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Relationships People who need people; or, why can't we all just get along?

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Old 02-02-2007, 11:38 PM   #16
Undertoad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage View Post
No thanks for the ThreadJack, especially after I asked you not to.
Nobody calls me out with misinformation and gets clean away in the thread. Nobody.
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Old 02-03-2007, 06:11 AM   #17
Phil
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Nobody calls me out with misinformation and gets clean away in the thread. Nobody.

*ROFL*

Rob, it makes perfect sense to me. the only thing i would add to the recipe for a good relationship would be honesty and communication.
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:43 AM   #18
rkzenrage
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Originally Posted by Stormieweather View Post
I recently had the opportunity to view a marvelous motivational video - What's right with the world

One of the main premises of the video is that what we believe affects our perceptions which become our reality.

I believe that we are in control of our own happiness (or lack thereof). That doesn't mean that other influences don't cause us pain or that we don't have problems which may seem insurmountable, it simply means we control how we react to them and we choose how to view them, as well as ourselves. I think we have 'internal tapes' that we play which affect our self-esteem, our ego, our confidence and our outlook on life. These tapes are a result of our life experiences and teachings.

Internal scripts that follow the lines of...I'm miserable, my life sucks, my husband/wife is the pits, I'm fat/ugly/short/weird/stupid and nobody likes me generally become self-fulfilling. Every time we tell ourselves that (or believe it when someone else says it), it is closer to becoming our reality.

I'm NOT a doctor, but from I've studied, I've come to think that in some cases, there IS a chemical imbalance which can be helped through medication(s). My understanding is that this type of chemical imbalance has physical effects such as lethargia, listlessness, lack of enthusiasm, sleep issues and a disruption of cognitive reasoning. But this does not change the fact that we are all responsible for ourselves and our belief patterns/perceptions.

I wrote an essay 20 years ago in which I described each person's life as a ship. We, as the captain, steer our ship with our choices. Just as a captain can't control the tides, the waves, winds or ice floes, we don't have control over the outside influences which affect our lives, such as illness, job loss, abuse, or traffic jams on the way home. We DO however, have control over how we choose to react to them. We can make a concious choice to have a positive outlook and to find the best in our world (instead of focusing on what's wrong).

As Rkzenrage says, it doesn't happen overnight. It took 20, 30, 40 years to learn those negative scripts and it will take a lot of effort and time to rewrite them. The habits of a lifetime are hard to break, but it can be done. Everytime I find myself blaming someone/something else for my own unhappiness, I shut off the tape and revise my response. I believe that with all problems that come my way, I can choose to accept the situation, change the situation or change my perception of the situation. This then, becomes my reality.


So, I think I'm thin. I'm really, really slender. That roll of fat around my waist? Is. not. there. .

Stormie
Nooooooo...nooooooOOOooo... they OBVIOUSLY just didn't find the right pill. Don't let's be silly.
We should write the video company.
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Old 02-03-2007, 04:15 PM   #19
rkzenrage
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Nobody calls me out with misinformation and gets clean away in the thread. Nobody.
Even if you have already had the exact same conversation over-&-over again, even if you have to be rude as hell to do it.
Very high-&-mighty Toady *applause*. Does not seem like you, really, this really strikes a nerve with you.
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Old 02-03-2007, 04:51 PM   #20
Undertoad
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I think this is the fourth time you've said "that does not seem like you" to me. Either you have some weird pre-conceived notion of who I am, or you prefer this method of being patronizingly insulting. "Rude light", as it is; "rude sophisticated" in some quarters.

I am more direct about it. I am most certainly the guy who will not politely shut up when someone calls me out with "I know you believe there is such a thing as a magic happy pill". Once again, that's "rude light" and when someone has been "rude light" to me, my favorite response is "rude heavy".

But when the bottom line is added up, I am actually the polite person trying to stop you from giving out bad advice that might cause continued suffering. You are the rude person telling me right up front that you absolutely will not listen to me, in fact you pre-dismiss me with ignorance even as you ask if your advice needs addendum.

