U.S. Helicopters filmed firing into crowd of civilians

[bluesdave]

TW, I agree 99% (maybe even 100%) with what you say - I was against the war from the start, and I think that Bush has the intelligence of a bacteria (that's probably not fair to bacteria), but what do you suggest the US do now? Continuing with their current policies is only going to continue to degrade the situation, but for the US to pull out of Iraq now would cause it to almost instantly collapse into a state of civil war. This would certainly not be fair to the Iraqi people, and how many innocent civilians would die then?

One possible solution would be for the US to hand over to the UN, but I'm sure the UN does not want the problem, and how many countries would be willing to contribute significant numbers of troops and military equipment to the cause (ie. to replace the US forces)? Very few. It is an absolute disaster, for which no one seems to have an answer. Also, any UN based force would be targeted just like the US troops are being now. What a mess.

[Pi]

I don't think that a UN mission would be a failture. There are always countries like Pakistan or India, wanting to participate in a UN mission. And don't forget that the ROE of Un are stricter than those of the US Army. So there won't be any bloddy helicopter attacks. Or maybe it's gonna be a second Somalia...

[bluesdave]

Originally Posted by Pi

There are always countries like Pakistan or India, wanting to participate in a UN mission.

That is all well and good, but for a UN mission to have any chance of working it would mean the complete replacement of US troops by UN troops. That is a *lot* of people. They can't afford to leave US troops there because they will continue to be targets. I'm pretty sure that UN troops will be targeted too, at least initially, because the radicals want all outsiders out of the country.

On a related thought - can you imagine Pakistani and Indian troops working peacefully together? That would be something to see!

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

... but what do you suggest the US do now? Continuing with their current policies is only going to continue to degrade the situation, but for the US to pull out of Iraq now would cause it to almost instantly collapse into a state of civil war. This would certainly not be fair to the Iraqi people, and how many innocent civilians would die then?

Iraq is but a short distance from total anarchy. If total control does break down, then substantial Iraqis might be killed in a civil war. Ironcially a civil war that may or may not result in a democracy. Why? Because the only way to impose a democracy is to have the locals impose it on themselves. Great expense such as massive loss of life may be necessary to prove to themselves that they really wanted that type of government. But the bottom line, only the fools in America think we can impose democracy on another country. Democracy must be earned - just another one of those lessons from history.

Colin Powell - one of the few in this administration that is not an ideologue - said it best. "You break it, then you own it". Well we now own it.

Listen to the BBC world service today. The man on the street does not believe America came to liberate him or to fix his economy. They believe America came only to get Saddam and to steal the oil. Furthermore, they believe (and rightly so) that everything now said by Americans is propaganda or outright lies. In that part, they would be right because this president is lying to everyone about Iraq - then and now. For example, how many foreigners are now kidnapped in Iraq. The US government fears you might realize the number is 220. They want you to believe reliable electricity and water is provided. The US governement fears you might learn that of more than 2000 construction projects, only about 10 are actually in progress. The nation is that unsafe for everyone. The George Jr administration cannot be honest about how bad security has become; worse than the day Rumsfeld said looting does not exist.

Americans have little credibility. If Ayatolla Sistani dies, so does any hope of American involvement. We are that close to losing the entire country. Furthermore, why do the world and UN refuse to cooperate? George Jr puts very stiff conditions on all foreign assistance. They all must do only what America demands. So stiff are these conditions that some in the world believe America wants to control Iraq.

The US even demands money to rebuild Iraq that is more than the entire budget for aid to African nations. This for a nation chock full of oil?

The Iraqi solution starts with America admitting to major mistakes by our government. Then completely passing control of Iraq and US military operations to a world body. Of course this will not happen. Review some 'veins hanging from teeth' responses even in The Cellar. And yet, the only way to rescue a slowly deteriorating situation is to conceded control - in a big and obvious way - to an honest third party power. Yes that means even Russia and China have major voices. Without those two nations fully involved, then the third party will not be honest. That means the US must remain in country and not have a veto power over how things will be accomplished.

We have broken it, in part, because the extremist Vulcans believed nation building is something wrong - something that Clinton does. Made painfully obvious is the purpose of war. To put the conflict back on the negotiation table. Instead we *again* (just like in Desert Storm) threw away a military victory by having no plans - none at all - nada - zippo - for how the peace would be implemented. Again, listen to the BBC today. The man in the Iraqi street most often believes we came to Iraq for the oil. We had no 'after action' plans - none - which is essential to ending a military operation. Again a lesson repeatedly taught by history. That means we cannot fix the country. We must remove the George Jr restrictions so that international assistance - people who would have credibility in Iraq - can start fixing the problem. That means we cannot fix Iraq with George Jr as president.

Getting credible powers into Iraq is not a total solution. But no solution is possible with George Jr in power and without third power cooperation. The problem is solvable now with third power operations - having honest brokers replace Americans and the 7000 mile screwdriver. But if things get worse, then a third power (an international solution) would not even be possible. If Iraq gets substantially worse (and it will if America continues this way), then only civil war will be the solution. One need only learn from the lessons of history. No one can impose democracy on another nation - no matter what Rice and Wolfowitz indoctrinated into George Jr.