Torture memos

The evidence from the DoJ memos, In't Red Cross reports, comments by some interrogators and other sources is clear that we used techniques including water boarding, long term sleep deprivation, physical abuse, psychological abuse, etc that violated the international standards of torture under the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention against Torture.

Not just at Gitmo, but at CIA black prisons around the world...far worse than anything that happened at Abu Ghraib. The DOJ memos attempt to rationalize these actions by unilaterally determining its own standards under those international treaty obligations of which the US is a signator.

That is not how a nation that promotes democracy and the rule of law should act.

[DanaC]

Oh well, if you're going to take the word of the international red cross ... :P

[Undertoad]

The int'l red cross was not present to give testimony about what happened.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Oh well, if you're going to take the word of the international red cross ... :P

The ACORN of the world! A mafia-like organization with a hidden agenda!

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The int'l red cross was not present to give testimony about what happened.

The International Red Cross report is based on first-hand accounts.

Unfortunately, the US had refused to sign the UNCAT optional protocol adopted by the UN General Assembly in 2002 that established "an international inspection system for places of detention" (signed by nearly all of our European allies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optiona..._or_Punishment

And one of the DOJ memos states that:

"The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydaydah... and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed)"

They can call it an "enhanced interrogation technique"..but it is torture by any other standard.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Redux

And one of the DOJ memos states that:

"The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydaydah... and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed)"

Why so many times? He was not telling them what they wanted to hear. Same reason the Iraqi General was murdered during torture. He also was not telling American extremists what they wanted to hear. Instead he was telling the truth.

Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. Monty Python was clairvoyant? Posted here repeatedly even in May 2004 because the problem was that obvious that long ago:
Image control...
And still, George Jr loyalists deny it - facts be damned.

Political extremists believe only what is good for the party line. Centrists instead use facts to know. Political extremists did then and still now deny what was that obvious even when Gen Miller left Guantanamo to instill the same torture techniques in Abu Ghraid. Why? We *knew* Saddam had WMDs. That *justifies* torture.

Just another lesson from history that we are expected to recite in another 30 years. Deja vue.

[Undertoad]

Why so many times? He was not telling them what they wanted to hear.

Nope.... because he was telling them good stuff. The rest of that same memo tells us that at least two out of the three waterboardings led to legitimate, and very important information, possibly preventing a "Second Wave" after 9/11.

Originally Posted by the memo

With these caveats, we turn to specific examples that you have provides us. You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM -- once enhanced techniques were employed -- let to the discovery of a KSM plot, the "second wave," "to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into" a building in Los Angeles. You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the "Second Wave". More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had tasked Majid Khan with delivering a large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate. Khan subsequently identifed the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali's brother, al-Hadi. Using information from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Guraba cell. With the aid of this information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.
...
More generally, the CIA has informed us that, since March 2002, the intelligence derived from CIA detainees has resulted in more than 6,000 intelligence reports, and, in 2004, accounted for approximately half of CTC's reportnig on al Qaeda... You have informed us that the substantial majority of this intelligence has come from detainees subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. In addition, the CIA advises us that the program has been virtually indispensable to the task of deriving actionable intelligence from other forms of collection.

[lookout123]

He would have given the same info if we'd just asked nicely. He'd have probably given it faster too.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Based on what source? That is part of the problem.

Also part of the problem as I stated earlier.

So what makes you trust the current one any more than the last?

Don't mix events that happened at Abu Ghraib with Gitmo. There is no evidence that anything close to what happened in Iraq took place in Gitmo. The rest ot that is your opinion taking right from the left-wingnut talking points.

Actually Merc, with the release of the report by the Red Cross and the torture memos, there most certainly IS evidence proving what they did. There are also videotapes of interrogations, or were. I believe it was reported that some of them were erased. Now why would they erase them if they had nothing to hide?

It has been reported for years that many of the people being held were not terrorists, but people who were swept up and held anyway, and never released based on nothing. I tend to believe investigative reporters. They deserve our respect, because they break stories that we would otherwise never know. I tend to believe the Red Cross, because they get access to places as long as they keep silent. Only someone seemed to think that report was more important, and they released it. Whoever that was deserves some kind of world recognition for what they did.

Lastly, I trust this administration more because I believe I can. So far Obama has been pretty good about keeping campaign promises and keeping his word. I NEVER felt like I could trust Bush, because he was too secretive and sneaky. He lied about things. He was a cowboy executing cowboy justice. He was arrogant. Obama is none of those things. I am extremely pissed off that they are refusing to prosecute anyone, because I think lots of people should be prosecuted, but that doesn't mean we can't trust him. In the end, I think he will have to prosecute some people. when that day comes, I will cheer from the rooftops.

