Hard & Soft America

[depmats]

Do you think that just maybe, the time period that he spent in the military and the tours immediately preceding his retirement may have tainted his ( and your) view of the military?

It's not the same military that he retired from.

[godwulf]

I retired from the Navy in '93, after 21 years on active duty. I remember the early '70s laxity very well - smoking dope, especially, was very widespread and in the open. Random drug testing and zero tolerance discharges for all put an eventual end to that - but other, even more serious problems have not been as easy to eliminate...perhaps because there exists, within the military, very little desire or incentive to do so.

There exist, in the military, a number of near-universal and (sadly) perhaps inevitable roadblocks to efficiency and competence...and these were in evidence, to me and those with whom I worked, every bit as much in '93 as they were in '72. One of my sons recently served a tour as a tank mechanic in the Army, and advises me that very little if anything has changed in these areas.

To put it simply, the military is not a business - it is therefore under no pressure to 'make a profit' or operate in the most time- or cost-effective manner. Waste is not only a way of life - it's sometimes a priority.

I can remember my P3-C Orion crew being about to land back at Moffett Field after a training flight, and being advised by the Ops office to do 'bounces' (landing practice) for two or three hours, in order to burn fuel. It was the last day of the fiscal quarter or something, and we had to burn the fuel or risk being alotted less in the future. Once I was handed a supply catalog by my Department Head and told to "order anything you can think of" - he didn't care what - for much the same reason.

Since job performance ratings are never based on making (and seldom based on saving) money, they are often based, instead, on very arbitrary, and often bizarre and nonsensical, criteria that would only make sense within the context of the military, and at times, not even there. Add to this that it is nearly impossible - once a certain level of seniority, in either the enlisted or the officer grades, has been achieved - to lose your job without creating a very serious and public spectacle of a screw-up, and the stage is pretty well set for institutionalized incompetence to rule the day.

In the late '80s-early '90s, the TQM (Total Quality Management) craze struck the military at the highest levels; the military leadership renamed it 'Total Quality Leadership', and soon commands were shelling out taxpayer money for $500 videotapes of the system's founder dropping ball bearings onto a table and droning on about probability. The bottom line was to establish working groups within a company (or command) to address and examine every tiny aspect of the institution's workings and make recommendations to those in charge as to how to proceed. It was (and is) the most complex and convoluted method humanly imaginable for doing anything, and it fit the military like a big square peg in a round hole. I'm sure they've probably dropped it by now, but not before a whole lot of brass-hats had their retirement homes paid for by kickbacks from the TQM people.

[Clodfobble]

I can remember my P3-C Orion crew being about to land back at Moffett Field after a training flight, and being advised by the Ops office to do 'bounces' (landing practice) for two or three hours, in order to burn fuel. It was the last day of the fiscal quarter or something, and we had to burn the fuel or risk being alotted less in the future. Once I was handed a supply catalog by my Department Head and told to "order anything you can think of" - he didn't care what - for much the same reason.

This sort of thing most definitely happens in corporate America too. Departments have to spend the budget money or lose it, that's the way it goes.

[TheLorax]

The proud actions of our military recently have made me feel like the American Dream is derailed. When did America become the land of the oppressors and opportunists, when did we go from the people who freed Dachau to the people who thought it would be great fun to sexually assault people who are handcuffed and take pictures of it? When did America become a bunch of weak-minded thugs looking to oppress anyone who disagreed with them. I will be willing to bet money that someone reading this is thinking right now, “if you don’t like it get out.” Yes because the America that was once the land of the free and the home of the brave has become the land of like it or leave it, the very thing our ancestors came here to escape.

I have long thought that really, everyone worldwide is just trying to make it day to day, keep the kids out of trouble, food on the table, roof over their heads – the human condition is universal. Even so, I thought we had something different in this country that was founded by rugged individuals and adventure seekers. If we were looking for the easy way out, none of us would be here. We were the grand experiment, a nation of devil may care cowboys – play hard, work hard, shoot straight, and fight fair. We’ve always had our differences but at the core of it, we all knew that we were in this thing together and when the chips were down, we had each other’s backs. Considering what we had to work with, it’s amazing that we didn’t kill each other off long ago, but we didn’t. We started with nothing and took this country from a wild and untamed frontier to the world’s only remaining super power. We’re the richest, most powerful nation on earth and it would seem that we’ve become a bunch of assholes.

