Wanted: Appliance / household wiring experts

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

So you are saying the power fluctuation caused it, and the microwave has always had this problem?

Not any power fluctuations. A list of different anomalies under that category are many. This one type fluctuation is why a watchdog with voltage monitor exists. And why some computers and games also have a safety lockout feature.

Other speculated anomalies (ie a surge) do not explain those symptoms. For example, if power on was created by a surge, then that oven would remain always powered when plugged in. Fact that it worked normal after power cycling implies a problem often found with real time single chip computers of that vintage. And not something created by a mythical surge.

If a cat started it, then that microwave eventually timed out. Or a thermal safety monitor cut off power. Unlikely a cat can just happen to hit a right sequence of keys. Or even has sufficient paw strength to depress those keys.

Provided was enough information to provide relevant facts - to define the defect. Much later comes a solution - which typically does not involve trashing a microwave.

Little facts, such as the above requested behavior of incandescent bulbs, is significant information. Also the state of other household appliances would say more.

BTW, when one only understands how to 'wreck shit', then even "electronic rust" is proof that Martians are conspiring with the Rovers to kill us all using our microwave ovens. Since extremists tell us those also used processor chips of same vintage design. He would accomplish more writing for Marvel.

[sexobon]

Ridiculous, just a load of sundowner gibberish.

Honest posters cite sources. I cited a source. Without sources and numbers the above irrational explanation can be binned. A senile old man like tw, with an extensive history of disseminating misinformation, is not a credible source. Why does he not post credible sources? What is he hiding? Why does no one corroborate his fantastic assertions that his and only his explanation should be accepted with no credible sources cited? Because, he's hiding behind lies and he can't dazzle with brilliance so he tries to baffle with bullshit. Smoke and mirrors. Tw is a moral enemy of all honest Americans.

[Glinda]

Originally Posted by Glinda

Ah. Now this makes perfect sense to me. I was sure there was a house wiring component to this mystery. Thank you!

Originally Posted by tw

No house wiring is involved in this mystery (if AC electric lights do not flicker or change intensity when major appliances power cycle).

No. House wiring absolutely DOES explain a lot to me, because of the clocks that needed to be reset and the clocks that didn’t. I’m thinking that there was a very brief (a few seconds) power surge – either before or after a brief actual outage (less than 60 seconds) – and that caused my poor, elderly microwave with its ancient hardware and software features to finally short/spaz out. If the above is true, the new, digital clocks needed to be reset because they’re new and very sensitive to any super-brief outage, meanwhile my 20-year-old stovetop and microwave clocks didn’t need to be reset because they can withstand and have consistently withstood outages of less than 60 seconds without having to be reset.

Originally Posted by tw

If you had a surge, then a microwave is damaged - no longer works. And some of other less robust appliances (ie GFCIs, clocks, central air controller, door bell) are damaged.

That makes no sense at all. I’ve lived here 14 years. The previous owners (the people who built this place) lived here for 6 years. That means the newer built-in microwave and all the other kitchen appliances are 20 years old. If what you claim is true, and a power surge kills microwaves, HVAC controllers, and doorbells, why do my newer microwave, my HVAC controller, and my doorbell still work perfectly? Why haven't the zillions of power surges over the past 50 years caused my old microwave to die before now?

Originally Posted by tw

Not one reason is given to suspect house wiring or a surge. So those wild speculations are binned immediately.

Nah. It’s winter here in SW Washington. There’s weather out there – freezing temps, snow, rain, hail, sleet, and occasional, significant wind. I live in a rural area not far from the Columbia River Gorge (LOTS of wind) with above-ground power lines and forested land for miles around. Trees/branches fall onto power lines all the time.

Originally Posted by sexobon

If you read what was written, with comprehension, you'll see that no one was blaming house wiring for the malfunction.

Correct. I’m certain the house wiring didn’t cause the microwave to power on. I said that the house wiring was a component of why the microwave powered on. The reason I believe this? It has to do with which clocks needed to be reset, and which clocks didn’t.

