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-   -   Vit C, Vit D, Zinc and Grape Seed Extract (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=35401)

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 02:01 PM

Vit C, Vit D, Zinc and Grape Seed Extract
 
Keep me from fearing Covid B.S. But of course the know it all's don't mention these for a Strong Immune System...

Get that mask on, keep that distance and sanitize those hands all day.

And that vaccine is coming, so hold on.

No vaccine for me and this body has not had one in 30-40 yrs.

glatt 10-12-2020 02:10 PM

"Covid B.S."

What specifically is B.S.? Are you saying the infection and death statistics are a hoax? Or is it more nuanced, that those numbers are real, but that your vitamin regimen is all the protection you need?

Flint 10-12-2020 02:19 PM

This is MUCH WORSE than "yelling fire in a crowded theater" --this is the moral equivalent of pricking random strangers with an AIDS-infected needle.

Ibby 10-12-2020 02:35 PM

According to the National Institutes of Health:

Quote:

  • Some studies suggest that grape seed extract might help with symptoms of chronic venous insufficiency and with eye stress from glare, but the evidence isnít strong.
  • Conflicting results have come from studies on grape seed extractís effect on blood pressure. Itís possible that grape seed extract might help to slightly lower blood pressure in healthy people and those with high blood pressure, particularly in people who are obese or have metabolic syndrome. But people with high blood pressure should not take high doses of grape seed extract with vitamin C because the combination might worsen blood pressure.
  • A 2019 review of 15 studies involving 825 participants suggested that grape seed extract might help lower levels of LDL cholesterol, total cholesterol, triglycerides, and the inflammatory marker C-reactive protein. The individual studies, however, were small in size, which could affect the interpretation of the results.
  • The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) is supporting research on how certain dietary supplements rich in polyphenols, including grape seed extract, help to reduce the effects of stress on the body and mind. (Polyphenols are substances that are found in many plants and have antioxidant activity.) This research is also looking at how the microbiome affects the absorption of the specific polyphenol components that are helpful.

That means that, according to all scientific studies reviewed by the part of the NIH that studies "complementary health products and practices" (i.e. "alternative medicine"), there might be a tiny bit of (very limited, so far) evidence that it can help with a few specific conditions - blood pressure, cholesterol, "stress", eye strain. That might be true! there isn't enough evidence yet to say conclusively, but it's not a huge stretch to think that, sure, maybe there are some minor benefits to certain conditions. a lot of chemicals and other "supplements" might have some, very minor, hard to prove benefits.
but to spread the idea that it will protect you from deadly plagues? that's extremely dangerous. there is absolutely no evidence of that, except from people trying to sell it.

obviously, you aren't going to trust anything the National Institutes of Health has to say. certainly there are reasons to think critically about what the government has to say on, well, anything. but if the best that the organization dedicated to vindicating alternative health care claims can come up with is "it might, maybe, sorta, help with blood pressure and eye strain", thats a really, really good reason to think very, very critically about the claims being made by the people who want to sell you more of this chemical.

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1060262)
"Covid B.S."

What specifically is B.S.? Are you saying the infection and death statistics are a hoax? Or is it more nuanced, that those numbers are real, but that your vitamin regimen is all the protection you need?

I didn't say Hoax, you did, it's been planned I believe and truly believe it's been handled so badly...shutting down the world ....

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibby (Post 1060277)
According to the National Institutes of Health:



That means that, according to all scientific studies reviewed by the part of the NIH that studies "complementary health products and practices" (i.e. "alternative medicine"), there might be a tiny bit of (very limited, so far) evidence that it can help with a few specific conditions - blood pressure, cholesterol, "stress", eye strain. That might be true! there isn't enough evidence yet to say conclusively, but it's not a huge stretch to think that, sure, maybe there are some minor benefits to certain conditions. a lot of chemicals and other "supplements" might have some, very minor, hard to prove benefits.
but to spread the idea that it will protect you from deadly plagues? that's extremely dangerous. there is absolutely no evidence of that, except from people trying to sell it.

obviously, you aren't going to trust anything the National Institutes of Health has to say. certainly there are reasons to think critically about what the government has to say on, well, anything. but if the best that the organization dedicated to vindicating alternative health care claims can come up with is "it might, maybe, sorta, help with blood pressure and eye strain", thats a really, really good reason to think very, very critically about the claims being made by the people who want to sell you more of this chemical.

There are 1000's of specialists on viruses and I've heard a good group and so I have formed my opinions...I don't sit glued to a tv.

Ibby 10-12-2020 02:54 PM

"planned" by who? how? planned in what way?

how would you have preferred it been handled? is there a better way to stop the transmission of a deadly, airborne, highly virulent plague than preventing contact and avoiding traveling to places where you can bring it with you?

Ibby 10-12-2020 02:56 PM

thousands of specialists on viruses that say dietary supplements can prevent them? credible ones? whose work you can show us to back up these claims? who have evidence that supplement chemicals have a statistically significant effect on virus infection, transmission, and prognosis?

