Global Warming Poll

[glatt]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I think the following two answers are saying pretty much the same thing...

We're partially responsible, but it's natural anyway AND
We're making it happen quicker

Not to dump on Ali, but the poll was poorly worded.

Humans are pumping carbon out of the deep ground and throwing it into the air. This is causing an unbalance in the naturally occurring carbon cycle. There is natural fluctuation in the climate, but our actions are moving the climate past the normal balance. Past the tipping point.

That's my position. And using that position, I voted that "Yes - it's all our fault" but I could have used the same reasoning to vote for "We're partially responsible, but it's natural anyway" or "We're making it happen quicker."

And of course, I would also have voted for "There's not enough evidence" because I would like to see more evidence. The only problem is that to get that evidence, we need to continue down what appears to be a terrible path. Better to change the path now, for a multitude of reasons.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Yes, but there is no practical way to undue what has already happened.

Of course there is. Number one, stop doing what we're doing to cause it... number 2, find ways to clean it up. (there is very good evidence that mushrooms can be used to clean up toxic things in the evironment, for example). number 3, do something different to get better, cleaner results.

Don't you know the definition of insanity?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by glatt

Humans are pumping carbon out of the deep ground and throwing it into the air. This is causing an unbalance in the naturally occurring carbon cycle. There is natural fluctuation in the climate, but our actions are moving the climate past the normal balance.

And of course, I would also have voted for "There's not enough evidence" because I would like to see more evidence. The only problem is that to get that evidence, we need to continue down what appears to be a terrible path. Better to change the path now, for a multitude of reasons.

You are quite articulate glatt - excellent post. You must have done some Vulcan mind meld I agree. Except I chose the "There's not enough evidence" as my answer in the poll.

[Aliantha]

Well the poll was poorly worded because really that's the point. No matter what your stance on this issue, there's so much contrary evidence to support other positions as well.

I didn't word it poorly on purpose, but it seems that no matter what questions were asked, we'd have come up with the same answers...just as we do when we debate the issue.

[sugarpop]

What kills me is even people who think we are contributing to the problem don't think we need to take any kind of action to help slow it down or stop it. No, let's just keep digging for oil, and building dirty coal plants, and throwing toxic chemical into the air we breathe *cough*cough* or the water we drink. Don't worry that chronic and autoimmune illnesses are on the rise, or that certain species are dying off (indicator species), or that insect proliferation is on the rise because of the rise in temperature (and that is definitely NOT a good sign), or that some of the forests are dying off because they don't get to burn, like they should, or the ice and glaciers are drastically melting.... I could go on and on.

On another note, and pretty scary, Rachel Maddow reported this last week about several of our nuclear power plants. Scary stuff.
Next up: This here is the Indian Point nuclear plant. It‘s located 45 miles north of New York City. And Indian Point is a little bit accident-prone. Back in 2000, an old steam generator ruptured, releasing a small amount of radioactive steam into the air. In year 2005, water laced with the radioactive element called tritium leaked from a spent fuel pool.

And today, we learned a burst pipe has spurted out 100,000 gallons of water at the nuclear facility. We still do not know when the leak began, only that the pipe in question is buried deep underground. Not a single visual inspection of the underground pipes has taken place since operations began in 1973.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission doesn‘t require inspections like that. Similar problems with aging underground pipes have occurred at the Byron, Braidwood and Dresden twin-reactor plants in Illinois and at the Palo Verde plant in Arizona. All this to say, if you were looking for something legal and non-habit-forming to keep you up all night this weekend, you‘re welcome.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30561015/

See, that is why I am against nuclear power plants in this country. The people who build things for the public good, like the power grid and running water, the infrastructure is crumbling. The people who own them make billions of dollars, but they don't upgrade them or keep them in very working order. IF they actually DO take the time and spend the money, then they jack up our rates, so we are the ones who end up paying for it, either in rate hikes or in subsidized taxpayer money. Why is that? Why should the people have to pay for a company upgrading the things they need to in order to provide a service? But they don't. They NEVER upgrade until they are forced to. So, until the corporations take responsibilty for their technology and their hardware, I do not trust anyone to build and maintain nuclear power plants. Maybe if we brought over some French companies, then I might be OK with it. But trust American businessmen to do? Nope. I surely do NOT.

[piercehawkeye45]

The reason they don't get upgraded is because no company is stupid enough to actually do it because of the liability. If nuclear energy started to become more widespread, that would *hopefully* change.

But the reasoning is legit...it would be like trusting businessmen with the waste water treatment process!

[classicman]

Maybe we should all just use candles and ride horses or camels.

Maybe if we brought over some French companies, then I might be OK with it. But trust American businessmen to do? Nope. I surely do NOT.

Maybe you should move to France.

[piercehawkeye45]

Huh?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

Maybe we should all just use candles and ride horses or camels.



Maybe you should move to France.

Why can't we just train and educate people about ETHICS in this country so they will do the right thing? THEN I wouldn't have a problem with it. And you know, we CAN go completely green with technology that is safe. It IS possible. Go to T Boone Pickens website and the RePower America website and take a look around.

I would probably really like France, except that everyone over there smokes, and I detest cigarettes.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

The reason they don't get upgraded is because no company is stupid enough to actually do it because of the liability. If nuclear energy started to become more widespread, that would *hopefully* change.

