You can tuna fish, but you can't tune a piano

[Slartibartfast]

I've been playing piano for only about a year now, so I'm very much a novice in music theory. One thing I have recently become interested in is how musical instruments are tuned. By this I don't mean the mechanics of tuning, but rather the thinking and math that goes on behind the scenes of making notes sound in harmony with each other.

Every piano in the world is out of tune. Not only that, it is impossible to ever tune them perfectly to begin with. This isn't breaking news to people in music, but it is strange to someone just learning about it.

It has something to do with the fact that the notes in an octave can't be all in tune in relation to each other all at the same time. If one interval is tuned perfectly, another interval must be made more out of tune. The numbers don't divide evenly, so a 'remainder' has to end up somewhere. Modern instruments have this remainder divided up evenly so that all harmonies are slightly out of tune, but there are other ways of tuning an instrument so that some intervals are more in harmony than others.

If, for example, a piece by Mozart is played on a modernly tuned piano, something is lost in the translation because he wrote the music for an instrument that was tuned differently. At least, that's what I've read. I have a cd with a piece by Mozart played twice. Both times on the same piano, only tuned differently each time. I've listened to it several times and I can't tell the difference. I'm not even sure what I am listening for, the effect must be very subtle.

With a piano, someone has to go through the work of retuning all the keys, so changing the temperament from one methodology to another is not an easy thing. But a keyboard should be able to do this with the flip of a switch, since the sound is synthesized electronically. My $300 Yamaha doesn't do this, can anyone with a real keyboard tell me if theirs can? SM, if you're around, what is your take on all this? Is temperament just ivory tower music theory, or do real musicians care about this stuff?

[smoothmoniker]

oh man oh man oh man.

I've got a stack of shit to plow through today, but i promise I'll hit this thread later this weekend.

-sm

[Clodfobble]

Meanwhile, we can all ponder how many piano tuners there are in Chicago...

I asked your question to my friend who plays classical guitar on a professional basis. Here is his reply verbatim. "You have to develop an ear for the tuning. You might want to actually take a tuning lesson if this concerns you. However, music is an experience not an analysis. Although analysis is a part -it's only a part - get too hung up on analysis and you loose out on the experience which may be why you are unable to pick up the difference in the two recordings. Listen more with your feelings rather than your mind. If you are bent on analysis, look up Pythagoras and find the error, but once you see that, you still are left with the music. Play it."

[wolf]

There are 88 keys and no quite three times as many strings (without looking it up I'll guess two and a half).

The richness of a piano's tone comes from the harmonics (overtones) generated when a particular key is struck.

Strike a key and listen.

Then find a way (having several friends over helps) to dampen ALL the strings except the ones for that particular key. Now strike it.

Very different.

There is also a difference in tone when you dampen some of the extra strings on the mid-range keys.

As far as I know you can't really reproduce these effects on an electronic keyboard.

Man, I miss having a piano.

[Slartibartfast]

Marichico, your friend makes sense. I understand it is more important to enjoy the music than it is to figure it out, or else why bother listening to or playing it in the first place? Let me draw a comparison to watching a movie. Most of the times I watch a movie, I don't look at how it is put together, I just go to have a good time. But sometimes I get the urge to look closely at the lighting, the framing of the shot, the props, the background music, the pacing, and all the other little things that are pieced together to make the whole. I find that doing this is fun. Not all the time, just on occasion.

Tuning just happens to be a nuance I've gotten stuck on right now. Its kind of funny because the one example I have demonstrating it shows me I can't really notice it yet. But then again, it took me a while to consciously hear the difference between a semitone and a whole tone (I don't know how hard it is for other people, I might have wooden ears). Does it help me appreciate music better? Maybe not a whole lot, but it might, and it's a good listening exercise.

Wolf, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying to take the two or three strings hit by a piano key, dampen all but the one to be struck, and then seeing what it sounds like? I'll give it a try, but what do I use to block the hammer from hitting the string? I've never played with the insides of my piano, and I don't want to damage anything.

(incidentally Wolf, do you know what a wolf is in musical terms? It has everything to do with tuning.)

[Undertoad]

Y'know all this stuff gets much worse on guitar, where not only is every string tuned, it's intonated, sometimes to the right length; and every fret is layed down semi-permanently; and the whole thing responds to moisture and heat and etc; and the tuners are often cheap and don't hold a tuning well.

So sometimes - maybe a lot of times, if you have a good ear - you'll come across a guitar and play one chord, and it sounds just awesome; and then play another chord, and it sounds like total crap.

As for me, I'm playing fretless bass on one song right now for an audition next week, so I won't have ANY of those tuning problems ----

---- I know for absolute certain that no note I play will be in tune with anything else.

[Clodfobble]

Slarti, what wolf is describing (I think) is the resonance of the other strings. That is, you purposely strike one key, and the string vibrates--but those vibrations in the air also cause the strings around it to vibrate slightly as well, even though you didn't hit their keys. Dampen all the other strings so they can't start vibrating on their own, and the overall sound you hear is very different.

I played the viola for about 7 years--like the guitar, the note of each string can also be played on the lower strings by holding the fingertips down higher along the fingerboard. One of the ways you tested your instrument's tuning was to play the note on a lower string, and if you'd done your job right, the open string of the same note would start vibrating very strongly on its own.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Marichico, your friend makes sense. I understand it is more important to enjoy the music than it is to figure it out, or else why bother listening to or playing it in the first place? Let me draw a comparison to watching a movie. Most of the times I watch a movie, I don't look at how it is put together, I just go to have a good time. But sometimes I get the urge to look closely at the lighting, the framing of the shot, the props, the background music, the pacing, and all the other little things that are pieced together to make the whole. I find that doing this is fun. Not all the time, just on occasion.

