Berkeley City Council Doing Its Anti-Democracy Bit

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If that's the case, the electorate has voted to be unpatriotic.

So this is your new point, the BCC and the citizens of Berkeley are unpatriotic. What is patriotism? Is patriotism like obscenity? You know it when you see it?

Originally Posted by Undertoad

They're not specifically called out in the preamble to the Constitution.

Here's the Preamble to the Constitution:

Originally Posted by The Constitution of the United States

Preamble

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
[Extracted from The Constitution of the United States of America (May 2006), The Constitution of the United States of America.]

You're right. No mention of gambling or prostitution. Precisely the same amount of ink devoted to moral and patriotic standards of behavior. And of military recruiting.

Actually, the creation of a militia *does* get more ink later, and none of it discusses the role of local governments and their responsibilities to offer up the first fruits to a higher authority, not even the Marines. Perhaps you've confused this issue with another well known text.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

In your paranoid imagination.

Ladies and Gentlemen, behold! Captured for the first time, my paranoid imagination!

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Remember when the complaint was that dissent is automatically labeled unpatriotic? I have one question.

Exactly how unpatriotic do they actually have to be, before it's fair to label them?

It's legal -- and immoral.

Oops, sorry. Guess that wasn't *my* paranoid imagination after all.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I would use the same definitions I use in other contexts.

The same definitions, but different standards? *These* same definitions?

Originally Posted by Undertoad

And hey, also, when the city council is doing it, they aren't dissenting. They are establishing the dominant position.

That's not using the same definitions. That's called a double standard.

You're clearly upset about the actions of the BCC. You've called the actions immoral, unpatriotic. You've suggested the same about the citizens of the city. What you haven't done is offer any reason why it should be different than it is. I haven't heard anything from you (or others here) that has given me reason to agree with your opinions as to the morality and patriotism of the BCC. Neither have I heard anything to persuade me that their actions are illegal or even improper.

But I have learned much from you in the past, and I keep an open mind on this subject, in the hopes that I can learn from you again.