But the reasoning is legit...it would be like trusting businessmen with the waste water treatment process!

And I have a real problem with people who own/run corporations that they don't keep up to date with the infrastructure, because then it causes all kinds of problems, and guess who gets stuck with the bill to clean it up? that's right, WE do. So how is that in any way capitalism? Hmmmm? They keep the profits, we pay to clean up the mess, and after that they hike up their prices so they make even MORE money, and it's for something they didn't even pay for or have to do themselves. It makes me sick. (doesn't make any sense? I'm kinda out of it this morning.)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

And today, we learned a burst pipe has spurted out 100,000 gallons of water at the nuclear facility. We still do not know when the leak began, only that the pipe in question is buried deep underground. Not a single visual inspection of the underground pipes has taken place since operations began in 1973.

You're afraid of water?
Indian point is a Westinghouse Pressurized Water Reactor. Unlike the General Electric Boiling Water reactors, the PWR has two water loops. One loop goes through the reactor (and becomes contaminated) then passes the heat to the second loop in a heat exchanger. The second loop (uncontaminated) runs the steam turbines that turn the generators.

I personally guarantee no part of the contaminated loop is buried. I doubt it was part of the second loop either because a leak would be noticed immediately when the water (condensate) coming back to the boiler (heat exchanger) did not equal the steam sent out. They would have to make up the difference with heavily treated (expensive) water.

I'd bet the buried pipe was carrying cooling water for the condenser (actually a third loop if you will) that turns the spent steam back into condensate quickly. Cooling water is returned to it's source, usually a river or lake, as clean as it came out, and after passing through the cooling tower, just a little warmer.

Don't get excited about headlines until you know the details... or tw will bitchslap you.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Why can't we just train and educate people about ETHICS in this country so they will do the right thing?

That is not possible in the human race. It will not happen here and it does not happen in the rest of the world. Power and money trumps ethics in everyday life.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

And I have a real problem with people who own/run corporations that they don't keep up to date with the infrastructure, because then it causes all kinds of problems,

I agree with you but in this situation, most of the corporations that produced parts for nuclear energy have gone out of business and no company want to take over because then they would be responsible for any problems.

They keep the profits, we pay to clean up the mess, and after that they hike up their prices so they make even MORE money, and it's for something they didn't even pay for or have to do themselves. It makes me sick. (doesn't make any sense? I'm kinda out of it this morning.)

That is why strict regulations are needed. If it is more profitable for companies to be as clean as possible, they will be extremely efficient at doing that.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I'd bet the buried pipe was carrying cooling water for the condenser (actually a third loop if you will) that turns the spent steam back into condensate quickly. Cooling water is returned to it's source, usually a river or lake, as clean as it came out, and after passing through the cooling tower, just a little warmer.

That leaking pipe was extremely clean water. No radiation. No contaminants. Cleaner than anything found in the Hudson.

Always take 'fears' about Indian Point with caution. Unlike other nuclear plants, even the slightest problem in Indian Point gets hyped and heavily reported. BTW, Indian Point is owned by a state corporation - not power companies.

Keep it in perspective. Reports of a hole in containment dome in the First Energy's Davis Besse reactor outside Toledo that also had a potential Three Mile Island problem. It gets about as much press as a broken (clean) water pipe in Indian Point. But First Energy had a history of lying repeatedly and often - even about the NE blackout that they created. A broken water pipe in a First Energy plant should attract your attention. Because if it did get reported, then it is probably serious.

Other nuclear plants have events. But leaking water that would only make the Hudson River cleaner gets too much press only because it is Indian Point.

Of far greater worry is all that spent uranium sitting in cooling ponds at every nuclear plant with no place to put it. So much fuel that many reactor sites must build more pools. But that far more serious problem gets no press.

[tw]

From the NY Times of 10 May 2009:

China Emerges as a Leader in Clean Coal Technology
China’s frenetic construction of coal-fired power plants has raised worries around the world about the effect on climate change. China now uses more coal than the United States, Europe and Japan combined, making it the world’s largest emitter of gases that are warming the planet.

But largely missing in the hand-wringing is this: China has emerged in the past two years as the world’s leading builder of so-called clean coal power plants, mastering the technology and driving down the cost.

While the United States is still debating whether to build a more efficient kind of coal-fired power plant that uses extremely hot steam, China has begun building them at a rate of one a month.

Construction has stalled in the United States on a new generation of low-pollution power plants that turn coal into a gas before burning it,

Technology and research that was stifled by ... well who had science papers rewritten by White House lawyers?

How many hundreds of mistakes are being corrected? Obama has restored research in a long stifled list including coal to gas research.

Those who do today will become wealthy selling those same products to the world five and twenty years from now. Profits earned only when the product is most important. Wealth achieved when science trumps religion, political agendas, and wacko extremism.

OK, so we have lost eight years in many industries. Time to blame enemies of America so that they can no longer stifle desperately needed innovation. Change that is essential in any productive economy.

We have one fundamental problem. No viable alternative to fossil fuels exists. But then we know where the fundamental problem is. In ten gallons of gasoline, not even two gallons do productive work. China demonstrates another example of who will be wealthier ten and more years from now.

Obama destroyed another ‘stifle innovation’ agenda. Time for this nation to start acting like a leader again.