Beware of Toddler

[Kitsune]

James, no biting ever! 5 minutes on your bottom.

Curious -- why not "5 times [spanking] on your bottom"? I've noticed a really disturbing trend, lately, in which children get away with pretty much anything they want to in public and are simply, repeatedly told, "Sweetie, don't do that. Honey, that's not nice. Pumpkin, please don't do that, it hurts people's feelings," all while the behavior continues.

The physical intervention never happens, so the child continues the misbehavior. I have no children, so I can't offer any words of advice one way or another and maybe I'm only seeing the incidents in public where it is so annoying that I wish someone would finally take a hand to the brat. But I'm curious: does the absence of physical punishment make the child's behavior better or worse? Do children really learn to correct their behavior simply by being told? I've seen cases where the parents continue to use "baby speak" or "sweet talk" when attempting to discipline their children and I cannot ever see that working as a corrective action because the child will never see the parent as an adult or authority figure.

[Troubleshooter]

Lowe's makes an extra-duty paint stirrer that sees a small amount of alternative use.

Little Sidhe has a bit of a spiteful streak that comes out every now and then. She generally listens when I tell her not to do something as long as I use the right tone of voice. The paint stirrer *might* get used once in a month. I've found that by using it as infrequently as I do she knows exactly why I am reaching for it and curbs her current unacceptable behavior.

[perth]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

...the right tone of voice.

Man, that's most of the process isn't it? It almost doesn't matter what I say as long as he hears it in the "vengeful god" voice.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by perth

Man, that's most of the process isn't it? It almost doesn't matter what I say as long as he hears it in the "vengeful god" voice.

Which do you think will work better:

1) Dear Heart, that oven is very hot and will burn you...

2) NO! Followed by #1

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Which do you think will work better:

1) Dear Heart, that oven is very hot and will burn you...

2) NO! Followed by #1

Or, you could take my dad's approach which was basically (after you'd burned your hand):

"It's better not to do that in the first place"

I wonder if he invented the hangover cure of "Don't have so much to drink in the first place"

I have to say, though, when he said no size=7 or otherwise, we pretty much crapped ourselves.

[perth]

2 nice things about 5 minute time-outs:

1. It can be (and has been) done in a grocery store. You can do this just about anywhere.
2. I don't get approached by some childless busybody irate because I was hitting my child.

Again, consistency is key. If I have to give him a timeout in the middle of a restaurant, I will (though he does tend to cry and fuss, so out of consideration for other patrons, I take him outside or something to keep him from bothering them). So yeah, if you're consistent with punishment, it often gets to the point where the threat of punishment is enough, as in "James, keep it up and you're getting 5 minutes.". This is sometimes enough to put him back in line, which is really convenient in public situations. If not, well, he gets the 5 minutes.

How do I know this works? Last weekend I flew with him to Tucson and back. Both trips I was approached by total strangers wanting to tell me I had a very well-behaved kid. I *really* like that.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

James, no biting ever! 5 minutes on your bottom.

Curious -- why not "5 times [spanking] on your bottom"? I've noticed a really disturbing trend, lately, in which children get away with pretty much anything they want to in public and are simply, repeatedly told, "Sweetie, don't do that. Honey, that's not nice. Pumpkin, please don't do that, it hurts people's feelings," all while the behavior continues.

The physical intervention never happens, so the child continues the misbehavior. I have no children, so I can't offer any words of advice one way or another and maybe I'm only seeing the incidents in public where it is so annoying that I wish someone would finally take a hand to the brat. But I'm curious: does the absence of physical punishment make the child's behavior better or worse? Do children really learn to correct their behavior simply by being told? I've seen cases where the parents continue to use "baby speak" or "sweet talk" when attempting to discipline their children and I cannot ever see that working as a corrective action because the child will never see the parent as an adult or authority figure.

What I find disturbing are attitudes like "If you don't hit your kid, he's going to be a problem." Child discipline isn't as simple as either spanking or telling the kid. It's more about how you tell the kid, what happens if he continues after being told and his learning WHY the action was wrong. If you spank for everything the kid does wrong, he isn't going to learn WHY he shouldn't hit. He's just going to learn that if he hits, someone bigger is going to hit him. He won't hit anyone (unless Mom and Dad don't see it) but this is not the mindset I choose to encourage with my son. Make no mistake, there is no "baby speak" involved when Jamey is in trouble. Perth uses the vengeful god voice and I use the "Mom, is seriously upset with you right now" voice. And he listens.

