Hard & Soft America

[jaguar]

I watched the hearings and the top brass taking the heat, they were as full of shit as they come, this was known about, it was reported to them, nothing was done and nothing would have been done if it hadn`t hit the media.

[glatt]

Originally posted by depmats
You don't have to be at the top of a chain of command to come up with a fucked up idea. It is possible, whether you will admit it or not, that they DID do this on their own. We don't know - not you, not me. Conspiracy theories will abound and everybody can believe what they want, but you don't know for a fact that it does go beyond them and I don't know for a fact that it doesn't.

. . . .

I don't say it is impossible that this went higher, but I am sick and tired of armchair generals like you sitting back and assuming that it went to the highest levels, "OMG america is crumbling, lets burn the village and cut our wrists so the world doesn't have to be ravaged by our decadent society anymore... "

Actually, we know where this came from. It came from the White House. It was White House counsel that said that the US doesn't have to follow Geneva Conventions anymore. He didn't say it in a vacuum either. He said it to senior White House staff, maybe even the President. That attitude trickled down through the ranks to the prison guards. It came from the TOP. I'm sure the idea of the the naked piles of prisoners didn't come from the White House, but the general idea of the suspension of the Geneva Conventions did.

And by the way, I know how terribly sick and tired you are, but if you are quoting somebody saying that America should slit its wrists, maybe you should attribute that quote to somebody specific. Unless, of course, you pulled the quote out of your ass.

[godwulf]

Originally posted by DanaC
Often what seems like anti american sentiment from us euros is actually more of an intense disappointment that with the start you had you havent managed to avoid making the same mistakes we made when we were powerful. But then they do say that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. America has absolute power in the modern world.

Bingo, as they say...and I believe that this knowledge (of being "the world's last remaining super-power", as the news people are always reminding us) affects the thinking, even if subtly, of more Americans in more ways than we're really aware.

Whether you're talking about George W. Bush himself, or the man (or woman) on the street, the basic attitude seems to have developed into something along the lines of, "We're the United States and we'll do what we damn well want to." Criticism of the President's goals or methods equals capitulation to "the terrorists" and their supporters (e.g. anyone who doesn't agree with the President's goals or methods). America, it seems to many, can only "stay strong" by enforcing the will and agenda of its executive leadership (by which I do not mean the President, but his unelected, behind the scenes advisors) around the World.

The abuses at Abu Ghraib are just a symptom of a general malady called Hubris. "We're the United States, and we'll do what we damn well want to."

[TheLorax]

Yes ‘hubris’, that is exactly the problem. We are the only super power left and we think that means that rules don’t apply to us. It’s ridiculous in a pride cometh before a fall way. The truth is that we can get away with whatever we want to get away with. Does that make it right? It a crime still a crime if the police never find out about it.

As for how far up this goes, well that’s what investigations are for isn’t it. I do think there is culpability at the top, they are the ones who set the tone. Bush wants to run this country like a business, well fine then the CEO is at fault. Does this mean that we can expect his resignation now or does “the buck stops here” only apply to Democrats.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by TheLorax
Bush wants to run this country like a business, well fine then the CEO is at fault.

So he'll get $30 million a year and free rides in Air Force 1 for life?

Eh, still worth it.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by TheLorax
Bush wants to run this country like a business

Didn't he tank two healthy companies that were handed to him or something?

[elSicomoro]

And he traded Sammy Sosa to the Cubs...

Originally posted by depmats
The military does not have cameras on everyone all the time. It is possible for a group of people to act in an unacceptable manner for a time - it will eventually be found out, though. and investigated. people will be disciplined. scenario sound familiar at all?
I don't say it is impossible that this went higher, but I am sick and tired of armchair generals like you sitting back and assuming that it went to the highest levels, "OMG america is crumbling, lets burn the village and cut our wrists so the world doesn't have to be ravaged by our decadent society anymore... "

Get over it. Bad shit happened. Consequences will be paid. It is bad but the world isn't ending because of the actions of some dumbass prison guards. [/b]

You are dead wrong. Very bad things happen in the military that are never made public and no one gets disciplined as a result of them happening. What was done to my full blood Native American friend as a result of racial prejudice was simply the tip of the iceberg in a military mindset which allowed for the torture of Iraqui prisoners. No one was disciplined over what happened to him. The entire case was swept under the rug and my friend was simply thankful to get out with his official record cleared and his good name intact. I begged him to go after the SOB Colonel responsible, but he just wanted clear of the entire situation, and I can't say that I blame him. Later reports showed that his was not an isolated case.

[depmats]

Marichiko - I give up - in your belief system the entire military is a big clusterfuck. It's full of bad, evil people out to screw over the world in some mad powerplay. The real military does not resemble Dr Strangelove. Bad shit happens - just like in everyday life. Get over it.

Originally posted by depmats
Marichiko - I give up - in your belief system the entire military is a big clusterfuck. It's full of bad, evil people out to screw over the world in some mad powerplay. The real military does not resemble Dr Strangelove. Bad shit happens - just like in everyday life. Get over it.

Wrong, pal. That's not my take at all. There are plenty of decent, competent people in the military. It is on their behalf that I speak out against the abuses which occur. I'm not saying that every minority member in the military is discriminated against or that every soldier is a secret torturer. But some people want to enforce a sort of conspiracy of silence when our military does do something that is wrong - as if anybody who would be upset about us torturing prisoners is on the side of the enemy. People SHOULD be upset about this. It goes against everything the US is supposed to stand for.