Who does homosexuality hurt?

[classicman]

My point, Jinx, was that perhaps her parents don't fully know or understand her because they don't completely know HER. If she is keeping who she is from them, how are they supposed to be able to help and guide her?

[DanaC]

Also, as Merc said, regardless of the rights and wrongs of their particular viewpoint/belief system, those parents may well feel hurt by such revelations. For the gay son or daughter, then, it may feel like protecting the parents from 'harmful' or distressing knoweldge, as well as protecting themselves from potential rejection.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If you don't want to play by the house rules, you have three choices.

1- Cheat and risk punishment if you're caught.
2- Convince the house to change the rules for you.
3- Change houses.

[Aliantha]

When our kids leave high school, and either get a job or go to uni, they're going to have to start supporting their own lifestyle choices. If they don't get themselves a job, they wont be going anywhere because we wont be funding it for them. Even if they're studying we expect them to have a part time job to fund their wardrobe, car expenses and entertainment. We've already discussed paying for their books etc, but we wont be paying for the uni. That will go on hecs (that's where the govt pays the tuition and then when the degree is finished, it comes out of their tax. A bit like a student loan I'm guessing) just as both Dazza and myself have done.

There are plenty of people here who fund everything and buy new cars for their kids etc, but I don't agree with this course and I definitely don't agree with my child telling me how I should support them. If my kids were to lie to me I don't think I'd feel inclined to say, "that's ok, you're an adult now. I'll just keep paying the bills for you while you talk crap to me." Nope, that's not how it would work.

If they think they know better than me on how the world works, it'll be time for them to step out of my house and into the big wide world.

Here's an example for you. If I found my kids were involved in some kind of hate group, I wouldn't support them in their 'choices'. I am opposed to these types of behaviour and will not support them. I would still love my child, but I would never support those types of choices.

[morethanpretty]

I never said I don't have a relationship with them. Its good as far as relationships with parents go I think. I'm just sayin although they might try to do what is best for me, and think they are. Proof is that they don't as often as they think. I precisely don't tell them aspects of my life because I know they wouldn't understand, and it would just make them resent me more. The facts are tho: I've been financially responsible since 18, and personally responsible my whole life (never did hard core drugs, A's pretty much all thru school, never any trouble with the law ect ect). I do give my parents credit for helping me along, but I overcame a lot despite them as well. I'm tryin hard to become a success at something or other. To me that should be enuf for my parents, although I should not have to earn their love, I have done more than most children to do so, and to keep it. Right now I do need my parents support in order to reach my goals, and yes I think they owe it to me to try to do everything in their power to help me reach those goals.

Once you have child, they are always your child. You have to treat them as an adult eventually, yes, but your responsibility to them never ends. They are in this world because of you. They are who they are a good chunk because of you. Genetically and conditionally. Therefore, you have the responsibility to try to help them succeed.*
To me a big chunk of that means: achieve personal happiness. Why would this responsibility end at 18? Their life journey is nowhere near its end, you set them on that path, you're their guide. If you don't understand their "gayness," then maybe you should pull your nose out of "the good book" and research it some.
If they turn into an irresponsible, ungrateful, idiotic adult, yes that is partially to blame on you. You fucked 'em up or allowed 'em to fuck up, you gonna just walk away from that and say "Hey not my problem anymore, they're over 18."?



*Definition for those of ya'll who don't seem to be able to look past the monetary meaning of that word:
suc⋅ceed
   /səkˈsid/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhk-seed] Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)
1. to happen or terminate according to desire; turn out successfully; have the desired result: Our efforts succeeded.
2. to thrive, prosper, grow, or the like: Grass will not succeed in this dry soil.
3. to accomplish what is attempted or intended: We succeeded in our efforts to start the car.
4. to attain success in some popularly recognized form, as wealth or standing: The class voted him the one most likely to succeed.
5. to follow or replace another by descent, election, appointment, etc. (often fol. by to).
6. to come next after something else in an order or series.
–verb (used with object)
7. to come after and take the place of, as in an office or estate.
8. to come next after in an order or series, or in the course of events; follow.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

Once you have child, they are always your child. You have to treat them as an adult eventually, yes, but your responsibility to them never ends. They are in this world because of you. They are who they are a good chunk because of you. Genetically and conditionally. Therefore, you have the responsibility to try to help them succeed.*
To me a big chunk of that means: achieve personal happiness.

