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-   -   Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=34936)

Clodfobble 03-04-2020 12:41 PM

Indoors, or outdoors?

Undertoad 03-04-2020 12:51 PM

Indoors, catered, major hotel chain

Clodfobble 03-04-2020 01:21 PM

I'd say you'll be at the whims of the hotel. If they cancel closer to May, you'll get your deposit back. If you cancel now, you won't. So you might as well just keep the date set, and see what happens.

The 80+ year olds may need to skip it when the time comes, but that could be true of any rescheduled date in the future, too. For comparison, the Spanish Flu circled the globe for over a year, and had multiple major waves of infection in all countries. China, for example, is already seeing cases *imported* from other countries now. I suspect we'll do better than we did in 1918, but not by much.

BigV 03-04-2020 02:25 PM

What's my role in the wedding?

If I'm the groom or in the wedding party, it's up to the decision of the bride and groom.

If I'm a guest, pass.

Griff 03-04-2020 03:04 PM

We might be stable by May? China is restricting travel in now...

glatt 03-04-2020 03:45 PM

If people are driving up, they won't be exposed to any more germs than if they were going to the grocery store.

If I were a guest, I would likely attend, unless major shit hits the fan.

But then again, I ride the Metro every day. My tolerance for being exposed to shit is a lot higher than most people's, and my immune system is likely stronger for it.

Then again, it's attitudes like mine that make the 50-59 demographic the highest infection rate in China.

sexobon 03-04-2020 04:24 PM

Is the couple registered for wedding gifts at a medical supply store?

Enough for wedding party and guests:

masks
gloves
gowns
booties
hand sanitizer
snot rags (tissues)
barf bags
aspirin
children's Tylenol
...etc.

Clodfobble 03-04-2020 04:26 PM

Also, calling it here first: the Pope's gonna be dead by the end of next week.

glatt 03-04-2020 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 1047847)
Also, calling it here first: the Pope's gonna be dead by the end of next week.



LOL. That’s so specific.

Clodfobble 03-04-2020 04:29 PM

The Vatican announced very, very firmly that he doesn't have it. He totally has it.

tw 03-04-2020 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 1047847)
Also, calling it here first: the Pope's gonna be dead by the end of next week.

That's how the Roman Curia will kill him. Then blame it on failures by the Chinese. Since they said it, it must be true. So the Curia will not even be suspect.

Until we hear about it years later on "Unsolved Mysteries".

monster 03-04-2020 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1047825)
Let's say you had a wedding scheduled for May 2 at Niagara Falls, with 25 people driving up to attend, including 3 people over 80 and 1 two-year-old. What would you do?

invite me.....

monster 03-04-2020 09:22 PM

oh wait, regarding COVID? go for it. They don't allow cruise ships at that time of year -flow too fast from melting snow. And invite me. I need a day out. US or CA side? :D

you'll be fine. Like the wise one says, let the hotel call the shots..... Do the couple in question have any wedding insurance? might not be a bad idea if doable, would cover stuff not paid to hotel....

Undertoad 03-04-2020 10:01 PM

Today I sat in on an emergency conference call to manage a single DNS entry, so that a major international corporation could report tomorrow morning that they are able to have 50,000 people work from home if necessary.

glatt 03-05-2020 08:42 AM

I just got a CNN email alert that the first case in Virginia has been identified, and the patient is in a hospital 6 miles from my house. A local person.

First of all, why am I getting CNN emails? I never signed up for that.

And second, it's amazing how when you actually test for something, you start to find it. You aren't going to see it unless you look for it. This thing is everywhere already.

glatt 03-05-2020 09:28 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I'm wondering now. I think this is fake news. I think the "CNN" email I got was an anti-phishing test being done by my employer.

There is one guy on staff who is supposed to trick us by sending us fake emails and getting us to click on links. If we fail the tests, we have to undergo additional training.

This email is from... Wait. I don't want to paste the text because they can search for it and find me on the Cellar.

Here's a screenshot :
Attachment 69960

I can't find the email address on the web. And I can't find any story on the web about an infection in my town.

The headline misspells "it's" by putting the apostrophe where it doesn't belong, making it "it is" instead of "its." That's the only giveaway that this email is fake, plus I never signed up for CNN.

