Why we fight. Guilt?

[Griff]

A little something from Joe Sobran. Once you’ve killed a certain number of people, even with the best will in the world, it becomes awkward to make the cheerful admission, “I goofed.” Halfway through his river of blood, Macbeth reflects that going back would be as tedious as going all the way across. Actually, it turns out that he hasn’t even gone halfway yet.

This is why President Bush will “stay the course” in Iraq. Forget oil, money, power, and even reelection: The deepest vested interest is guilt. Bush has done things he can’t bear to renounce, no matter how costly to America continuing them may yet become.

If he could just shift the guilt to some of his soon to be indicted (guess who gave Chalabi the info he sent to Iran) neo-con advisers, maybe we could pull out.

[jaguar]

That would make cherny lady macbeth.
This could have a silver lining after all.

"Out! Out, damned spot!" Nice doggie.

[Undertoad]

The shell game is over and you guys are still trying to figure out where the pea is. You should be more interested in the state of your twenty dollar bill, which by now is blocks away.

Meanwhile,

TUNIS (Reuters) - Arab governments, responding to a U.S. campaign for Arab democracy, have promised to carry out political and social reforms in an oil-rich region which includes some of the world's most repressive rulers.

In documents read out at the end of a two-day Arab summit in Tunis on Sunday, the 22 Arab League members promised to promote democracy, expand popular participation in politics and public affairs, reinforce women's rights and expand civil society.

It's too early to tell whether they were right or wrong.

Originally posted by Undertoad
The shell game is over and you guys are still trying to figure out where the pea is. You should be more interested in the state of your twenty dollar bill, which by now is blocks away.

Meanwhile,


It's too early to tell whether they were right or wrong.

"They" who? As far as that little news snippet, sure you bet! Like the Saudi royal family, for example, is really going to relinquish its power. I imagine the Arab league signed this document with disappearing ink, figuring that promises made to evil Christians don't count and betrayal begets betrayal as in the West's failed agreements with the Arab world dating back to the beginning of the 20th century and before.

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
The shell game is over and you guys are still trying to figure out where the pea is.

What does that mean? It means democracy cannot be forced upon nations. The only democracy that works is one that the little people want. If they don't start the wheel rolling, then any attempt to impose democracy will fail. When those Arab states are ready for reform is when those Arab states will demand democracy. Any attempt to force reform on them will only lead to long term disaster for western nations who try to impose reform. Is Iraq not a classic example? Are the lessons of Somolia not yet learned? Did we not learn from South Vietnam?

When a nation is ready for democracy, then the nation will demand democracy. Ie Poland. The velvet revolution. Russia. Any attempt to impose reform in any Arab nation will only make the US an enemy of those people. Had the mental midget's Axis of Evil speech not interfered with domestic Iranian politics, then reformers in Iran would not have been undermined. Again, lessons from history.

Originally posted by tw
What does that mean? It means democracy cannot be forced upon nations. The only democracy that works is one that the little people want. If they don't start the wheel rolling, then any attempt to impose democracy will fail. When those Arab states are ready for reform is when those Arab states will demand democracy. Any attempt to force reform on them will only lead to long term disaster for western nations who try to impose reform. Is Iraq not a classic example? Are the lessons of Somolia not yet learned? Did we not learn from South Vietnam?

When a nation is ready for democracy, then the nation will demand democracy. Ie Poland. The velvet revolution. Russia. Any attempt to impose reform in any Arab nation will only make the US an enemy of those people. Had the mental midget's Axis of Evil speech not interfered with domestic Iranian politics, then reformers in Iran would not have been undermined. Again, lessons from history.

Pffffft! And since when has America's leadership ever learned from history? We have a president who is a former frat boy, reformed drunk who can't even put together a complete sentence. We elected another president who played second man to a chimp. The American people as a whole run from any understanding of history as if such knowledge was proferred to them by the devil. Learning from history! You wild eyed, dreamer, you. Just lay down quietly while your Aunt Marichiko gets you a cold compress for your head. There, there now.

[jaguar]

TUNIS (Reuters) - Arab governments, responding to a U.S. campaign for Arab democracy, have promised to carry out political and social reforms in an oil-rich region which includes some of the world's most repressive rulers.

You take the arab league seriously? You actually think they mean that??? That's a pretty damn pathetic straw to be clinging to UT. The arab league is like a weaker more ineffectual version of the UN general assembaly.

The interesting thing was Al-Jazeera (you remember those terrorists) lambasting arab rulers for denouncing the prisoner abuse in iraq while doing far worse themselves (resulting in them being banned in saudi).

Clearly freedom of the press isn't the first social reform in the new leaf you think those guys have turned over.

[wolf]

According to the Weekly World News (a fine publication, available on many American Supermarket Checkout Racks, next to the bubble gum and handy eyeglass repair kits) we are fighting because the Bonesman-in-Chief meant to say "Iran has weapons of mass destruction," fucked up the speech, and we were kind of stuck.

[Beestie]

The Weekly World News, much like Le Monde, is indeed a most respected publication.

[Undertoad]

I used that news item but I could have used any number of other ones which didn't represent the Arab League but which represented individual countries' moves. If they are just giving lip service to Democratic reforms it is at least more than they used to do.

"They" is the Vulcans/neo-cons/chickenhawks who said that democratizing Iraq would lead to similar pressure across the Middle East, and although things seem to suck right now, it's STILL too early to figure out whether they were right. We can't see what point of the curve we are on in history.

I agree that the character of the people is the major aspect that determines whether they are capable of maintaining a Democracy. Then again, they probably don't need to get it perfect, they only need to get better than what they have now and it would be a huge advance.

[elSicomoro]

A half-assed democracy is not really a democracy.

[jaguar]

The Weekly World News, much like Le Monde, is indeed a most respected publication.

If you are implying Le Monde is of the same quality as WWN, fuck you, moron. Seriously, it's one of the most respected broadsheets in europe so if, like a hell of a lot of your other halfwitted copatriots think because it's french it must be shit, get the pole out of your ass and grow up. Everyone else is laughing at you.

Ok UT, where are these hundreds of other moves. So far I've seen curbing of media in Saudi and the army shooting rioters in beruit this week, I must've missed the free and fair elections in egypt.

[Beestie]

Originally posted by jaguar
If you are implying Le Monde is of the same quality as WWN, fuck you, moron.

I was only kidding. I figured the comparison was so absurd so as not to require a smiley.

[jaguar]

Sorry, i was about to ammend that post to make sure that if was bolded.

In the age of freedom fries it wouldn't shock me any more.

Yes i get the irony of your post, ill go wipe the egg off my face now.