The Cellar - Geneva Conventions

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Geneva Conventions

It was mentioned somewhere earlier that the US has said "Fuck the Geneva Conventions". That's stayed with me, and I was watching Anderson Cooper the other day on CNN, and he had one of the Soldier's Attorneys' on, and she said that George Bush signed into law (in 2002) something that says, in effect, that these people (the detainees) are not subject to the Geneva Conventions.

Is she referring to the patriot act I?

I found an article from January 2002 about Gitmo, and reading it now just saddens me.

Link

and quote:

Quote:

Emphasis mine

(New York, January 11, 2002) -- Human Rights Watch questioned Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld´s statement today that captured fighters from Afghanistan shipped to Cuba were “unlawful combatants” not entitled to protection under the Geneva Conventions. Human Rights Watch also criticized the reported use of chain-link cages to confine the detainees.

“The Secretary seems unaware of the requirements of international humanitarian law,” said Jamie Fellner, director of Human Rights Watch´s U.S. Program. “As a party to the Geneva Conventions, the United States is required to treat every detained combatant humanely, including unlawful combatants. The United States may not pick and choose among them to decide who is entitled to decent treatment.”

News reports indicate that Taliban and al-Qaeda detainees will be confined at Guantanamo Bay in small cages with chain-link sides, concrete floors and metal roofs. The cages will offer scant shelter from wind and rain. Details about sanitary and hygiene facilities are not available.

This is not the first time detainees have been held at Guantanamo Bay. In 1994, the U.S. government responded to refugee flows from Haiti and then Cuba by creating a temporary holding facility at the base. While conditions there were stark and hardly hospitable, the detainees were held in permanent hard-walled shelters.

“The proposed cages are a scandal,” said Fellner. “The United States should not be transporting detainees to Cuba until it can provide decent shelter.”

The United States is a party to the Geneva Conventions, the laws governing the treatment of persons captured during armed conflict. Every captured fighter is entitled to humane treatment, understood at a minimum to include basic shelter, clothing, food and medical attention. In addition, no detainee – even if suspected of war crimes such as the murder of civilians – may be subjected to torture, corporal punishment, or humiliating or degrading treatment. If captured fighters are tried for crimes, the trials must satisfy certain basic fair trial guarantees.

Prisoners of war (POWs) are entitled to further protections, commensurate with respect for their military status as soldiers. Indeed, the Geneva Conventions provide that prisoners of war must be quartered in conditions that meet the same general standards as the quarters available to the captor´s forces, e.g. the U.S. armed forces. In addition, POW´s prosecuted for war crimes must be tried by the same court under the same rules as the detaining country´s armed forces. In the current conflict, an Afghan POW could not be tried by the proposed military commissions, although they could be tried by an American court-martial.

Under the Geneva Conventions, captured fighters are considered prisoners of war (POWs) if they are members of an adversary state´s armed forces or are part of an identifiable militia group that abides by the laws of war. Al-Qaeda members, who neither wear identifying insignia nor abide by the laws of war, probably would not qualify. Taliban soldiers, as the armed forces of Afghanistan, may well be entitled to POW status. If there is doubt about a captured fighter's status as a POW, the Geneva Conventions require that he be treated as such until a competent tribunal determines otherwise.

I'm going to look for the Patriot Act I and II and see what it says in regards to this.

*edit: a link to the Geneva Conventions: http://www.genevaconventions.org/
a link to the Patriot Act I (2001) as passed by Congress:
http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveilla...riot_bill.html

In light of our current Gay Marriage debate, I found this interesting.

From the Patriot Act I: (empahsis mine)

Quote:

(b) SENSE OF CONGRESS- It is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the civil rights and civil liberties of all Americans, including Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia, must be protected, and that every effort must be taken to preserve their safety;

(2) any acts of violence or discrimination against any Americans be condemned; and

(3) the Nation is called upon to recognize the patriotism of fellow citizens from all ethnic, racial, and religious backgrounds.

I'm not certain, but I think it's not in the Patriot Act. I think it wasn't even a law so much as a declaration. IIRC, he just claimed executive authority, and said that Guantanimo was outside the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.

Quote:

SEC. 412. MANDATORY DETENTION OF SUSPECTED TERRORISTS; HABEAS CORPUS; JUDICIAL REVIEW.