No, their responsibility is to teach you, prepare you, to survive. If they do that, you owe them, they don't owe you.
You're happiness is your responsibility. Any concern they have with your happiness is out of love, not responsibility, and that's a two way street. If you make them unhappy why in hell should they care if you're happy.

[Ruminator]

mtp, once a parent- always a parent- true enough.

And you are obviously correct in that raising children partially shapes who a parent is as a person when done raising their children.
But to think that a parent owes you a lifetime debt or something for what you've contributed to who they are now as a person is screwed up logically.
They chose(hopefully) to create you. Are you glad to have a chance to live a life and make of it all that you can?

But as everyone else has told you; there are limits to a parents responsibilities toward their children. Otherwise the child would never learn eternally important consequences and responsibilities.
Are you going to pay them back in some kind of way for any hurtful results they've experienced in raising you since they owe you for your good contributions to them?

Each of you were/ are a source of blessing and hurt to each other. Thats just the results of human relationships.

By your logic, you forever owe any friend you make all of the support they need from you regardless of the horrific choices and consequences they make and bring upon themselves. Not true, life is way more complicated than that.
Enabling and codependency are very real and you can help someone to continue hurting themselves if you don't realize what you are doing. Read up on these at Wikipedia and elsewhere.

Also it was their own parenting choices and the consequences of those choices that has brought them, and you, to this point. If for the most part they made good choices toward/ for you, then you owe them gratitude. Just as I'm sure they are grateful for your good choices.
Likewise, as I mentioned above, it was also to some degree, your choices and the resultant consequences that has brought you, and them to this point in life.
They owe you nothing more than continued teaching and advice after you become an adult.
But having said all of this, just as a parent makes sacrifices out of love for their children when raising them, many that are beyond the required ones; a parent can choose to do so for an adult child of theirs; out of love, not requirement. But those enabling issues must be avoided.

* apologies- this post is off-topic of the OP

[DanaC]

I agree wit MTP on this one. As adults we are responsible for ourselves; our parents also share some responsibility for the person we are and the journey we're on. Maybe not legally, but morally.

And the idea that parents know what's best for their children is so bloody dependent upon the individual parents and the individual children it's almost not worth making the point in the first place. MTP had a right, as a struggling youngster, to have her needs taken into account.

To be put through all of that and then have the people who've put you through it turn round and deny the suffering you've been through must be horrible.

Parents make mistakes and so do children. Parents can often offer insight and wisdom by dint of their extended time on the planet. But they can also offer bad advice, damaging counsel and assist in trapping you into an unhappy life. having done so there is a moral weight on them. Having set you onto a destructive path and equipped you with the wrong tools for the world you're in, it is then a bit of a cheek to wash their hands of you when you've reached your majority and are trying to mend things.

I'm glad MTP managed to maintain a good relationship with her parents despite their travails. Clearly she is someone who is a) strong enough to forge her own path and b) understanding enough to recognise the lack of malice in her parents' actions.

If I were her, I would not tell them about my life. There are aspects of my life I have never told my father, because I know he wouldn't get it. Mum knows, because she does get it. Why tell Dad stuff that would give him a negative view of his daughter and possibly make him unhappy?

One of the very few things I regret in life, was telling Gran, in a flurry of teenage arrogance, that I was an atheist. All defiance and nihilistic zeal, I was determined to tear down the edifice of faith. All I actually did was hurt her. Her beliefs seemed (and still do) ludicrous and psychologically damaging to me. But for her, all she heard was that her adored grandchild was going to hell for eternity.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I agree wit MTP on this one. As adults we are responsible for ourselves; our parents also share some responsibility for the person we are and the journey we're on. Maybe not legally, but morally.

