Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

09-08-2004, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

actually i don't believe that colorado is any different than the rest of the country. i wasn't suggesting that you move to another area for a better chance at a federal program. if you thought that is what i was saying then you missed the whole point. moving wouldn't help you. changing location for better work opportunities won't help a person who isn't working where they already are.

Well, make up your mind. Here's what you originally wrote:

" but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available."

What point am I missing?
__________________

lookout123 · 09-08-2004, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

Well, make up your mind. Here's what you originally wrote:

" but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available."

What point am I missing?
__________________

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

garnet · 09-08-2004, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

Did she choose to have disabling health problems too?

09-09-2004, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

Excuse me:
Reality - SSDI income $625.00/month
Reality - food stamps $140.00/month
Reality - housing voucher indefinate waiting list of two years or more

YOU are the one who refuses to see any reality other than your own, because you would be forced to re-exam your system of beliefs and move out of your little comfort zone.

I did not choose to breath in a deadly gas for 5 years. I attempted to prevent such an event by installing a CO detector in my home. It was faulty and malfunctioned. I had no way of knowing this.

If I state that I now have difficulties performing things that I once did without even thinking twice about them, this is not "bitching and moaning." It is a statement of fact.

You do not know what I am going through right now, precisely because I choose NOT to bitch and moan about it. You do not know about the therapy I am undergoing. You do not know what I am attempting through voc-rehab and on my own.

It seems to me that when I corner you on some point, you fall back on labeling me a "victim." Well, whatever helps you get through the night. I'm tired of attempting to defend myself to people with closed minds and zero medical knowledge. I have better things to do.

Cyber Wolf · 09-09-2004, 06:58 AM

What seems to be the problem here is that neither side of this particular battle is really seeing (or trying to see) the other side. There are lots of truths and facts being presented to validate either side's case, but there's also truth in the fact that the whole set up is entirely subjective. The American Dream is an abstract concept and can't be tied down with reality, facts and truths, mainly because it's different for so many people. There's a lot of argument about what the Dream means or has meant to you as individuals but for several it seems the Dream can't mean anything else but that.

Let's say John Q Public starts out in a poor, low-down neighboorhood, drops out of high school and eventually ekes his way into a bag boy job at the local grocery store down the street, making $6/hr, $12,160-ish per year. If all he wants is to bring home enough cash to help support his family so they all can live a little easier, who can chide him for that? How much he pays in taxes is irrelevant. Whether or not he can pick up all and move far away to possibly get $7/hr bagging groceries is irrelevant. And whether or not he should is irrelevant too. If he's happy doing what he's doing, he's realized the American Dream. The same can be said if John started off in a wealthy family, finished grad school and started a business.

Of course, not everyone would be happy and settle with a $6/hr job or owning a startup business. And not everyone is going to move past that. The American Dream is about being able to pursue happiness in whatever it is you do. It doesn't matter if what you want to do is provide a supplemental income or start a business or wrangle the money markets and live off your inheritance. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a monetary line where happiness begins. Poverty != unhappiness, and great wealth != happiness. Just because one person, or a group of people, refuses be happy making less than $XXX a year doesn't mean someone else or another group of people has to be unhappy as well.

lookout123 · 09-09-2004, 09:09 AM

cyber wolf, that is what you said a page or 2 back and i think most people understood and accepted that as a very good explanation. the "dream" is different for everyone. we all have a shot at our dream.

the debate moved from being about that, to being more mari's about paranoid, victimized view of the world. but i still agree with you cyber wolf about what the dream is.

ladysycamore · 09-09-2004, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

Reality, eh? YOUR reality isn't HER'S nor is it mine. Are you on disability? Are you dealing with a chronic illness? Are you finding it hard to find work because of your schedule of various doctors appointments, etc.? I suspect the answer is no. So what if she bitches and moans about her situation...you know nothing about how she lives because you do not live it. I have a small idea of what she is *feeling* because it's a goddamned bitch trying to work with a system that doesn't seem to be willing to help you out and trying to make adjustments in order to live a halfway normal life.

Quote:

money doesn't equal happiness.

Speak for yourself. I certainly wouldn't mind a lot of extra cash right now. It certainly would make things more "happier" for me. I'm not even gonna lie...

