Forum changes, your thoughts

[Undertoad]

Bout time to change things around again and confuse everyone.

We now have people -- too many, imo -- posting images into the image of the day. Doesn't bother me but maybe it would be better to just have a forum that's truly one image per day, one that we can all submit to and vote on and stuff. I have put off working on a submission queue for images because I've always wanted to write something that would automatically post the next pending image at midnight. That's hard to do because vBulletin noses into a lot of tables when it posts.

So I figure I'll be more motivated to write a submission queue thingie if I just forget about the autopost for the time. I'll just post things from the submission queue manually.

I imagine what we could have would be an "images" section, with IotD, "Other Images" for stuff that people want to post outside of the IotD queue, and if he is willing, NBN's Photoshop section. This changes the rules by having a moderated forum outside of the user-hosted bits. As long as NBN doesn't mind I don't mind. I do think the PS forum will get progressively more popular.

Then, after some time it appears there aren't enough of we "locals" to keep the Philadelphia section going, so maybe the best way is to remove the "Cities" section, and move the "Other Cities" into the main area and just call it "Cities". Nic proposed this originally, and at the time I moaned that the system is moving away from the local Philly scene, but this looks like how it's intended to be anyway.

Does all that sound good?

I agree about the IotD (if you recall, I felt very weird about posting there in the first place because it's always been a sacred part to me - and even when I do start a thread there, I try to stick to your naming conventions). I don't mind seeing the images, but they kind of detract from the whole "Image of the Day" thing. I think we should break it down like

Images -> Image of the Day, as selected by Undertoad
          -> User-submitted
          -> Photoshops

Now, this kinda detracts from my ability to put images in the Image of the Day forum, as I have been known to do from time to time. But that's alright, I guess, 'cause I can always stick 'em in user-submitted.

I'm not sure I really dig the idea of voting on images and whatnot. But I'm not really sure that I'm against it, either. It could go either way, I guess. I see it as being a pain in the ass to implement and work with, but it might also be cool to get the "good" images voted up. Doesn't really matter to me simply because I read every post on the Cellar anyway. But I know some people don't. So whatever, I guess.

Cities is a good idea. One forum in the Main section with cities underneath it. However, I can see there being a problem wherein duplicate unpopular cities get listed - i.e., someone creates one for Des Moines, no one posts to it for a while, it's off the display by default, and another one gets created later. Can we make it so that, by default, all forums ever created are displayed there? It's kinda hard to work the whole "Cities" thing anyway, but it's here and we oughta adapt. I dunno. You tell me.

[verbatim]

I always enjoyed when just Tony posted IotDs. But I have one objection to Dave's system, I liked having an "Image of the Day" link right on the root page. Just cause it was only one click away, as opposed to waiting for 2 pages to load. Just my 2 cents.

Hmm. We're kinda missing what I'm saying. Have an Images <b>section</b>, not a forum. That way, IotD Photoshops and "User submitted" would all still be on the front page. That was my idea, anyway. I don't think they work as individual threads...

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad
..and at the time I moaned that the system is moving away from the local Philly scene, but this looks like how it's intended to be anyway.

It's an unavoidable consequence of the new access economics. When the Cellar was a dial-up BBS, it took a certain amount of cost (which was distance-sensitive) and technical effort to participate, people would be careful with how they used their online time, and uploads were even more difficult. Now access is available to anyone who's on the net and has nothing else to do...and that and vBulletin have largely commoditized the place. Now the traffic seems dominated by photoshopping and personal blogs ("I got up this morning. I went to work. Now I'm at work. I'll be going home soon. Work sucks.")

There was almost no response to the proposal of a GTG, which shows you how different the New Cellar has become. It *is* a shame, because I liked the Old Cellar, which had a much stronger sense of community. But there really is no reasonable way of going back.

As for something being on "the first page", I seldom spend any time on the first page; I always go right to the "view new messages" link, which shows me where the activity is.

[elSicomoro]

Sounds like a good plan Tony.

As far as the images, the voting sounds interesting and may be worth a shot. Wouldn't that eat up a lot of space for you though?

At the same time, you pick great images, and so I am warm to Dave's idea as well.