I agree completely. Morally responsible, not materially responsible. The Lord knows there is a world filled with screwed up parents.

And the idea that parents know what's best for their children is so bloody dependent upon the individual parents and the individual children it's almost not worth making the point in the first place. MTP had a right, as a struggling youngster, to have her needs taken into account.

Agreed. But that is the way the world is set up. Parents are responsible for children and there is no way around that. You can only do the best you can as you know how within the constructs of your own experiences. It is never perfect. I am not sure how you can say that the majority of parents do not believe that they don't know what is best for their children. Don't we see examples of that all the time, someone telling someone else that they don't know how to parent or that they are doing it wrong? Based on what? Other than obvious physical or emotional abuse you would have a hard time telling a parent they were wrong in the way they chose to raise their kids.

Parents make mistakes and so do children. Parents can often offer insight and wisdom by dint of their extended time on the planet. But they can also offer bad advice, damaging counsel and assist in trapping you into an unhappy life. having done so there is a moral weight on them. Having set you onto a destructive path and equipped you with the wrong tools for the world you're in, it is then a bit of a cheek to wash their hands of you when you've reached your majority and are trying to mend things.

True to some extent, but "trying to mend things" is quite different from saying, screw off, I know what is best for me, but you have to bail me out anyway becasue you are my parents. That is not going to fly.

If I were her, I would not tell them about my life. There are aspects of my life I have never told my father, because I know he wouldn't get it. Mum knows, because she does get it. Why tell Dad stuff that would give him a negative view of his daughter and possibly make him unhappy?

One of the very few things I regret in life, was telling Gran, in a flurry of teenage arrogance, that I was an atheist. All defiance and nihilistic zeal, I was determined to tear down the edifice of faith. All I actually did was hurt her. Her beliefs seemed (and still do) ludicrous and psychologically damaging to me. But for her, all she heard was that her adored grandchild was going to hell for eternity.

And now we come full circle to the point of this discussion and thread title. If you know that things that you do will really hurt your parents in the long run why not just go on about what you do and not tell them? But as Classic pointed out that if they do find out you always run the risk that you may lose support from them and hurt them, forever changing the way they view you. How about every single one of you go and make a list of all the things that you know that you would never want your parents to know about you. Write it down. We could all easily come up with at least 10 things and the older we are possibly more. Now take that list and call your parents and tell them all those things on the list. How many would do it? Or would you just rather they did not know because if they found out you know it would hurt them?

We have another thread here where people are discussing their relationships with their parents.

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=18863

It is a two way street. As adults all parties involved have responsibilities to each other. If one party feels that they must do something that the other disagrees with then there are many choices that can be made in how you agree to deal with those choices. It matters not that they are your parent/child.

[Sundae]

I agree completely. Morally responsible, not materially responsible. The Lord knows there is a world filled with screwed up parents.

And once again it's all about the money.

My parents have taken me in again at the age of 36. So far at no financial cost to them, but you could easily skew it to make it sound like it will be. But yes, they would have taken me back in if I was gay. Why? Because despite the fact their religion tells them it's not acceptable, they are my parents and they love me.

How many parents take pregnant daughters back in? Provide them with free child support to enable them to have a better toehold in the employment market than those with working partners? Apparently "encouraging unmarried mothers " doesn't benefit society. But but its all in the name of love and blood, and I respect that.

What really bothers me is that parents who are commanded by their God to LOVE, above all, would turn their children away for something that science is starting to prove they were born with. It's as much a birthright as a disability would be. But if you do believe in God and are just going to follow the old Testament and St Paul then you are hardly following the teachings of Jesus. Or in fact of a decent human being.

Okay - so someone chooses to withhold funds from their gay son or daughter. Now that is completely their choice. I'm not arguing benefits for those disowned by their families after all.

But say they go and buy pizza instead of having a 5 course wedding breakfast on their child's special day, take in Jimmy-Jo and Jamie-Bob as their hetero offspring lurch from one relationship to another or don't send a card to their daughter's partner's 40th birthday when their daughter has been with them for 20 years and the best the other siblings could manage was three... How well have they parented?

