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Old 08-01-2008, 03:14 AM   #106
koolhat
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waht have you lost?

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Originally Posted by lookout123 View Post
but here is the kicker - the believer risks nothing if he is wrong. if you believe there is an afterlife and then find nothing - what have you lost?

if you are an unbeliever - eternity is at risk. believing that there is no heaven or hell and then be proven wrong??? ouch.

i guess that is why it is called faith. you've got to believe it to see it.
Freedom and control of your life. Religion is to control.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:21 AM   #107
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control

What have you lost, lumberjim? Freedom and control of your life, that's all. The purpose of religion is control.
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:41 AM   #108
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It seems to me that for heaven to be perfectly peaceful, some restrictions on free will would be necessary. But that seems to diminish the attractiveness of heaven. And if it is possible to have free will and peace in heaven, then why would it not work on Earth?
This points to a basic misconception about the afterlife--that after our physical death we might remain individuals, with the name and the identity we had while alive.

If we think instead of the animating spark of life within us as a small part of a complete, singular universe, then the very idea of our individuality becomes a matter of biological constraints. These counstraints would be undone upon our death, and therefore any illusion of individuality.

We would go to heaven not as individual souls travelling to a cosmic vacation resort, but rather upon our physical death we would simply rejoin the universe we temporarily forgot that we were a part of all along.

At that point, concepts like "free will" no longer have any meaning.
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Old 08-01-2008, 12:21 PM   #109
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There is no "I" in heaven.
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Old 08-01-2008, 01:11 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolhat View Post
What have you lost, lumberjim? Freedom and control of your life, that's all. The purpose of religion is control.
the purpose of religion is control. I agree. well said.



<-----------ooooo.....12k! damn.
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:46 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolhat View Post
Freedom and control of your life. Religion is to control.
who's talking about religion? i was talking about faith.
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:44 PM   #112
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I love this question... it just cuts right thru all the bullshit.
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Old 08-02-2008, 09:23 AM   #113
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If one does not believe in heaven, how can there be or not be freewill?
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:20 AM   #114
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Oh hell, don't let that stop you. Everyone else is speculating about something they know nothing about.
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:38 AM   #115
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Quote:
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who's talking about religion? i was talking about faith.
Who is Faith?
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:46 PM   #116
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Quote:
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If one does not believe in heaven, how can there be or not be freewill?
If the laws of physics (which we still don't understand perfectly) control the behavior of the atoms in our bodies, and the atoms in our bodies control the behavior of our cells, and our cells determine what our brains do, then everything we do is determined by the way the natural environment was in motion when we were born. Our whole lives were mapped out for us before we were born. Not by a higher power, but mapped out the same way a ball will fall to the ground if you release it from your hand.

Or the other view is that we are sentient. That our consciousness is influenced by our bodies, but is separate from our bodies, and that we can make choices independent from the influences of our bodies.
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Old 08-03-2008, 05:09 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
If the laws of physics (which we still don't understand perfectly) control the behavior of the atoms in our bodies, and the atoms in our bodies control the behavior of our cells, and our cells determine what our brains do,
You left out a step right here. "... if our brain is the same thing as our sentient mind ... ". That's the step I take issue with.


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then everything we do is determined by the way the natural environment was in motion when we were born.
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Old 08-03-2008, 07:10 PM   #118
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Two words come to mind when dealing with consciousness.

Indeterminacy and emergence.
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:43 AM   #119
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You left out a step right here. "... if our brain is the same thing as our sentient mind ... ". That's the step I take issue with.
Unless you are willing to state that a "magical" factor is necessary to produe a human mind, then it is 100% certain that the natural laws of physics determine what we are.

Now, in order to claim that the human mind is a result of "magical" or "supernatural" qualities (which there is no way of avoiding if you want to claim that we are not a result of the same mundane natural laws that produce everything else) one must assume an attitude of supremely self-satisfied, human-centric egotism.
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 08-04-2008, 09:54 AM   #120
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not magic. abstract. the mind exists in abstraction. the brain exists in nature.
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