Moving Philadelphia into the cities forum as a whole--good idea. As far as possible duplicate posting, perhaps a reminder could be put on the cities main page, instructing people to use the timeframe option at the bottom. Or...expand that page to show posts from the past 90 days instead of 30?

Change is inevitable. Some are more resistant to it than others. But in the end, I would say that change is more positive than negative. In the year I've been here, I would say as a whole, that the changes I've seen have made the Cellar better.

[Nic Name]

Cities would be better in the Main. At the beginning of this test, I didn't think the idea of a single thread per city was the way to go, given the example of Philadephia at that time with several threads ... but now that has reduced to one interesting Philly thread called "cheesesteaks". That thread could be renamed Philly and moved into the Cities forum alongside the others.

Based on the experience with Other Cities, I think that a single thread per city, with the thread named after a single city each is the most interesting and easiest to maintain during the 30 day time frame. It also provides a "backgrounder" for newbies to catch up on the dialogue that is lost with several threads dropping off. This is particularly important in Cities, which discloses the "characters" of the members and fosters community.

Photoshop Phrenzy! should be in the Main, whoever moderates it. That would clue folks in that "shopped" images belong there ... not in IotD.

IotD should be allowed to evlove in accordance with the "philosophy" that UT has espoused. I have observed that UT's posts are always marked as such with a date, and that other member's posts have been undated. I think the greater number of sources, and the opportunity for active participation in IotD, accounts for the attraction of the community. To revert to restricting IotD to Tony's Image of the Day would be a step back in the natural development of the communty, imo. But that's where, Tony can make it his forum if he wants ... it's just counter to everything I've heard him say since I got here. It would be good if members got the idea that IotD is a place for special impact images, regardless of which members source them. Having other obvious places for other images, like photoshops and photojournals will keep IotD true to it's potential.

Not to pic on anyone ... but to mention some recent examples to clarify these thoughts ... datalas' image of the creek would have made an excellent start to Roslin to get us talking about Scotland, as we all did in IotD. A great image, to be sure, but a misplaced image and a missed opportunity to start a great thread that would have lasted longer in Cities than in IotD. The same with NBN's great images of Port Aransas regarding Spring Break. Many of the other threads in the Cellar will have greater appeal in there own rights, if images are posted elsewhere in the Cellar besides IotD.

Images not "worthy" of IotD will quietly fall off the front page in 30 days, if they do not attract discussion and are not of interest to the members.

Voting on threads was diss cussed back when I suggested it, and now I find I agree with the views expressed by those who had been here longer. On the other hand ... with all the appeal of Survivor and The Weakest Link ... there may be merit in a convention by which a thread could be "closed" on the indication of a number of members that closure was in order ... either because the post was "rotten" or the "thread" had gone bad by unappealing discourse, such as major digressions off-topic or ranting or flaming and ad hominem attacks.

On a postive note:

Images could be encouraged in 3 distinct forums IotD, Photoshop Phrenzy! and Caption it! (similar to http://www.captionmachine.com/)

IMHO the images in the Cellar need some creative direction, not restriction.

Or, I could be wrong about all this ... agin.

[Nothing But Net]

I always liked UT's images the best, anyway.

Maybe create a sub-category 'Images'? In it you have:

1) IotD, with only UT starting threads. It's what brings most people to the Cellar on a regular basis, and he's been doing a great job so far.

2) An area for user-submitted images where anyone can post, but possibly based on themes (landscapes, people, etc.) so every new image doesn't require a new thread. Also require that they be ORIGINAL images, not something from somewhere else on the 'net. Voting is OK too, and actually might make the 'theme' concept function better, but I'm not sure how that would work.

3) Photoshop Phrenzy! And hey, folks, I'm always looking for new ideas for that forum.

More or less what dham' said.

Whatever you decide is OK with me, Tony.

- 03#

[Nic Name]

I think people are attracted and a community is engaged by more opportunities to participate, rather than fewer.

If the observation is too many people posting to IotD, then provide other attractive options for them to post images.

If the observation is just too many people ... then don't invite others by text advertising on popular forums.

Maybe UT's original post in this thread could be unclear to some of our new members, in that it might imply that there are too many people, when he might mean something else entirely.