When you don't spank consistently, you see problems with the kid's behavior, regardless, just like if I were to threaten time out to Jamey and never follow through, I would be setting a bad precedent. Parents that have the screaming kid through the store that don't seem to be effectively punishing the child, simply don't know what to do. Yes, my kid has misbehaved in public, but I don't sit there and continue to try and calm him down, nor do I whoop him with my hand. I take him aside and get really serious and tell him he had better stop or we are leaving and he won't get to watch Star Wars when we get home/play with his lightsaber/eat his leftover cookie/whatever, he will be sitting on his bottom. If he continues, I follow through. No matter what. I never make threats I am not willing to follow through on. I see parents do this (with spankings, time-outs, etc.) and that is where the discipline fails. Not in its form, but in it's consistency (or lack thereof). Children need some kind of structure in their lives...it makes me think of those parents who think the child can "decide" when he is ready to go to bed, etc. That's just not how it works. A 3 year old doesn't know what he needs. And when he is throwing a fit, spanking him to make him stop, purely for the benefit of the parent or nearby customers is not wise, IMHO. It teaches the child to obey authority no matter what the reasons are behind disapproval. I don't know about you guys, but I want my kid to have the ability to think for himself when he becomes an adult. Even if he does get smarter than Mom (which I am sure he will).

As for the people that are irritated with my child's misbehavior and find it in their place to judge my methods of discipline, they just have to deal. In my experience, it is usually those who don't have these experience who are quickest to make the judgement, because people who have children have either been through it or are going through it. No matter what method you use, childrearing isn't easy. But it is easy for someone to say "you oughtta whoop that kid's butt" if you have never had the experience of punishing your own child.

BTW, I am not saying that a spanking is absolutely wrong in all cases. Based on my situation and my kid, it just isn't the most effective for us, and certainly isn't worth it for either Jamey or me.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by case

As for the people that are irritated with my child's misbehavior and find it in their place to judge my methods of discipline, they just have to deal.

While it sounds like you're doing all the right things, I have to disagree with the statement above. I'm childless by choice--and gloriously happy about it. I don't think anyone else should have to suffer because of some kid's bad behavior, whether or not the parent has control of the situation. I've seen meals and a few weddings ruined by screaming children. I'm not saying it's the kid's or the parent's fault--afterall, kids will be kids. I just don't think you should subject other people to it unless there's absolutely no other way around it. Having kids is a choice in every sense of the word. If your choice is to have kids, great--but don't make others "deal" with your choice.

[Cyber Wolf]

Generally, I let parents be parents and I often find it doesn't help to give a parent a suggestion on how to handle their children, especially if it's a tense social setting (Jr's pitching a fit in public for reasons unknown and parent(s) is upset and embarrassed by the event, etc...) I am childless and have no current plans on having kids but that doesn't automatically disqualify me from knowing what various punishments can do to kids. I say that because I vividly remember my parents' punishment methods, what I did in (most) cases to deserve it and what I've learned as a result. My parents were of the Spanking Club, 'Belt, Switch and Hand' chapter. Looking back, I've realized that getting spanked for something not only told me that whatever I was getting spanked for was undesirable but it also taught me that doing said undesirable thing needed to be done with more tact (no, I had no idea what tact meant at that age, but that's what it was.)

One example: I REALLY hated peas as a kid. Refusing to eat peas was not a good thing, but hiding the peas in a papertowel behind furniture (where they were usually forgotten about until they developed a personality) was Undesirable. So I was punished for and stopped doing that, but came up with a better way to dispose of unwanted peas. I got really good at hiding food in my cheeks without it showing on the outside or showing when I spoke, practicing with M&Ms, peanuts, etc. So...dinner's over, run outside to play, dispose of peas behind the shrubs. Parents never knew, I was never punished for it. And all I knew at the time was I found a way to continue defeating The Peas without getting The Stick. In this case, spanking taught me to better hide the evidence

[Kitsune]

As for the people that are irritated with my child's misbehavior and find it in their place to judge my methods of discipline, they just have to deal.

I don't judge anyone's method of discipline unless it gets highly irritating and rude. The worst place: the movie theater, which caused local DVD sales and rentals to go through the roof because it became so bad. Although that has been remedied! I'm so very happy they opened an "adult-only" theater nearby, which shows the standard, wide-release movies (read: "not porn") but only allows 21 and up in. And they serve booze and unlimited popcorn. Oh, yes, it is bliss to not have to tolerate screaming infants and bawling children. Speaking of which, why do so many adults feel the need to take their 3 month old - 5 year old to a rated "R" movie?

"You know, children are much more quiet under water."

