The Cellar Security proposal

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

where oh where oh where is tw?

Notice that Lookout123 refuses to deal with the basic fraud. Money is removed from the SS trust fund. No IOU is left. No interest is paid on that money.

Monies taken by the government to pay today's bills can be replaced in the SS Trust Fund with T-bills. IOW the government pays the SS Trust Fund interest on the confiscated (borrowed) money. All Social Security problems solved with no increased risk to the public AND with more money for Social Security. One reason why Lookout123 avoids this? No windfall profits to be made by stock brokers.

[lookout123]

No windfall profits to be made by stock brokers.

you ignorant SOB, have you even read my previous posts on the subject. it is the general opinion of most people in my field that a well designed and run Individual account system would make many of our clients less likely to invest additional $$ with us - thereby taking money OUT of our pockets, not putting more in.

ignoring the idea of paying back the IOU's? hardly. that is an option. if i've read correctly, that method would put the system back on track to remain solvent through the middle of this century. that would be good for anyone who plans on dieing before then. but let me ask you, how much do you trust the politicians not to raid the cookie jar? it hasn't worked up to this point.

have you read any of my posts describing the effects of only $100 month savings in a personal account of different types of funds? or is it just easier to ignore those real life scenarios and say i'm a stock broker so i must be a liar?

tell us, what specifically scares you about individual accounts? please give me specifics, not generalizations about MBA's, shiny shoe salesman, and mental midgets - tell us what exactly doesn't work, in regards to individual accounts?

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

you ignorant SOB, have you even read my previous posts on the subject. it is the general opinion of most people in my field that a well designed and run Individual account system would make many of our clients less likely to invest additional $$ with us - thereby taking money OUT of our pockets, not putting more in.

Ignorant SOB? Posting insults when caught lying again? Clearly your god would not approve.

Want people to invest more of their retirement income elsewhere? Lower the SS taxes. Reduce the number from about 15%. Simple solution without adding complex laws to an already bloated tax code. Just another solution that involes no financial advisors - ie stock brokers. Lookout123 could not recommend a simple solution that provides no profit.

Somehow we will divert SS money to the stock market - and stock brokers will get none of the business? Selling East River bridges again?

Need to fix Social Security? Make the government pay interest rates on the money taken from the Trust Funds. Just another simple solution that will not enrich stock brokers. Lookout123 does not like simple solutions. No profit. No wonder he posts insults. Honest logic from a stock broker?

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

tell us, what specifically scares you about individual accounts? please give me specifics, not generalizations about MBA's, shiny shoe salesman, and mental midgets - tell us what exactly doesn't work, in regards to individual accounts?

You want private investment. Its called Roth IRA. Its called 401K. Its called 403K. Plenty of private investment schemes already exist. Why would you advocate raiding the cookie jar? To fix SS? Even the president finally had to concede this private investment nonsense does nothing to fix SS.

Why more complex private investment schemes that only increase risk unnecessarily? Workers have a long list of private investment schemes they are suppose to be using. SS is the safety valve - a guaranteed nest egg - for those who failed in their private investment schemes. A problem the Wall Street Journal recently discussed in an article entitled "Theft From 401(k)s Is on the Rise". But Lookout123 pretends we depend only on SS for retirement. Therefore we must increase the ROI on SS money - increased risk be damned.

SS is the safety net - the one source of money not at risk - for good reason.

Plenty of private investment oppurtunities are available without complicating Social Security. Those shiny shoe MBAs hope we forget that little fact. Anything to get a piece of the Social Security money into their managed portfolios. Its called greed. Another reason for politicians to solicit legalized bribery money from grossly overpaid stockbrokers.

Calm down Lookout123. Your god does not approve of your routine half truth postings. A little confession rather than posting insults is good for your soul.

[lookout123]

wow - i see you once again typed a lot but didn't actually answer the question about what specific part of individual SS accounts scare you.

Somehow we will divert SS money to the stock market - and stock brokers will get none of the business?

Let me get this straight. you honestly think that if the government has all those$X00,000,000,000 to invest they are going to call lookout and say "hey lookout - could you buy 20,000 share of Intel?" give me a break tw.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

wow - i see you once again typed a lot but didn't actually answer the question about what specific part of individual SS accounts scare you.

Again Lookout123 spins nonsense. SS monies are taken by the government to solve cash flow problems (such as a war in Iraq). Instead the Trust Fund should be *repaid with interest*. All SS Trust Fund problems solved – no problem. Lookout123 must avoid this solution *repaid with interest* to keep spinning his half truths. I have no problem with a solution to SS. I have a problem getting Lookout123 to even acknowledge simple solutions that are contrary to his neo-con agenda.

