U.S. Helicopters filmed firing into crowd of civilians

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by 404Error

Like Bruce said, telling the difference between combatants and civilians is difficult, if not impossible. They don't wear uniforms like our troops do and it's well known that these insurgents, or whatever you want to call them, will hide behind civilians and pop up just long enough to fire off an RPG or fire a few rounds at our troops.

Originally Posted by lookout123

BS - who is saying these were all innocent civilians? why would innocent civilians who want nothing to do with a fight be milling about a disabled US bradley? those we are fighting wear the same clothes as the civilians and have shown a willingness to put women and children in front of them in the hopes that the US wouldn't fire on women and children.

Oh ok.... the helicopter pilots made a surprise attack on a crowd of people in a residential area just in case some of them were insurgents. With tactics like that, particularly when they are intentional, it's no wonder the reistance in Iraq grows daily. Having a loved one killed on their way to work because they made the mistake of walking down a street where damaged US equipment had been sitting for a few hours-- that will brew some powerful, justified hatred.

I agree with and understand the fact that we can't leave partially damaged military hardware sitting around for the enemy to pilfer. That's not the issue. The fact is that the pilots made no effort to clear the scene of innocent civilians before opening up. These people bleeding in the streets (look for heading "Civilians Killed As Dawn Battle Erupts In Baghdad") are the same people we "saved" from Saddam, and here we are blowing them up unnecessarily, and without warning. Even circling once or twice before firing would have probably done the trick. What is it, exactly, we have liberated these people from?

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by hot_pastrami

The fact is that the pilots made no effort to clear the scene of innocent civilians before opening up. These people bleeding in the streets (look for heading "Civilians Killed As Dawn Battle Erupts In Baghdad") are the same people we "saved" from Saddam, and here we are blowing them up unnecessarily, and without warning. Even circling once or twice before firing would have probably done the trick. What is it, exactly, we have liberated these people from?

here is the thing - we weren't there. we don't know how or why things went down the way the did. we are relying on the reporting that is made available to us. each person has an agenda.

did the pilots just wake up and decide they were going to wack some innocents today? maybe, but it doesn't sound like the actions of any of the pilots i know or have known.

was there some type of warning given that we aren't aware of? we have no way of knowing.

would circling a couple of times opened the helicopters up to rpg fire? we have no way of knowing.

were the people milling around the disabled bradley, on a street involved in a battle really innocent civilians? we don't know.

what i do know is that professional soldiers don't get off on killing people for no good reason. i know that it is a career ender to be found guilty of firing inappropriately. i know that most soldiers do their best to help people, not go out of their way to harm them needlessly. that is my starting point for looking at all incoming information. so i run what little info we have through my life's experiences and come up with the conclusion that A) we don't know all the details so passing judgement is inappropriate B) we will never know al the details unless you speak first hand with people that were on the ground and in the air and take multiple views into account. that won't happen because the military is not going to give interviews. bad shit happens in battle.


each person's experiences will cause them to look at the same info and come to a different conclusion. if your starting point is that gwb started the Iraq war as a neocon adventure and the military is full of incompetence and they have completely lost control of the situation, it would be easy to see the incoming info and decide that these were obviously innocent civilians minding their own business before they were ambushed and killed by a helicopter attack.

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by lookout123

here is the thing - we weren't there. we don't know how or why things went down the way the did. we are relying on the reporting that is made available to us. each person has an agenda.

The whole point of the thread is that this time, it was caught on film. Any viewer can see that the people milling about had NO visible weapons. They DID NOT fire at the helicopters when they appeared. Unless you want to try to leverage an absurd argument that tape is digitally altered with special effects, then we DO know these facts to be true. We DO know there was no warning from the U.S. helicopters. We don't have to ask anybody, we can see it for ourselves.

Tell me if you disagree with this statement, and if so, why?: In a residential area, when no weapons are visible, and there is no incoming fire... the crowd must be assumed to be comprised of civilians, and every effort should be made to disperse them before firing until/unless a threat is encountered.

I don't think the problem is that soldiers have a blood lust... I don't think they are motivated by hatred to murder innocent people. It's just a passive disregard for human life, and a war policy which supports that. This is evidenced by the filmed attack, many other unnecessary civilian casualties, the infamous prison photos, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

"If they appear to be Musilims, blow them up, because they might be enemies! Remember, today's survivor is tomorrow's insurgent, so leave none alive!"

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by lookout123

what i do know is that professional soldiers don't get off on killing people for no good reason.

Nah, they get off on sexually abusing and humiliating prisoners.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Cyber Wolf

Nah, they get off on sexually abusing and humiliating prisoners.

I love how people can take the actions of a few people and apply it to a whole group and justify what they generalize to that group as true. These people are in an incredibly stressful environment and you can do is criticize them all for the mistakes of a few. So.. how about you just shut the hell up and give these guys a little respect that they deserve. They are dealing with things that I pray to God that you and I will never have to endure, so the least you can do is not subjigate them to you're unfair generalizations and unneccessary attacks.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

These people are in an incredibly stressful environment and you can do is criticize them all for the mistakes of a few.

They are not really critical of soldiers. The soldiers are in this mess directly due to top management. A situation that will not improve under this administration.

How to support the troops. Eliminate their biggest problem. A president that refuses to provide troops with a workable strategic objective, an exit strategy, or a political solution. What is a soldier suppose to do when the president even lies about this as being a 'war on terror'. Hell. I don't see Al Qaeda or bin Landen in Iraq. What I do see are many people who resent American occupation for good reason. Soldiers placed in a classic 'no win' situation.

Please show me 1+ years after this unilateral invasion - where have things gotten better. Violence and death have increased. Eliminate the myths such as UT's Rape Rooms, WMDs, and aluminum tubes. We are left with an Iraq that will continue to worsen as long as America remains militaristic and intransigent. Ie. solving problems with helicopters and missiles. Support the troops. Given them a leader who actually has a brain instead of an agenda. Unfortunately, just like in Nam, the military becomes a victim of the president's personal agenda.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

I love how people can take the actions of a few people and apply it to a whole group and justify what they generalize to that group as true. These people are in an incredibly stressful environment and you can do is criticize them all for the mistakes of a few. So.. how about you just shut the hell up and give these guys a little respect that they deserve. They are dealing with things that I pray to God that you and I will never have to endure, so the least you can do is not subjigate them to you're unfair generalizations and unneccessary attacks.

Yeah, don't you just hate that? I hate that too! I hate it when people take one morsel of information and blow it out of proportion. Makes my skin crawl! It would appear the little rolleyes icon totally slipped by you. Maybe I should have used this one instead? If I had said "SOME of them get off on sexually abusing and humiliating prisoners" would you have felt better? It'd be more accurate, I suppose.

I do give the Boys and Girls the respect they deserve when they deserve it. I have plenty of military in my family so I'm huzzahing for them and their companies left and right. Respect is given where respect is due and frankly, it's not due for all of them. Wouldn't wanna be in their place, of course, but that's a different can o' beans.