Originally Posted by sexobon

And then there's a potential problem from cumulative damage that can make a very old microwave more susceptible to a small external surge before or after a power outage.

Exactly. Simple common sense.

Originally Posted by tw

Fact that it worked normal after power cycling implies a problem often found with real time single chip computers of that vintage. And not something created by a mythical surge.

I am not an electrician, but a 50-year-old microwave will obviously have outdated computer chips and software. And even if the chips were originally designed to handle power surges (after all, power surges did exist in the 1970s, so this would presumably have been taken into design considerations), 50 years of handling power surges surely weakened whatever hardware and software design features were originally in place. Again, I’m not an electrician; this just seems like common sense to me.

Originally Posted by tw

If a cat started it, then that microwave eventually timed out. Or a thermal safety monitor cut off power. Unlikely a cat can just happen to hit a right sequence of keys. Or even has sufficient paw strength to depress those keys.

The cat may or may not be part of the equation. I merely brought it into the mix because I don’t think it can realistically be eliminated. The cat DOES paw at anything reflective (such as the front of the microwave). As for the microwave control panel, there is nothing to “depress” other than the big press bar that opens the door; the control panel is touch sensitive and has never failed in any way. Just a light touch and it engages.

Originally Posted by tw

BTW, when one only understands how to 'wreck shit', then even "electronic rust" is proof that Martians are conspiring with the Rovers to kill us all using our microwave ovens.

I KNEW it!

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by Glinda

Also:

I am not 100% certain, but, I think my best friend has that exact same microwave.

I'll have a looksee/picturetake today.

If I don't forget.

ETA: Yours is in infinitely better condition.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Glinda

House wiring absolutely DOES explain a lot to me, because of the clocks that needed to be reset and the clocks that didn’t. I’m thinking that there was a very brief (a few seconds) power surge – either before or after a brief actual outage (less than 60 seconds) – and that caused my poor, elderly microwave with its ancient hardware and software features to finally short/spaz out. If the above is true, the new, digital clocks needed to be reset because they’re new and very sensitive to any super-brief outage,

Digital is typically the most robust of appliances. Conclusion (myth) about 'sensitive' is promoted by many educated only by propaganda - advertising (such as Sexobon's surge citations that are blantant lies).

Listing specifically what each appliance did provides critically essential facts necessary for a better answer.

Notice which devices contain circuits to remain powered longer. Even your computer has a specification for how long it remains running uninterrupted with no incoming AC power. A number even stated in the original ATX Standard. And that is typically much longer in many computers.

This "uninterrupted without AC power" feature is found in all electronics and is especially necessary due to 'dirty' UPS power. Since a UPS must disconnect all power for a long time to eventually switch to battery power. They don't like layman to learn such realities. It might reduce sales.

How each item responds to an outage (or flicker) is unique to the that design. Applies both to today's more robust electronics or to 'rumored' more sensitive electronics from 40 years ago.

Originally Posted by Glinda

If what you claim is true, and a power surge kills microwaves, HVAC controllers, and doorbells, why do my newer microwave, my HVAC controller, and my doorbell still work perfectly? Why haven't the zillions of power surges over the past 50 years caused my old microwave to die before now?

So many urban myths remain to unlearn. Zillions of surges exist over 50 years because scam artists sell surge protectors that do not protect from surges. Those protectors fail catastrophically even on the first surge that is too tiny to damage any other appliances. So they claim surges are happening hourly and daily. How many unprotected GFCIs have you replaced today?

All appliances contain protection superior to what plug-in protectors claim. What so many call a surge (ie 120 volts approaching or exceeding 1000 volts) is really only noise (maybe a few tens of volts. Was your microwave exposed to a 1000 volt transient? Then how many other appliances are also destroyed?

120 volt electronics (even before the IBM PC existed) were required to withstand up to 600 volts without damage. Did I mention honest people also provide perspective - numbers? Where is one reason to suspect a 1000 volt spike? Not one fact suggests a surge. And plenty of facts that say it did not happen.