(a) IN GENERAL- The Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq.) is amended by inserting after section 236 the following:

`MANDATORY DETENTION OF SUSPECTED TERRORISTS; HABEAS CORPUS; JUDICIAL REVIEW

`SEC. 236A. (a) DETENTION OF TERRORIST ALIENS-

`(1) CUSTODY- The Attorney General shall take into custody any alien who is certified under paragraph (3).

`(2) RELEASE- Except as provided in paragraphs (5) and (6), the Attorney General shall maintain custody of such an alien until the alien is removed from the United States. Except as provided in paragraph (6), such custody shall be maintained irrespective of any relief from removal for which the alien may be eligible, or any relief from removal granted the alien, until the Attorney General determines that the alien is no longer an alien who may be certified under paragraph (3). If the alien is finally determined not to be removable, detention pursuant to this subsection shall terminate.

`(3) CERTIFICATION- The Attorney General may certify an alien under this paragraph if the Attorney General has reasonable grounds to believe that the alien--

`(A) is described in section 212(a)(3)(A)(i), 212(a)(3)(A)(iii), 212(a)(3)(B), 237(a)(4)(A)(i), 237(a)(4)(A)(iii), or 237(a)(4)(B); or

`(B) is engaged in any other activity that endangers the national security of the United States.

`(4) NONDELEGATION- The Attorney General may delegate the authority provided under paragraph (3) only to the Deputy Attorney General. The Deputy Attorney General may not delegate such authority.

`(5) COMMENCEMENT OF PROCEEDINGS- The Attorney General shall place an alien detained under paragraph (1) in removal proceedings, or shall charge the alien with a criminal offense, not later than 7 days after the commencement of such detention. If the requirement of the preceding sentence is not satisfied, the Attorney General shall release the alien.

`(6) LIMITATION ON INDEFINITE DETENTION- An alien detained solely under paragraph (1) who has not been removed under section 241(a)(1)(A), and whose removal is unlikely in the reasonably foreseeable future, may be detained for additional periods of up to six months only if the release of the alien will threaten the national security of the United States or the safety of the community or any person.

`(7) REVIEW OF CERTIFICATION- The Attorney General shall review the certification made under paragraph (3) every 6 months. If the Attorney General determines, in the Attorney General's discretion, that the certification should be revoked, the alien may be released on such conditions as the Attorney General deems appropriate, unless such release is otherwise prohibited by law. The alien may request each 6 months in writing that the Attorney General reconsider the certification and may submit documents or other evidence in support of that request.

`(b) HABEAS CORPUS AND JUDICIAL REVIEW-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Judicial review of any action or decision relating to this section (including judicial review of the merits of a determination made under subsection (a)(3) or (a)(6)) is available exclusively in habeas corpus proceedings consistent with this subsection. Except as provided in the preceding sentence, no court shall have jurisdiction to review, by habeas corpus petition or otherwise, any such action or decision.

`(2) APPLICATION-

`(A) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, including section 2241(a) of title 28, United States Code, habeas corpus proceedings described in paragraph (1) may be initiated only by an application filed with--

`(i) the Supreme Court;

`(ii) any justice of the Supreme Court;

`(iii) any circuit judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit; or

`(iv) any district court otherwise having jurisdiction to entertain it.

`(B) APPLICATION TRANSFER- Section 2241(b) of title 28, United States Code, shall apply to an application for a writ of habeas corpus described in subparagraph (A).

`(3) APPEALS- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, including section 2253 of title 28, in habeas corpus proceedings described in paragraph (1) before a circuit or district judge, the final order shall be subject to review, on appeal, by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. There shall be no right of appeal in such proceedings to any other circuit court of appeals.

`(4) RULE OF DECISION- The law applied by the Supreme Court and the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit shall be regarded as the rule of decision in habeas corpus proceedings described in paragraph (1).

`(c) STATUTORY CONSTRUCTION- The provisions of this section shall not be applicable to any other provision of this Act.'.

(b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT- The table of contents of the Immigration and Nationality Act is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 236 the following:

`Sec. 236A. Mandatory detention of suspected terrorist; habeas corpus; judicial review.'.

(c) REPORTS- Not later than 6 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, and every 6 months thereafter, the Attorney General shall submit a report to the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate, with respect to the reporting period, on--

(1) the number of aliens certified under section 236A(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, as added by subsection (a);

(2) the grounds for such certifications;

(3) the nationalities of the aliens so certified;

(4) the length of the detention for each alien so certified; and

(5) the number of aliens so certified who--

(A) were granted any form of relief from removal;

(B) were removed;

(C) the Attorney General has determined are no longer aliens who may be so certified; or

(D) were released from detention.