Sorry for the distraction. If this is a test, it's in very poor taste.

tw 03-05-2020 09:59 AM

Testing for the virus means identifying a possible victim, getting a test kit (which is not easily obtained), sending it to Atlanta (that is a day and a half at least), 24 hours to do that test, and only then are results known.

For example, one possible Covid-19 infected person in Northern Virginia was still awaiting results as of yesterday. A person is infected for three days before doctors can even say he is infected.

Pennsylvania is spending a quarter $million to setup just one testing lab only outside Philadelphia. Now that the CDC was permitted to address the threat and finally had a testing solution. A threat that was obvious two months ago - when it was being ignored at the highest levels of government (we know who that was).

Is someone from your neighborhood infected? Could be. As of yesterday, they were still awaiting many days for the only lab (Atlanta) to do testing. One day just to get that test kit to the lab - if expedited. Because we ignored the threat two months ago.

Since he is still awaiting results, some will immediately conclude he is already infected because he was quarantined.

Clodfobble 03-05-2020 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt
There is one guy on staff who is supposed to trick us by sending us fake emails and getting us to click on links. If we fail the tests, we have to undergo additional training.

That genuinely sounds like a fun job.

BigV 03-05-2020 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1047901)
--snip

If this is a test, it's in very poor taste.

If it's a test, it may well be in very poor taste. I'm not willing or able to judge the standards at your company.

However, if it's a test, it's an excellent example. The major impetus the bad guys are trying activate to is a sense of urgency. They want to stampede you into clicking on something. I've seen it happen. I've been stampeded by the bad guys myself. This is the perfect bait for such a trap.

Luce 03-05-2020 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1047901)
There is one guy on staff who is supposed to trick us by sending us fake emails and getting us to click on links. If we fail the tests, we have to undergo additional training.

He's literally paid to be a F*ckedCompany troll.

That's living the damn dream, that's what that is.

Griff 03-05-2020 12:44 PM

Pete's company does this. I think the IT department does a giveaway, like dinner or something, to one of the people who reports the suspicious activity.

glatt 03-05-2020 02:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Memo just came down from the top. Apparently some powerful people in the firm were not amused.

Attachment 69962

The memo went on to talk about the Coronavirus and told us to wash our hands, don't travel to China or Italy for spring break, and stay home if we are sick. Lots of other details, but that's the gist of it.

I need to brush up on remote computing. It's a little convoluted.

BigV 03-05-2020 05:25 PM

Thanks boss for perfectly making my point.

I'd bet the rent some "powerful" person "at the top" took the bait.

sexobon 03-05-2020 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1047937)
… The memo went on to talk about the Coronavirus ...

Did it say if the Chinese have patented it?

xoxoxoBruce 03-05-2020 09:13 PM

From OSHA

Quote:

Purpose or Intended Use

Surgical masks
• May include masks labeled as surgical, laser, isolation, dental, or medical procedure masks
• Are primarily intended to protect the patient, not the wearer, from the wearer's saliva and respiratory secretions
• May also help protect the wearer against exposure to microorganisms, body fluids, and large particles in the air but are not tight fitting and likely have substantial inward leakage for particles and organisms
• Are designed to cover the mouth and nose loosely but are not sized for individual fit
• Are not NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health) approved

Surgical N95 respirators
• Surgical N95 respirators are designed to reduce but cannot eliminate the wearer’s exposure to airborne biological contaminants. They do not eliminate the risk of illness, disease, or death.
• Form a tight seal over the mouth and nose.
• Require fit-testing and must be adjusted to your face to provide the intended effectiveness of filtering 95 percent of particles with a mass median diameter of 0.3 micrometers.
• Employers and users are required to follow the OSHA Respiratory Protection Standard, 29CFR 1910.134, as well as other state or local regulations, as appropriate.
• Have specific use instructions, warnings, and limitations for use in health care environments.
• Are NIOSH certified.
• Are fluid resistant to a certified level measured against a stream of artificial blood directed at the respirator.

