The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Home Base

Home Base A starting point, and place for threads don't seem to belong anywhere else

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-29-2010, 11:18 AM   #1
jinx
Come on, cat.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area
Posts: 7,013
Too stupid to know they're stupid.

Know anyone like this? Is it me?

Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments.


Quote:
Kruger J, Dunning D.
Department of Psychology, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853-7601, USA. jkruger@s.psych.uiuc.edu
Abstract

People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.

The Anosognosic’s Dilemma: Something’s Wrong but You’ll Never Know What It Is (Part 1)


Quote:
As Dunning read through the article, a thought washed over him, an epiphany. If Wheeler was too stupid to be a bank robber, perhaps he was also too stupid to know that he was too stupid to be a bank robber — that is, his stupidity protected him from an awareness of his own stupidity.
__________________
Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.
jinx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 11:38 AM   #2
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Good stuff!

Marichiko is the textbook example. She'd be a psychopath, but she's too dumb to pull it off.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 11:42 AM   #3
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd.
Doesn't everyone think they are roughly average and maybe just a little bit better than everyone else?

I'd love to see a chart of how everyone at each percentile point ranked themselves, on average. Not just the dummies.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 11:50 AM   #4
jinx
Come on, cat.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area
Posts: 7,013
I wondered about that too, but don't want to pay $12 to find out.
__________________
Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.
jinx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 12:30 PM   #5
lookout123
changed his status to single
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Right behind you. No, the other side.
Posts: 10,308
I think this phenomenon can be found everywhere, not just academics.

Completely ignoring the elite players who are a world apart, you can see this happening in any soccer league you find. There are always players who are less skilled or less intelligent in their play but for the most part everyone hovers pretty close to average. Then you see THAT team that has THAT player. He/she is so unbelievably shit that it is obvious to everyone except them. They can't control the ball, they can't dribble, pass, shoot, and don't understand the concept of teamplay but they are the first first to tell you how good they are. They are the first to try to be the star. They're so shit they don't even know they're shit.
__________________
Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin
lookout123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 04:18 PM   #6
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
The first part, about the stupid don't know their stupid, seems self evident. Who would make bad decisions knowing they were bad?
The second part, about mediocre people who are uneducated or not smart enough to know they're mediocre, is believable too.
But when they get into anosognosia they're talking about people that are physically damaged... they were using patients with anosognosia as an example of having the same result as the first two groups. I think they should have quit there. By the time they got to the fifth part, I'm not convinced anosognosia is a good correlation. He talks about some anosognosia patients who are apparently aware of their limitations but unconsciously and selectively choose to block them.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 06:19 PM   #7
Cicero
Looking forward to open mic night.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,148
At least I am aware that at Salsa Dancing I fail. Every time. My name is Cicero and I am a excruciatingly horrible salsa dancer. What's worse than the salsa dancing of mine? The strained look of consternation at every failed attempt. Unfortunately, knowing I am a stupid salsa dancer does not make me any smarter about it. I have not reached any new cognitive abilities because of this awareness.
__________________
Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.- Carl Jung
Cicero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 06:47 PM   #8
jinx
Come on, cat.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area
Posts: 7,013
Maybe you just have bad salsa luck Cic.
__________________
Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.
jinx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 07:47 PM   #9
piercehawkeye45
Franklin Pierce
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,695
I like the part where he tells students to find out who the smartest professors are and see what smart really looks like. There is nothing more grounding than thinking you are a genius, or elite at anything, than have someone just blow you right out of the water.

One reasons for such inflated scores could be that mediocre people usually associate with mediocre people. Dumb people usually associate with dumb people. Smart people usually associate with smart people. If you are smartest out of a mediocre group, you will have much higher confidence than being the dumbest out of the smart group, even though the latter may be much smarter than the former. We tend to forget that there are much smarter and dumber people than the small groups we associate with.
__________________
I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.
piercehawkeye45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 10:43 PM   #10
HungLikeJesus
Only looks like a disaster tourist
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: above 7,000 feet
Posts: 7,208
I've long felt that everyone is smarter than me in some way, though sometimes I have to look for a while to figure out what that way is.
__________________
Keep Your Bodies Off My Lawn

SteveDallas's Random Thread Picker.
HungLikeJesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2010, 11:03 PM   #11
gvidas
Hoodoo Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 286
Can't remember where I read it, but somewhere the inverse idea was neatly summed up as:

I am only _______ enough to know that I am not _______ enough.

I don't like the self-deprecating aftertaste, but I guess that shouldn't be the point. (It can be an affirming idea)
gvidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2010, 01:16 AM   #12
Urbane Guerrilla
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Good stuff!

Marichiko is the textbook example. She'd be a psychopath, but she's too dumb to pull it off.
Undertoad's among the veterans who remember M. He also knows more than I do about whatever it was she did that was the last straw.
__________________
Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.
Urbane Guerrilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2010, 01:44 PM   #13
BrianR
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,338
I have read and seen a similar phenomena regarding driving skills. Some Insurance institute did a study whose results were almost funny. Some 85% of drivers rated themselves "above average". Then they were administered a basic driving test with questions culled from written driving tests nationwide. 60% flunked. As a daily driver, I agree and might even suggest that the actual figures are even worse as some may have passed the test by guessing.
__________________
Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous
BrianR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2010, 06:43 PM   #14
Aliantha
trying hard to be a better person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 16,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus View Post
I've long felt that everyone is smarter than me in some way, though sometimes I have to look for a while to figure out what that way is.
I'm pretty sure everyone on this planet knows something I don't, and that includes my kids.

I must be pretty dumb if I don't know everything.
__________________
Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber
Aliantha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2010, 09:16 AM   #15
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianR View Post
I have read and seen a similar phenomena regarding driving skills. Some Insurance institute did a study whose results were almost funny. Some 85% of drivers rated themselves "above average". Then they were administered a basic driving test with questions culled from written driving tests nationwide. 60% flunked. As a daily driver, I agree and might even suggest that the actual figures are even worse as some may have passed the test by guessing.
Lil' Pete turned 16 so I've made it a habit to critique the driving around us when we travel together to give her a sense of what is safe/legal etc.. My commentary is almost non-stop, people are consistently stupid behind the wheel. It is almost like they have no sense of the physical world. I've had to rat myself out a couple times as well, which has improved my habits.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:04 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.