And if Cellar advertizes on Fark, it is probably a good idea to make it obvious and clear where and how Photoshop Phrenzy! works in the Cellar. I thought NBN was very creative in his approach for that forum, where a member would post an unmodified image to be photoshopped by the members. And this would be more appreciated in the Main.

[jaguar]

maggie, what is GTG?
There is still a pretty strong sense of community here, more than other place i've found on the web, and more open. Not to mention a wide range of (inteligent)opinions. Tony's plan sounds good, but Nic Name has a very good point. I agree with syc, cellar has got better, and the audiance has expanded. I've vacciliating between wondering whether it'd be better to have a premanant record of member status similar to titles, but not titles (i liek changing mine time to time) and doing our best to make sure there is no differenciation. Fark this is like an enlightened lord of the flies on the net.

[Undertoad]

So... no clear consensus! That frees me up to do whatever the hell I want! Ha ha!

Nic, the only problem with everyone posting images to IotD is that it dilutes the impact to the community of the daily image. We have an odd situation in that cellar.org/i points to that forum and we have a large number of visitors who browse the IotD without browsing the rest of the system.

Democratizing the IotD with a submission queue and voting system would be the best way to encourage usage while retaining the special nature of the section. Um, I think.

Sometimes people send me images for IotD, which I appreciate; and if there was a submission queue, perhaps more people would be tempted to send images along. That in turn would improve the quality of images (having more eyes to find them). Whaddya think?

[Nic Name]

The challenge for IotD is quality and impact, not quantity.

I really think that creative changes to move Photoshipe Phrenzy! into the Main, and perhaps another Caption IT! forum for potentially humorous images, would provide alternatives that would naturally improve the quality of IotD.

If IotD were a "one a day" image selected by UT, there would be less "reward" for repeat visits during the day.

Some awesome images have been posted by others:

Is this Art? by Muse with 33 replies and 1413 page views;
Tug vs. Bridge by Slithy Tove with 45 replies and 3387 page views;
Israelis, Palestinians and Death by dhamsaic with 38 comments and 1833 page views;
Desert by Nic Name with 8 replies and 1147 page views;
Columbia Dawn by blowmeetheclown with 8 replies 1172 page views;
(that awesome fighter) first post ... by spirit with 11 replies and 1233 page views, although its title could have been better.

In fact, my two favorite IotD were posted by other members:

Freehand Mountain by dhamsaic
city lights by Joe

both of which have made it to my desktop background.

I emailed Frozen Auto for you to post, but I don't think I would have been "on the lookout" for images with impact like that if email were the only way to get images of this quality on the thread.

There would far less incentive to submit for consideration than directly post and get immediate feeback. See http://www.dailyimage.com/about.cfm How lame is that?

I'll concur with others that your posts to IotD are more often than not "images that blow my mind -- every day" but sometimes they just blow. (e.g. Bob Vole ... ha ha but not an IotD unless it's under my desk: would have made a great Caption IT! opportunity.) (Defense spending over time?) (Snowfall across US?) (Pearl the dog gets hives?) No doubt there will be others who would defend these as some of your best posts. I'll try not to suck up! :p

I guess the point is, as you would have said to me a month ago, that although yours is often the best judgment, it isn't the only view, and the Cellar has a way of evolving by design rather than by imposition of rules.

The broader the community grows, the less likely it will be that any one person's view of what makes an IotD will hit a common chord with the larger audience. The unique advantage of the Cellar over alternative sites is its participatory democracy, and the potential for more than one image every day that will blow our minds.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by jaguar
what is GTG?

A get-together. One of the Cellar's early gatherings made it into a book. A year ago, it wouldn't have been hard to do. Now, it would need to be a week-long convention.

[Nic Name]

... as in a family get-together

When Maggie speaks of the Cellar as a stronger community in the past, it may be the intimacy of family rather than strength of community that she recalls nostalgically.

As a relative newcomer to the Cellar, I see that original family alive within this community.

But there is no doubt in my mind that the Cellar is a stronger and more vibrant community than ever.

[Undertoad]

Well that's the thing, see. I can only choose images that blow my mind and that I *think* will have a similar impact on everyone else. If I have everyone else's input, then if the forum is crappy it's everyone's fault.