What does it mean to be a “proud American” now? What has America done to be proud of? The idiot running the country is a national embarrassment. Did you see that speech last night – utter and complete crap.

[depmats]

[quote]Originally posted by TheLorax
[b]The proud actions of our military recently have made me feel like the American Dream is derailed. When did America become the land of the oppressors and opportunists, when did we go from the people who freed Dachau to the people who thought it would be great fun to sexually assault people who are handcuffed and take pictures of it? When did America become a bunch of weak-minded thugs looking to oppress anyone who disagreed with them.

When did we decide to condemn all for the actions of a dozen piles of shit?


I (nor any thinking person) don't condone the behavior, but I refuse to weep and gnash my teeth at the downfall of America because of a few vermin.

[Happy Monkey]

This behavior is much more widespread than the dozen grunts pictured.

[depmats]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
This behavior is much more widespread than the dozen grunts pictured.

are you saying you believe that
A) a few
B) many
c) most
d) all

of the troops stationed in Iraq are getting off on degrading prisoners in Iraq? My point is that if it is 12/20/50/100 of the 140,000+ people deployed it is still a small minority. It is not acceptable - toast 'em and move on.

[TheLorax]

Not only it is systemic but there has been a shocking lack of outrage. We’re supposed to be the protectors of the little guys and yet people who claim to be the moral arbiters of this country ie. Rush are acting like this is normal, acceptable behavior. It’s not normal, it’s not acceptable, and it’s not what made this country worth fighting and dying for. My grandfather did NOT go to WWII so that a mere 60 years later we could be the very thing he went to war to stop.

[depmats]

1) Rush is a buffoon. Even someone who is conservative will tell you that.

2) Many actions of US troops in WWII would be classified as torture today. Not this type of stupid bullshit torture either. This was just the work of bullies, who deserve to have their lives ended for abusing those put under their control. I don't believe this was really done to get info. In WWII, if a captured soldier had info that his captors needed - THEY WOULD GET IT. I believe it was Lt Col West who fired a gun near a prisoner's head last year and then saw his career destroyed. That would not have even been reported in WWII.

Different world, different obstacles.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by depmats
... the troops stationed in Iraq are getting off on degrading prisoners in Iraq? My point is that if it is 12/20/50/100 of the 140,000+ people deployed it is still a small minority.

The real number to compare to is not 140,000, but the number of troops and civilian contractors who have direct contact with prisoners. I think that the abuse rate among them is very high, but I know that it is higher than 12, which is the number blithely bandied about as if to excuse it.

edit:

I also think it goes much higher in rank as well as number.

[TheLorax]

That very apathy is what I’m talking about. Do you really think that that this was the actions of a few, low level morons? They had to get the idea somewhere that this was acceptable. Who do you blame?

You can start out by blaming the ones who physically committed the crimes – sure, absolutely. Individuals are responsible for their own behavior, but it would be naïve to stop there.

You have to point the finger at the brass who either through ignorance or apathy allowed this kind of thing to happen right under their noses. Which is it, they either condone it or they are negligent in their duties – thanks for coming, that one just took a bad hop off the infield now hit the bench.

Do you blame the American culture that will shit bricks over seeing a human breast on television, but thinks nothing of casual and bloody violence. Did you watch CSI this week? There was a graphic rape scene at what 9:00 at night. So consensual sex is bad, ugly, and dirty but cold cocking a woman, tying her up, and raping her is all in a night’s entertainment? Isn’t it just possible that we are desensitizing ourselves to violence to the point that the line between fantasy and reality is blurred?

What about the parents? Those guys were not raised by wolves, someone gave birth to them, nurtured them, and then unleashed them on the world. This is not just about the guys who did this either, this is about every single citizen of this country who has looked at those pictures and viewed them with anything other than shock, outrange, and horror. Why isn’t this being called what it is, treason?