“The proposed cages are a scandal,” said Fellner. “The United States should not be transporting detainees to Cuba until it can provide decent shelter

Just shoot them. It would save time, money, space, and WTF while we're at it, MY OXYGEN!

These prisoners are not there for Jwalking. And let's face it, a metal cage is probably more comfortable than the cave they were living in before.

MSNBC- The Roots of Torture

Quote:

The story begins in the months after September 11, when a small band of conservative lawyers within the Bush administration staked out a forward-leaning legal position. The attacks by Al Qaeda on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, these lawyers said, had plunged the country into a new kind of war. It was a conflict against a vast, outlaw, international enemy in which the rules of war, international treaties and even the Geneva Conventions did not apply. These positions were laid out in secret legal opinions drafted by lawyers from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, and then endorsed by the Department of Defense and ultimately by White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, according to copies of the opinions and other internal legal memos obtained by NEWSWEEK.

An interesting side note here is that Alberto Gonzales, who ultimately signed off on this, was going to be George Bush's nominee as the first Hispanic Supreme Court Justice. A funny note is that there were conservatives who did not consider him conservative enough!

Well, they got their wish. There is no way he can be approved now unless Congress becomes %75 Republican in the next 4 years.

Quote:

Indeed, the Geneva Conventions provide that prisoners of war must be quartered in conditions that meet the same general standards as the quarters available to the captor´s forces, e.g. the U.S. armed forces.

Get real. The people that wrote this crap certainly didn't. As was mentioned before, the US is the only one to have at least tried to go by this document since it was signed but all in all the language is about as realistic as utopia. Don't humiliate or degrade the prisioners, sheesh.:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally posted by depmats
These prisoners are not there for Jwalking.

Correct. In fact, many of them aren't there for any crime whatsoever!

If you would just kill them, you wouldn't have to worry about hurting their feelings and making them feel sad.

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Correct. In fact, many of them aren't there for any crime whatsoever!

Then why are they there? I don't deny that there are mistakes made, but get real. This is not a prison full of innocent by-standers. They are there for a reason.

What happened to the good old days, when you go to war - make sure that no stone sits atop another when you leave... That might be a little severe. Strike that one.

They are there for many reasons.

a) (obviously) some are guilty of crimes
b) some resisted US invasion of their country
c) some were neighbors or relatives of people in groups a or b.
d) when bounties were being paid, it was an easy way to get rid of someone you didn't like. Just turn 'em in to US troops.

In any case, it's hard to nail down precisely what they have done when the administration refuses to accuse them of anything, and resists ant effort to put them on any sort of trial.

But you and
Senator Inhofe are correct. It is extremely unlikely that they were picked up for jaywalking.

Quote:

Originally posted by depmats
Just shoot them. It would save time, money, space, and WTF while we're at it, MY OXYGEN!

These prisoners are not there for Jwalking. And let's face it, a metal cage is probably more comfortable than the cave they were living in before.

Actually many are in those prisons for far less. One thing that the right wing "we love to torture in the name of the flag" Americans must first admit. Human rights means nothing when they are so busy saving us from ourselves. So busy that they cannot even bother to act on three blunt warning of an impending bin Laden attack - because it did not conform with their doctrine. With Guantanamo tactics in use at Abu Ghraid, then 90% of those prisoners are innocent - which is why so many were being routinely released after 3 months without charges.

This is the same president who the Norwegian foreign minister said would destroy the Oslo Accords. He did so because the Oslo Accords were wrong - according to administration rhetoric. The same Sec of Defense that said repeatedly and quite publically that there was no looting in Iraq. At what point does an extremist mentality admit there is something seriously wrong and corrupt with the George Jr leadership? Just because they are right wing extremists who believe they are god's choosen administration - does that make them right?

Just another in the long list of 'guilty' terrorists held under the Guantanamo Bay concept of the Geneva Convention.

Quote:

from REUTERS
U.S. forces beat three Iraqis working for Reuters and subjected them to sexual and religious taunts and humiliation during their detention last January in a military camp near Falluja, the three said on Tuesday.

The three first told Reuters of the ordeal after their release but only decided to make it public when the U.S. military said there was no evidence they had been abused, and following the exposure of similar mistreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

An Iraqi journalist working for U.S. network NBC, who was arrested with the Reuters staff, also said he had been beaten and mistreated, NBC said on Tuesday.