I don't expect parents to accept their children's lifestyle if they are whores, serial mamas, rapists, dug addicts etc etc. But if your child is not doing something that is outside the law and is not making any claim on you financially, then shame on you for not supporting them.

That is not supposed to a be diatribe about hetero couples or individuals, the point is that people are people when it comes down to it. With problems, issues, unpleasantness and all. To single out their sexual preference is as bad as judging someone on the colour of their hair, their height or where their Great-Grandad used to drink.

It bugs me that you would have such negative thoughts about people who were born homosexual that you suggest that your own children - having never committed a crime - are less worthy of your love and emotive support (sod the money).

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

And once again it's all about the money.

No that is your continual assumption. It is about responsiblity that parents should have for adult children.

My parents have taken me in again at the age of 36. So far at no financial cost to them, but you could easily skew it to make it sound like it will be.

Really? You don't eat their food. They don't give you money or make you pay rent? Life is not free. All adults living in the house have a responsiblity to contribute. Hey maybe you could take on some responsibility around the house and work off your stay.

But yes, they would have taken me back in if I was gay. Why? Because despite the fact their religion tells them it's not acceptable, they are my parents and they love me.

As would I. The discussion was whether or not your actions hurt your parents and family and whether or not you cared. Being gay is not some sole act that any parent should abandon their children for. I certainly would not.

How many parents take pregnant daughters back in? Provide them with free child support to enable them to have a better toehold in the employment market than those with working partners? Apparently "encouraging unmarried mothers " doesn't benefit society. But but its all in the name of love and blood, and I respect that.

As would I. But I would also make that person take complete care of that child and learn to balance work, paying for a baby sitter, and taking care of her responsiblity and failure to take precautions for an unwanted or unplanned pregnacy.

What really bothers me is that parents who are commanded by their God to LOVE, above all, would turn their children away for something that science is starting to prove they were born with. It's as much a birthright as a disability would be. But if you do believe in God and are just going to follow the old Testament and St Paul then you are hardly following the teachings of Jesus. Or in fact of a decent human being.

Again you are only talking about the gay issue. MTP opened this up to include many other things. I say that if your parents don't agree with your adult decisions that you make as an adult, don't be surprised if they don't support you. What if your super-duper religious parents find out you are a nurse working in an abortion clinic helping women terminate pregnancies? You think they will not have a problem with that or that they should just accept you back into their house? All I am saying is that there are extreme examples of behavior that can hurt your family that may elicit responses that you did not expect. And you, as an adult making those conscious decisions, must take responsibility for. Not just being gay, but that was one example where you can hurt your family.

Okay - so someone chooses to withhold funds from their gay son or daughter. Now that is completely their choice. I'm not arguing benefits for those disowned by their families after all.

It is not all about money and gaydom. It is about decisions that hurt family members or parents by adult children that they must accept responsiblity for.

But say they go and buy pizza instead of having a 5 course wedding breakfast on their child's special day, take in Jimmy-Jo and Jamie-Bob as their hetero offspring lurch from one relationship to another or don't send a card to their daughter's partner's 40th birthday when their daughter has been with them for 20 years and the best the other siblings could manage was three... How well have they parented?

The best they could have. If you are already 40 years old and you are still blaming your parents for your decisions you have much bigger issues than what your parents did or didnot do as parents.

I don't expect parents to accept their children's lifestyle if they are whores, serial mamas, rapists, dug addicts etc etc. But if your child is not doing something that is outside the law and is not making any claim on you financially, then shame on you for not supporting them.

Who is to judge that? You? With your generally liberal approach to life? Who gets to draw the line? What if your adult child of 38 was on her third divorce with 4 kids and could not stop screwing around on her husbands. Is it your job to mortgage your future and give up everything you have to support her bad decisions and continual bad behavior. Please. There are so many examples of young adults today not accepting responsiblity for their bad decisions. I would certainly help the children as much as I could, but the mother would have to figure things out. She has to be responsible for her actions.

