Interesting graphs and charts department

[henry quirk]

"But I don't want to go back to horses, been there done that, so roads is a must."

We have an extensive road network. You think all that disappears cuz a town, a city, a region, a state, a nation goes minarchistic?

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"Fire protection is a real good idea, nice to have your house saved when your neighbor's burns down."

Sure, but does it have to be provided by gov?

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"Unemployment insurance saved my ass once, that was welcome. Over the years I paid more in than I got out, but I'm OK with that."

Why can't UI be private?

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"Social Security? If we get rid of that a lot of old people would die and the roads less crowded."

Oh, gettin' rid of it now would be a royal pain. it's part of the weave of things. If such a thing had never been introduced, folks woulda never have come to rely on it. First step: lettin' folks opt out of it. SS is makin' with the death rattle already. An opt out would cover the current crop of recipients while telegraphin' to would-be recipients SS has a finite shelf life.

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"Universal healthcare would bring the costs way down without beating up the doctors and nurses who actually take care of us. The health insurance companies would be the losers, but serves them right for driving the price up. The same thing is happening with pet health insurance, they're driving the costs up so less people will take a chance on not having it on Fido and Pussy."

Insurance shouldn't be mandatory for anything. Costs should be dynamic, determined by that old austrian debbil 'supply & demand'. And: it's not 'health care', it's medical care; it's service like any other, not a 'right'.

I've been uninsured since the ACA was laid down and I've had 'issues'. I shopped around and pinched my pennies like I do buyin' anything.

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"Limited room & board? I don't want to see people dying or even fainting in the streets, holds up traffic you know."

Get thee to a charity, Bruce.

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"Free college? I don't like it"

Sumthin' we agree on.

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"Room and board for all, good grief, that has never worked anywhere unless you're royalty. Peel me a grape. "

Agreed. Down on your luck? Associated Catholic Charities can help. They won't prosthelytize (too much).

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"Shouldn't that be servitute, not serveitute?"

Take it up with Cato (or Brutus).

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"But I don't want to go back to horses, been there done that, so roads is a must."

We have an extensive road network. You think all that disappears cuz a town, a city, a region, a state, a nation goes minarchistic?

Yes, I've seen roads in PA and NJ deteriorate in 3 months so they weren't passable at more than 25 mph.

"Fire protection is a real good idea, nice to have your house saved when your neighbor's burns down."

Sure, but does it have to be provided by gov?

Who's going to do it? I grew up with a town volunteer Fire Department who put out many grass fires around houses that burned down. It structure fires seconds count is not just a slogan. The fire department usually has an ambulance with full time EMTs. Much faster than Uber to the hospital.

"Unemployment insurance saved my ass once, that was welcome. Over the years I paid more in than I got out, but I'm OK with that."

Why can't UI be private?

Because it becomes too fucking expensive when only a few are in it, without adding the profit margin. You know, that little item every business needs to continue.

"Social Security? If we get rid of that a lot of old people would die and the roads less crowded."

Oh, gettin' rid of it now would be a royal pain. it's part of the weave of things. If such a thing had never been introduced, folks woulda never have come to rely on it. First step: lettin' folks opt out of it. SS is makin' with the death rattle already. An opt out would cover the current crop of recipients while telegraphin' to would-be recipients SS has a finite shelf life.

Right, they wouldn't come to rely on it, they'd just die like they used to.

"Universal healthcare would bring the costs way down without beating up the doctors and nurses who actually take care of us. The health insurance companies would be the losers, but serves them right for driving the price up. The same thing is happening with pet health insurance, they're driving the costs up so less people will take a chance on not having it on Fido and Pussy."

Insurance shouldn't be mandatory for anything. Costs should be dynamic, determined by that old austrian debbil 'supply & demand'. And: it's not 'health care', it's medical care; it's service like any other, not a 'right'.

I've been uninsured since the ACA was laid down and I've had 'issues'. I shopped around and pinched my pennies like I do buyin' anything.

Fine when you boy is running 106 fever send out for bids.

"Limited room & board? I don't want to see people dying or even fainting in the streets, holds up traffic you know."

Get thee to a charity, Bruce.

I don't need a charity but where do these people who do find one? thousands of people on the streets because they've no place to go. I'm not even counting the ones who prefer the street to shelters because it's safer.

"Free college? I don't like it"

Sumthin' we agree on.

I'll bet for different reasons.

"Room and board for all, good grief, that has never worked anywhere unless you're royalty. Peel me a grape. "

Agreed. Down on your luck? Associated Catholic Charities can help. They won't prosthelytize (too much).

