explained in other threads, he could very easily help put a stop to the suicide attacks by collaborating with Israel and arresting known militants for trial. On all but a few occasions, he has refused to do so.

As far as children being killed, we've covered this in another thread as well - they are not <b>targeted</b> by Israel. Is it a shame that they died? Absolutely. Their life is as valuable as anyone else's. But they were not deliberately targeted. Their death, while tragic, is accidental. The same cannot be said of the three children murdered in a settlement last week.

In other words, stop bringing up the children thing, because your argument is far too weak to support it. You cannot win because to do so, you need to be able to justify the targeting and intentional, knowing murder of children. Which you cannot possibly do.

[Griff]

I'm still chewing on this idea that Ut and yourself posit, that there can be an accidental death in war. War is waged intentionaly. In war there will be casualties among the innocent. Where is the accident in that? To me, its like the drunk driving 80 mph on a back road, its no accident.

Well then your view is, in my opinion, very short sighted. Here's an example of an accidental death:

Israel knows that a militant is going to be leaving his house at about 10:30 AM to go to a Hamas meeting. This man is responsibile, directly, for the deaths of a number of Israelis. They see his car pull out and wait for it to be in a remote-enough area for a "targeted killing". Then, when the time is right, Israeli helicopters appear and fire missiles on the vehicle.

The man is dead. This was intentional. Goal accomplished.

Unfortunately, his young daughter was in a car seat in the back. Her death was not an objective. Accidental killing.

This has happened before and, unfortunately, it will happen again. It doesn't change the fact that she's dead, and that sucks. But it's not intentional.

I've said it before, and I will say it again: Palestinian militants <b>target</b> civilians. Israel targets those who target Israelis. Whereas the goal of Palestinian militant groups is to kill as many civilians as possible (and Hamas has their "glory record" on their homepage, listing their most successful attacks - I know, I have seen this for myself), Israel does not target civilians. Do civilian casualties still occur? Yes, and it's awful, as death generally is. But there is a big difference between intentionally killing the innocent and unintentionally killing the innocent.

By your logic, there should be just one sentence for any type of death-related crime, because they're all the time. The guy that accidentally backs over his son with his truck and kills him (this happened to a kid I knew in elementary school) is guilty of the same crime as Ted Bundy? Absolutely not, and I don't think that even you would try to argue so. There is intentional killing and unintentional killing, and there's a world of difference between them.

[Nic Name]

Or this example... the IDF goes into the West Bank intending to go after terrrorists and deliberately fires a tank shell into a market because the folks there are shopping during an Israeli imposed curfew. You might say that's an accident. It sucks. But the Israeli government can't be criticized for that ... it wasn't intentional. That's an assumption.

It is also possible that some Israeli soldiers are taking an eye for an eye and kill Palestinian civilians, including children, as an act of revenge against the terrorists' killing of Israeli civilians, including children.

It is possible that many Palestinians have that perception of the IDF incursions into the West Bank, and view Palestinian terrorist acts as a militant response to Israeli aggression.

None of these actions are justifiable, nor can they be exculpated by a denial of intention, when the acts are deliberate, not accidental.

There is no reality, just perceptions of reality.

btw, David, your facts are just your statements of fact, and they may be disputable even if you say they're indisputable.

Originally posted by Nic Name
Or this example... the IDF goes into the West Bank intending to go after terrrorists and deliberately fires a tank shell into a market because the folks there are shopping during an Israeli imposed curfew. You might say that's an accident. It sucks. But the Israeli government can't be criticized for that ... it wasn't intentional. That's an assumption.

We've already been over this one, and I've already stated that it is unacceptable. Is it an accident or not? I don't know. I've already said that it should be investigated. I've also said that incidents like these are the exception, not the rule. It should be noted that Israel has, at the very least, acknowledged their fuckups and, I believe, apologized for the deaths of innocent civilians. The same cannot be said of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, etc.

It is also possible that some Israeli soldiers are taking an eye for an eye and kill Palestinian civilians, including children, as an act of revenge against the terrorists' killing of Israeli civilians, including children.

Duh. This is also irrelevant in this discussion because actions like these would be those of individuals, not entities. There is a very big difference. There are groups that are operating under a stated goal of destroying Israel. The IDF is acting under the stated goal of keeping that from happening. The IDF goes about accomplishing its goal by targeting and executing attacks against militants and those that support them. The aforementioned anti-Israel groups go about their goal by killing civilians.

Do Israeli soldiers kill innocent victims intentionally? I'm absolutely certain that they do. But this is not a function of the group. It is a function of a person. A single individual. This is an important distinction to make.

It is possible that many Palestinians have that perception of the IDF incursions into the West Bank, and view Palestinian terrorist acts as a militant response to Israeli aggression.

Absolutely. This is due in large part to the fact that Arafat will not lead. The people are being lead by the extremists and Arafat is doing nothing to curb this extremist sentiment.

btw, David, your facts are just your statements of fact, and they may be disputable even if you say they're indisputable.

