The only way to win an argument

[BigV]

Originally Posted by monster

It's unpredictable and the fluff is avoidable if you're not in the mood and available by the bucketload if you are.

Understatement of the week.

Oooh.. new thread idea!

[Cloud]

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with the vicissitudes of forums and try not to take it personally. You can never tell which threads take off--like this one!

[Cloud]

fluff is good. You notice I tend to avoid the current events and politics threads, LOL!

[monster]

Originally Posted by Cloud

You can never tell which threads take off--like this one!

That's 'cause the rest of us can't resist a good argument :p

[footfootfoot]

So there.

[Cloud]

interesting that the argument thread has more action than the beautiful women thread.

[Shawnee123]

lol...that's because beauty is in the eye of the bebitcher!

[Cloud]

Summary of: How to Win friends, yadda yadda:

Fundamental Techniques in Handling People:

* "Don't criticize, condemn or complain."
* "Give people a feeling of importance; praise the good parts of them."
* "Get the other person to want to do what you want them to by arousing their desires."


Six Ways to Make People Like You:

* "Become genuinely interested in other people."
* "Smile."
* "Remember that a man's name is to him the sweetest and most important sound in any language."
* "Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves."
* "Talk in the terms of the other man's interest."
* "Make the other person feel important and do it sincerely."


Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking:

* "Avoid arguments."
* "Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never tell someone they are wrong."
* "If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically."
* "Begin in a friendly way."
* "Start with questions the other person will answer yes to."
* "Let the other person do the talking."
* "Let the other person feel the idea is his/hers."
* "Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view."
* "Sympathize with the other person."
* "Appeal to noble motives."
* "Dramatize your ideas."
* "Throw down a challenge."

Nine Ways to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment:

* "Begin with praise and honest appreciation."
* "Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly."
* "Talk about your own mistakes first."
* "Ask questions instead of giving direct orders."
* "Let the other person save face."
* "Praise every improvement."
* "Give them a fine reputation to live up to."
* "Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct."
* "Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest."

[elSicomoro]

The Cellar used to be more debate-heavy back in the day. Some of it was good, but a lot of it was chest-thumping, IMO. People wanting to be right at any cost--name calling, humiliation, etc. I tried to be respectful, but inevitably, I too became disrespectful at times.

I'm finally at a good place now--I enjoy debating, but try to make sure I do it for the sake of good talk, not to "win." And I pick and choose my battles better, and know when to walk away.

Yeah, now everyone takes everything personally... to the point of making everything about them. It is sad and indicative of an epidemic of something I consider insanity. (yes, literally)
If it did not happen to you, will not be happening to you... it is NOT about you.

Cloud, I don't want broken friends & I don't give a fuck if I offend someone if I'm right and was not intentionally rude. People ARE accountable for their emotions, always, period.

[Cloud]

I don't think I want broken friends, either.

Like when they fall (or been pushed) down the cellar stairs and they're lying there . . . all broken.

Originally Posted by glatt

I'm not trying to attack you here, so I hope you don't take this personally. I clicked on posts you have made, and only had to go back to last night before I found an example.

In the unpopular opinions thread you said:


Now the first sentence is an attack against democracy. An attack against an idea. No problem there. Everyone here does that - attacks ideas. But in the second sentence, you personalized it.

By saying that no true American wants democracy, you are saying that anyone who wants democracy is not a true American. If I am a person who considers myself a true American, and I also want a democracy, you have just insulted me.

You make statements like this with regularity, which means you are insulting groups with regularity. Eventually, you get around to insulting almost everyone here.

What group? Democracy is mob rule and an unmanageable, impractical idea. You make it work for me, where minorities (not the PC, bullshit, definition, but real minorities) are not just slaves and fodder for the majority and I'll listen to you.
But, it is a fact.
Again, your response is not based in fact. Show me someone sane who REALLY wants true mob rule?

Cloud, people who need to be handled with kid-gloves and don't want you to be honest with them are broken.
BTW, by your definition, I am broken.

[Cloud]

I've fallen and I can't get up!

[Hime]

Hmm.

I used to have very low self-esteem, which caused me to do everything I could to make people like me. I avoided arguments like the plague, complimented everyone constantly, and treated everyone who was willing to spend time with me like a close friend. Online, I stuck to "fluff" discussions, flirted, posted pictures and acted like a "good girl" because that was what was expected of me. It made me happy that I was "popular" -- when I wanted to go out, I had all kinds of people to go out with, and when I wanted to stay in and go online, lots of people sent me messages.

A couple of years ago I had some experiences that forced me to re-evaluate this strategy. I realized that the people I'd thought of as "friends" didn't really respect or value me, and were not there when I most needed them. Why not? Not because they didn't like me -- because they didn't KNOW me. I'd never really shared my feelings or opinions because I didn't want to risk losing the happy cloud of people around me.

So I made a conscious decision to stand up for myself, express my views and not be afraid to disagree with others. It is not always easy for me because my instinct is to be timid, but I am much happier when I am willing to argue. It doesn't mean that I won't *listen* to other views, but I have been told by others in many cases that my opinions have made them consider a new point of view, rethink their personal prejudices, and change the way they view the world. That motivates me to do my best to express myself and challenge views and paradigms that I disagree with. I don't do so because I want to hurt people or make them admit that they are "wrong," but because I believe that, like everyone else, I have my own unique point of view that is well worth putting out there.

On the other hand, if you're talking about factual arguments like "who won the battle of tripoli?" or "who was the first actor to play Darren on Bewitched?," then yeah, that will make you look like an asshole if it's with anyone other than the kind of friends/family members who have that kind of conversation for fun.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

What group? Democracy is mob rule and an unmanageable, impractical idea. You make it work for me, where minorities (not the PC, bullshit, definition, but real minorities) are not just slaves and fodder for the majority and I'll listen to you.
But, it is a fact.
Again, your response is not based in fact. Show me someone sane who REALLY wants true mob rule?

What I am saying is that when you say something that amounts to "anyone who is in favor of democracy is un-American", you are going to insult some people. A lot of people out there think they are in favor of democracy. Probably the majority of Americans. Those same people probably think they are pro-American. If you mean to have a political science discussion about what "democracy" means, then by all means, have that discussion. But when you make a simple statement in black and white drawing a battle line between groups of people, you are going to insult some people.