Industrial N95 respirators
• Are designed to reduce but cannot eliminate the wearer's exposure against certain airborne particles and aerosols free of oil.
• Form a tight seal over the mouth and nose.
• Employers and users are required to follow the OSHA Respiratory Protection Standard, 29CFR 1910.134, as well as other state or local regulations, as appropriate.
• These respirators (without valves) also can help prevent exhalation of contamination by the wearer to others in the work environment.
• Require fit-testing and must be adjusted to your face to provide the intended effectiveness of filtering 95 percent of particles with mass median diameter of 0.3 micrometers.
• Have specific use instructions, warnings, and limitations for use in industrial environments.
• Are NIOSH certified.
• Are not certified to be fluid resistant.

Approval and Certification

Surgical masks
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) clears surgical masks for sale in the United States. FDA does not test and certify the respirator. Instead, they clear the respirator for sale after reviewing the manufacturer's test data and proposed claims. The manufacturer performs and submits the results from several tests, including particle filtration efficiency, bacterial filter efficiency, fluid resistance, etc.
The particulate filter efficiency gives an indication of the quality of the health care surgical mask. However, this rating is completely different and far less rigorous than the NIOSH N95 filter efficiency rating and should not be used as a comparison between the two.

Surgical N95 respirators
Surgical N95 respirators are approved by NIOSH as to their respiratory protection efficiency and resistance and other NIOSH requirements. They are also separately cleared by FDA as medical devices. FDA clears surgical masks for sale in the United States but does not test and certify the respirator. Instead, the agency clears the respirator for sale after reviewing the manufacturer's test data and proposed claims. The manufacturer performs and submits the results from several tests, including particle filtration efficiency, bacterial filter efficiency, fluid resistance, etc.
The biological filter efficiency gives an indication of the quality of the health care surgical mask. However, this rating is completely different and far less rigorous than the NIOSH filter efficiency rating and should not be used as a comparison between the two. Surgical N95 respirators and N95 industrial respirators share the same NIOSH requirements. NIOSH also has other efficiency certification levels for industrial respirators (see below).

Industrial respirators (including industrial N95 respirators) and Surgical N95 respirators
In the United States, NIOSH is responsible for testing and certifying respirators to be used in the workplace. NIOSH not only reviews the manufacturer's test data, but also performs its own independent tests on the respirators in NIOSH's governmental laboratories to verify the manufacturer's results. The tests include filter efficiency, degradation, and flow rate, to name a few. In addition to testing the respirators during the submittal process, NIOSH also will periodically purchase respirators in the field and test them to make sure the respirators are performing to their original certification.
Once the respirator is initially approved, NIOSH will certify its classification as N, R, or P and its filter efficiency as 95 percent, 99 percent, or 99.97 percent. It is also important to note that even though a respirator just by its use often helps to prevent the wearer from contaminating the environment; it cannot be considered a surgical mask unless it has been cleared by the FDA.

Surgical masks
The most important thing to remember about surgical masks is that they are not designed to pass a fit test. As explained above, their purpose is to help protect the environment and other nearby persons from the wearer's contaminants. When many surgical masks are worn, they will have gaps around the edges that allow many small particles to enter the respiratory system of the wearer. Even tighter-fitting surgical masks will have some gaps that allow small particles to enter the wearer’s respiratory system.

Surgical N95 and industrial N95 respirators
Respirators are designed to seal the respirator to the face and pass a fit test. Under Respiratory Protection Standard 29 CFR 1910.134, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration requires the wearer of a respirator to be fit tested before he or she can use the respirator in a contaminated environment. OSHA also requires the wearer to perform user seal checks on the respirator before each use, as well as comply with the other elements of a comprehensive respiratory protection program in accordance with 29 CFR 1910.134.
If the wearer is unable to obtain a proper fit, he or she must not enter the contaminated area. For more information on this standard, visit the OSHA website, www.osha.gov.
A properly fit-tested N95 respirator will greatly reduce the number of small particles that will enter the wearer’s respiratory system, as compared to a surgical mask that is not NIOSH approved. The extent of that reduction is a function of the fit of the mask, its filtration efficiency level (with respirators available from 95 percent to 99.97 percent filter efficiency), and the wearer’s proper donning and wearing of the respirator according to the training the employer provides as required by OSHA regulations.