[godwulf]

Originally posted by TheLorax
When did America become the land of the oppressors and opportunists, when did we go from the people who freed Dachau to the people who thought it would be great fun to sexually assault people who are handcuffed and take pictures of it? When did America become a bunch of weak-minded thugs looking to oppress anyone who disagreed with them. ... We’re the richest, most powerful nation on earth and it would seem that we’ve become a bunch of assholes.

Maybe I'm more optimistic than I should be, but I still believe that most Americans, when confronted with the simple, unvarnished truth about a given situation, will make the fair, decent and rational choice. The greatest obstacles to that happening are the influence generated, the interference run, the obfuscation created, and the misinformation supplied, by the powers that be behind the scenes - those with a tremendous financial interest in things going along pretty much as they have been in recent years.

Our foreign policy is no longer in the hands of learned statemen, even to the extent that it ever was. The fate of American servicemen is now in the hands of White House policy wonks with their own agendas - and to a great extent, they have made every American a target for the World's outrage. Every criticism is deflected with spin, knee-jerk denial, ridicule and outright lying, and no one is ever held accountable for the truth.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by TheLorax
What does it mean to be a “proud American” now? What has America done to be proud of? The idiot running the country is a national embarrassment. Did you see that speech last night – utter and complete crap.

I have to disagree Lorax. Technically, he's an international embarrassment.

[depmats]

[quote]Originally posted by TheLorax
[b] They had to get the idea somewhere that this was acceptable. Who do you blame?

You can start out by blaming the ones who physically committed the crimes – sure, absolutely. Individuals are responsible for their own behavior, but it would be naïve to stop there.

You have to point the finger at the brass who either through ignorance or apathy allowed this kind of thing to happen right under their noses. Which is it, they either condone it or they are negligent in their duties – thanks for coming, that one just took a bad hop off the infield now hit the bench.

You don't have to be at the top of a chain of command to come up with a fucked up idea. It is possible, whether you will admit it or not, that they DID do this on their own. We don't know - not you, not me. Conspiracy theories will abound and everybody can believe what they want, but you don't know for a fact that it does go beyond them and I don't know for a fact that it doesn't.

As for pointing the finger at the brass? Well, I'm still pretty far down the food chain so it isn't like I am covering a friend's ass here. I wish everything could be as simple as your view of events(condone vs. negligent) The military does not have cameras on everyone all the time. It is possible for a group of people to act in an unacceptable manner for a time - it will eventually be found out, though. and investigated. people will be disciplined. scenario sound familiar at all?
I don't say it is impossible that this went higher, but I am sick and tired of armchair generals like you sitting back and assuming that it went to the highest levels, "OMG america is crumbling, lets burn the village and cut our wrists so the world doesn't have to be ravaged by our decadent society anymore... "

Get over it. Bad shit happened. Consequences will be paid. It is bad but the world isn't ending because of the actions of some dumbass prison guards.

[DanaC]

I have long thought that really, everyone worldwide is just trying to make it day to day, keep the kids out of trouble, food on the table, roof over their heads – the human condition is universal. Even so, I thought we had something different in this country that was founded by rugged individuals and adventure seekers. If we were looking for the easy way out, none of us would be here. We were the grand experiment, a nation of devil may care cowboys – play hard, work hard, shoot straight, and fight fair.

Beautifully put. Often what seems like anti american sentiment from us euros is actually more of an intense disappointment that with the start you had you havent managed to avoid making the same mistakes we made when we were powerful. But then they do say that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. America has absolute power in the modern world.

As to the abuses in Abu Ghraib.....The soldiers and reservists who are being courtmarialled over those offenses should be held accountable for their actions, but they did not think this up. They are responsible for their parts in it but they are not responsible for the whole. The people who are ultimately responsible for this outrage are the people who stated that the soldiers and interrogators should "Grab who (they) like and do what (they) want". These same people instigated a policy of abuse in Guantanamo bay and Afghanistan and then extended that policy to include Abu Ghraib. Rumsfeld and Rice both approved that order.