OK, I googled Associated Catholic Charities. It gives me Baltimore and NYC as a footnote.
Sure is a passel of folks not close to those spots.

"Shouldn't that be servitute, not serveitute?"

Take it up with Cato (or Brutus).

Cato or Brutus didn't write it, you did. That's why I asked you.
The internet says you're wrong but that's OK, you are used to being wrong.

[henry quirk]

"I've seen roads in PA and NJ deteriorate in 3 months so they weren't passable at more than 25 mph."

Here in S Louisiana the roads are terrible: terrible with gov oversight.

I'm thinkin' folks might do a better job of it w/out incompetent pols & greedy contracters.

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"grew up with a town volunteer Fire Department who put out many grass fires around houses that burned down."

Made my point for me: thanks.

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"The fire department usually has an ambulance with full time EMTs

Here, we got Acadian Ambulance. Privately owned. We seem to get along just fine w/out the gov in this area.

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"Because it becomes too fucking expensive when only a few are in it"

Again: you make my point. If folks, in large numbers want sumthin' (like unimployment ins) then the market (other folks) will provide. If so few folks actually want it that it has to be mandated, by technocrats with lent power, to 'be', well: you get my drift.

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"Right, they wouldn't come to rely on it, they'd just die like they used to."

Think it through: if you know your golden years are all on you then, mebbe, you make an effort to provide for those golden years when you're younger, you know, the way lots of folks do 'now' even with SS existin'.

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"Fine when you boy is running 106 fever send out for bids."

Think it through: I've already done my homework. When he had an 'issue' I took him where the treatment was available and the reasonable, and 'I' paid the bill, not taxpayers.

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"I don't need a charity but where do these people who do find one?"

On-line, phone book, a church, city hall, etc.

A tiny bit of effort renders great reward.

Oh, wait, you expect the charity to consult a crystal ball and go to the needy, yeah?

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"thousands of people on the streets because they've no place to go."

Where & why are there 'thousands' on the streets with no place to go?

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"I'm not even counting the ones who prefer the street to shelters because it's safer."

Where are these unsafe shelters?

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"I'll bet for different reasons."

No doubt.

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"OK, I googled Associated Catholic Charities. It gives me Baltimore and NYC as a footnote."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities

And that link doesn't even begin to cover all the locations.

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"Cato or Brutus didn't write it, you did."

No, I didn't: https://books.google.com/books?id=t3...nobis.&f=false

http://lf-oll.s3.amazonaws.com/title...1_EBk_v6.0.pdf

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"The internet says you're wrong"

No, it doesn't.

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"you are used to being wrong."

Please, expose my errors, list 'em, shame me.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"I've seen roads in PA and NJ deteriorate in 3 months so they weren't passable at more than 25 mph."

Here in S Louisiana the roads are terrible: terrible with gov oversight.

I'm thinkin' folks might do a better job of it w/out incompetent pols & greedy contracters.

Who? Who's going to fix the roads? Who's going to buy the equipment and materials?

"grew up with a town volunteer Fire Department who put out many grass fires around houses that burned down."

Made my point for me: thanks.

Oh, I didn't realize your point was let 'em burn and try to keep it from spreading.

"The fire department usually has an ambulance with full time EMTs

Here, we got Acadian Ambulance. Privately owned. We seem to get along just fine w/out the gov in this area.

So you just pay whatever they say you owe, we also have private ambulances that charge as much as the lawyers who chase them.

"Because it becomes too fucking expensive when only a few are in it"

Again: you make my point. If folks, in large numbers want sumthin' (like unimployment ins) then the market (other folks) will provide. If so few folks actually want it that it has to be mandated, by technocrats with lent power, to 'be', well: you get my drift.

So you think if 40% want it someone will provide it cheaper than the currant system? 60%? 80% And still make a profit? Not a chance. A corporation rich enough to fund that kind of operation wouldn't be bothered with that piss ant operation. To make it worth their while nobody could afford it except people who don't need it.

"Right, they wouldn't come to rely on it, they'd just die like they used to."

Think it through: if you know your golden years are all on you then, mebbe, you make an effort to provide for those golden years when you're younger, you know, the way lots of folks do 'now' even with SS existin'.

Most people in the real world couldn't come up with enough to pay a surprise $500 bill over and above normal living expenses. I don't think the % of people building an investment portfolio for retirement is very high.

"Fine when you boy is running 106 fever send out for bids."

Think it through: I've already done my homework. When he had an 'issue' I took him where the treatment was available and the reasonable, and 'I' paid the bill, not taxpayers.