Length of Wear

Surgical masks
While each facility has its own policy, surgical masks in general are discarded after each procedure. They are typically worn only for specific procedures.

Surgical N95 and industrial N95 respirators
Respirators must be put on and taken off in an area outside of the contaminated area. Putting a respirator on or taking it off even for a few seconds in a contaminated area can expose the wearer to significant levels of hazards. Each facility has its own policy on disposal of the respirator, depending on use conditions and the type of hazard that these products are being used to protect against.


sexobon 03-05-2020 10:06 PM

I have a couple of these (twin port version) and always have one of them in my car: https://www.avon-protection.com/products/fm53.htm

You can get them on Amazon (filters, required, sold separately): Avon FM53

Undertoad 03-07-2020 10:20 PM

http://cellar.org/img/coronatweets.jpg

Clodfobble 03-07-2020 10:48 PM

My in-laws visited today. MIL in particular seemed completely clueless about the whole thing. She was stunned to hear of Mr. Clod's office closing, and about our school preparing for distance learning plans in the face of inevitable closures. She kept referring to the coronavirus as "the flu." She talked about her big vacation in June, and I didn't have the heart to tell her that her flight will almost certainly be cancelled, and by then she won't want to leave her house anyway.

Luce 03-08-2020 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 1048082)
My in-laws visited today. MIL in particular seemed completely clueless about the whole thing. She was stunned to hear of Mr. Clod's office closing, and about our school preparing for distance learning plans in the face of inevitable closures. She kept referring to the coronavirus as "the flu." She talked about her big vacation in June, and I didn't have the heart to tell her that her flight will almost certainly be cancelled, and by then she won't want to leave her house anyway.


https://apnews.com/921ad7f1f08d7634b...0xq4tH-Hcsn_fw

Quote:

NEW YORK (AP) — The White House overruled health officials who wanted to recommend that elderly and physically fragile Americans be advised not to fly on commercial airlines because of the new coronavirus, a federal official told The Associated Press.
And if there's any question of motive, here...

Quote:

But Trump also detoured from that message, calling Washington state’s governor a “snake” and saying he’d prefer that people exposed to the virus on a cruise ship be left aboard so they wouldn’t be added to the nation’s tally.
(bolding mine)

sexobon 03-08-2020 09:02 AM

I wouldn't want them added to the nation's tally of disease vectors either.

If they're quarantined while contagious, they're effectively no longer a vector.

tw 03-09-2020 09:53 AM

Quarantine does not solve the problem. Apparently people are contagious even before they have symptoms.

Experience aboard the Diamond Princess suggests that this virus can spread airborne. Not just from contact spewed from an infected person. But this is an even greater problem. How the contagious spread this virus is either unknown or is being withheld by top government officials (ie Pence). That is his job. Obstruct information - to protect the administration.

We should have known long ago (had government started addressing the problem over two months ago) how this virus spreads, how long it can survive on surfaces (or if airborne), if it can pass through the skin, and how long a person can be contagious before symptoms appear.

Instead we have White House lies that a vaccine will soon be available. Reality - it cannot be available til at least next year. Lies that the public does not need facemasks. Lies because this president is more concerned with his reelection than in addressing any problem. He ignored it until the stock market eventually crashed. And we still do not have answers to those four questions.

glatt 03-09-2020 10:20 AM

Surely there are trustworthy governments elsewhere in the first world that are studying this thing. What do they have to say? Germany isn't corrupt, is it? Canada? France? What do their health departments say?

Luce 03-09-2020 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 1048089)
I wouldn't want them added to the nation's tally of disease vectors either.

If they're quarantined while contagious, they're effectively no longer a vector.

How'd that work out in Japan?

Luce 03-09-2020 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1048124)
Surely there are trustworthy governments elsewhere in the first world that are studying this thing. What do they have to say? Germany isn't corrupt, is it? Canada? France? What do their health departments say?

Japan shut their schools down, asked for a 2 meter distance between people as much as possible, and said that sick people wear masks, not healthy people.

I say do all that plus bleach every doorknob in the plant every day before lunch.

Luce 03-09-2020 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 1048123)
how long it can survive on surfaces (or if airborne), if it can pass through the skin, and how long a person can be contagious before symptoms appear.