Two of the three Reuters staff said they had been forced to insert a finger into their anuses and then lick it, and were forced to put shoes in their mouths, particularly humiliating in Arab culture.

All three said they were forced to make demeaning gestures as soldiers laughed, taunted them and took photographs. They said they did not want to give details publicly earlier because of the degrading nature of the abuse.

The soldiers told them they would be taken to the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, deprived them of sleep, placed bags over their heads, kicked and hit them and forced them to remain in stress positions for long periods.

The U.S. military, in a report issued before the Abu Ghraib abuse became public, said there was no evidence the Reuters staff had been tortured or abused.

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. How many open acts of anti-Americanism does it take to see these leaders as evil scum - just like the crook Richard Nixon. Guess what baby. Power corrupts. And with no one - not the Supreme Court and not even in the Cellar - complaining about Guantanamo Bay, then the Geneva Convention was long disposed of by this administration. Only tonight on PBS, another administration spokesman (an ambassador) was saying that we should be scrapping parts of the Geneva Convention because it no longer applies. America is run by god's choosen president. Therefore all those prisoners must be guilty of something - like being Arab. Being Arab proves we need not abide by the Geneva Convention. Just that this administration is not ready to admit that yet.

At what point do you realize that right wing extremists can be so easily corrupted. Just because they are right wing and god's choosen few makes them right? First remove any statement from the administrartion and their extremist "we don't need to read the long posts because we already know" supporters. The overwhelming majority is now suggesting most all those prisoners are not guilty. Only right wing extremists would fear to have rule of law apply to those prisoners. They are just as guilty as Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction. More extremist rhetoric proven only because it conforms to right wing extremist doctrine of preemption. Get a life. This administration has now put so many lies and spin up that nothing they say can be trusted without reams on confirmation. Clearly the Geneva Convention must be amended to conform to Guantanamo Bay. God's choosen said so.

Quote:

Originally posted by depmats
Then why are they there? I don't deny that there are mistakes made, but get real. This is not a prison full of innocent by-standers. They are there for a reason.

The short response so that George Jr could even read it. They are there because no reason exists to ask any questions. Just throw anyone who looks strange in torture prisons - such as Reuter Journalists. They are reporting the news. They must be evil. Torture them because that is the concept advocated by the George Jr administration.

Reality. Guantanamo Bay says throw everyone in jail. That way we might catch one bad guy. Clearly the laws and Geneva Convention are wrong and evil. This is a different war. Therefore we must destroy our principles - just like Westmoreland repeatedly said in Vietnam.

Laws only protect the bad guys. After all, there are only good guys and bad guys. Anyone who is not a good guy must be guilty. Torture him till he admits his guilt. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition - which is what we are talking about. Prisons full of innocent by-standers (90% is the published figure) and a few guilty ones.

[quote]Originally posted by tw
[b] America is run by god's choosen president.

Have you ever met someone that came up with a clever phrase and then drove it straight into the ground? Next time i see tw remark about "god's chosen president" I am going to have to figure out whether to gouge out my eyeballs or be satisfied in only pulling all my hair out. Come up with something new, already. I have read your posts and you are capable of much more than the same damn phrase repeated over and over and over and over... get the point?

[quote]Originally posted by depmats
[b]

Quote:

Originally posted by tw
America is run by god's choosen president.

Have you ever met someone that came up with a clever phrase and then drove it straight into the ground? Next time i see tw remark about "god's chosen president" I am going to have to figure out whether to gouge out my eyeballs or be satisfied in only pulling all my hair out. Come up with something new, already. I have read your posts and you are capable of much more than the same damn phrase repeated over and over and over and over... get the point?

How about "There is but one true God and George is his prophet"?

Let's say you are a 1000% correct in your assumption that every single detainee is one of Satan's emissary's from hell. Let's say that we are indeed on the side of the angels. If we are the "good guys" shouldn't we at least act like the good guys? What does the US stand for in your brainwashed little mind? Human rights? Democracy? The right to a fair trial and due process of the law? How can we as a nation espouse these ideals and then throw them down the toilet while the entire world watches? Apparently you have no problem with this. Might makes right and "arbeit macht frei." I have read your posts and you seem incapable of much more than the same damn brainless thug response to the issue over and over and over and over... get the point?