That is not supposed to a be diatribe about hetero couples or individuals, the point is that people are people when it comes down to it. With problems, issues, unpleasantness and all. To single out their sexual preference is as bad as judging someone on the colour of their hair, their height or where their Great-Grandad used to drink.

It bugs me that you would have such negative thoughts about people who were born homosexual that you suggest that your own children - having never committed a crime - are less worthy of your love and emotive support (sod the money).

I have no idea where you came up with the idea that I:

1. "have such negative thoughts about people who were born (if you believe that) homosexual" I have family extended family members who are gay. I don't treat them any differently than any of my other family members.

2. "that my own children have never committed a crime"Ah, but they have, although they were quite minor, it changes nothing.

3. "are less worthy of love and emotive support"You obviously have not been paying attention. I never said anywhere that one would be less worthy of love and emotive support, in fact quite the contrary.

I only said that their actions can hurt parents and family and that they must accept the risk and responsibility that goes along with those actions. In some cases family may withdraw material support and they should not be surprised by the results.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I only said that their actions can hurt parents and family and that they must accept the risk and responsibility that goes along with those actions. In some cases family may withdraw material supportand they should not be surprised by the results.

Actually you originally said:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I think if parents and family are not comfortable with choices you make as teens and young adults and you ignore other peoples feelings who support you, then you should really not be surprised when you loose that support, emotional, financial, educational, etc. So yea, you can hurt those around you, even if you don't mean to do it.

Which is what I was arguing mainly with you. That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, then by that action it shows their lack of love for you. Even if they don't agree with your lifestyle choice, your parents especially, have the responsibility to love you and support you in any way necessary. It doesn't matter if they agree or not, if its against their religion or not. No, perhaps a person should not be surprised if their family pulls support when they come out. That depends on the family, BUT that doesn't mean the family is not in the wrong. If the family is hurt by you being yourself in that way, then that is all on the family. They let themselves be hurt because they are too close minded to care that that is YOU, that you cannot act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person.
That has been all I have been saying, or trying to say at least.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

MTP opened this up to include many other things.

I did let you get me off on a tangent.

YOU keep bringing it back to money. I have already said, I've been financially independent since 18, by my own choice. My parent's didn't kick me out, although I might have killed my mom if I had stayed at the time, but I chose to move out. Even before that in high school I was supporting myself in ways most parents wouldn't make their children. I had to pay for my college classes and books even back then.

I'm gonna repeat one more time for you (a bit differently): support and success do not only mean money or finacial.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, then by that action it shows their lack of love for you.

Not necessarily. The amount of support given (I assume you are referring to financial here) does not equate with their love for the child. It seems as though you hav a very unusual set of circumstances within your situation. I still don't realy get what they are, but your parents love should never be based upon the amount of financial support they give you. Ya can't buy love. Emotional support is a totally different matter. Parents should invariably support their children in whatever endeavors the child chooses. Unless it is unhealthy, dangerous or illegal. Again though, I am not certain that these are really relevant to their love. Different parents parent differently.

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I had to pay for my college classes and books even back then.

Many children pay for their own tuition and/or books. I don't understand the relevance.

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I'm gonna repeat one more time for you (a bit differently): support and success do not only mean money or finacial.

What are you saying then? What are you looking for from your parents that they are apparently not providing, in your opinion?

When I was a teenager, I absolutely hated my father, or thought I did. I thought he favored my older brothers and gave them things that I didn't get. I believed that he talked to them about things and spent more time with them than with me. I carried a lot of ill conceived resentment toward him for many years. I had no idea what his motives were until I was much older and we talked it out. Only then after I matured did I understand his position and reasoning.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by classicman

The amount of support given (I assume you are referring to financial here) does not equate with their love for the child. It seems as though you hav a very unusual set of circumstances within your situation. I still don't realy get what they are, but your parents love should never be based upon the amount of financial support they give you. Ya can't buy love.

NO, I was specifically saying, again, that it IS NOT about finacial only. PLEASE classic read more carefully.

