Geneva Conventions

[DanaC]

Every piece of furniture I have in my house is swedish....the porn's all Dutch :P

[Yelof]

Swedish free love

Anyone ever see the Swedish film Together it is cool, and a friend of mine's cousin stars in it.

[tw]

Originally posted by depmats
I don't think Clinton was the worst president ever. I do believe he has been overrated to a large degree. He treated the US military like dogshit.

Under Clinton, the military loved what they got. Give Clinton a problem, provide him with the reasons, then he would ask probing and incite questions, and (most important) make a decision. Those in the military who got caught without a well thought out proposal did get their ass handed to him.

As a result, under Clinton, the B-1 and B-2 bombers finally got fixed. Both $multi-billion warplane were useless for most of their 20 and 10 years previously. Under Clinton, the carriers finally got fixed - having demonstrated during the Kuwait war that they were not functional weapons of a coordinated military.

Under Clinton, expensive ships such as the entire Missouri class were decommissioned to be replaced by just as functional destroyers and cruisers. Entire Army functions were integrated with Air Force units to make a truly mobile and fast reaction force. Unfortunately, even under Clinton, the Republicans got a classic piece of useless pork - ie the C130J instead of more desperately needed C-17s.

Given a need to coordinate the Hati invasion, under Clinton, something new happened. Army was delivered to the battle on the USS JFK. Previously not even possible. The Navy's crown jewel was instead used to deliver soldiers and helicopters. Such cooperation just was not possible in days before Clinton.

Overall, the military loved Clinton because a smart military man could make his case and Clinton actually understood those facts. Compare this to a boondoogle that even top experts say does not work - George Jr's Star Wars system being built in Alaska. God knows bin Laden will some day launch a nuclear missile at us. Its good to know we have this defense. Yes, good military men needed more armoured HumVees and armour plated body armour. However they got a real expensive Star Wars system instead. You can imagine how well this goes down with smart military men.

To find reasons for a military dislike of Clinton, one must spend too much time listening the Rush Limbaugh propaganda. However listen to the retired Generals. They don't like George Jr and don't like the micromanager Rumsfeld.

[LN]

Anyone ever see the Swedish film Together it is cool, and a friend of mine's cousin stars in it.

*sticks hand in air* I vaguely remember something like that... once...

[depmats]

[quote]Originally posted by tw
[b]Under Clinton, the military loved what they got.


How could you say that the military loved Clinton? Just as anecdotal as you pointing to R & D improvements in weapons platforms - I can point to the people on the ground, who most assuredly didn't like Clinton.

The Delta, Ranger, and USAF SpecFor guys in Somalia who were sent in without the equipment they had asked for as being necessary to do their job. They were refused based on an aversion to looking bad to the rest of the world. Even crewchiefs on USAF cargo planes that were delivering the food were shot at because they weren't given the protection required for the the situation.
Then the wounded who did survive the battle didn't even receive a visit from the president or his staff until one was requested?

How about the soldier's who were court-martialed for refusing to wear the powder-blue UN berets and helmets, and the UN patch OVER the US flag?

US troops stationed in KSA in the mid-90's being told not to wear their uniforms in town - as they didn't want to send the wrong message to the locals? (in contrast, earlier in the century US forces were required to where their uniforms off base as a banner that said "don't F with this one.")

Bombing of the Khobar towers with no response from the US?

The continual downsizing of our fighting forces throughout the 90's?

The Marine honor guard forced to put on smocks and hand out hors d'eaurves (sp?) at White House events?

I am not saying that the military was burning Clinton in effigy - but to say that they loved him is absolutely rediculous.

Bush is not faultless but his screw-ups generally have not been seen as a slap in the face to the guys on the ground.

[glatt]

Who dragged the U.S. into Somalia again? Oh yeah, it was the first Bush. With no exit strategy. Like father like son. You can't blame Clinton for that mess. He did the best he could in an unwinnable situation. He should have pulled out sooner. That was his only big mistake.

Soldiers disobeying legal orders got court martialed? Sounds fair to me.

I don't know firsthand about the local leave policy in KSA, Hell, I don't even know what KSA is, but I imagine that Bill Clinton didn't come up with it. You will need to give more information on that to convince me.

