Hamas founder killed
 

So say the BBC and the Chicago Tribune.

If true, does this mean the beginning of the end for Hamas...or is the mother of all suicide bombings near?

He's the spiritual leader, he ha no operation role.
It is however, going to cause the shit to really hit the fan, they're gonna go fucking nuts.

good god, what might that look like? think they'll start strapping bombs onto mothers and children, and sending them into public places to blow themselves up?

-sm

Good. Maybe they'll get sloppy and Israel can take out a few more of them.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

These people have been killing each other for time out of mind. I quit paying more that peripheral attention to the whole thing a long time ago.

My solution is to send each country a billion dollars of semtex or C4, in half pound blocks, with detonators.

Stand back and watch the devastations begin.

You reaction worries me smoothmoniker and rusotto. Next time your country or one of your allies are hit by a terrorist attack by an Islamofacist group, you'll know why they're so pissed off with your country.

When Sharon visited the holy sites in 2001 he killed what had been a mssive lul in attacks in one fell swoop. Imagine what this is going to cause.

Kinda pisses me off if the US grabbed Isreal by the scruff of the neck and told them to stop this conflict or cut off all aid maybe it'd be safe enough for me to go a-roving with a camera without having to wear 45 layers of kevlar labelled press.

Re: Hamas founder killed
 

IMO, it means shit's gonna hit the fan...and hard! :worried:



I thought they were already doing that. (at least, with women).

I think that was his point.

At this point, I don't care why Islamofacists are pissed off at the US or any other country. Their original reasons for being terrorist motherfuckers were mostly illegitimate, and the additional reasons piled on since then are mostly responses to their terrorist motherfuckerdom. Worrying about why they are pissed off makes sense only if you want to appease them. I'm not interested in appeasing them; I want them destroyed.

Israel, of course, is even LESS worried about appeasing them -- because they know the only way they can do it is to cease to exist.

So rusotto, what do ya wanna do? Nuke the middle east? Kill of those fucking raghead sand niggers eh?

Dump you in a narrow strip of land, kill half your realtives, take away your job and treat you like a piece of shit and see how you feel.

See this, this is what both you and UT don't seem to get. People get angry for a reason. There a deep, fundamental issues in Islamic society globally, issues of sovereignty, cultural power and economic power that need to be address. As I've said, countless times before - history has shown when people are angry is creates a fertile environment for extremist leaders who give people something to vent their anger at to rise to power. Hiter, the communist revolution in Russia and now OBL. Even if you kill them, you only make it worse, it's a meme and a powerful one. The only real, viable long term solution is to address the underlying issues of regional instability and economic stagnation. Do that, make people happy and wealthy and they won't be so worried about the great satan.

It would really ruin your point to learn that many of the terrorists are from elite families in countries with per capita GDP on par with the rest of the world.

No it wouldn't. The children of elite families are prone to disillusionment if they come in contact with the desperately poor. It's a common theme in literature - see "The Prince and the Pauper," and "Metropolis". Of course, in real life, they don't always learn the right lessons and save the day. But it is not the poverty of the individual that did it, it is the cultural poverty.

And GDP per capita is a meaningless statistic. The elite families make tons, and the masses make nothing.

What was Hitler's reason for slaughtering 6 million Jews? What was Stalin's reason for assasinating upwards of 30 million of his own countrymen? What was Japan's reason for raping Nanking? And these are just the highlights from the last 60 years.

At some point, the madness simply has to stop. And those folks who are interested in chit-chat about the reason while the rivers and streams overflow with blood are just as guilty as the perpetrators as far as I'm concerned.

I find the whole exercise of intellectualizing about brutality and murder a fool's game at worst and at best, a very sophisticated form of denial and self-delusion.

But, don't let me interrupt you.

Er no, and no.

First factor you're missing is popular support. Without popular support these guys would be a reprehensible fringe with a tiny following, like every other group of nutters. Instead, due to the latent anger in the islamic world, they could hide in any major city in the Middle easy most probably. They can recruit those willing do die for the cause by the thousands. YOu think if hiter had tried to gain power in a stable, non-impoverished Germany not still being hogtied by the versaii treaty he would have had any luck? The difference here is you're dealing with something worse, just just a man, but a meme, you can't just roll in with tanks and kill it, that only makes it stronger, vindicates what they say about the great satan, how can you not see that?

So what do you want do beestie? I honestly don't get it. Build a big fucking pit in Sudi and put every late sandnigger terrorist in it? Ban them all from the western world? Kill every last one? Because geez, wasting militants sure stopped the attacks in Isreal didn't it. You're dealing with a hydra, chopping off heads is not going to kill it. How is it denial? All I'm denying is that killing people is going to make this all go away. It might satisfy that base lust for revenge but it sure isn't going to stop the attacks coming, or the popular support go away.

