1/26/2005: Hindu swastika

[mmmmbacon]

(edited to add this quote)

Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution?

Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being. How do you think Jews feel about that picture? People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened. It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being.

But you see, that's where you're wrong. It never stopped being a symbol of peace and well-being. It now has two meanings.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

How do you think Jews feel about that picture?

Quite honestly that is their problem, not the problem of the millions of hindus around the world who feel quite differently about it.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Please don't use the royals as an example for anything, it can only hurt your credibility.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened.

But by wanting to squash the feelings of a people who have been using that symbol for longer than a number of the countries in this world have existed, just because someone is offended by it, then you are exactly that.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

It's not diluting something to return it to the 5000 +/- meaning it has carried. Quite the opposite I believe.

And as to mixed messages, it's not sending a mixed message. A hindu walking around with a swastika around his neck as a talisman is only doing it for himself.

[mmmmbacon]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

But you see, that's where you're wrong. It never stopped being a symbol of peace and well-being. It now has two meanings.

(regarding Jews): Quite honestly that is their problem, not the problem of the millions of hindus around the world who feel quite differently about it.

Well, as you mentioned, it's probably had 5000 meanings in the past. What's important is, what does that symbol mean now, and to whom? Maybe you're right, that the millions of Hindus still use the swastika as a symbol of peace, even now. I honestly don't know. That would surprise the hell out of me though, if true.

But by wanting to squash the feelings of a people who have been using that symbol for longer than a number of the countries in this world have existed, just because someone is offended by it, then you are exactly that.

No, I'm objecting not because I'm afraid Jews will be offended by Hindus trying to reclaim this as a symbol of peace, but because to do so dishonors those who have died at the hands of a man wearing a swastika.

Actually, I'm objecting precisely because I want people to continue to be offended by the swastika. I want it to stand as a reminder of what we're all capable of if we allow ourselves, like the German people did, to become the tools of a tyrannical government in the service of slaughtering 'inferior' people. Genocide is happening right now, somewhere. Let people everywhere know what the swastika means - and it don't mean peace. Sorry, Hindus.

If anything, anyone who supports the Hindus here is more of a PC policeman than I am! You're more concerned with the cultural sensitivities of the Hindu and their symbol, than about a very important lesson in human history. Bottom line is, the swastika is about learning from our history and not condemning ourselves to repeat the mistakes of our past. Let's not lose that lesson just because Hindus say "it was our symbol first!" (besides, would anyone be surprised if they stole it from another culture?)

[YellowBolt]

There is a significant difference between the Nazi swastika and those used by the Asians.

But first, a little tidbit... the swastika, at least in Buddhist theology, is a symbol of purification and the state one reaches when enlightened. The Nazi's took that symbol and warped it into the genocide of all but their white/blonde/blue-eyed/etc super race. Quite unfortunate, really...

The biggest difference is that the Nazi swastika is rotated 45 degrees so that it looks kind of like a diamond. The traditional swastika is more square-like. You'll notice that the Canadian Swastika team uses the traditional alignment for the swastika.

[axlrosen]

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

Maybe you're right, that the millions of Hindus still use the swastika as a symbol of peace, even now. I honestly don't know. That would surprise the hell out of me though, if true.

I believe it is true, I've actually heard this before.

So, suppose the Nazis had used a cross, or a star of David, or a flag with stars and stripes as their symbol? Would it be wrong for Christians, Jews, or Americans to keep using that symbol that means so much to them?

I think of it this way. The swastika has been a symbol used by Hindus for thousands of years, and they didn't stop when the Nazis came along. But there's probably a lot of misunderstanding when non-Hindus see this, so my thinking is that they're trying to tell the world, hey, we use this symbol as well, and when we use it, it doesn't mean we want to kill anybody. Just to help clear up any miscommunication.

I think people can understand context more than you give them credit for. When they see a swastika spray-painted on a tombstone in Georgia, they know it means something a lot different than when it's formed from thousands of candles in India. Just like people know the difference when they hear the "N word" in a rap song vs. me walking down the street yelling it at black people.