You're correct. These are the most important pieces of information that are required.

And we're not going to find out, at least not through the US government, because all Trump can do is worry about "how it makes him look," and Pence is only good for prayer breakfasts.

Undertoad 03-09-2020 11:11 AM

Thank goodness Congress allocated millions to the CDC in December

...to study gun control

Luce 03-09-2020 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1048129)
Thank goodness Congress allocated millions to the CDC in December

...to study gun control

They also study cancer and mental illness.

But yes, that is more the bailiwick of BATF.

Diaphone Jim 03-09-2020 11:53 AM

The VA is recommending that veterans best response to Covid-19 is to get a flu shot.

Luce 03-09-2020 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diaphone Jim (Post 1048132)
The VA is recommending that veterans best response to Covid-19 is to get a flu shot.

Getting a flu shot is never a bad idea, but it is pretty much useless against the coronavirus.

Happy Monkey 03-09-2020 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce (Post 1048130)
They also study cancer and mental illness.

But yes, that is more the bailiwick of BATF.

I don't think that the BATF does health effect studies, it's a law enforcement agency. If we're going strictly on name-of-agency criticisms, NIH might be a better match, just because it doesn't specifically have the word "disease" in its name.

Undertoad 03-09-2020 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce (Post 1048128)
You're correct. These are the most important pieces of information that are required.

And we're not going to find out, at least not through the US government, because all Trump can do is worry about "how it makes him look," and Pence is only good for prayer breakfasts.

Obviously, we will know that concern for the virus overrides concern for Trump when the media is busy sharing information about it, instead of sharing information about Trump.

And the same is true for us, in this forum

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...infection.html

Quote:

Based on what is currently known about the novel coronavirus and similar coronaviruses that cause SARS and MERS, spread from person-to-person with these viruses happens most frequently among close contacts (within about 6 feet). This type of transmission occurs via respiratory droplets. On the other hand, transmission of novel coronavirus to persons from surfaces contaminated with the virus has not been documented. Transmission of coronavirus occurs much more commonly through respiratory droplets than through fomites. Current evidence suggests that novel coronavirus may remain viable for hours to days on surfaces made from a variety of materials. Cleaning of visibly dirty surfaces followed by disinfection is a best practice measure for prevention of COVID-19 and other viral respiratory illnesses in households and community settings.
If you are hearing about Trump duing COVID-19 news reports, you will know you are being under served by a media which used to be all about sharing important information, and is now entirely about politics, and will not inform you of the facts you need to know.

Happy Monkey 03-09-2020 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1048136)
Obviously, we will know that concern for the virus overrides concern for Trump when the media is busy sharing information about it, instead of sharing information about Trump.

Instead? There is only concern for the virus when Trump's management of the US response is completely ignored?

Undertoad 03-09-2020 01:09 PM

I was going to rewrite to benefit your quibble, but I'm betting my point has been made.

History will tell us whether the flu, or panic over it, is a bigger problem. If history says flu, the Pres has been terrible. If history says panic, the Pres has been on point.

Place your bets

tw 03-09-2020 01:34 PM

Quote:

Transmission of coronavirus occurs much more commonly through respiratory droplets than through fomites. Current evidence suggests that novel coronavirus may remain viable for hours to days on surfaces
President's authorized doctor says it only last but a few hours. Which is it? Hours or days? If Trump has a Czar (who known nothing about medicine or emergency response) who is suppose to keep us informed with honest facts, then where are those facts?

UT, when will you stick to honest facts and not routinely post your irrelevant emotions? You are not the same person I knew some thirty years ago. Back then, UT would not be wasting bandwidth with words such as quibble. Meanwhile, as usual, I expect more quibble from you. It is becoming routine from a UT that went right wing extremist.

Reasons this 'flu' are different. It is much more contagious. And has a higher death rate. Apparently because infected people (as with Typhoid Mary) do not even know they are infecting their peers. Apparently do not have symptoms when first sick.

We don't really know why this virus is so more contagious. Facts (honesty) are in short supply. Combined with a president who also takes cheapshots at, for example, the Grand Princess.

Undertoad 03-09-2020 01:37 PM

So, we'll have to agree on levels of deaths vs levels of panic, does anyone want to weigh in on the number of deaths that would be worse than panic so far?