A surge is rare - maybe once every seven years. In your venue, typically less often. Things that suffer from a surge are permanently damaged - are never restored by power cycling. Surges do not weaken. They destroy or they are safely consumed as if 120 volt electricity. This from one who designs, who has traced surges, restored damage, and submitted everything to design reviews. Even before a Cellar existed.

Move on to anomalies that would actually explain your symptoms. One typical example was detailed previously. But nobody can say anything more until you provide more requested information.

Neither power outage nor restoration is or creates a surge. Only the many manipulated by sales propaganda and Donald diatribes never learn that. Move on to real world knowledge.

Originally Posted by Glinda

I said that the house wiring was a component of why the microwave powered on. The reason I believe this? It has to do with which clocks needed to be reset, and which clocks didn’t.

Again, behavior of every clock is traceable to its internal design. Household wiring has relevance - unless you can cite something so glaring unique to explain it. If it was a surge, it was incoming on every wire.

Meanwhile, more informed conclusions are possible if behavior of each item (not just clocks) is individually listed.

What is the problem with common sense? It results in junk science IF relevant science concepts are not first learned. We all learned what must exist to have knowledge - a hypothesis and experimental evidence. Common sense without first learning basic electrical concepts means no hypothesis; is how junk science gets promoted. We all here saw this happen and watched lies be exposed even long before the invasion started. Because so many used common sense to know Saddam had WMDs. If 'common sense' conclusions have no numbers, then it is a Richard Nixon or Donald Trump type lie - a worst type.

Again, international design standards, long before an IBM PC existed, required electronics to withstand surges. As defined by so many relevant numbers - some already discussed. Stop assuming old means failure. Failure is only defined by specification numbers have been discussed and that others here ignored so as to use common sense.

Surges also do not weaken internal protection. It is called a catastrophic failure. Either that surge is harmlessly consumed just like other electricity. Or the part fails catastrophically. Lies about 'weaker with age' or 'weakened software features' were invented by others who only use emotions to be experts. Who are not thinking logically like an adult.

You did not have a surge. Your every reason to believe so was promoted by other liars who know only because they feel they are experts. And who never post required numbers with every accusation.

Again, how many other appliances were affected by a surge - a voltage approaching or exceeding 1000 volts? Move on to reality.

Yes power surges existed in the 1970s just like they do today - maybe once every seven years. A number that can vary even in the same town. You know when a surge exists. Plug-in protectors fail catastrophically on that first surge. In 1987, PC Magazine published TWICE articles on how plug-in protectors fail and then create fires. A problem that continues so often today that APC finally admitted some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately due to less than 1000 house fires directly traceable to that one protector.

How many 'surge' experts bothered to learn that reality? How many protectors in your house tried to create a fire during that assumed surge?

Electricians do not know how electricity works. Electricians are experts on what must connect to what - according to code - so that human life is not threatened. Electricians have little grasp of how a microwave works, what a protector does, or even what impedance is. None of that necessary to memorize what can connect to what. Do not confuse an electrician (a technician) with an engineer or scientist. Completely different knowledge bases. An electrician could only have a funny look if a watchdog timer or voltage supervisor was mentioned. Those basic electrical concepts are never taught to electricians.

So, what was the behavior and resulting state of all other affected and unaffected appliances? Where is behavior of incandescent bulbs reported - since basic electrical knowledge says that is a major and critically important fact.

Do you have any video games? For example, did a PS4, not powered on then but plugged in, go into a safety lockout? A critically important fact. Incandescent bulb behavior (what is relevant detailed earlier) next week and last month is also a critical fact. Including behavior of a bulb powered from that microwave's receptacle.

BTW, which year was the microwave built? Difference between 1970, 1973, 1976, and 1979 is electrically significant. An example of why facts (especially numbers) are so important for better assistance.

I believe Spielberg once wrote a famous paper about how microwave ovens and other household appliances can kill us. It was then made into a Hollywood movie called Gremlins.

I was surprised that Sexobon did not bother to cite facts from that Spielberg paper.