[lookout123]

I believe it was reported that some of them were erased. Now why would they erase them if they had nothing to hide?

I hold here in my right hand a blank videotape! This is obvious and damning evidence proving the CIA's involvement in JFK's murder!

[sugarpop]

I think the most compelling reason why we should not use these techniques is this... two female journalists were captured recently while reporting on a story from the Chinese - N Korean border. When asked about how the women were being treated, they replied, "we are not Gauntanamo." That was North Korea talking, for crying out loud!

Now a female journalist with dual citizenship in the United States and Iran has been tried (and I believe sentenced) in Iran for spying. I wonder how she will be treated?

This really goes to the heart of the matter. We should treat others the way WE OURSELVES want to be treated. We will not always agree on policy, or other governmental affairs, but that doesn't mean we should not show respect. If we abandon our principles and bring ourselves down to the level of terrorists, then why should we expect to be treated with any decency by anyone?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I hold here in my right hand a blank videotape! This is obvious and damning evidence proving the CIA's involvement in JFK's murder!

If that videotape was known to have evidence on it beforehand, then it does make you look guilty. but whatever. I don't expect you to come over to my way of thinking. We disagree about almost everything.

[lookout123]

True. One of us lives in the real world and the other wants the real world to match a fantasy.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

He would have given the same info if we'd just asked nicely. He'd have probably given it faster too.

Which is exactly what happens once we eliminate the extremist mantra.

Second wave? A claim from the same people who said Saddam had WMDs. That fired people who warned of pending terrorism. Who undermined the Oslo Accords. Who encourages war with N Korea. Who nearly created a war with China over a silly spy plane. Who said Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. Who had White House lawyers rewrite science papers they did not like (because science contradicted their political agenda). Who almost destroyed Hubble. Who unilaterally canceled international treaties only because they did not like them. Who advocated nuclear proliferation. Who said America does not do nation building - and therefore lost military victories in two wars.

These are people who can be trusted in saying torture stopped a second wave? What second wave? Nobody can find any evidence of a second wave.

When Clinton listened to law enforcement, then multiple terrorist attacks all over the world were averted. AND we know what those attacks were. We know those attacks were averted because we were told by honest people - not extremists. Where is even one fact that suggests a second wave was coming? Torture that routinely leads to lies and no useful intelligence proved a second wave was averted? Therefore we know attacks on the Golden Gate Bridge and Prudential Building were averted. Not!

At what point does this second wave myth become obvious even to the extremists? At what point was this second wave really only the Second Coming of Christ? We know this because the same person also told us that America does not do nation building? Fool me 1000 times; shame on you? Is that how it goes?

Learn reality folks. Those who promote torture routinely avoid reality. Such as: Jemaah Islamiya was destroyed completely and faster because they just asked nicely. It contradicts extremist mantra. Extremists know that only torture gets answers. Why? Because they just know. Rush Limbaugh said so.

Asking nicely with a sharp wit is how interrogation always worked. Torture is how we proved that Saddam had WMDs. Reality and extremism are antonyms. First extremists deny we were torturing. Now extremists say we had to torture. How many times must extremists be caught lying before we stop believing them?

Originally Posted by lookout123

True. One of us lives in the real world and the other wants the real world to match a fantasy.

In the real world, the largest democracy in the world would abide by the international treaties it signs.

In the real world, when the CIA Inspector General reports that many of the agency's interrogation techniques would be considered torture under US treaty obligations, the CIA would investigate and take correction action.....instead of pursuing a political investigation of the Inspector General for doing his job of holding the agency accountable to the rule of law rather than political influence.

In the real world, DOJ attorneys would have drafted post-9/11 interrogation memos based on legal considerations and not political direction from the White House and would not be facing possible disbarment now for their alleged unethical actions.

In the real world, most interrogation experts (civilian and military) would agree that torture is rarely, if ever, as effective as other means of interrogation.

The fantasy world is the one that you have bought into...the Jack Bauer/24 world that only exists on TV, but that the Bush administration sold to the public as the real world.

added:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Nope.... because he was telling them good stuff. The rest of that same memo tells us that at least two out of the three waterboardings led to legitimate, and very important information, possibly preventing a "Second Wave" after 9/11.

IMO, the danger is believing everything the CIA tells you and discounting everything that the detainees attorneys or independent agencies like the IRC reports.

I recall Bush or Cheney telling us about an al queda plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge...it turns out it was one guy with a handheld blow torch.

Do you, or should we, really trust the government that completely? When they investigate their own IG for reporting his findings? or destroy nearly 100 tapes of interrogations?