Fuck that shit. You don't want my two cents, fine, I'll give ya three.
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Old 02-03-2007, 05:08 PM   #21
rkzenrage
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I already listened to you... already had the discussion with you, as I stated before... seems to be a theme.
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Old 02-03-2007, 06:17 PM   #22
AgentApathy
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Thank you for what you've posted, RK. They are good words to live by. I read the part where you talk about chemical imbalances and that they may only be part of the equation, and you are right, especially when the chemical imbalances have already done some damage in your relationship.

Anyway, thanks. That's good information to keep in mind for the future, and good reminder why I might (still grieving a bit too much to be sure yet) just be glad to be out of the relationship I posted about in my own thread a little while ago.
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:38 PM   #23
rkzenrage
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Thinking...

Another Rant.

Something we all agree on is that relationships are dying, what many will disagree with is why.
I say that the art and basics of communication are dying, it is just not being taught and is monumentally important in maintaining relationships.
Basically, we are too causal.
Today I want to talk about apologizing… because we just don’t do it.
First, “I’m sorry” is rarely an apology. It is almost always just a blow-off, suggesting that the conversation end, not that one is truly unhappy about their actions or words. In today’s language it has no specific meaning. This is NOT what I am discussing… though it is part of the problem.

“I apologize” these are important words, healing words… for both parties, if given and taken properly.
This is what I mean. Once said, the second party has to let them know if the apology has been accepted or not. In my family, and now, in every relationship I have had, I have discussed what constitutes an acceptance. It can be “okay”, “I accept” (the preferred) or “all right”… never a nod or anything else. This must be discussed in advance so there is no confusion.
Then, once an apology has been accepted, that is it, the discussion is over, in all forms.
The person who has apologized cannot sit around sulking or pouting like their dog died. The accepting party cannot continue to bitch or stomp around still pissed off like they have a half-dead-weasel in their ass. Once you are ready to accept an apology, you are ready to end the conversation and forgive… from both sides. Forgive the slight and forgive those who were pissed-off with you. It is OVER, PERIOD. No snide remarks, no bringing it up over dinner six months later, ladies, no nothing… OVER.
Now, that sounds great, but it is not always possible… however. If something else comes-up or you fucked-up and find that you cannot let it go…
You need to remain calm… the emotion of the argument is over (remember). Any new “stuff” or stuff that you can’t get rid of should be looked-at in the light of “they forgave me” or “they asked for an apology, they want my forgiveness”… if you take this step, I promise you, it really takes the sting out and the discussion can be done with a great deal of objectivity and love. It will be colored by that apology and should be framed by “I know we agreed, you/I apologized and it was accepted, but, I have something I need to deal with, please be patient with me…”.
If something is thrown back-up into one’s face, they just say, “you accepted my apology, why are we having this conversation?” End.
Pride/ego is the relationship killer, it’s tool is miscommunication… that begins when we do not set the ground rules for HOW we are going to communicate.
IMO, that is most important when we are talking about, how are we going to deal with when we are pissed-off or hurt. That conversation needs to happen.
What I think is happening is that we want to be so “adult & grown-up” that we think we don’t need to do it.
The sad thing is, doing it is what makes us adults… it shows caring, it says that “I am going to make mistakes and I care enough to give us the tools to deal with it, in advance”.
I just don’t see this any more and cannot figure out why.
What really brought this to my attention is that we went through this ritual, I bitched at my wife for not accepting my apology… she did and our demeanor changed and the third party then kinda’ grilled us on it.
At that point I realized that I had not seen anyone else, outside our family really doing this, with very few exceptions, any more… I saw it more when I was younger.
I know this sounds like an older person’s “when I was a kid” rant… perhaps it is… that does not make it invalid.
This can’t be odd of me, to think that people are deluded for thinking if they ignore their issues they will just “go away” instead of festering and causing resentment.
I think this is why cheating has become so rampant, we have stopped being polite and we have broken the basic communication rituals in our lives and relationships. So, what we find what is wanting in our relationships we look for elsewhere.
It all comes back to communication, you cannot give someone something if you don’t know they want it… and NO ONE can be expected to JUST KNOW. I see a lot of that lunacy out there too. “He/She should have known” when I ask if they told them, they blabber incoherently, make excuses, but mostly just look at me blankly. Stupid.
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:51 PM   #24
kerosene
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I think these are all useful and wise ideas. I think they could be very helpful to folks who need to heal within their relationships.