What scares me? The propaganda that Lookout123 promotes. For example, a discussion of brokers on (I believe it was Bloomberg News) noted that bond traders would be harmed by the privatizing of SS contributions. But stock brokers would reap substantial rewards. Lookout123 instead lies by saying

a well designed and run Individual account system would make many of our clients less likely to invest additional $$ with us ...

Right. More money in the stock market and yet stock brokers would see less business? Only a student of Pravda and Gerhing (professional liars) would say that. These neo-con lies - just like lies that promoted the 'Pearl Harboring' of Iraq - scare me. Lookout123 has again posted propaganda - half truths – that private accounts would cause reduced business for stock brokers. Who, pray tell, could ever believe that lie. But then notice who makes that ‘reduced business’ claim.

If Lookout123 were honest, he would demand that government *repay with interest* the monies confiscated from the FAA, Highway, and Social Security Trust Funds. He completely avoids that discussion - as any good political propagandist must. There is no neo-con agenda for correcting this accounting fraud.

An honest Lookout123 would have first demanded that all monies taken from the Trust Funds be *repaid with interest*. Notice every post from Lookout123 completely avoids the concept. Neo-cons don’t want this fraud highlighted. Lookout123, et al have other agendas. What’s good for a neo-con is good for America?

[lookout123]

bruce - you've brought up some good points. i think those are very valid objections to the private accounts.

tw - you continue to be a self impressed asshat. accuse away. you have yet to ever answer a question i've asked of you. as long as you have everything figured out, i'm sure we'll all be ok.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

tw - you continue to be a self impressed asshat. accuse away. you have yet to ever answer a question i've asked of you. as long as you have everything figured out, i'm sure we'll all be ok.

Ever since I reamed Lookout123 a new asshole with a simple question, he is now playing this game of "you don't answer my questions - boo hoo hoo".

Never forget the very first question someone was accused of avoiding. Lookout123 - when will we go after bin Laden. He still will neither answer nor even acknowledge that question.

Latest expression that the neo-con and religious extremist Lookout123 must avoid: *repaid with interest*. As a good propagandist of the neo-cons, he must avoid the concept. *Repaid with interest* is not in the neo-con agenda. Therefore Lookout123 maybe is not permitted to discuss it? Interesting. Who does he work for? Is Lookout123 a paid neo-con spokeperson? Maybe he is told what he can and cannot discuss? *Repaid with interest* is not permitted. "When do we go after bin Laden" - he's not permitted to discuss that either?

[glatt]

TW, my default position on Bush is that he is not here to help the little guy. It's usually easy for me to see his angle in every move he makes, but I haven't figured it out this time with his proposals to change social security.

Why, in you opinion, is Bush proposing this change? Who is he trying to help here? What's his motivation? Do you really think his prime motivation is to support the stock broker lobby? I just don't understand why he is pushing for this, or how it's going to positively impact SS in any way.

[lookout123]

i don't know bush's reasoning (he hasn't checked in with me this week), but from what i can see, the current SS system needs to be overhauled. It was not intended to be a retirement plan, but a supplement. the problem is that they take a lot of money from you over your career and what they give back to you in retirement doesn't begin to approach the amount that would have been available if the exact same money had been invested in a conservative mix of equity and bond funds among other things.

that can clearly be seen by the numbers that i've put in earlier in the thread. Those funds are not exceptional, they are pretty run of the mill conservative money managers.

what i hear as the main objection is that people will make bad choices with their money and not have any SS to count on in retirement. I think i showed what one could expect to be able to draw out on a monthly basis even if the market collapsed and dropped by 50% - still a hell of a lot more than they are getting from the current system. from what i understand, the proposals are for their to be a limited number of investment choices, all fairly conservative - similar to what is currently found in most TSA's.

from that standpoint, the individual accounts would work. i don't know what the smoothest way to convert from the old system to the new system would be, but their must be some solution.

but instead of looking at how to make something work, we've got people like tw screaming in the wind how this too, is designed to screw the little people and only benefit people who know how to polish their shoes (as if that is a crime).

[glatt]

Originally Posted by lookout123

the individual accounts would work. i don't know what the smoothest way to convert from the old system to the new system would be, but their must be some solution.

Ah, the devil is in the details. But we have heard no details from anyone.