[fargon]

TLDR

[sexobon]

All ramblings of an incoherent senile mind. No credible sources linked. Scatterbrained offshoots about Saddam Hussein, WMDs, and Richard Nixon in a discussion about a microwave. Twisted tangents into video games, surge protectors and Hollywood Movies in a discussion about a microwave. All attempted obfuscations to the self evident failure to read what was written and lack of reading comprehension. Asks leading questions after drawing conclusions in desperate search for confirmation bias responses. Dissemination of disinformation, smoke and mirrors cover-up, and general distain for honest Americans helping a fellow American out. A tragic waste of the human organism he inhabits. Tw is public enemy #666.

[Gravdigr]

[fargon]

^^^WHS^^^

[Glinda]

Originally Posted by tw

A surge is rare - maybe once every seven years. In your venue, typically less often. Things that suffer from a surge are permanently damaged - are never restored by power cycling.

Interesting. And yet, I've never met one person in my 60 years whose entire house full of electronics/appliances was permanently damaged by a power surge. Go figger!

Originally Posted by tw

Household wiring has relevance

Yeah. I think I said that.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Glinda

Interesting. And yet, I've never met one person in my 60 years whose entire house full of electronics/appliances was permanently damaged by a power surge.

That sentence had a typo. It should have read

Household wiring has irrelevance - unless you can cite something so glaring unique to explain it. If it was a surge, it was incoming on every wire.

Also noted: numbers (for a surge) can vary significantly even in the same town. Geology is one major factor in creating / avoiding risk. Even a nearby transcontinental pipeline can make surge damage easier. Surges are either consumed by appliances as if electricity; or do catastrophic (permanent) damage. No reason exists to believe a surge existed.

If a surge exists, it is incoming to everything. Is everything damaged? Of course not. That surge is hunting for best connections to an outgoing path - earth ground. So everything has a surge incoming. And some (multiple) items are a best outgoing and destructive path. Their destruction is what protected other appliances. Their damage indicates that a homeowner all but invited that surge inside. How many other appliances were damaged?

Most failures (that get blamed on surges) are actually manufacturing defects. Nobody can say anything more until catastrophically destroyed internal parts are identified; the destructive incoming and outgoing path identified.

But you clearly did not have a surge - since no damaged appliances are identified. And since surges never create what was observed in that microwave. Move on to other far more likely suspects.

Again, to say more, provide that information. No honest recommendation is possible until a problem is first confirmed.

Not even identified is that microwave's design year - 1970, 1973, 1976, or 1979 technology. Not identified are any other appliance in safety lockout mode. Even the resulting behavior of each display (clock) still is not listed. Technologies changed that much in that period - another relevant fact that remains withheld. Do you want a solution?

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by tw

… another relevant fact that remains withheld. Do you want a solution?

Typical tw MO, blame the person asking for help claiming they're withholding information that supports his senile interpretations and conclusions; then, dangle a carrot in front of them to keep them engaged to feed his narcissism. When is this enemy of decency ever going to link credible sources to back his diatribe … never of course because credible ones don't exist. Already posted was a reliable source of information which senile tw ignores. In his delusional state, narcissistic tw believes he's so much smarter than everyone else here that if he repeats a lie often enough, it will become the truth for them. He thinks everyone else lacks his resolve and circular arguments will enable his delusions to prevail. Tw is the enemy of truth, justice, and the American way.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The some clocks being ok and some had to be reset could be the ok ones have a battery or large capacitor to bridge short lapses in power. The other possibility is most houses have a 220 volt service(actually 240) that comes in on two 110 volt lines. Both are used for 220 appliances, but one is used for wall outlets. In order to balance the load about half the outlets will be on one leg and half on the other. I've seen more than once one leg coming in be interrupted and the clocks needing to be reset may all be on one leg.

The Sharp carousel microwaves you don't have to turn the food, it's turning all the time. By some king of fucking magic when I open the door and set something on the platter, no mater what time I give it when the time is up that item is exactly where I put it. 30 seconds or 30 minutes or 533 seconds the item is right there.

[sexobon]

I just set my phaser to heavy stun and it defrosts most anything in less than a minute.

[fargon]

Microwave defrosting BAD!

If you are in love with the thing just leave it unplugged when you're not using it.