Misleading statements on the war

[hot_pastrami]

I live in Utah, which is one of the most blatantly Republican states in the U.S. I have had many conversations with people in regards to this election, and I have come to some bleak conclusions. Too many are guilty of logical fallacies:

• Many people are protective of their political party, akin to a religion or a sports team. Such a person's political party (and elected members of it) is incapable of doing any wrong, and is deserving of boundless loyalty and faith, regardless of the party's actions. To such a person, their party of choice is completely unaccountable for its actions, and the actions of its elected members.
  
  
• Many people value material things (money) over human life, so long as the aforementioned human life doesn't belong to themselves or anyone they directly know. For instance, 1000+ dead soldiers and 13,000+ innocent Iraqi deaths is "not too many, really," but 5 cents more per gallon of gas is an outrage.
  
  
• Many people value safety over liberty.
  
  
• Many people trust the government blindly.

These are not the squakings of a card-carrying, life-long Democrat.... only a few years ago I described myself politically as "middle of the road, with Republican leanings." Today I wouldn't really call myself a Democrat precisely, it would be more accurate to say "anti-Republican." And the primary contributor to assigning me that label is our president.

I hope to find the middle of that road again some day, but our liberty, and the lives of many, are hanging in the balance on this election.

[xoxoxoBruce]

For instance, 1000+ dead soldiers and 13,000+ innocent Iraqi deaths is "not too many, really,"

43,220 US highway deaths, 18,209 US murders, the average American child will have watched 8,000 murders on television by the age of twelve. Is it surprising that people don't freak at the numbers from Iraq, especially the civilian (innocent??) numbers?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

43,220 US highway deaths, 18,209 US murders, the average American child will have watched 8,000 murders on television by the age of twelve. Is it surprising that people don't freak at the numbers from Iraq, especially the civilian (innocent??) numbers?

You have to take into account, as well, that many people don't believe innocents are being killed in any great numbers in Iraq. The child who was killed had a gun, the old woman who was killed was carrying a bomb. That's the mindset. And beyond that, "they're" not like "us." "They're" a people we really don't know much about from a foreign culture and with a strange religion. Xenophobia plays a large part here.

I have been talking with quite a few people in my neighborhood canvassing, and the staunch Republicans will always bring up the issue of a "steady hand at the helm" of the war. I don't see how anyone can consider George Jr.'s hand a steady one. It feels to me like we're all passengers at the mercy of a drunk driver who refuses to admit that he's had far too many and his judgement is severely impaired as he takes us all carreening down the highway. It seems to me that people are too afraid or too ignorant to admit something is seriously wrong here. Switzerland is looking better every day.

[Kitsune]

It seems to me that people are too afraid or too ignorant to admit something is seriously wrong here.

Maybe not fear, but the administration, the media, or the American public themselves has installed a very interesting piece of logic in a lot of people's heads: if you're questioning the war or the government, you don't support America/our troops/you support the terrorists. I think this has even been underlined in a not so direct way in the anti-Kerry ads in which the Vietnam vet says that nothing hurt our soldiers more than Kerry's testimony.

Originally Posted by Kitsune

It seems to me that people are too afraid or too ignorant to admit something is seriously wrong here.

Maybe not fear, but the administration, the media, or the American public themselves has installed a very interesting piece of logic in a lot of people's heads: if you're questioning the war or the government, you don't support America/our troops/you support the terrorists. I think this has even been underlined in a not so direct way in the anti-Kerry ads in which the Vietnam vet says that nothing hurt our soldiers more than Kerry's testimony.

It's actually very Orwellian. We have a country founded on the principle of dissent - dissent from a monarchy which was taxing us and using the colonies for its own ends without giving any heed to the people who lived here - and now suddenly it becomes "un-American" to question the acts of those in power. How very useful for those in power. "America, love it or leave it." George Jr. and his keepers would love nothing more than for everybody who disagrees with their self-serving and short-sighted actions to shut up and go away.

The protests against the war in Vietnam did not hurt our soldiers. They were killed or wounded by the Viet Cong, not college students in America's streets. The American people as a whole became disgusted by the endless sacrifice of our young men for no real purpose. Kerry's testimony helped to SAVE soldier's lives by bringing to a halt a senseless war that was not in the national interest of this country and its people, much less the Vietnamese.

The soldiers in the current war against Iraq are being hurt by the current administration more than anything. Bush went in for the wrong reasons, he lacked planning and foresight, and the Bush administration refuses to support the veterans who have fought. My friend who is a disabled Gulf War vet said that on his last visit to the local VA center there were 500 men assigned to each counselor. A significant proportion of the homeless people you see on the street are veterans. Bush is cutting funding for medical and social services left and right. He has no idea what it is to be a soldier or fight in a war. He uses the men and women of our military as if they were so many disposable toy soldiers, and then in a truely Machivellian maneuver, he accuses his opponent of being against the men and women who fight for our country. I have never ever seen members of the military as upset with a president as the ones I have spoken with recently here in this major military town near where I live.

[Skunks]

Originally Posted by hot_pastrami

• Many people are protective of their political party, akin to a religion or a sports team. Such a person's political party (and elected members of it) is incapable of doing any wrong, and is deserving of boundless loyalty and faith, regardless of the party's actions. To such a person, their party of choice is completely unaccountable for its actions, and the actions of its elected members.

I <a href="http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~gvidas/photos/outsideralph.jpg">went</a> to a <a href="http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~gvidas/photos/ralph1.jpg">Nader</a> talk the other night, and he specifically compared politics to sports. But he went the other way with it, bemoaning the fact that people don't treat politics like sports; in his analogy, sports fans know the statistics, the strategies, and the individual role of each component part of the team and the support group (coach, manager, etc) thereof. They're willing to criticize the people who do poorly, while still maintaining faith in the team as a whole beyond the bounds of rational man. Most people don't spend that much time on politics.

Just thought I'd tangent a wee bit.

[tw]

It gets depressing. I talk to strangers quiet regularly now because the US government has become so bad. Too often (ie last night) people don't even know what the Axis of Evil is. A few still insist that Saddam had conspired with bin Laden to attack the WTC. Moreso, most are Kerry supporters (which is contrary to what polls say). They don't even know facts. Most just feel George is bad. But its all about feelings - only feelings.

Debates are about emotion. I don't watch them. No reason to. No facts will be learned. I wait for the polls and responses. That says how people really think. Facts be damned. Who appeared to be a leader verses who lost his cool is more important. A pathetic way to judge people. And yet that is what so many do. It makes about as much logical sense as "stay the course".

First they get a feeling. Then wrap that feeling in summary and logical sounding opinions. I never understood this thinking. But then Hitler did which is why he was so phenomenally successful in Germany.