There are no illegal immigrants in America - Page 16

Radar · 01-02-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Rrriight, but the US Constitution protects the rights of US Citizens.

No, it protects the rights of THE PEOPLE...all people living within the United States.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

I highlighted the "or to the people" because I think what that means is up for discussion.

States or other governments have powers, people have rights. Government's only have powers that the people grant to it....which means government may not have any powers that we, as individuals don't possess without government, and which we have not expressly granted to government.

Anything not listed in the Constitution as an enumerated power of the federal government or prohibited from being a power of the states, is either a power of the states (assuming the people have granted one of their rights to that state as a power) or a right of the people.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

You are totally splitting hairs here.

Not at all. Naturalization is not immigration. It's not splitting hairs, it's just a fact.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

The tax or duty is specific to importation, but the clause also refers to migration, separately.

The clause refers solely to the migration and importation of slaves and it became void when 13th amendment abolished slavery.

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:08 PM

Radar, you keep moving the argument everytime your points get refuted. This game only lasts as long as both sides are willing to play and at this point your game has gotten rather tedious.

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Rrriight, but the US Constitution protects the rights of US Citizens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

No, it protects the rights of THE PEOPLE...all people living within the United States.

Quote:

The Constitution of the United States of America
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

That clearly states that the US constitution is for the citizens of the US ONLY - pretty effin clear.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Radar, you keep moving the argument everytime your points get refuted. This game only lasts as long as both sides are willing to play and at this point your game has gotten rather tedious.

None of my points have ever been refuted. People keep bringing up parts of the Constitution that do not grant any power to the federal government over immigration.

Repelling Invasions = Repelling invading armies.
Migration and Importation of slaves is NOT the immigration of free people.
Naturalization is not immigration
The ability to create necessary and proper laws for the powers enumerated in the Constitution do not allow the government to create laws related to areas not enumerated in the Constitution.
General Welfare means allowing people to live peacefully without being molested by government and does not grant the government carte blanch to create or enforce any laws it wishes.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

That clearly states that the US constitution is for the citizens of the US ONLY - pretty effin clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Constitution of the United States of America

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The people of the United States = The people living in the United States.

It doesn't say "We the citizens of the United States".

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

The people of the United States = The people living in the United States.

That is nothing more than your opinion.

Quote:

We the people of the United States

not in, it clearly states OF

Quote:

ourselves and our posterity

- again not the it plainly states OURSELVES and OUR

either it is clear to you that it refers to the citizens OF the US or it is up for interpretation.
Either way, your argument is refuted, again.

PS - This is the point where you typically change your argument again.

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

The people of the United States = The people living in the United States.

It doesn't say "We the citizens of the United States".

For the sake of clarity - indulge me one more time.
They did not state "the people living within the boudaries of the United States" because that is NOT what they meant - very clearly, they meant the citizens of the US.

It is so crystal clear I don't understand how someone purportedly "smarter than Supreme Court justices" cannot see it.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:37 PM

We THE people of the United States. It's very clear that it refers to the people of the United States....aka the people living inside the United States.

I haven't changed my argument even once. I've proven it many times and thwarted attempts of people who keep coming at me from different directions.

This is the point at which you try to argue over the definition of a word and suggest something laughable.

Ibby · 01-02-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Radar, you keep moving the argument everytime your points get refuted. This game only lasts as long as both sides are willing to play and at this point your game has gotten rather tedious.

Game?

It's CALVINBALL! The rules change constantly - and you can't play the same way twice!

NO TEH STUF N THE CONSUTION ITSLF IS ALL THT MATERS
Dude, youve said that before, which is why I'm right to say _____...
OKAY WELL THIS GUY SED THIS SO IM STILL RIGHT

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:39 PM

lol @ ibby.

regular.joe · 01-02-2008, 10:39 PM

I'm going to try and put my critical thinking skills to work here.

1. Congress has the power to form a uniform rule of naturalization.

I think we can agree on this.

2. naturalization is the process in which an immigrant becomes a citizen.

I think we can agree on this as well.

3. Immigration is the movement of a person or persons from another country or region to another country or region with the purpose of stying there permanently.

So far we have just definitions. Easy to agree?

The critical thinking part of this, at least for me: if anyone, from anywhere can move to this country permanently any time they want, with no restrictions what so ever; why have a naturalization? Everyone should be able to be a citizen automatically by crossing the border, thereby forgoing the need to naturalize anyone. There would be no such thing as citizenship. Enumerating a power to be able to form rules for naturalization implies immigration. In fact you cannot have naturalization without immigration.

If part of the uniform rules for naturalization stipulate that convicted felons cannot be naturalized and cannot have entry to the united states, there is no conflict with the constitution.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:42 PM

Why have naturalization? To give people the opportunity to vote. Those who don't want to have taxation without equal representation will choose to become citizens.

If a uniform rule of naturalization states that a felon can't be naturalized, it does not mean they can't become an immigrant.

01-02-2008, 10:08 PM	#230
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Radar, you keep moving the argument everytime your points get refuted. This game only lasts as long as both sides are willing to play and at this point your game has gotten rather tedious. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-02-2008, 10:37 PM	#236
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	We THE people of the United States. It's very clear that it refers to the people of the United States....aka the people living inside the United States. I haven't changed my argument even once. I've proven it many times and thwarted attempts of people who keep coming at me from different directions. This is the point at which you try to argue over the definition of a word and suggest something laughable. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

01-02-2008, 10:39 PM	#238
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	lol @ ibby. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-02-2008, 10:39 PM	#239
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	I'm going to try and put my critical thinking skills to work here. 1. Congress has the power to form a uniform rule of naturalization. I think we can agree on this. 2. naturalization is the process in which an immigrant becomes a citizen. I think we can agree on this as well. 3. Immigration is the movement of a person or persons from another country or region to another country or region with the purpose of stying there permanently. So far we have just definitions. Easy to agree? The critical thinking part of this, at least for me: if anyone, from anywhere can move to this country permanently any time they want, with no restrictions what so ever; why have a naturalization? Everyone should be able to be a citizen automatically by crossing the border, thereby forgoing the need to naturalize anyone. There would be no such thing as citizenship. Enumerating a power to be able to form rules for naturalization implies immigration. In fact you cannot have naturalization without immigration. If part of the uniform rules for naturalization stipulate that convicted felons cannot be naturalized and cannot have entry to the united states, there is no conflict with the constitution. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

01-02-2008, 10:42 PM	#240
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Why have naturalization? To give people the opportunity to vote. Those who don't want to have taxation without equal representation will choose to become citizens. If a uniform rule of naturalization states that a felon can't be naturalized, it does not mean they can't become an immigrant. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

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