Do you think that without swastikas, people will forget about the Holocaust?

[mmmmbacon]

Originally Posted by axlrosen

I believe it is true, I've actually heard this before.

So, suppose the Nazis had used a cross, or a star of David, or a flag with stars and stripes as their symbol? Would it be wrong for Christians, Jews, or Americans to keep using that symbol that means so much to them?

No, it wouldn't be wrong for them to keep using it. I have no problem with Hindus using the swastika for their own culturally relevant reasons. And if all this is is a campaign to clear up misunderstandings, I have no problem with that either, but that's not the way I read it.

In introducing this, Undertoad said:

I'm not sure I could be convinced that this is a symbol of luck and/or prosperity. I don't mind if the Hindus use it differently, but I don't expect them to change our culture's notion of what it is.

I agree. My objection is with the Hindus trying to change my notion of what the symbol means, if indeed that's what they're trying to do.

I think people can understand context more than you give them credit for. When they see a swastika spray-painted on a tombstone in Georgia, they know it means something a lot different than when it's formed from thousands of candles in India. Just like people know the difference when they hear the "N word" in a rap song vs. me walking down the street yelling it at black people.

Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough, but my issue here really isn't with how people will react to the Hindus, whether they are offended or whatever. It has to do with the symbol that the swastika has become, and the importance of the history it represents - a history that really transcends any one culture. The story of the Nazi swastika applies as much to Rwanda in the nineties or Manifest Destiny (as we cleared out those pesky Indians). If what the Hindus are trying to do is transform the swastika into a symbol of peace, I object to that because it renders impotent a powerful symbol of the kind of evil that propels common men and women to participate in the mass killing of a stigmatized group of people.

Do you think that without swastikas, people will forget about the Holocaust?

People will forget about the holocaust anyway, as the generations pass. It's human nature. That's why we need reminders. That's why we build museums and memorials, and teach this stuff to our kids, despite the difficulty of the questions they ask. My question to you (and I'm assuming you're not a Hindu) is, if you had to choose, would you want your kids to grow up thinking the swastika is a symbol of peace, or a symbol of genocide?

By the way, thank you for your thoughtful post.

[mitheral]

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

(edited to add this quote)
Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being. How do you think Jews feel about that picture? People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened. It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

But it only a symbol/reminder of the Nazis to the western world. For 700 million Hindus it's meaning is much different. Even if they never convince the rest of the world to use the swastika (I doubt we'll ever see that hockey team in Edmonton again) at least they can build awareness that the symbol has two meanings. That way the number of ignorant knee jerkers who see a swastika and start pointing and yelling Nazi will be reduced.

If the Nazis had chosen the cross would you be calling for every christian to stop using that symbol?

[i Love India]

Originally Posted by mitheral

But it only a symbol/reminder of the Nazis to the western world. For 700 million Hindus it's meaning is much different. Even if they never convince the rest of the world to use the swastika (I doubt we'll ever see that hockey team in Edmonton again) at least they can build awareness that the symbol has two meanings. That way the number of ignorant knee jerkers who see a swastika and start pointing and yelling Nazi will be reduced.

If the Nazis had chosen the cross would you be calling for every christian to stop using that symbol?

I completly agree with you. In hindi it is called a swastik and the Nazi took the symbol from Hinduism and used it in a bad very. In India and Hindus all over the world still use it. Why not, it is our relgious symbol. Just like the person before me said "If the Nazis had choosen the cross would you be calling for every christan to stop using that symbol?" The anwser is no you wouldn't because American's always think that they are right and they are the best. The fact is you are not. As a country, America, we need to start showing respect to all people around the world. And before you talk about something make sure you know what you are talking about because most people here don't even know the TRUE meaning of the swastik and just think it is a bad symbol. I am hindu and I use the symbol because its meaning has not changed for thousands of years and never will just because some dumb people used it in a bad way does not mean we bad! Thank you, that is all.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Welcome to the Cellar India.

most people here don't even know the TRUE meaning of the swastik and just think it is a bad symbol.

Uh ..have you read the thread? You know, the 29 posts that preceded yours.