09-09-2004, 12:42 PM

(SIGH!) Okay, folks. I really was not interested in making this some discussion about me or my disability. The following is NOT whining; it's since you all asked. And I am NEVER going to write about this stuff again; in the future I will refer anyone who wonders to this post.

My long term memory which includes my years of education and professional training are intact, so are my verbal skills. These things are hard-wired in, so to speak. What I have difficulty with is my short term memory, my ability to concentrate, my spatial memory, and worst of all, I have gone what I call "blind" to time. My 15 minutes is your two hours. I have lost what psychologists call my executive function which is my ability to make a plan and take the steps to see it through to completion.

The posts that I write are seldom longer than a page, and usually consist of a couple of paragraphs. This writing reflects my old intact skills. I use the fact that I can go back down and refer to what everybody else has written as an aid to my memory so that I can respond in context to what has already been written. I cannot sustain writing something that goes much beyond three pages. It is too much for me. I get distract, go off and do something else and forget what I was trying to write.

Difficulty with spatial memory does not mean that I cannot drive the streets of my home town. That's an old memory. My short term memory is not that I forget that I'm at a red light or that a car is on my left hand side. I am aware of these things, but that short term awareness does not get stored into my long term memory anymore. When I get home, I could not describe the details of my drive to you.

When I am in an unfamiliar place, I often become lost. On this last trip (which it took me literally 4 days to pack my car for), I became lost 4 or 5 or 6 times. Once I was lost for an entire day on a maze of back roads. Lucky for me I had just filled my gas tank before that happened. I carry a book of 15 minute quads of the state and I also have an inexpensive GPS unit to help me figure out my coordinates. Despite the GPS and maps, I was still completely baffled as to where I was. When I wrote of my adventure on the Ute res in another thread, I had to stop because it was dark, I had been routed onto an unfamiliar road, and I had lost my bearings. I drove around northern New Mexico that night until 2:00 am when I finally lucked upon a small town I remembered from the old days and was able to get back on the right road. My friends have learned not to get too concerned about me if I don't show up when I'm supposed to. "Oh, how long we're you lost for this time?" they'll joke. I will also sometimes experience several minutes or more of complete blankout as to where I am. I'll be driving down the road and suddenly realize that NOTHING looks familiar and I don't know where I'm going. At such times I have to pull off the road and just sit quietly for a while until I become re-oriented. These are scarey experiences, and I am quick to pull over to the side of the road and get out of other driver's way when they happen to me.

Loss of spatial memory also means that I do not remember new faces. I can talk to someone I have been newly introduced to for an hour and the next day pass them on the street without knowing who they are. It takes me at least 4 or5 encounters with someone before I can begin to recognize them as someone I know. For example, when I first moved into where I now live, my landlord came to my door one day and I had no idea who he was even though we'd spent an hour or more talking only the week before. That's scarey and makes me fearful of new people because I always feel they know something that I don't.

Clodfobble, you are very quick to judge. The reason why I get so little from SSDI is that I refused to apply for disability for a long time after this happened to me. I considered going on disability to be a personal defeat. I attempted jobs as a gardener, a janitor, a dishwasher, ANYTHING to earn some money. In every single case I was fired from every job I attempted for being too slow and because of my difficulties with arriving on time. My short term memory lost manifests itself as an inability to rember what I should be doing - I "ping" from thing to thing and never get back to my original task. Does your city have those people who sell flowers on street corners? Well, mine does, and I tried that, too. I stood on the corners of my city's street holding out carnations to passing drivers. To keep my spirits up, I would play that song by Jewel, "Hands" on my cheap little boombox...

"My hands are small, I know; but they're not yours, they are my own and I am never broken...I won't be made useless. I won't be idled by despair. I've given myself to my faith. Its light the darkness most fears..."

Don't you DARE tell me I think I'm too good to attempt menial work. Don't judge a person before you've walked in their shoes.

I could go on, but I would think that the above should be sufficient. If you still want to judge me. Go ahead.

glatt · 09-09-2004, 01:00 PM

Mari, thanks for sharing that information. It's none of my business, but I'm curious. What's your situation now? You don't seem to be camping anymore. Where do you live? Is someone helping you? How do you have internet access? At a library? Again, it's none of our business, but I'm curious.
Thanks.

