The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Philosophy

Philosophy Religions, schools of thought, matters of importance and navel-gazing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-06-2008, 09:17 PM   #196
regular.joe
Старый сержант
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women.
Posts: 1,464
Flint, what do you mean?
__________________
Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament.

Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.
regular.joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 09:24 PM   #197
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
If you have intellectually outgrown the concept of operating on faith in invisible supernatural powers, then instead of spinning your wheels writing a definition of faith that includes the level of scientific rigor that you deem appropriate, maybe it's time to say "Hey, this faith stuff isn't for me anymore. I've outgrown it. Time to move on."

Now, to be clear, I don't care what you do or what you believe. But if you're going to tell me faith means something damn near the opposite of what the dictionary says, then yes, I'm going to call you on that.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 10:36 PM   #198
Troubleshooter
The urban Jane Goodall
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by regular.joe View Post
I get the feeling that when you say "what the voices tell you" you believe that someone with a spiritual experience is crazy.
Well, we only medicate or incarcerate the people who do bad things when the voices tell them to do so.

I'm not saying everyone hears an overt voice, although plenty do.

In general terms we're hardwired for any sort of gregarious behavior, which can only stand to reinforce the communal religious experience. We get a dopamine dump every time we stand around telling each other how wonderful the invisible guy in the sky is. As well as group athletic events and so on.
__________________
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle
Troubleshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008, 11:37 PM   #199
smoothmoniker
to live and die in LA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,090
Oh, to be sure, I still believe in invisible supernatural powers. I take issue with your characterization of why.
__________________
to live and die in LA
smoothmoniker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 12:38 AM   #200
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
I haven't speculated as to why.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 01:55 AM   #201
smoothmoniker
to live and die in LA
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint View Post
Doesn't the Bible define faith as belief despite a total lack of evidence?

This new "rational faith" is so watered down it renders the conversation meaningless.
I took that as implying that the "why" of faith was incompatible with reason.
__________________
to live and die in LA
smoothmoniker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 09:19 AM   #202
Troubleshooter
The urban Jane Goodall
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothmoniker View Post
Oh, to be sure, I still believe in invisible supernatural powers.
And this statement brings us back to the heart of the faith and science.

For faith, it's "God did it." or the Virgin Mary in a dog's butt, or Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich.

For science, it's as yet to be explained phenomena.

In light of the diminishing realm of the supernatural it makes less and less sense to say "God did it."

Faith and science don't have to be contradictory because faith is by definition the suspension of the need for explanation.
__________________
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle
Troubleshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 10:07 AM   #203
regular.joe
Старый сержант
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women.
Posts: 1,464
Amigo,

Virgin Mary in a dog's butt, Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich. Are you trying to be insulting on purpose? Do you use the most extreme idea of what faith is for a tiny segment of the worlds population for a reason? If you continue to use only the most extreme, yes crazy examples of what faith can produce, you will loose credibility with me.
__________________
Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament.

Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.
regular.joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 10:14 AM   #204
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Descriptions of faith, by people who don't have it, will always sound like the blind man describing the elephant. I guess it's the frustration that breeds the vitriol.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 10:26 AM   #205
Sundae
polaroid of perfection
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 24,185
I've seen the vitriol on both sides. I think it's more the kind of person you are than the point you are arguing.
Sundae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 10:41 AM   #206
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
Let's address the substance of the post. Crazy idea, I know.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 10:50 AM   #207
Troubleshooter
The urban Jane Goodall
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,012
Citing documented, real world examples is vitriolic?
__________________
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle
Troubleshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 11:06 AM   #208
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 20,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
faith is by definition the suspension of the need for explanation.
No, faith is an acknowledgement of the current lack of an explanation. What's more, it's a lack of an explanation for things which science cannot find an answer to. (Do you honestly believe we can determine the origins of the universe in their entirety through scientific study? That to me seems a lot more foolish than humbly accepting that we can't. We should never stop trying, but we should recognize our limits.)

You refuse to accept that there are different types of faith, and that most of them don't involve hearing voices or seeing idols in everyday objects. Until you can expand your definition, or propose a new word that you would prefer everyone use, you will get nowhere.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 11:12 AM   #209
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
Bottom line: scientific knowledge is limited, but acknowledges it's own limitations.

Religious faith, as self-described by it's adherants, is an invitation to short-circuit the discovery process; constantly addressing every as-of-yet explained phenomenon as a "supernatural" occurance.

Of course, the more sophisticated faithful will recognize varying levels of what has been adequately explained, at this point in history; but ultimately science is the refusal to "give up" and say it must be God waving his magic wand.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2008, 11:27 AM   #210
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 20,012
Quote:
Religious faith, as self-described by it's adherants, is an invitation to short-circuit the discovery process; constantly addressing every as-of-yet explained phenomenon as a "supernatural" occurance.
Cite. Not a single adherent in this discussion has described it as such, quite the opposite in fact. You and Troubleshooter both insist on asking people here to defend the beliefs of people who are not here.

I don't ascribe only unexplained phenomena to God. I ascribe the explained phenomena to God as well. Explaining something will only ever tell you how, it will never ever give you an answer to the question why. I am just as continuously and deeply interested in the how as you are.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:18 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.