Starting point: flu kills 27-70,000 in US per year

tw 03-09-2020 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce (Post 1048134)
Getting a flu shot is never a bad idea, but it is pretty much useless against the coronavirus.

Medicine must predict what flues will be active almost one year in advance. And then design a flu shot only for those particular viruses.

Current flu shot was not designed for this virus. Nobody knew it was coming until a (now dead) doctor in China discovered it. Flues typically do not spread this fast - are not this contagious. So a vaccine is not possible for about a year or maybe longer - despite lies from a president who is loved for constantly lying.

tw 03-09-2020 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1048142)
So, we'll have to agree on levels of deaths vs levels of panic, ...

Panic is created by a lack of honest information. And by social media where people cannot bother to learn facts before posting their emotions.

Death rate from a conventional flu is typically 1.3%. Death rate from Covid-19 is somewhere between 2 and 3%. In China, they are claiming 3.4%. Well they have more experience. But also have a problem with first obtaining honest data. But that much higher death rate is another reason for honest concern. And why it was obvious in the beginning of January that this virus was a serious threat.

It even killed the doctor who discovered it.

Happy Monkey 03-09-2020 02:03 PM

"Corona flu" is Trump's term for it; it's a different virus from the flu.

Avoiding a panic is more than just saying "don't panic" (sorry HHGTG), or "lots of people get better while going to work"; panic is also a failure. The problem with news reports about Trump's antics isn't the reports, it's the antics. To prevent panic, Trump should detail the pandemic preparation that is in progress, to demonstrate that such preparation exists in the short term, and in the long term to prevent sudden panic if it is sprung on people at the last minute, in the case that it needs to go into effect.

tw 03-09-2020 02:53 PM

From a Paper made available to the CDC about 12 Feb 2020:
Quote:

Originally Posted by https://academic.oup.com/ije/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ije/dyaa033/5748175
Results: Inadequate risk assessment regarding the urgency of the situation, and limited reporting on the virus within China has, in part, led to the rapid spread of COVID-19 throughout mainland China and into proximal and distant countries. Compared with SARS and MERS, COVID-19 has spread more rapidly, due in part to increased globalization and the focus of the epidemic. Wuhan, China is a large hub connecting the North, South, East and West of China via railways and a major international airport. The availability of connecting flights, the timing of the outbreak during the Chinese (Lunar) New Year, and the massive rail transit hub located in Wuhan has enabled the virus to perforate throughout China, and eventually, globally.

Conclusions: We conclude that we did not learn from the two prior epidemics of coronavirus and were ill-prepared to deal with the challenges the COVID-19 epidemic has posed. Future research should attempt to address the uses and implications of internet of things (IoT) technologies for mapping the spread of infection.

Science was discussing this threat two months ago. Trump, using his 30 second attention span, ignored it until the Stock Markets finally started crashing.

MERS was another coronavirus that remains undetected for two years. Its death rate was about 32%. A higher death rate and other factors are why the pandemic did not become global - a greater threat.

One reason why Covid-19 is not as widespread: Chinese published the genetic map of Covid within eight days of identifying it (at higher levels). Published those facts in the first half of Jan 2020. One reason why it did spread was noted earlier. Wuhan is the Chinese equivalent of Chicago.

Apparently one factor that must exist to limit widespread infection is a negatively pressurized room. Apparently this virus can spread by other factors beyond droplets - ie sneezing and coughing. Mistakes, since learned, resulted in an 18% to 20 some percent death rate from other coronaviruses among medical personal.

Possible infections via ventilation systems and other means has not been mentioned - and should be. Since we need such facts - to even avoid panic.

We could have been making face masks months ago. Face mask is to protect others. But the Feds did not act. 3M, Prestige, and other facemask companies only started hiring people and increasing production last week. Only after the government was finally given permission by a president to address it. Only after stock markets crashed.

Griff 03-09-2020 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 1048147)
"Corona flu" is Trump's term for it; it's a different virus from the flu.