09-09-2004, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

Mari, thanks for sharing that information. It's none of my business, but I'm curious. What's your situation now? You don't seem to be camping anymore. Where do you live? Is someone helping you? How do you have internet access? At a library? Again, it's none of our business, but I'm curious.
Thanks.

I was finally awarded my SSDI and got a back payment last June. In addition, my story appeared in a local paper and a retired Air Force Colonel who had been a professor of Russian history at the US Air Force Academy stepped forward with a very generous offer of financial help which allowed me to pay the rent on the cottage I now live in through next Feburary. The money from SSDI allowed me to replace my battered lap top with a new computer and I have a phone which I get a small discount on the bill for. I get dial-up access to the net through AOL. I just keep putting in new disks with the free offers of hours. I am very concerned about what my situation will be next Feburary if I have not recieved a housing voucher by then. I pray a lot.

And, BTW, I bet there won't be another word written in this thread by Brianna, Clodfobble, Lookout and anyone else who just were dying to turn this thread into their own little spam fest against me. It really makes me angry that what started out as an impersonal political debate had to degenerate into what it did, and then have the people who turned it personal slink off without another word. I can understand why people might be confused about my situation, but if I'm not writing about myself why do they insist that I do? I shouldn't allow myself to become upset over a few cyber strangers, but I am. People are soooooo STUPID! On one hand they say I appear intelligent and on the other they say I'm faking it. Well, if I'm so smart and I was lying, wouldn't I dumb down my posts and play the role of the popular image of a brain injured person? Like: itz werrie hard forr mee tooo tipe now *(3 my hans don werlk rite 86 and eye ferget n whut i wuz sayin..."

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Just had to add that. Sorry, but I now have anger problems along with my other difficulties

09-09-2004, 06:58 AM	#5
Cyber Wolf As stable as a ring of PU-239 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: On a huge rock covered in water, highly advanced moss and 7 billion parasites Posts: 1,264	What seems to be the problem here is that neither side of this particular battle is really seeing (or trying to see) the other side. There are lots of truths and facts being presented to validate either side's case, but there's also truth in the fact that the whole set up is entirely subjective. The American Dream is an abstract concept and can't be tied down with reality, facts and truths, mainly because it's different for so many people. There's a lot of argument about what the Dream means or has meant to you as individuals but for several it seems the Dream can't mean anything else but that. Let's say John Q Public starts out in a poor, low-down neighboorhood, drops out of high school and eventually ekes his way into a bag boy job at the local grocery store down the street, making $6/hr, $12,160-ish per year. If all he wants is to bring home enough cash to help support his family so they all can live a little easier, who can chide him for that? How much he pays in taxes is irrelevant. Whether or not he can pick up all and move far away to possibly get $7/hr bagging groceries is irrelevant. And whether or not he should is irrelevant too. If he's happy doing what he's doing, he's realized the American Dream. The same can be said if John started off in a wealthy family, finished grad school and started a business. Of course, not everyone would be happy and settle with a $6/hr job or owning a startup business. And not everyone is going to move past that. The American Dream is about being able to pursue happiness in whatever it is you do. It doesn't matter if what you want to do is provide a supplemental income or start a business or wrangle the money markets and live off your inheritance. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a monetary line where happiness begins. Poverty != unhappiness, and great wealth != happiness. Just because one person, or a group of people, refuses be happy making less than $XXX a year doesn't mean someone else or another group of people has to be unhappy as well. __________________ "I don't see what's so triffic about creating people as people and then getting' upset 'cos they act like people." ~Adam Young, Good Omens "I don't see why it matters what is written. Not when it's about people. It can always be crossed out." ~Adam Young, Good Omens

09-09-2004, 09:09 AM	#6
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	cyber wolf, that is what you said a page or 2 back and i think most people understood and accepted that as a very good explanation. the "dream" is different for everyone. we all have a shot at our dream. the debate moved from being about that, to being more mari's about paranoid, victimized view of the world. but i still agree with you cyber wolf about what the dream is. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin Last edited by lookout123; 09-09-2004 at 09:39 AM.