I should point out though that OBL et al getting 50cal between the eyes is still a good thing, It's just not the answer.

True. We had popular support. Lots of it. Until we actually went after the perpetrators - then it dried up faster than dew in the desert.

Confronting our enemies is never something that will garner popular support (I assume you mean global support and not support within our borders). However, I still agree with Bush that we need to take the fight to them instead of waiting for them to hit us again. The best defense is still a good offense, imho.

But, having said that and in the interest of clarifying my position, I do not include the Iraq invasion as related to Sep 11, Al Queda or the war on terrorism (although I did at first - call me a sucker).

So, what's the answer? Who the hell knows? All we can do is fight to protect ourselves. I will stick to my guns that we need to be offensive and not defensive. While Al Queda may act like it has nothing to lose and will fight to the death for ever and ever, history has shown that this strategy will not last. If we continue to track them down and kill them, sooner or later they will give up.

Just take the latest backtrack from Hamas. Yesterday, it was "Death to America!" Well, not 24 hours later, it looks like they are backtracking on that position:

Here's a link to the whole story. But I get the feeling that all the ass-kicking we've done lately led them to reconsider. Had we responded to our lack of popular support by cowering in the corner begging for mercy, I dare say there would be a different outcome.

Bottom line for me: if its war they want, its war they'll get (Al Queda or whoever). But it will be war on our terms and on their turf. And yes, we are prepared to bleed if necessary. History has borne that out, too.

I was talking about the popular support for OBL and the movement as a whole. I'm not entirely sure how you missed that. You think hamas has backed down? They just they're smarter not to take on the US. They've been fighting a guerilla war, and been killed by the hundreds for going on 20 years now and they don't look like slowing down do they. If anything sway of extremist groups in the gaza strip and west bank and only grown and grown, I wonder why.

You didn't get the hydra thing did you? You can't kill them all. For every one you kill you create 2, if not 10 and 20 more people who will support these movements financially and politically.

Which neatly summarizes why the "War On Terra" is doomed to failure. It's not a declaration of war against a country, a government or even an organization, but against a CONCEPT, and a concept that's inherently self-perpetuating.

It's not inherently self-perpetuating. It requires fuel, and that fuel is blood and poverty, both of which are created by war.

Its not a war against a concept, its a war just like any other war. The only difference is that its not a country we are fighting but a decentralized group with a farm system.

This endless dignifying and mystification of Al Queda is nauseating. They are religious zealots (the actual fighters) led by shrewd politicians. Unlike a hydra which has no heirarchy, if Al Queda is decapitated a sufficient number of times, the drones will settle down. Without a spiritual leader, they will not perpetuate. Unlike the Palestinian conflict where the people waging it are affected by their relationship to Isreal every day, the Al Queada fighters are motivated only by the hate instilled in them by their leaders.

I would say Al Queada is less like a hydra and more like a decentralized bee hive. Kill the queens and the bees will scatter and return to the hills from whence they came. They will still hate the U.S. but will lack the infrastructure and means to do anything about it.

I do not agree that the war on terror is doomed to failure. To concede that in advance is absurd. If anything is doomed to failure, its Al Queada's war on us.

---
edited to correct spelling error. content unchanged.

It's not abject poverty, but Arabic failure in comparison to the rest of the world that really has them irate. Iraq is actually an attempt to address that, but we can't say so up front which is why everyone is confused as to the "real reason" for the war:

http://denbeste.nu/essays/strategic_overview.shtml

In short, the only way to truly stop the production of more hydra heads is to create a successful Democracy in the center of the Arabic world. First step is to remove the big huge Stalinist impediment to their success. Check. It's still not a bad plan if it works and may well be the solution with the least amount of blood spilled.

The problem is what happens if it fails, and we can't really tell whether it's failing because it takes time (took several YEARS in the case of post-WW2 Germany) and we're not getting enough information on that.

Of course, the War On Terror[tm] != war on Al-Qaeda. If the two were equivalent, we wouldn't be in Iraq now.

Eliminating Al-Qaeda (or at least wiping out enough of Al-Qaeda to severely marginalize its ability to strike back) is possible. Eliminating the sentiments and beliefs that spawn groups like Al-Qaeda is another matter entirely (and likely to be a futile one.)

I think that this is the most central part of that whole paper:

"None of this has anything to do with historical Arab culture at its height, which was rich, powerful, and very impressive. It produced great literature and poetry, great science, and amazing architecture. It adopted and regularized place-value numbering, developed arithmetic and invented algebra. But that all largely ended several hundred years ago. All of the discussion above refers to the current culture of the region, and the people living there now."

