Why are we vilified: US freedom, or US policies

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Are you asking about the hypocrisy of George W. Bush, or are you actually asking about "freedom"? I think by now that it should be apparent to all that Bushco's foreign policy adventures have nothing to do with the concept of "freedom," as defined by the founding fathers of this country and most philosophers.

[Kitsune]

I think by now that it should be apparent to all that Bushco's foreign policy adventures have nothing to do with the concept of "freedom," as defined by the founding fathers of this country and most philosophers.

Sure it does! We went into Iraq with the specific goal of removing a dictator we installed and allowing the people to vote, right? Its all about protecting our freedom by installing democracies around the world-- nobody could possibly lose from these actions which are ordained by a power above our founding fathers: God.

At least, thats what I've been told.

[iamthewalrus109]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

I think by now that it should be apparent to all that Bushco's foreign policy adventures have nothing to do with the concept of "freedom," as defined by the founding fathers of this country and most philosophers.

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Sure it does! We went into Iraq with the specific goal of removing a dictator we installed and allowing the people to vote, right? Its all about protecting our freedom by installing democracies around the world-- nobody could possibly lose from these actions which are ordained by a power above our founding fathers: God.

At least, thats what I've been told.

Unfortunately there seems to be problems with both reasonings. To Cat's comment, Bush's concept of freedom is completely entwined with Capitalistic fervor, not free trade, but ardent Western style capitalism. To Kitsune's point, who's God are we talking about. Judeo-Christian God of Calvin, Cromwell, etc. This doesn't work in comparision to the God of the Islamic world, one more vengeful and and less benevovlent then the God of Martin Luther King, Jr., George Bush, and Jimmy Carter. Some may argue its the same God, well if it is then there is a big disagreement as to it's nature and being. Yes the Founding Fathers gave homage to God in the creation of the institutions of this government, but did so in more of the manner of diesim, like Volataire and other contempories of the day, ie the 18th century. Accordingly, ramming American style democracy down the throats of other populations was never indended, and unecessary. As much as we wanted England out of our business, we should stay out of the Middle East's. If they want freedom, let them engender their own sense of freedom and national pride, let us stop exporting it, period. Furthermore, the invasion of Iraq was not solely for the "liberation" of the Iraqi people, but to disarm a supposed threat, not to bring democracy to its borders, this is a distortion. In addition, its better for non-combatant Iraqis to die in larger numbers for our freedom, then the American people for their own freedom, that is simply immoral. To consider Western style democracy as the only valid working model for this region is far fetched and presumptive.

To go back to the original intention of this thread, freedom, in the sense that it is being brandied around by George Bush, is of a corporate and economic sense, not one of self-deterimination, or one that is dictated by natural law. We were attacked for our policies, and freedom doesn't mean that we are free to extract what we please from where ever we please, because the Western world believes in free trade, and women's rights, and values only the secruity of those who refuse to fight for their own freedoms. Its an abomination that will get us all killed in the end. This country was based on an agrarian society, one which was forged from the hands of white, male, wealthy, landowners, who were loosing money to England, let's face it. But when they were free of the occupation, which amounted mostly to financial tyranny, they saw a chance to create a great society. Iraqis need to realize this on there own. Although many neo-cons flash around Japan as an example of the exportation of democracy, I feel the comparision is un-waranted and incorrect. In that case the emperor agreed to a formal surrender, and the conflict was much more brutal and dramatic, in that case they're entire society was basically destroyed, including the social infrastructure. In Iraq, Islam is part of the DNA and not ready to be removed from the strain yet. In the end our forces our over deployed and are vilified by millions. Is this what America has become. In the words of Richard Nixon: "Did we come all the way for this?"

-Walrus