I fully believe that Social Security will not be around for me when I retire (I'm 38) unless something is done to fix it. I'm in favor of fixing it or eliminated it today before I pay another penny into it. If it's not fixed, somebody will be left holding the bag, and I don't want it to be me. I also believe that the "rate of return" for social security is miserable compared to virtually everything else, but since SS wasn't originally set up as an investment fund but rather as a pyramid scheme, it's not a fair comparison.

You sound very confident that a conversion away from the pyramid scheme to private accounts is possible, but I honestly don't see how. The amount of money we are talking about is staggering!

I've seen Bush do so many things that blatantly favored corporate America over the little guy that I simply don't trust him. He's not giving us the details of his plan. I don't agree with those who say he is dumb. You can usually see the twisted logic in what he does, but I don't see it here.

Maybe he realizes that US stocks are not doing so well as a result of his fiscal policies that he wants to give them this shot in the arm, and this is a form of corporate welfare. Maybe he's trying to please that enormous stock broker lobby. Maybe he's going to set up funds that only invest in companies owned by his friends.

I am very dubious that his "plan" would help Social Security (he even said it wouldn't) and I simply don't understand his motivation.

[lookout123]

Maybe he realizes that US stocks are not doing so well as a result of his fiscal policies that he wants to give them this shot in the arm,

actually they are doing very well. we are in an upward moving trend, certainly not a boom ,but that is ok. it takes time for people to be comfortable with equities again because of all the horror stories from 2000-2002. slow and steady is a much better situation than a runaway bull market anyway.

most of this is just cyclical and not easily swayed by the whims of a president. the market does what it does and that is all there is to it. the government can tweak it and make certain things more favorable, but there is always someplace inthe market to make solid returns.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by glatt

Why, in your opinion, is Bush proposing this change? Who is he trying to help here? What's his motivation?

If its done properly, the Republican Party stands to gain a lot of registered voters. The Democrats have been cynical and cavalier with SS. They taxed the working man disproportionately and pissed away the surplus. Letting people actually build a savings moves voters out of the Dem ranks. This GOP Congress is pretty sucky as well but over the long haul the Dems have been the bigger theives.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

Why, in you opinion, is Bush proposing this change? Who is he trying to help here? What's his motivation? Do you really think his prime motivation is to support the stock broker lobby? I just don't understand why he is pushing for this, or how it's going to positively impact SS in any way.

This question has been asked repeatedly in business discussion groups. There is no single reason. But one often mentioned is a neo-cons adversity to support programs such as Social Security. Their belief is that government should not be a social service. Social Security since its inception has been opposed by right wing extremists. The Neo-cons were not happy when Reagan raised the taxes on (contributions to) Social Security.

Private accounts is a first step to undermining a Trust Fund that does so much for the neo-cons strongest opponents - the poorer and more needy. The Trust Fund is the one and only retirement program that is guaranteed - no risk. It is only intended as partial support. Americans are expected to have other private retirement investments because SS was never intended to be enough to live on and stay out of poverty.

The original lie about private investment was that it would save Social Security. No one bought that lie. So the lie was recently changed. George Jr recently acknowledged that private investment accounts would not help nor save Social Security. IOW the neo-cons really never had a good reason for their SS 'reform'. So that we don't call them liars, they are now spinning private investments for other reasons. But the real reason they were promoting SS changes - step one to dismantling a program that is adverse to a neo-con political agenda

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

Why, in you opinion, is Bush proposing this change? Who is he trying to help here? What's his motivation? Do you really think his prime motivation is to support the stock broker lobby? I just don't understand why he is pushing for this, or how it's going to positively impact SS in any way.

1- An influx of $$$ into the market would push the whole market up just like when mutual funds became the thing to do. Money managers have a flow of money they have to buy something with, they’re bidding against each other, market prices rise, Bush’s buddys get richer.

2- When people buy this stock some of it will be issued by the companies rather than from someone that holds previously issued shares. That money flowing into the Board of Directors and CEO’s hot little hands will make Bush their God. Probably worth 4 gimmes(sp) per 18 holes for W.
I doubt if any of the money will be labeled “Not to be used for evil”.

Aside~~ I worry about the people below the “middle class”.
Some are not well educated. Some are unlucky. Some never have two nickels to rub together their whole lives.
It’s hard to preach the virtue of saving on a regular basis to people who are living hand to mouth.
Granted, some of them are living that way because of there own actions......carrying on a family tradition?
Many don’t even know what an IRA is and couldn’t or wouldn’t handle it anyway. Giving them the opportunity to direct their retirement plan is a joke. Probably a third of them would buy Amway.

Is this your problem? No. Should you be penalized from making a fortune because of them. No.
But you have other options for making your killing.
Don’t kill these people in the process....please.