09-09-2004, 12:42 PM	#8
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	(SIGH!) Okay, folks. I really was not interested in making this some discussion about me or my disability. The following is NOT whining; it's since you all asked. And I am NEVER going to write about this stuff again; in the future I will refer anyone who wonders to this post. My long term memory which includes my years of education and professional training are intact, so are my verbal skills. These things are hard-wired in, so to speak. What I have difficulty with is my short term memory, my ability to concentrate, my spatial memory, and worst of all, I have gone what I call "blind" to time. My 15 minutes is your two hours. I have lost what psychologists call my executive function which is my ability to make a plan and take the steps to see it through to completion. The posts that I write are seldom longer than a page, and usually consist of a couple of paragraphs. This writing reflects my old intact skills. I use the fact that I can go back down and refer to what everybody else has written as an aid to my memory so that I can respond in context to what has already been written. I cannot sustain writing something that goes much beyond three pages. It is too much for me. I get distract, go off and do something else and forget what I was trying to write. Difficulty with spatial memory does not mean that I cannot drive the streets of my home town. That's an old memory. My short term memory is not that I forget that I'm at a red light or that a car is on my left hand side. I am aware of these things, but that short term awareness does not get stored into my long term memory anymore. When I get home, I could not describe the details of my drive to you. When I am in an unfamiliar place, I often become lost. On this last trip (which it took me literally 4 days to pack my car for), I became lost 4 or 5 or 6 times. Once I was lost for an entire day on a maze of back roads. Lucky for me I had just filled my gas tank before that happened. I carry a book of 15 minute quads of the state and I also have an inexpensive GPS unit to help me figure out my coordinates. Despite the GPS and maps, I was still completely baffled as to where I was. When I wrote of my adventure on the Ute res in another thread, I had to stop because it was dark, I had been routed onto an unfamiliar road, and I had lost my bearings. I drove around northern New Mexico that night until 2:00 am when I finally lucked upon a small town I remembered from the old days and was able to get back on the right road. My friends have learned not to get too concerned about me if I don't show up when I'm supposed to. "Oh, how long we're you lost for this time?" they'll joke. I will also sometimes experience several minutes or more of complete blankout as to where I am. I'll be driving down the road and suddenly realize that NOTHING looks familiar and I don't know where I'm going. At such times I have to pull off the road and just sit quietly for a while until I become re-oriented. These are scarey experiences, and I am quick to pull over to the side of the road and get out of other driver's way when they happen to me. Loss of spatial memory also means that I do not remember new faces. I can talk to someone I have been newly introduced to for an hour and the next day pass them on the street without knowing who they are. It takes me at least 4 or5 encounters with someone before I can begin to recognize them as someone I know. For example, when I first moved into where I now live, my landlord came to my door one day and I had no idea who he was even though we'd spent an hour or more talking only the week before. That's scarey and makes me fearful of new people because I always feel they know something that I don't. Clodfobble, you are very quick to judge. The reason why I get so little from SSDI is that I refused to apply for disability for a long time after this happened to me. I considered going on disability to be a personal defeat. I attempted jobs as a gardener, a janitor, a dishwasher, ANYTHING to earn some money. In every single case I was fired from every job I attempted for being too slow and because of my difficulties with arriving on time. My short term memory lost manifests itself as an inability to rember what I should be doing - I "ping" from thing to thing and never get back to my original task. Does your city have those people who sell flowers on street corners? Well, mine does, and I tried that, too. I stood on the corners of my city's street holding out carnations to passing drivers. To keep my spirits up, I would play that song by Jewel, "Hands" on my cheap little boombox... "My hands are small, I know; but they're not yours, they are my own and I am never broken...I won't be made useless. I won't be idled by despair. I've given myself to my faith. Its light the darkness most fears..." Don't you DARE tell me I think I'm too good to attempt menial work. Don't judge a person before you've walked in their shoes. I could go on, but I would think that the above should be sufficient. If you still want to judge me. Go ahead.

09-09-2004, 01:00 PM	#9
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Mari, thanks for sharing that information. It's none of my business, but I'm curious. What's your situation now? You don't seem to be camping anymore. Where do you live? Is someone helping you? How do you have internet access? At a library? Again, it's none of our business, but I'm curious. Thanks.

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