It's a religion in it's twilight in a world that is eventually going to see its demise.

I wish christianity would go the same way. Argueably it is, except in backwards places like rural vietnam and capitol hill.

Unfortunately, the numbers I've seen show an increase in the professing of religious beliefs.

On the other side there appears to be an increase of people professing no faith as well.

Things are polarizing.

Get the guns and the food pills ready...

As far as I'm aware most of Europe has been in decline for a fair while. Not really sure on the US.

Reminds me of an old joke. A guy goes to Northern Ireland for a holiday. Goes into a pub in a seedy part of town one night. He's sipping on a pint at the bar when suddenly he feels the cold sensation of a gun barrel on the back of his neck:

He hears the guy say: Catholic or Protestant? He has no idea what part of town he's in so no idea what the 'correct' answer is. After a second's thinking:
Buddhist.

Europe will still be in decline long after America has passed it up on the downhill side. Europe has had much more experience in the sociocultural arena and America can't do anyting at a medium pace.

Actually, I suspect it is currently at the point that Christianity was in in the Dark Ages - rigid, violent theocracy. Hopefully it will mellow eventually, but I doubt it's about to collapse.

I'm all for that. Islam needs to like, smoke a big fat doobie.

And so he got shot anyway for being a fooking heathen?

Then you would be promoting the neanderthal reasoning that undermined so many great empires. The great and long lasting empires were tolerant; that only went to war on the worst of conditions. As a result, great nations spend most time wealthy, in peace, with many adjacent friends. Only those who think like Japan, Germany, and Italy worry about revenge for every little thing.

Again we return even back to lessons from Sun Tzu who makes this obvious. But to make the point in a soundbyte that even neanderthals would understand - 'keep your powder dry'. Talk softly, carry the big stick and rarely use it.

Great nations do as the US did in WWII. They attacked our ships even off the Atlantic coast. As a result, they never knew what would hit them from a country with one of the world's smallest militaries. And because the US waited for the smoking gun, then the US single handedly changed the entire world. Something that would not be possible had we jumped into WWII with everyone else. Victory so great not just because the US could produce so much. Because a tolerant US therefore had absolute necessary support from literally every neutral country and every citizen.

Only a neanderthal believes revenge solves things. The extremist Sharon advocates revenge- and therefore has only increased deaths and terrorism. Great nations only go to war after a smoking gun is created. Even Sun Tzu demonstrates why that tolerance makes a nation so much more powerful and successful.

It is foolish to think war makes a nation unpopular. Going to war in Afghanistan and Kuwait made the US THE most popular nation in the world - no one came close. But again, smoking gun makes a major difference. US was roundly unpopular during VietNam for good reason - both internationally and domestically. No smoking gun. Again, neanderthals such as George Jr and the Vulcans will never understand the power in that reasoning. People such as the Vulcans make good cannon fodder. Every nation needs some cannon fodder. But neanderthals make inferior leaders. They have no clue of the power found in tolerance - power in that smoking gun.

Lets say those neanderthals got their way - got revenge against China over a silly spy plane. Where would we be? Scum to most every nation. Smart people managed to bottle up the neanderthals - and avoided a China war. That is the lesson of history. Those who wait for the smoking gun are clear and long term victors. Preemption historically is only preached by neanderthals who end up refighting every war.

I can't help but wonder who the other seven human beings were - the ones killed along with Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in the Israeli missle attack. How many were family members, children, innocent bystanders? What were their dreams, and how many people mourn and miss them today?

I know, I know...suicide bombers kill a lot of innocent bystanders, too. Is that our best moral defense? Are we basing our judgment and actions on what the suicide bombers do, then?

So many people in the West find it incredibly easy to simply look right through all of those non-Western faces - the ones belonging to the dead and dying of places like Palestine - as though they did not exist. We all get teary-eyed thinking about the victims of 9/11, and about their survivors, their children, their stolen lives, but in some parts of the world - not a few of whose ruling powers are supported by U.S. tax dollars - innocents die every day in an ongoing holocaust, and we point the finger at their leaders, their history, their culture - at everything and everyone but our own greed and ignorance.

Amid all the rhetoric and insults, is there any time at all to simply reflect on the humanity that is wasted every day in the name of political expediency?

There probably were innocents and children around the man when he was killed, because Pal leaders have taken to surrounding themselves with such when they appear in public because they know it improves their chances of not getting bombed.

http://cellar.org/2004/hamas-meshaal-child.jpg

Er UT, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, the people just want to be there? Or it's someone's kid? Sorry but your logic on this one is farcial "they go near other people because they're terrorists!!!" Like the Israelis would hold off an attack over a few Palestinian innocents dieing anyway, never stopped them in the past.