Tuning just happens to be a nuance I've gotten stuck on right now. Its kind of funny because the one example I have demonstrating it shows me I can't really notice it yet. But then again, it took me a while to consciously hear the difference between a semitone and a whole tone (I don't know how hard it is for other people, I might have wooden ears). Does it help me appreciate music better? Maybe not a whole lot, but it might, and it's a good listening exercise.

I think my friend is different than many classical musicians you might encounter. He is incredibly good, but he does not have a formal education in music theory. He attends the Master's Class for classical guitar each summer in Aspen, but the rest of the time he works on his music on his own. Music to him is simply second nature and very intuitive. He will attack a Bach lute suite (and talk about differences in tuning, etc.!) and work on it alone until he has it right. I think he is one of those people who can look at a sheet of music and "hear" it before he ever even plays it. At any rate, when he finally performs whatever piece he is currently working on, it sounds absolutely "right." When I first met him, he would come over to my house and start playing and I'd think the music was coming from the radio or a CD, but it was him! I love music and feel incredibly lucky to have encountered such a person and call him friend.

We lesser mortals who don't "think in music" - he says he does, and I believe him - have to fall back on music theory, etc.

PS He just wandered in and advised you further to become aware of the sound waves. He said tuning is like going out to a still pond and tossing a stone in and watching the waves. Then toss the same sized stone in the identical spot and make the waves match up. That's what tuning an instrument is like he says.

[Elspode]

So strange is this problem on a guitar, that differently fretted instruments are produced to make up for this inherent problem...

http://www.btinternet.com/~steve.sed...Pythagorus.htm

http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/fr...toGallery.html

I have a $2k Martin HD 28, the instrument I have desired my entire guitar playing life, and it still suffers from the inability to have any given note on the neck be exactly the same as the same note somewhere else on the neck. I even go to the extent of tuning my low E string differently for songs that use predominant Em themes (highly prevalent in Pagan and traditional music) and songs that use predominant G major themes. Basically, if you tune the low E so that it sounds right with an Em or E maj chord, it sounds out of tune when you play a G rooted chord, and vice-versa.

Nothing wrong with the instrument, it is just how they are made. The links above show a couple of different approaches to addressing this issue, with the most radical being the "fanned fret" approach of Mr. Novax. Fascinating.

Yeah, that looks to me like exactly what my friend was talking about, Patrick. Its funny how he'll just toss in stuff like the Pythagorem theorem as if its application to music was just common knowledge. Music is his food and air, and he doesn't seem to understand that the rest of us have nowhere near his understanding of it.

[Slartibartfast]

Patrick sounds like a natural. Rock on!

Elspode, that first link mentions what I started off talking about, only in terms of a guitar rather than a piano, very cool stuff! Here is one that talks piano: http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/

Pythagoras' tuning method, like many others until recently, had a built in dissonance - a wolf. It was when you played E flat and G sharp. Calling it a wolf makes for a great turn of phrase. Musicians had to avoid the wolf when playing music. A good musician could also intentionally use the wolf to throw some excitement into the music. ( Our wolf makes for a lot of excitement around here, but she's in tune )

Equal temperament, which is how instruments are tuned today, has no wolves to avoid - the dissonance has been spread evenly across all intervals. But this is at the cost of having everything be slightly out of tune.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Slarti, what wolf is describing (I think) is the resonance of the other strings. That is, you purposely strike one key, and the string vibrates--but those vibrations in the air also cause the strings around it to vibrate slightly as well, even though you didn't hit their keys. Dampen all the other strings so they can't start vibrating on their own, and the overall sound you hear is very different.

I''m not sure Clodfobble. On a piano, all the strings have a damper on them to begin. When you strike a key, the damper on those strings alone rises to let them vibrate. As soon as you let a key go, the damper comes down again.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I played the viola for about 7 years--like the guitar, the note of each string can also be played on the lower strings by holding the fingertips down higher along the fingerboard. One of the ways you tested your instrument's tuning was to play the note on a lower string, and if you'd done your job right, the open string of the same note would start vibrating very strongly on its own.

This sounds like the other string is resonating because it has the frequency of the first, do I have this right?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Yeah, that looks to me like exactly what my friend was talking about, Patrick. Its funny how he'll just toss in stuff like the Pythagorem theorem as if its application to music was just common knowledge. Music is his food and air, and he doesn't seem to understand that the rest of us have nowhere near his understanding of it.

Boeing's Rose Bowl Parade float was about Pythagorus and his relationship to music and space. I guess a lot of people are aware, at least musicians.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Boeing's Rose Bowl Parade float was about Pythagorus and his relationship to music and space. I guess a lot of people are aware, at least musicians.

Well, I don't watch TV, so I missed the rose bowl parade, and I am neither a mathematician nor a musician, so up until I met Mike, while I knew mathematics had certain correlations with music, I didn't know about the Pythagorian thing. My knowledge of Pythagorus ended with the theorem. Maybe my education was woefully lacking in that regard. I was actually rather surprised when Mike mentioned it since he never attended college and claims that all he did in high school was play guitar and drop acid. Shows how little I know sometimes, and how much more other people do.