[perth]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Speaking of which, why do so many adults feel the need to take their 3 month old - 5 year old to a rated "R" movie?

Because they're retarded.

People are really incon-fucking-siderate these days, and I also find it irritating as hell when some hellspawn is screaming at the top of their lungs and the "parent" is doing either nothing, or mollycoddling the monster. As mentioned above, on the occasions when my son does it, the first thing I do is take him away so that he is bothering as few people as possible before disciplining him. Case does the same. I think she took issue with the statement below:

Curious -- why not "5 times [spanking] on your bottom"?

and that strikes a nerve with both of us, mostly because my drunken absentee father can't grasp the concept of alternatives to spanking and loudly voices his opinion whenever possible.

Point is, regardless of how you discipine a child, you need to be consistent with it. It's not only a waste of time to make idle threats, but damaging to the kid in the long run. If you tell your kid you're gonna put em in time out, FUCKING DO IT. At the grocery store, at a restaurant, wherever.

And yeah, a movie theatre is usually an inappropriate place for a young child. Exception: Finding Nemo (or some similar kid movie) at a matinee or early evening showing. You might as well expect that. Sometimes it happens.

I do wish they would put one of those 21 and up theatres here, it's a great solution to the problem, and all movies are better when you're getting tanked.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by perth

I do wish they would put one of those 21 and up theatres here, it's a great solution to the problem, and all movies are better when you're getting tanked.

I second that. Even us people with unruly screaming kids like to get away from the noise once in a while and drink our troubles away. :p

It suddenly struck me that several of the folks who choose not to have children and are happy with that choice are spending an awful lot of time in the <b>parenting</b> forum. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but it seems a little ironic...dontcha think??

(Don't make me start singing...you will regret it)

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

As for the people that are irritated with my child's misbehavior and find it in their place to judge my methods of discipline, they just have to deal.

I don't judge anyone's method of discipline unless it gets highly irritating and rude.

And rightly so, IMO. Nobody likes that.

The other day in Walgreens, there was this woman standing in line in front of me with her twin daughters, probably around 6 years old or so. One twin was quiet. The other was...not. The second twin was perpetually telling her mother how much she hated her and calling her mom a liar, while the mother just ignored her. I was pretty disgusted with it. When the mother turned around, she must have seen the involuntary look on my face, because she looked incredibly embarassed. I didn't know whether to pity the woman and her kid, or to just continue feeling disgusted. Disgust basically won out. This is the kind of thing that is truly out of line. I DO blame the mother for it. She allows it. As someone else in this thread said, the adult should be the one in control. It doesn't mean, however, that all children act like that, or all parents neglect to impose any form of discipline, if their kids aren't being spanked.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by garnet

While it sounds like you're doing all the right things, I have to disagree with the statement above. I'm childless by choice--and gloriously happy about it. I don't think anyone else should have to suffer because of some kid's bad behavior, whether or not the parent has control of the situation. I've seen meals and a few weddings ruined by screaming children. I'm not saying it's the kid's or the parent's fault--afterall, kids will be kids. I just don't think you should subject other people to it unless there's absolutely no other way around it. Having kids is a choice in every sense of the word. If your choice is to have kids, great--but don't make others "deal" with your choice.

If I am in public and my kid screeches at the top of his lungs, no, there is no way around it. I can't go back in time and make it not happen. Of course, since I know how to handle it, my kid doesn't do that very often. Yes, kids will be kids.

Not having kids is your choice just like having a kid was my choice. I never said that I thought kids should be free to run around ruining the lives of innocent, blissful, childless people. I stated my impatience for people who think they know how I need to discipline my child. I don't seem to have a problem with excessive misbehavior in Jamey, so the suffering of people around that have to hear a 3 year old throw a tantrum is pretty minimal.

[jane_says]

My plan was to stay out of this, but my plans seldom work. All I have to say is that I've been on both sides of this fence - childless by choice for a long time, and now I have two.
We all have to put up with things from other people we don't approve of or like. I just stood behind a guy at the grocery store who was quite ripe. It was gross, and made me uncomfortable, but Not My Business. There are people at work whose wardrobe I think is entirely hideous, and I don't want to see navels, ass cracks, or camel toes at my place of employment. As long as they're not making me dress that way, also Not My Business. Likewise, how anyone raises their kids is Not My Business. If they're not hitting me, damaging my property or causing traffic accidents, I turn my head. I'll raise my kids and let them raise theirs. I really don't have a choice, in reality, so it's one less thing to stress over. Accepting the things I can't change, and all that.