If I understand what you said correctly, I disagree with the statement about relationships dieing. From my perspective, it seems we are beginning to redefine relationships, which means they are just changing. Perhaps this was not the context in which you meant that statement. Let me know if I am wrong in reading that as "society's concept of relationship is dieing."
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:55 PM   #25
rkzenrage
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Perhaps... but do you not see what the statistics are these days?
It is not just people giving up easier, not by a long-shot.
We want everything to come easy and most will not admit wrong doing or forgive. If it cannot be done in three words, it does not have a chance.
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:49 PM   #26
kerosene
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By statistics, do you mean divorce? Marriage is only one type of relationship. There are people out there that are with their SOs for years, but never marry. I think that is more common, now, than ever before. I am not trying to derail this thread, but I want to understand what you mean about relationships dieing.

I don't think it is necessarily true that communication is dieing or that people don't apologize, where they did before in relationships. I just don't buy it, I guess. Growing up watching my parents interact, there was a serious lack of communication. There weren't many "I love you"s or "Let's talk about our feelings" type discussions. I never witsnessed them holding hands or kissing. They are still together. Why? Because they had a different idea of what a marriage should be. I, on the other hand, have had far different experiences...and I have a different idea of what a marriage should be (for me, anyway). I want the "I love you"s and the feelings conversations. Neither one is better than the other. They're just different.
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:53 PM   #27
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Well put. Perhaps it worked for them. Most need to discuss their disagreements IMO to work them out.
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Old 02-04-2007, 09:32 AM   #28
Clodfobble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage
Forgive the slight and forgive those who were pissed-off with you. It is OVER, PERIOD. No snide remarks, no bringing it up over dinner six months later, ladies, no nothing… OVER.
...
What really brought this to my attention is that we went through this ritual, I bitched at my wife for not accepting my apology… she did and our demeanor changed and the third party then kinda’ grilled us on it.
You know, I've seen more than a few anecdotes from you where your wife 'broke the rules' and you chided her back into good behavior. You obviously give a lot of lip service to the 'equal partners' mantra, so I'm curious if you can recall any times where you were out of line and your wife politely insisted that you rethink your position?
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Old 02-04-2007, 12:51 PM   #29
rkzenrage
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Putting this into the first person for me is incorrect. This works both ways for each and is not about a specific event of ours, as stated in the post. We both do that all the time, I actually brought something up that I accepted an apology for about a month ago. She has done the same in the past. There was no "chiding" we are not children and are rarely assholes about it... we just try to avoid a second argument about it and discuss the fact that the issue is not resolved... again, as stated in the post. Did you read the whole thing?
Thanks for participating though.
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Old 02-04-2007, 06:29 PM   #30
Aliantha
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I think that every family has their own way of dealing with conflict and whatever works for them is the right thing to do for them. Now I'm not talking about physical abuse or anything here. I'm just addressing the fact that there's no absolute right way for a family to resolve conflict, and what works for one family will not work for another.

I have an aunt and uncle who bicker and argue night and day, and that's their way of living. They like it. They love each other and they've been married for about 30yrs now.

Me and my husband rarely argue loudly. We discuss things. Sometimes I pout or he sulks until one of us can't stand it anymore and we have to sort the issue out. We're not perfect, and I'm sure anyone could point out how childish our behaviour is sometimes, but neither one of us likes raising our voice or making scenes so our 'sulking' time is usually where we work out what we're really pissed about and figure out what we really want as a solution, instead of words tossed out into the universe in anger.

As to the topic of this thread, I can see why people think families are breaking down. It's a fact that they are breaking down, but only the structures we traditionally think of as families. Social change is a fact and will always be a fact. Nothing is ever going to stay the same and there's lots of interesting research about relationships and the evolution of family structures which might help those who are feeling a bit concerned about 'the breakdown of the family unit'.
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