Avoiding a panic is more than just saying "don't panic" (sorry HHGTG), or "lots of people get better while going to work"; panic is also a failure. The problem with news reports about Trump's antics isn't the reports, it's the antics. To prevent panic, Trump should detail the pandemic preparation that is in progress, to demonstrate that such preparation exists in the short term, and in the long term to prevent sudden panic if it is sprung on people at the last minute, in the case that it needs to go into effect.

It's my understanding that he was elected to wreck shit.

I actually contract with county health depts in my current gig. We've always wiped and washed materials and avoided sharing across kids. Now the shelves are empty of alcohol based wipes... Cuomo has the slav.. prison labor making alcohol sanitizers. I half expect home visits to end at some point, possibly when the local schools start closing. We still don't know enough to say it's panic time or stupid to panic. Last I read it was only known to spread by air but we really don't know do we.

glatt 03-09-2020 03:40 PM

Just got a phone call from my boss.

She is taking a survey of all of her staff's ability to work from home.

So they are making lists.

Flint 03-09-2020 03:44 PM

Wow.

Griff 03-09-2020 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1048157)
Just got a phone call from my boss.

She is taking a survey of all of her staff's ability to work from home.

So they are making lists.

Separating staff is useful so you don't lose an entire office out sick. Some companies are splitting into on and off site groups even if they can't work from home.

Undertoad 03-09-2020 04:08 PM

Quote:

Possible infections via ventilation systems and other means has not been mentioned - and should be. Since we need such facts - to even avoid panic.
Exactly: we need facts we don't have, in order to avoid panic!

(Since it's not proven whether ventilation systems can transmit it -- but like my CDC text noted, most cases are from close contact of 6 feet or less)

glatt 03-09-2020 04:09 PM

Another random thought...

I got an email from our priest on Thursday afternoon, that a new policy at church is: no more dipping the bread into the chalice of wine at communion because of dirty fingers. But sipping from the cup was still allowed. Or you could decline altogether, and that's cool too.

At the service on Sunday, two days later, she made an announcement retracting the Thursday communication because a mandate had come down from the Bishop of Virginia. No wine. Bread only.

So then I read in the paper today (Monday) that there is a different priest in DC who was hospitalized, and tested positive on Thursday for the virus. That priest had given communion the previous Sunday (which presumably includes drinking first from the communal cup). He felt healthy when he gave communion and was symptom free, but felt like he had a mild cold a few days before that, from which he recovered. Mid-week last week, after giving communion, he crashed hard and went to the hospital, where he tested positive for Covid-19. He likely picked it up at a conference he attended in the Midwest two weeks ago.

The communal cup has always seemed gross to me, and I have always been bread dipper. But I'm glad they are cutting out the wine entirely.

The thing in all this that leaves the biggest impression on me is that the church, which is built on 2 thousand years of tradition, reacted extremely quickly as soon as the risk became obvious. Sick priest in neighboring jurisdiction on Thursday, and edict from Bishop on Saturday impacting services on Sunday.

We are also not supposed to shake hands during the peace. Fist bumps instead.

sexobon 03-09-2020 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 1048123)
Quarantine does not solve the problem.

It's never been a choice between solving the problem in its entirety or doing nothing. Partial solutions like quarantine can have a huge impact on morbidity and mortality. There's no vaccine for coronavirus which is why we have to do everything we can to contain it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 1048123)
Apparently people are contagious even before they have symptoms. ...

That's the way it is with the cold, flu and other viruses. That doesn't mean you do nothing to stop further transmission after the disease presents symptomatically; or, is identified through testing beforehand. People are also contagious for awhile after the disappearance of symptoms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce (Post 1048126)
How'd that work out in Japan?

Doesn't matter. When done properly, it works. Doing it improperly doesn't invalidate the procedure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce (Post 1048134)
Getting a flu shot is never a bad idea, but it is pretty much useless against the coronavirus.

It may improve the healthcare you receive for coronavirus. Flu prevention helps keep the Flu's burden on the healthcare system down in case the number of coronavirus patients goes up. That's why the Flu shot is being recommended.

tw 03-09-2020 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1048164)
Exactly: we need facts we don't have, in order to avoid panic!

Week after that CDC report was published (almost a month after preliminary facts from that report were known), the scumbag president said a Covid-19 threat was "over blown". He accused his enemies of inventing a threat - as any head of a communist party would also do. He said only 5 people had the virus. And expected that number to drop to one.