Originally Posted by classicman

Emotional support is a totally different matter. Parents should invariably support their children in whatever endeavors the child chooses. Unless it is unhealthy, dangerous or illegal. Again though, I am not certain that these are really relevant to their love. Different parents parent differently.

Again, that is what I said. That was my point.

Originally Posted by classicman

Many children pay for their own tuition and/or books. I don't understand the relevance.

I said, it was in HIGH SCHOOL. You would make your child pay college tuition when their in high school still? They made me pay for my own college, even though I explained to them that it saved time and money. I take the college course, I get dual credit (high school credit as well), therefore I wouldn't have to take essentially the same class over. They thought it was a waste, so the only way I could get it was by paying myself. BTW: My sis did the same thing, except they paid for it.

Originally Posted by classicman

What are you saying then? What are you looking for from your parents that they are apparently not providing, in your opinion?

When I was a teenager, I absolutely hated my father, or thought I did. I thought he favored my older brothers and gave them things that I didn't get. I believed that he talked to them about things and spent more time with them than with me. I carried a lot of ill conceived resentment toward him for many years. I had no idea what his motives were until I was much older and we talked it out. Only then after I matured did I understand his position and reasoning.

I am looking for the support that they clearly give my older brother and sister, and do not give me. Of course according to my older bro I "get away with things he never could." I don't know what those things are. He "got away with" wrecking 2 cars by pulling stupid stunts, living with a woman out of wedlock, sleeping around (before he got married), smoking cigarettes, smoking weed (in the house), underage drinking, drinking and driving....
Point is, I've done none of those things, except living with my partner out of wedlock. My parents have now let him move back twice w/o any conditions. I was supposed to move back (finalized it in mar with them), and instead they let him come back(in Oct he decided to get a car instead a of a house loan), therefore I can't.
Although, I don't think money=love. But the fact that they give them financial support I don't get, shows something is lacking, and its not me. To top it off, anything I try to do/want to do, gets shot down without question. The other two don't get nearly as much negativity about their ability to succeed as I do. If they do, my parent's choose to do it privately, whereas they don't mind publicly humiliating me.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

Which is what I was arguing mainly with you. That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, then by that action it shows their lack of love for you. Even if they don't agree with your lifestyle choice, your parents especially, have the responsibility to love you and support you in any way necessary. It doesn't matter if they agree or not, if its against their religion or not. No, perhaps a person should not be surprised if their family pulls support when they come out. That depends on the family, BUT that doesn't mean the family is not in the wrong. If the family is hurt by you being yourself in that way, then that is all on the family. They let themselves be hurt because they are too close minded to care that that is YOU, that you cannot act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person.
That has been all I have been saying, or trying to say at least.

So what would you say then to my grandmother who divorced my grandfather because he was an alcoholic? She tried to stick it out and support his efforts to get sober, but in the end she couldn't take any more and gave him ultimatum: me and the kids or alcohol. He chose to keep drinking and she left. Was she in the wrong for ending her support? He was addicted to alcohol and could not "act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person". Should she have been infinitely tolerant and accepting of his addiction because that's who he was? Supporting him even though he did horrible things that alcoholics tend to do and chose not to seriously change his lifestyle?

Or how about this: my parents paid for my brother's university education. He was expelled for failing 3 semesters and hid this fact from my parents until the day before we were planning on driving down for the graduation ceremonies. My parents were understandably furious at him for lying to them and deceiving them, wasting so much of their time, money, emotional and academic support on someone who didn't care enough to go to class. This was 2 almost two years ago and now he works temp agency jobs in an economically depressed area and is unwilling to move because of his friends in the area. Should my parents now be willing to give him all that support they once gave if he started taking classes again? After he lied, deceived, and took advantage of their trust and support before? Why should we, his family, go that extra mile if he is unwilling to uphold his end of the bargain and not be lazy?

There are limitations to what people can tolerate and should be expected to tolerate, just as there are limitations to how much support one family members needs to extend to another depending upon the situation.