thanks, rkz.

My mother put up with ME. She deserves a sainthood nomination! ;)

Look--unless radical (i.e. wishing you dead right FUCKING NOW) most religious leaders hope to heal.

At least I hope they do.

I tend to be a bit more cynical on that point... about most. I think some are what they show.

For me:
I wrote this a while ago.

Mohammed wets the bed.
And the last pope hung out and was all cool with child molestation (lets hurry and make him a saint because some nun isn't blind anymore:rolleyes:) , but yeah, I can see that he'd need to be vigilant about folks like me unbelieving and shit....

To appreciate either an attitude or a schism within the Catholic Church is this book published by the Catholic Press entitled "Inside Islam: A Guide of Catholics" page 16: Does this sound like a religion advancing the principles of their god ... or one that justifies a Spanish Inquisition?

What makes a better Catholic? One that ignores many Catholic Church teachings (and other organized religions) so they may form a stronger relationship between themselves and their god. One that also condemns that Church for ignoring and attacking “Voices of the Faithful”.

Organized religion is nothing more than a consultant. It may become so perverted as to insist that, without their advice, then you will burn in hell. Organized religion often forgets that it is only a consultant - not god's personal adviser, receptionist, armed protector, and the only one who knows what god thinks. Notice hate of Islam as published by the Catholic Press. This publication is not an accident. Actions are consistent with a religion that knows about and that would hide its employees at the expense of sexually abused children. And these atrocities are not limited to one organized religion. Nobody expects a Spanish Inquisition which is why organized religions may become guilty of same. Too often, organized religion violates basic principles of quality - they forget who they work for.

Sounds like me when I talk about cops.

Holy Shit
 

I never met Mohammed, nor Jesus. That's kinda my point; you have this German dude, a contemporary human, who is said to be imbued with some direct connection to JC. That's just plain crazy. That's great that your mom is a good Catholic, but I don't think that ANYONE who lives and participates in the present American Capitalist System can consider themselves a good Catholic. Maybe I didn't listen carefully enough in my Catholic school, or my CCD classes, but most Catholics I know are hypocrites to some extent. If you use birth control, which a majority of Catholics do, you are violating the rules of your religion, the rules set forth by Joe, otherwise known as "The Pope." That IS Catholicism. You must obey and follow the rules of The Pope.

Heaven and Hell are on earth. I denounce ALL religions.

BTW
 

The Jesuits are one of the few branches of Catholics I respect. They actually care about helping people; except in the past when they were tourturing them or killing them. Seriously, I attended a Jesuit college and one thing they are good at is edumacation. GO RAMBLERS!!!

Thanks to this "secularism", most of Europe moved through the Renaissance and the Age of Reason, and jumped head-on into scientific discoveries which have turned their part of the world into a paradise compared to what it looked like in the Middle Ages. The "holy" Roman Catholic Church, on the other hand, held back Spain, Mexico, and any other territories under their jurisdiction and prevented the advancement of education, science, and social services until they were forced into the 20th Century by a world war. Another result of the stranglehold of the Catholic Church was the ossification of the Spanish language (Castillian) to the point that they were forced to borrow and modify words from the developed countries so they could even discuss the world they shared. I consider the Catholic Church to be a huge part of the problem with the Philippines, which is sinking into the bottomless cesspool of ignorance and corruption while the Church praises the country for its "piety and religious devotion". On the other hand, the Islamic nations used to be the most educated, cultured, and advanced places on earth. But now they are among the poorest and most ignorant and oppressed, all thanks to the omnipresent religious control. It seems this is one area in which these two religions definitely have something in common: they are both obsessed with control and suppression of innovation and open investigation of ideas, to the horrible misfortune of their believers.

I think it's a little bit of 'chicken and egg'. People sunk in poverty and ignorance have a tendency to grasp at religion. This does not mean that religion promotes ignorance, or that intelligent people don't also find a need for religion. It's just that middle and upper class individuals may have less of a need to turn over aspects of their life to religious control, accepting religion as an advisor and partner and not a master.

Tonchi
 

Holy Christoli!

That was a great synopsis, Tonchi.

Keep up the good work and analysis. We need more people like you. Yours was a macro analysis of religion; succinct but thorough.

My sister lives and works in Spain. I'm sure she would enjoy this discourse.

Italy





P- I cannot pretend to be a "great" Catholic. For our own reasons, we don't use artificial birth control if that's going to be your criteria. Your education by inflexible Jesuits is a major impediment to understand the flexibility of beliefs contained within the Church. The Jesuits, smart as they are, are only one small organization within the Church and are not called the Pope's lawyers for nothing. If the Pope wants progressives and sceptics out, he could start excommunicating folks right now. Like I said, I'm not the guy to have this argument with, my beliefs are my own and they are changing, but it seems you want it both ways. You hate the Church for being reactionary but when folks in it want to work for progress, you want them out.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in religion as a positive influence on our personal lives. But when ANY religion, whether Catholic, Mormon, Islam, or Communist takes over the governance of a people, In my opinion things go to hell rather than to heaven.

Whether your sister in Spain would be interested in my analysis is moot, the Spanish have become considerably more cynical and secular in the last half-century. The colonies they formed were poisoned by the legacy left them by Spain of the 1500s through 1700s, today is a different world.

If it weren't for the catholics, Europe and Britain would have taken a lot longer to re-populate the countryside after the plague. ;)

Speaking of the Plague, historians now agree that in the long run the Plagues of the mid 14th Century were what brought Europe out of the Middle Ages. With no serfs to slave for them, the landlords who remained were forced to pay wages for the first time in order to work their land, and many who fled the plague or survived it became free to move to someplace else for the first time in their lives. They could even take over land which had previously been denied to them under the feudal system. Entire villages completely disappeared after a few years of weather, because they were built of scraps, and only the churches and manor houses remained, standing alone in the countrysides. Trade came back with a strength previously unknown, because now there were people who could buy things other than the nobility: people could now be paid for the trades they were previously forced to perform for free. Maps were redrawn, old political alliances were gone because the parties no longer existed, and a middle class slowly began to form. Unfortunately, nobody learned any lessons about having filth and vermin surrounding you being bad for your health. Yes, millions of people all over the known world died from these plagues, but not all the outcomes were bad.

Oh, I dunno... I touched down in Sigonella Naval Air Station once (it's in Sicily), in a previous career... didn't see any Norman weasels at the time. :cool: