What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You answered that yourself, federal and state.

How so?

The core issue, putting aside the 4th and 14th amendment issues, is whether a state can make a law that the Constitution says is solely the prerogative of Congress....and there is something called the Supremacy Clause as well which often comes into play when determining the constitutionality of state laws.

If illegal immigration can only be a federal crime, then it raises question about a state law that makes illegal immigration a state crime.

I am not suggestion that it applies in this case. I dont know, but some constitutional experts believe it does apply and I think it is a legitimate question. The federal judiciary should make that determination.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You asked what is bothering conservatives. I told you. I'm not defending their position.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You asked what is bothering conservatives. I told you. I'm not defending their position.

Ah...I get it now.

They are big on states rights....until a state legislates in a manner they dont like. Then they wave the Constitution.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

By the way, they rewrote the law, for Jinx.

That's bullshit political correctness. Just because the law says you can't racially profile doesn't mean it won't happen any more than laws against unethical behavior by our legislators work. You'd think people could understand that.

Originally Posted by Redux

Ah...I get it now.

They are big on states rights....until a state legislates in a manner they dont like. Then they wave the Constitution.

Conservatives believe that the person closest to the decision should have the job of making the decision. Unless that person is deciding what gender to marry or whether to have an abortion. Then it's the conservatives' job to make the decision.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Just because the law says you can't racially profile doesn't mean it won't happen any more than laws against unethical behavior by our legislators work.

You know why the American government didn't put German immigrants into internment camps like they did for the Japanese immigrants during WWII? Because there were just too dang many of them. If you had walked down an urban street in the southwest recently, you would realize that if the police were using nothing but skin color to determine suspicion, they'd never finish the job.

If this law had been enacted in Ohio, then I'd say yes, there would absolutely be racial profiling going on. Down here, Hispanics are like 30% of the population. Too many to profile on any meaningful generalized level.

[lumberjim]

I'm wondering why some of you seem to WANT to be upset by this. And why it is the 'Liberals' that seem to have the biggest objections.

How is this a Liberal vs Conservative issue at all? is it just habit?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

All of them?

Many legal experts who have expressed concern about the law have only the Constitution in mind.

sure they do.

You can ignore the legal issues and attempt to make it all about politics and money. As convenient as it might be to deflect the argument away from the legal questions, that in itself is acting politically.

First off, I am not ignoring the legal issues. Secondly, everything about this is political. If you don't think it is, you are sadly mistaken or ...
Something needs to be done. Arizona has asked the current and past administrations for help. They ignored them. Now they are doing something to solve the problem. That's a good thing. Is it constitutional - dunno, thats for the lawyers to decide. Either way, it certainly has brought the illegal immigration to the forefront.

I honestly dont understand what is so wrong with having the federal judiciary determine the constitutionality of the AZ law . Perhaps you can explain why that would be so bad.

Where did I say it would? You're very good at wording your comments, much like a politician, where claims are put onto another person/poster when they weren't made by that person/poster.

As an aside:
While not pointing any fingers here, [/quote]
Pulease

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Conservatives believe that the person closest to the decision should have the job of making the decision. Unless that person is deciding what gender to marry or whether to have an abortion. Then it's the conservatives' job to make the decision.

To quote you - That's bullshit.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

And why it is the 'Liberals' that seem to have the biggest objections.

How is this a Liberal vs Conservative issue at all?

VOTES which equals power and control.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I'm wondering why some of you seem to WANT to be upset by this. And why it is the 'Liberals' that seem to have the biggest objections.

How is this a Liberal vs Conservative issue at all? is it just habit?

Liberals fear the police state as conservatives fear the regulatory state, that is the habit part. Politically, this is just Republicans pandering to their base, once again tying to make the liberals look anti-American while at the same time getting the jump on the Democrat's up-coming Federal immigration legislation. The racist part is mostly to get liberals upset enough to vote, but there is a core group of racists in the Republican party who will be soothed by a States Rights push that will only impact brown people, if you ignore the budget blowing incarceration aspect of the thing.

How much more dangerous does this make the policeman's job? Traffic stops become high stakes situations.

Originally Posted by classicman

sure they do.


First off, I am not ignoring the legal issues. Secondly, everything about this is political. If you don't think it is, you are sadly mistaken or ...
Something needs to be done. Arizona has asked the current and past administrations for help. They ignored them. Now they are doing something to solve the problem. That's a good thing. Is it constitutional - dunno, thats for the lawyers to decide. Either way, it certainly has brought the illegal immigration to the forefront.


Where did I say it would? You're very good at wording your comments, much like a politician, where claims are put onto another person/poster when they weren't made by that person/poster.

As an aside:
While not pointing any fingers here,

Pulease

Do you ever give politicians credit for acting altruistically? Or in this case, legal experts with nothing to gain.

I certainly have never seen it.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by jinx

I'd love to hear one.
Personally, I'd like to see home-grown drugs (specifically pot, no one should be dying or going to jail over pot) controls relaxed, freeing up money to spend on stopping the imported poison. Asking nicely won't work unfortunately.

This is a good place to start. Stiff pot taxes could pay for a lot of anti-chemical programming.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by classicman

... Arizona has asked the current and past administrations for help. They ignored them....

See? It's all Bush's fault!

Originally Posted by classicman

To quote you - That's bullshit.

You really don't think that's true? Think about it....

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

You really don't think that's true? Think about it....

I would also suggest to Classic that he rethink his assertion that ALL of those legal experts, local officials, police chiefs, etc. who have expressed concern about the law have done so for political or financial reasons.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Griff

The racist part is mostly to get liberals upset enough to vote, but there is a core group of racists in the Republican party who will be soothed by a States Rights push that will only impact brown people, if you ignore the budget blowing incarceration aspect of the thing.

Is it possibly, in your mind, for someone to want immigration law enforced and not be a racist?
Is is possible to believe that illegal immigration is a problem, moreso for some areas than others, and that legislating law enforcement tools to deal with it is an attempt at reducing the problem, and not simple pandering?

How much more dangerous does this make the policeman's job? Traffic stops become high stakes situations.

They already are, and not just in AZ.

[skysidhe]

Yes like over population. This video about the immigration problem, as far as over population goes, and sustainability was made in 1996. It is sure to piss some people off.

Watched it yesterday after following someones link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