Again, no. Facts are facts, period. Ariel Sharon is the Prime Minister of Israel. Yasser Arafat is the chairman of the Palestinian Authority. Yitzhak Rabin is deceased. Militant organizations exist with and act upon a stated goal of destroying Israel. Israel acts to keep this from happening. Those are facts.

[froody]

Originally posted by sleemanj


I hear that african americans commit a lot of murders as compared to white middle class people, perhaps in the USA neighborhoods should be divided into white and black with checkpoints....

That was very poor phrasing on my part. The real difference is that we're not at war with the blacks in this country. If about once a week a black guy would go to a random place and blow himself and any bystanders to bits, claim it was for all his black brothers, and have most of the other black people cheer him on for doing that, then I'd be all for isolating all blacks in some place.

I guess the only reason Israel doesn't want to isolate the Palestinians is because that's a lot like giving them their own state.

[Xugumad]

Tony, Dave, and all others who continue emphasizing the vast numbers of innocent Israeli children murdered by the Palestinians: why not look at the actual numbers of minors killed in the occupied terrirories between December 1987 and January 2002?

Shall we take the numbers published by an Israeli group (which includes members of the Knesset), as to not be fooled by anti-Jewish propaganda? Sure.

Total number of Palestinian minors in the occupied territories killed by both Israeli security forces and civilians:

433 (115 of whom were 13yrs or younger)


Total number of Israeli minors killed in BOTH THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES and Israel:

50 (10 of whom were 13yrs or younger)


Although things may have got even more violent since that data was compiled (January), the trend continues. Some crimes, however, are publicized and used as propaganda much more efficiently than others.

Yes, both sides are wrong to propagate violence against innocents. The manner in which the Palestinians are portrayed as the sole bloodthirsty murderers, however, is stomach-churning - if you know the truth.

Pity USA Today, Fox News, and the NYT won't spell it out for you. When Ted Turner correctly pointed out that Israel was engaging in state-sponsored terroristm (which is factually accurate from the point of view of political science, by the way), the uproar immediately forced him to retract and clarify.

And if the disproportionate number of children killed doesn't persuade you, how about this: Between September 2000 and April 2002, 300 Israelis, and 1200 Palestinians were killed in the Second Intifada. Where are the headlines?

Before answering, please read the two sources listed below; the first especially is outstanding in its description and analysis of reporting.

X.


Sources:
http://www.fair.org/activism/network-retaliation.html
http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...ors_Killed.asp

Xug -

Firstly, I was not "emphasizing the vast numbers of innocent Israeli children murdered by the Palestinians". Maybe you should go back and re-read what I've said. Tony also has not emphasized numbers. Probably because we both know that they are unimportant.

Now... as far as your numbers go... we all know this. You, as well as many others, are missing the point. The numbers are awful. The death is awful. That's not what this is about.

I will say it again. <b>Hamas, Islamic Jihad an the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which are the three most active Palestinian extremists groups that are carrying out attacks against Israel, are specifically targeting *****CITIZENS*****</b>.

If they were attacking military personnel and bases and the occasional innocent got killed, it would be <b>entirely different</b>. However, they are <b>not</b>. Fuck those numbers, because they hardly paint an accurate portrait. Show me the Israeli soldier that stormed a Palestinian house and shot 3 kids and their mother. That would be deliberately targetting citzens. Fortunately, it hasn't yet happened. You know, at least most of the time when Israel launches an attack, they can say "Yeah, that was a fuckup in the sense that we killed 25 civilians, but we got a good number of militants too." How often can the Palestinian extremist groups say that? "Well, we decided to blow up a supermarket this time, to eradicate the... uh... diabolical shopping nature of the Israelis. We didn't get any activists or anything, but we sure blew the shit out of a 17 year old girl and a security guard!" Give me a break.

You've stated before that you're pro-peace. So where are your posts condemning Arafat's refusal to do anything other than sit on his ass and look ugly? He is certainly not pro-peace, as you have proclaimed yourself to be. You're quick to attack Israel, and that's fine - so long as you apply that same logic to the Palestinian Authority and its direct and/or indirect support of Palestinian extremist groups such as al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and Hamas.

[Undertoad]

X-man,

If body counts matter, how about one broken down correctly?

You know, the majority of suicide bombings don't work. The bombers are trained to blow themselves up if they are detected, and a lot of them do, offing only themselves. Some are shot at checkpoints. Some are shot by private security forces. Some are just misses.

Palestinian teenagers are the most militant, the most likely to become suicide bombers. And I've documented a trend here before, wherein Palestinian youngsters are deciding to take matters into their own hands, excited by the new culture of death. I noted the three teenagers who wandered into a settlement with guns in hand, intent on doing harm, shot before they can do any damage.

Your numbers include those deaths. But clearly you don't want to blame Israel for killing a suicide bomber, right? (Well unless your initials are tw.) What if we took those numbers out? What if we listed the numbers of Palestinian deaths <b>minus</b> the ones that died as militants? If you can find those numbers, I would be really interested.