"Son, I know all of the Hamas leaders are getting blown to bits but please go stand next to their top guy and wave that flag."

As in it's his son?

By your logic I should give Salman Rushdie a wide berth as well. Secondly this is a cause people are impassioned about, this is their way of displaying that. I fail to see the reprehensible in that.

Nice try, Jaguar...but arguments on the basis of fairness and equity are wasted on those who see Arabs as less worthy of consideration and sympathy than non-Arabs.

Did I glean correctly from some of your posts that you live in the U.K.? If so, I'm sure that you've at least gotten some idea, from this and other forums, how deeply ingrained and virulent is the pro-Israeli prejudice alive in the U.S. There is literally no way to break through it with logic or appeals to reason...or to attempt to do so without being immediately branded an anti-Semite, of course.

I'm afraid that the combination of widespread christian fundamentalist premillenialism, in which the state of Israel continues to hold a 'special place in God's plan', and the fact that a large percentage of Jewish Israelis are of European descent (White), there is only one politically correct view, in America, for one to take.

Didn't the U.K. set up the whole fucking plan in the first place?

And didn't the israelis persuade the British to bail out, with bombs?

Ok, just so we're clear on this. I'm an egalitarian agnostic non-theist. My motivation for my feelings on this are pretty straight-forward.I'm tired of hearing about it, I'm tired of reading about it, I'm tired of seeing it on the news.

My plan for resolving the problem is to issue 1/2 pound blocks of Semtex or C4, their choice, to any adult, of either country, ambulatory enough to make it to the dispensing station. Each unit will be pre-built with a casing, shrapnel, and a timer that will last no more than five minutes once activated. Once your half pound has been proven to have been used then you can come back for another one. Any instances of use against anyone other than another country participating in the program will result in a much larger bomb being dropped somewhere randomly in a populated area, thus robbing those people of the chance to get to heaven on their terms.

You can't get much more fair than that.

[quote]Originally posted by tw ...Again we return even back to Lets say those neanderthals got their way - got revenge against China over a silly spy plane. Where would we be? Scum to most every nation. Smart people managed to bottle up the neanderthals - and avoided a China war. That is the lesson of history. Those who wait for the smoking gun are clear and long term victors. Preemption historically is only preached by neanderthals who end up refighting every war.QUOTE]
I didn't want to re-quote your whole post,TW.But, I do want to say I agree with you wholehardedly.Of course, none of us(or even our children)will be around to see how things play out.But.. to not mind the lessons of the past is just concieted and stupid.
This could be a golden era for this country.Perhaps we could use our Military and economic muscle to create a world in which the poor and desperate do not attack symbols of richness in the U.S. or anywhere.
I am guessing many will immediately say that its not economics.That in fact its religous.I agree.But I also think that the religous fervor many times comes from a life that is desperate,with no other way of belonging.With no way of bettering yourself.

Just once, I'd like to hear a Westerner say the Israeli tactics are "cowardly," like they always do when some Palestinian blows up a handful of Israelis.

Strapping on a suicide belt, sneaking into Israel, boarding a bus and then saying goodbye to yourself as you detonate the bomb seems a little nervier than firing three missiles from the safety of an American Apache helicopter at a blind old man in a wheelchair.

I mean, the old guy went to pray 5 times a day. I could have walked up to the old fart in a mosque while they were all having quiet time on their little rugs and pinched his nostrils shut, he would have been dead long before the prayers were over, but the Israelis need an Apache helicopter? Maybe they're just show-offs?

Anyway, though the Palestinians are forced by their technological backwardness to act more courageously, the killings of each are equally futile. Neither is going to say "OK, that was the murder that broke the camel's back, we give up." The violence only further radicalizes each side.

The Israeli tactics are cowardly.
Welcome to the Cellar, Spivey:)
By the way, the Israeli tatics are also very efficient at killing people. Unfortunately the said same tactics don't solve anything but I think both sides are way past trying to solve anything. It's just paybacks now.

Similarly, Spivey, it takes guts and religious fanaticism to burn a cross in someone's yard. Spread that admiration around!

No it doesn't. It just takes hard drinkin' and racism.

Agreed, it doesn't take much guts to burn a cross wearing a disguise, then slink off into the night. Pretty safe, really. Whereas to blow yourself up takes real stupidity.

WOOOOHOOOOOOO ... let's hear it for hard drinkin' and racism!

oh ...



... wait




that's a bad thing.



nevermind



-sm