What have you done for me lately?

[lookout123]

a client of mine just left after griping for 20 minutes about the ACLU. knowing the client, that isn't a big surprise, but he did get me thinking. his current gripe revolves around the Boy Scout jamboree. basically all the scouts get together every 4 years and do whatever it is that boy scouts do. this year for the first time since the 1930's the boy scout jamboree was not able to be sponsored or assisted by government organizations. historically, the DOD provides tents and manpower to assist the organization - but not anymore.

because the boy scouts require all members to acknowledge the existence of God, providing them with assistance or sponsorship would be a violation of separation of church and state. apparently this was a victory for the ACLU?

because of their name and their charter, anybody who is critical of the ACLU risks being "anti-american", "anti-liberty", etc. but my real question is what position have they championed recently that actually took some back bone? or even made sense? (I remember a few years back they championed the KKK's right to march in Skokie, IL - unpopular to be sure, but the ACLU realized that even scumbags have certain rights.) other than that case, i can't remember hearing anything out of the ACLU, in recent years, that sounded like anything but petty political maneuvering.

thoughts?

[wolf]

You do know the whole founded by commies thing, right?

[lookout123]

"I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU. What the viewers should be asking is - Bob Rumson, why aren't you?"

the ACLU is just set up in such a way that any argument against them is so easy to twist into a "so what do you have against Civil Liberties?" moment, that its just ridiculous.

they fight to remove religious elements from the public eye. of course, they also are fighting to help the mormon fundamentalists keep the right to be polygamist, childraping, welfare living freaks.

their agenda is pretty hard to nail down sometimes.

[wolf]

Did they end up representing NAMBLA or were they just considering it?

I think the ACLU picks and chooses their cases in such a way as to give themselves the most exposure. If you have a run of the mill 1st Amendment case, don't expect the ACLU to show up on your behalf ... it's not about the law, it's about their publicity.

They are, incidently, largely funded NOT by your $20/year contributions, but by charging exhorbinant legal fees that get lumped into whatever settlement they win (sometimes more than the settlement, incidentally), which is why a lot of the folks they go after settle.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

i can't remember hearing anything out of the ACLU, in recent years, that sounded like anything but petty political maneuvering.

thoughts?

I guess you could call anything petty political maneuvering or publicity seeking, especially since they can't handle every case and therefore must be selective, but here's a list of some issues they're handling:

PATRIOT Act and the SAFE Act
Civil rights for gays
Evolution in schools
Surveilance of citizens
Civil rights for Muslims
Internet regulation
Civil rights for Native Americans

If you want to see everything they're doing, they do have a web site. There, you can see even the stuff that doesn't make national news.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by lookout123

this year for the first time since the 1930's the boy scout jamboree was not able to be sponsored or assisted by government organizations. historically, the DOD provides tents and manpower to assist the organization - but not anymore.

About bloody time. Support an organization that inculcates hatred as a stated part of their mission? Give me a break!

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Pie

About bloody time. Support an organization that inculcates hatred as a stated part of their mission? Give me a break!

You may want to be more certain of what they are actually teaching.

[lookout123]

who and what exactly are boy scouts taught to hate? i remember camping, first aid, volunteering at the old folks home, the carwash and donating proceeds to the school... but for the life of me, i don't remember the badge for showing enough hate. did i miss a lesson?

oh wait, there was that time they let us use knives to whittle - should that be deemed as a danger to society?

[Pie]

Originally Posted by lookout123

who and what exactly are boy scouts taught to hate?

Gays and atheists.

[lookout123]

please provide documentation to show that the boy scouts teach children to HATE gays or atheists.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by lookout123

oh wait, there was that time they let us use knives to whittle - should that be deemed as a danger to society?

You left out teaching you to shoot and forcibly crossing old ladies across streets.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by wolf

You left out teaching you to shoot and forcibly crossing old ladies across streets.

violence, sexism, and ageism, if you apply the ACLU's standards. The terms 'ACLU' and 'standards' should no longer be found in the same sentence. The morally just and absolutely necessary fight for equality that started in the 60s is no longer the ACLU's mission, regardless of what they'd like you to believe. They're more concerned now with keeping their leaders rich and their constituents in a constant state of victimhood. If no one's angry at heterosexual white males any more, the fine folks at ACLU have to get real jobs -- and no one wants that.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Exactly. I didn't feel like I had a choice.

When you're a kid, you don't have "choice" in the adult sense of the word. You don't get to pick your bedtime, you don't get to sass your elders, you have to eat your vegetables. If you want to be a scout, you have to do the salute and the knot-tying and the recited oaths -- it's not a social experiment or a venue for children to feel 'liberated.' The religious subtext to scout rituals is kind of like junior freemasonry. It's all pomp and circumstance, not an attempt to convert anyone to Religion X.

Apologies to followers of 'Religion X,' if such a thing exists.

Kids need structure and discipline and routine. If their parents follow a certain value system, kids are bound by it until they turn 18, at which time they are completely free to say, "You guys are full of shit" and pick their own path (and that of their children). /twocents

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Pie

About bloody time. Support an organization that inculcates hatred as a stated part of their mission? Give me a break!

Like all sweeping generalizations, the accuracy of your statement matches it's precision.

I checked their mission statement. It's one sentence. I quote it here and it's dependent elements.

Mission Statement

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.


Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.


Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent


Vision Statement

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

* Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;
* Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;
* Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;
* Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

The Boy Scouts of America BSA http://www.scouting.org

There is no inculcation of hatred. Trust me on this one.

Now, you may know individuals who are hateful and involved in Scouting. But to libel the organization the way you have is inaccurate, inflammatory, and inappropriate. I urge you to take up your grievances with the people about whom you have a complaint.

In the decades I have been involved in Scouting, hatred has NOT been a part of the program, not on an individual, patrol, troop or district basis. I have seen no evidence of hatred by Scouts, or leaders; no evidence, factual, circumstantial or apocryphal.

There *is* a policy in the organization at the highest levels that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a Boy Scout Leader. This is not inculcating hatred. An organization cannot hate. People hate. I imagine there are Scouters who hate, but tarring all Scouters this way would be as correct, soothing and fair as saying you, as an American, are an imperialist pig given America's foreign policy. Maybe it fits, but even if it does, it's not because of the policy, it's because of your individual qualities.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by BigV

There is no inculcation of hatred. Trust me on this one.
[snip]
There *is* a policy in the organization at the highest levels that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a Boy Scout Leader. This is not inculcating hatred.

I guess we disagree right here. If the Scouts say that a gay person is not "Morally Straight", then they are condemning an individual. In fact, an entire class of individuals. That opinion is most certainly transmitted to the youth they lead.

[Happy Monkey]

The official stance is that you're OK no matter what religious beliefs you have as long as a) it involves some sort of supernatural aspect, and b) you're not gay. Individual troops may have more restrictive views, especially Mormon troops, though perhaps not officially.