The last time I was in the hospital I was there from 6AM to about 1:30PM and the bill was over $175,000... +$19 to park. The taxpayers didn't pay that either. If the taxpayers were paying it would have probably been in the $30,000 range. If you don't have to worry about that shit you must be pretty rich.

"I don't need a charity but where do these people who do find one?"

On-line, phone book, a church, city hall, etc.

A tiny bit of effort renders great reward.

Oh, wait, you expect the charity to consult a crystal ball and go to the needy, yeah?

You're dreaming, every available resource is turning people away for lack off capacity.

"thousands of people on the streets because they've no place to go."

Where & why are there 'thousands' on the streets with no place to go?

The last numbers I saw were a little over 200,000 homeless citizens, but it's a tough area to get exact numbers.

"I'm not even counting the ones who prefer the street to shelters because it's safer."

Where are these unsafe shelters?

Now I'm trying to figure out if you're fucking with me or you're really that out of touch with reality.

"OK, I googled Associated Catholic Charities. It gives me Baltimore and NYC as a footnote."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities

And that link doesn't even begin to cover all the locations.

OK, where are they?

"Cato or Brutus didn't write it, you did."

No, I didn't:

Yes you did, those dudes were long dead when the Cellar was created, and I doubt either one had a computer. You wrote it.

"The internet says you're wrong"

No, it doesn't.

Show me.

"you are used to being wrong."

Please, expose my errors, list 'em, shame me.

I already have, just read everything you've written about the future.

[henry quirk]

"Oh, I didn't realize your point was let 'em burn and try to keep it from spreading."

My point: folks can 'do' w/out a gov's direction.

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"So you just pay whatever they say you owe"

Kinda like you do when you go to the grocery, or pay taxes. Difference is you can shop around for lower prices with groceries. Try that with taxes.

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"we also have private ambulances that charge as much as the lawyers who chase them."

That's the way it works, yeah.

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"So you think if 40% want it someone will provide it cheaper than the currant system? 60%? 80% And still make a profit? Not a chance. A corporation rich enough to fund that kind of operation wouldn't be bothered with that piss ant operation. To make it worth their while nobody could afford it except people who don't need it."

If folks want it, they can have it w/out the gov. I never said it would be cheaper.

Me:I don't want it. Can't see why I should pay a dime into it. You 'do' want it; you pay for it.

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"Most people in the real world couldn't come up with enough to pay a surprise $500 bill over and above normal living expenses."

And SS, somehow covers this? Mebbe folks coulda just kept that SS deposit in the first place, saving it as it suited them, investing it as they liked.

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"The last time I was in the hospital I was there from 6AM to about 1:30PM and the bill was over $175,000... +$19 to park."

You had to pay to park? What a rip. None of the places I use make me pay to park. My last bill was two grand. I paid in installments. You can do that if you negotiate. If I'd still had my neat lil catastrophic policy (the one the ACA nullified) the bill woulda been handled that way (privately, w/out the gov).

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"You're dreaming, every available resource is turning people away for lack off capacity."

Evidence, please.

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"The last numbers I saw were a little over 200,000 homeless citizens, but it's a tough area to get exact numbers."

Why are they homeless?

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"OK, where are they?"

Catholic Charitites? In every major city of every state; all over the world.

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"You wrote it."

Cut & paste is not composition.

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"Show me."

How? Oh, wait, I did that already by way of the two links.

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"I already have, just read everything you've written about the future."

The future: by defintion, hasn't happened yet. How can I be wrong (or you, right) about that?

[henry quirk]

"Who? Who's going to fix the roads? Who's going to buy the equipment and materials?"

Who does these things 'now'? The same folks (and a few others) would do it w/out gov oversight. What, people can't organize themselves, pursue common goals w/out 'finer clay' directin' 'em?

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"When others have to pay to preserve them, that's what's done."

It's deeper than that. Consider: why do some go to great lengths to not rely on others? Why do some go to great lengths to force others to support them? What's the foundational difference between the two?

Why does one live with hardship knowing hardship is the price for autonomy while another not only runs madly from hardship (and autonomy) but works hard to push a leash on his fellows?

Why do some wanna take care of themselves while others want to be taken care of?

[sexobon]

"It's deeper than that. …" which may be the case but isn't relevant (unless you believe the wants of the one, or the few, outweigh the needs of the many).

[henry quirk]

"the wants of the one, or the few, outweigh the needs of the many"

I think one gets to decide if he's gonna be relegated to bein' 'resource' for the many.

I think the many can go pound sand.