Hmmm. How about if we compare the <b>ages</b> of the children who were killed? That would tell us whether those big death numbers were not indicative of the shooting of militants, but evidence of heartless/racist summary executions and poorly-executed military operations. If as many 5-year-olds were killed as 15-year-olds, we would know that Israeli killing is indiscriminate, intentional... it would be quite the open-and-shut case.

According to your source, here's that breakdown from Sept. 29 2000- June 22, 2002. Please excuse my lousy formatting.

Age # killed
17&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 45
16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 35
15&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 39
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 32
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 25
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10
11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9
9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5
8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6
7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3
5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1
4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2
3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1
<1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1

[sleemanj]

Originally posted by Undertoad

If body counts matter, how about one broken down correctly?
here's that breakdown from Sept. 29 2000- June 22, 2002. Please excuse my lousy formatting.

Age # killed
17&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 45
16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 35
15&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 39
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 32
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 25
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10
11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9
9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5
8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6
7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3
5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1
4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2
3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1
<1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1

But do we know how many of these people were confirmed to be suicide bombers or about to cause some other danger to society, as opposed to how many just looked like suicide bombers to the people who were doing the shooting.

And why so many 10 years old and younger - 33 children 10 years or less posed a threat ? Yea, ok.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Israel is not blameless, they are not squeaky clean, they are every bit as guilty of attrocities as the Palestinian extremists.

Americans don't often see that though, partly because of the American interests in the area, partly because the Israelies look "westernized" compared to Palestinians, and partly because that is what you have become conditioned to by your government.

Outside of the US we are in a position where we can more clearly see the happenings there, there is less of a spin. We can see that Sharon is pig headed, Arafat is a weakling, Hamas does do some good (along with the bad), and the George Dubya is a complete and utter moron (but you knew that).

[elSicomoro]

Statistics, while informative, are easily manipulated.

I was just having some random thoughts, in conjunction with my microcosm post last night.

We're having a big ol' testosterone fest here...I haven't seen a woman (that I know of) post yet.

For that matter (I think someone mentioned this before), we haven't had a Palestinian or Israeli (that I know of) post yet. We know everything and yet nothing. Although, if we did have either or both, I think it would be a refreshing perspective.

We're trying to use facts and logic here, yet being humans, we can't help but be emotional about things. You see it in the posts. It's a good and bad thing IMO.

USA Today, Fox News, and the NY Times? Them's fighting words. Seriously though, you think people in the US are nuts now...give 'em just those three and we're ALL in trouble. (Though the Times and Fox actually contradict each other to a degree.)

[Nic Name]

http://www.mepc.org/journal/0112/0112_siegel.html

[tw]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
These are the facts, and they are indisputable:

1) Palestinian extremists such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are <b>targeting</b> innocent citizens in their attacks.

2) The IDF is <b>targeting</b> those which target Israel.

The indisputable point 2 is factually incorrect. IDF is <b>targeting</b> innocent Palestinians. IDF openly blame terrorism on Arafat and not on Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. so they can justify attacks on innocent Palestinians. If IDF were targeting 'those which target Israel', then a majority of those killed in the Jenin massacre would not be innocent civilians. Human Rights Watch investigation belives the majority killed in Jenin were innocent civilians.

Today the IDF attacked, with tanks, a Palestinian police station because the Police are terrorists? Terrorist only in the eyes of Likud lovers. IDF killed 3 Palestinian policemen and took 20 prisioner including the chief so that terrorist have no police to fear and so that Arafat cannot stop suicide bombers. IDF attacks the innocent people because the intend to to invade and confiscate the occupied territories. IDF and justice are contractions because the IDF now represents the interests of the Jewish Nazi party - Likud.

Long ago, posted were examples of how Israel would confiscate the land. Cut down Olive trees of innocent farmers, without compensation, because terrorist might hide behind those trees - or really so the innocent farmer would not be able to pay his taxes. Israeli Likud lovers could steal his land - legally. That example alone justifies outright rebellion and violence because the oppressed have no legal recourse - as defined by the American Declaration of Independence.

Any people who have their land taken and are not protected by laws have rights to take any and all actions necessary in response to their oppressors. Top on the list of world racists is the current Israeli government and its IDF actors. It is a shame that all Likud extremists don't walk around with signs so the the enemies of humanity could be idenfied before they were killed. With death rates equal on both sides, then peace would happen quickly. Peace? That is what Sharon fears because peace means he cannot attack innocent Palestinians.

Want to end the violence? Then advocate the assasination of Ariel Sharon - as he advocated the murder of Rabin. Eye for an eye. As long a Sharon is alive, then violence must escalate because Sharon wants the instability of violence - as has been his entire history. Anyone who advocates less violence without first addressing reasons for that violence is living in LaLaLand.

Violence must increase. Death rates on both sides must end up in equal numbers of dead peopple - for sanity to return. This will not happen as long as a mental midget President cuddles up to a mass murder - Sharon.