I agree, a strong response againt the Khobar bombing would have been nice. Don't see how that has anything to do with the military though.

Downsizing of the military. I always love it when you folks drag that one out and fail to mention that it was the first Bush and then Sec. Defence Cheney who initailly downsized the military when they were in office before Clinton. The vast majority of the downsizing was done by Bush & Co., not Clinton.

Marine honor guard putting on smocks?! Where do you get this stuff?

I think serving in an unwinnable war, without the support you need from your leaders, while having your return date constantly pushed back, when you only signed up for two weekends a month, is much, much, much worse than anything Clinton ever did to the military.

I agree with you that the military didn't love Clinton. But that doesn't mean they like Bush II. They loathe Bush II. You have retired generals coming out against Bush. You never had that under Clinton. And don't get me started on all the scapegoats they are trying to prosecute in the prison scandal so the leadership doesn't have to take the blame. The prison policy came from the White House.

-Edited a couple of the really bad spelling mistakes.

[blue]

Clinton understood that and he had the respect of the world.

I can't remember who posted this, but it was a bad joke right?

Clinton was the most embarassing thing to happen to our nation in decades.

I think the Abu Grhaib photos will cost many WESTERN lives for decades.

But the Clinton embarrasment has already demeaned the US, and will for awhile.....slick willy made it aceptable to be a scumbag, escpecially to the younger generation who were already forcefed by television and the press that anything goes, just don't hurt anybodies feelings.

Sorry for the spelling & grammar & such, I'm pissed and my keyboard sucks...espeially the "" key.

[Happy Monkey]

"the world", not "the puritans".

[blue]

Something wrong with having some morals?

[elSicomoro]

When you force them upon others, absolutely.

[Yelof]

As the lone superpower America must show restraint or be blamed for all the worlds ills, Clinton understood that and he had the respect of the world.

You've got to put the quote in context, Clinton tried to work with the world, when he spoke to other nations you could tell he understood what he was saying and could really talk with the principle players. You might not agree what he was doing but you could understand the process.

Nobody outside America gave much of a shit about the Monica thing, if there was embarrassment to be had there it should be had by those who insisted on putting their nation through a pointless witch hunt.

Clinton was capable, intelligent and made some attempt of at least going through the process of being fair.

You might return that you couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks, I would think such a view shortsighted and would end with a US isolated from a world she depends upon as much as it depends on her

[DanaC]

Splendid Isolation loses it's sheen after a while. It's also interesting to see a Body politic so completely unhook itself from the moral/ethical counterbalances which other nation states can provide. With the couplings fully loosed this is a State which is free to drift into a moral hinterland without ever having to feel itself to be anywhere but the moral highground.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by DanaC
Splendid Isolation loses it's sheen after a while. It's also interesting to see a Body politic so completely unhook itself from the moral/ethical counterbalances which other nation states can provide. With the couplings fully loosed this is a State which is free to drift into a moral hinterland without ever having to feel itself to be anywhere but the moral highground.

Very poetic. I concur.

Originally posted by blue58


.....slick willy made it aceptable to be a scumbag, escpecially to the younger generation who were already forcefed by television and the press that anything goes, just don't hurt anybodies feelings.

Sorry for the spelling & grammar & such, I'm pissed and my keyboard sucks...espeially the "" key.

A small historical note: Actually, I think Richard Milhaus Nixon takes the honor of being the first scumbag president, and the older generation got to watch a lot of TV, as well. I (and many others) were not impressed, nor were we left with the thought that anything goes.

[DanaC]

Y'know.....I never really did understand just what all that fuss was about over the Clinton-Lewinsky affair. There are worse things a President can do in office than a tumble with an intern.....If Hilary could forgive him maybe the rest of th world could just butt out.

I would have understood it more if he'd built his political footing on the base of conservative moral family values. That would then point to hypocricy in his dealings with the electorate. What his dealings are with his nearest and dearest is his own business.

Really if thats the very best sex scandal you guys can come up with.....then frankly ya just aint tryin

The Sad Fate of Stephen Milligan Conservative MP for Eastleigh 1994

This guy was part of a government which had built it's powerbase on a "Back to Basic, Common Sense Conservative Family Values" campaign .....