Of course he was lying. Science said so. But that meant honesty. This scumbag president and his supporters have contempt for honesty.

That is a leader averting panic? Exactly why Russians are openly campaigning for that lying Don. How to create panic? Lie. Destroy credibility. Create confusion and doubt. Encourage wild and extremist accusations on social media. Trump is doing that. The Russians love it.

Patriotic Americans know he lies constantly - multiple times daily according to domestic and international news services. Then entrenched extremists become even more entrenched. Russians want the resulting dissension. Confusion. Panic.

We need honest facts. Can people who know those facts tell us the truth? Of course not. The Don needs us to stay ignorant. If working for America, then a responsible and educated man was put in charge: Surgeon General. That is his job. But a Surgeon General would state things based in honesty and science.

Trump wants a man who will lie incessantly. So he assigned VP Pence the job of keeping us informed - and ignorant.

How is panic created? When a leader is so corrupt as to lie, then truth (and trust) cannot exist. When he assigns a political extremist the job of stifling facts and lying (to get Trump reelected), then panic is more likely.

He even lied about the Grand Princess. He said straight out, he did not want the number of Covid-19 infected people to double. A classic business school graduate. He is only worried about the numbers. Not about reality.

Grand Princess passengers should have been quarantined in locations where a coronavirus does not spread. Instead, that president wants a virus to remain trapped at sea where is will spread from tens to a thousand people. Then his numbers look better. He can blame the resulting deaths on some other nation. Classic example of a man with a 30 second attention span and no ethics. Who knows he can murder someone on 5th Ave and still get elected. He knows who in America he can lie to.

Four necessary questions remain unanswered. We need those answers to avoid panic. Access to knowledge must wait for VP Pence to decide "if we can handle the truth".

sexobon 03-09-2020 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1048165)
… The communal cup has always seemed gross to me, and I have always been bread dipper. But I'm glad they are cutting out the wine entirely. ...

They should replace it with lime juice.

I've heard that some like lime in their Corona.

tw 03-09-2020 05:40 PM

Intentionally misquoted to misrepresent the point:
Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 1048123)
Quarantine does not solve the problem.

What was posted:
Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 1048123)
Quarantine does not solve the problem. Apparently people are contagious even before they have symptoms.

The point ignored by a reply.
Quote:

Experience aboard the Diamond Princess suggests that this virus can spread airborne. Not just from contact spewed from an infected person. But this is an even greater problem.
We don't know how it spreads. Or those facts are being withheld by a VP whose job is to spin things for political advantage.

Does not matter if people are contagious after symptoms are gone. Currently irrelevant. Required is to detect people BEFORE symptoms exist. That is a problem. Because only 200 test kits were available (and not being produced) when clear was a threat that required maybe a million or more.

First, one was tested for other flu viruses. And then retested; to wait another three days for results from Atlanta. Only 200 test kits were available. Meaning infected people remained undetected for up to a week. A week after they had be contagious maybe a previous week.

All this takes so long because a scumbag president even claimed this threat was "over blown". His exact words. He stifled actions to get ahead of the threat. His own words say so.

Facts that say why a quarantine cannot solve the problem. Especially if this virus survives well past summer - as some scientists have been asking (before Pence took over). Another point relevant to a sentence taken out of context.

Another question. Once one has recovered, is he immune from another infection? We need answers - not political lies. Apparently we "cannot handle the truth".
Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 1048169)
Flu prevention helps keep the Flu's burden on the healthcare system down in case the number of coronavirus patients goes up.

A valid point.

Undertoad 03-09-2020 05:49 PM

We all know that if the Presidential reaction was heavy over-reaction, then the tw reaction would be that it was an unnecessary and expensive over-reaction.

Orange man bad; so, just take the opposite of orange man, always good.

That's why I said we need to take sides on whether the panic is worse, or the deaths.

If the regular flu kills up to 70,000, what say let's put the over-under for this level of panic at 80,000 dead. The panic has resulted in the loss of 6 trillion dollars in valuations of public companies, and the loss of who knows how much economic activity. So a number worse than the regular flu is warranted. 80,000, place your bets.


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