Undertoad 10-12-2020 03:01 PM

psst it's now widely believed in doctorin' communities that levels of Vitamin D have a tremendous effect on COVID

Ibby 10-12-2020 03:04 PM

phew, good thing nobody was saying "you don't need vitamins"

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 03:19 PM

Ibby I'm not going to post the sources I believe, as they will get laughed at by members here....if you have an interest do your research....

One of my great sources is Coast to Coast radio and the many "outside the mainstream thinkers" Noory has on.

As a matter of fact, here is tonight's guest on CtoC

First Half: Prof. Jay W. Richards, Ph.D., discusses questions about the unprecedented global COVID shutdown - what will be the total cost in dollars, lives, and livelihoods of this response from governments? And, how did science bureaucrats, relying on what he says is murky data and speculative computer models, gain the power to shut down the global economy?

You want more people...you can do your work as I've done mine.

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 03:26 PM

Well I woke up to this deficiency in 2006 from my sister who is now gone due to MS, but she reminded me how important D is and when I tested, talk about LOW.....

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 03:31 PM

I would not doubt for second if MOST of the dead were all Vit D deficient....the old folks home are full of propped up people waiting to go....

I spent time 4.5 months -- a nightmare -- due to a knee infection and I saw it all...very very very sad...Vit D pennies a day...

Undertoad 10-12-2020 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibby (Post 1060284)
phew, good thing nobody was saying "you don't need vitamins"

Well, the post I was responding to seemed to read highly skeptical that any credible expert would believe that supplements could be beneficial.

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibby (Post 1060282)
thousands of specialists on viruses that say dietary supplements can prevent them? credible ones? whose work you can show us to back up these claims? who have evidence that supplement chemicals have a statistically significant effect on virus infection, transmission, and prognosis?

Do your own research Ibby...there are many sides to the story and the NIH is one side who pushes pharma drugs...and vaccines.

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1060291)
Well, the post I was responding to seemed to read highly skeptical that any credible expert would believe that supplements could be beneficial.

I have NOT had a allergy issue, cold, flu, and never a vaccine in probably 40 yrs.....so vits and supps don't work, oh YES they do.

Flint 10-12-2020 03:37 PM

the OP we're replying to suggested that if you take vitamin c/d/zinc you won't need to worry about masks, distancing, hand washing, or vaccines, because you'll never, ever get a virus. are we reading the same thread? ?

Undertoad 10-12-2020 03:48 PM

i wasn't responding to that

Flint 10-12-2020 03:49 PM

k sorry bro

Clodfobble 10-12-2020 04:09 PM

Here's the thing, jamin: the things you're saying are not always insane. There are benefits to some of these things. As I mentioned elsewhere, my adolescent kids already take half the things you've been talking about here on a daily basis.

The problem is your attitude.

You are smug. You are righteous, and bitter, and come across as if you believe that everyone who isn't already on your train deserves whatever horrible fate they get. You aren't interested in helping people, you're interested in bragging about your own success. And that's why every conversation you participate in turns into an argument: you're behaving antisocially, and profoundly annoying the people who might otherwise support some of the things you're saying.

For a taste of the opposite side of the spectrum, consider Undertoad: he has made every attempt to be kind and forgiving of your foibles. And yet nearly everyone here has been around long enough to remember when his good friend was diagnosed with cancer. UT's friend rejected traditional cancer treatment and put their faith in supplements to save them--which they 100% didn't, the friend is dead--and UT was furious, and bewildered, and utterly crushed by his friend's choice not to take their situation seriously. Maybe he's shifted his opinion over the years, or maybe he's just a fundamentally good person who is trying to reach out to you instead of labeling you as irredeemable and abusing you until you go away.

But it would be a lot fucking easier to reach out to you if you weren't snidely slapping at every hand that came near you.

Undertoad 10-12-2020 04:59 PM

My friend didn't take supplements; she refused treatment, ate vegan, and lived in a "stress-free" way.

If she had encountered you lot, she would have logged off and not re-visited

and you would have said good riddance

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 1060305)
Here's the thing, jamin: the things you're saying are not always insane. There are benefits to some of these things. As I mentioned elsewhere, my adolescent kids already take half the things you've been talking about here on a daily basis.

The problem is your attitude.

You are smug. You are righteous, and bitter, and come across as if you believe that everyone who isn't already on your train deserves whatever horrible fate they get. You aren't interested in helping people, you're interested in bragging about your own success. And that's why every conversation you participate in turns into an argument: you're behaving antisocially, and profoundly annoying the people who might otherwise support some of the things you're saying.

For a taste of the opposite side of the spectrum, consider Undertoad: he has made every attempt to be kind and forgiving of your foibles. And yet nearly everyone here has been around long enough to remember when his good friend was diagnosed with cancer. UT's friend rejected traditional cancer treatment and put their faith in supplements to save them--which they 100% didn't, the friend is dead--and UT was furious, and bewildered, and utterly crushed by his friend's choice not to take their situation seriously. Maybe he's shifted his opinion over the years, or maybe he's just a fundamentally good person who is trying to reach out to you instead of labeling you as irredeemable and abusing you until you go away.

But it would be a lot fucking easier to reach out to you if you weren't snidely slapping at every hand that came near you.

I've been treated so SHITTY here what do expect from me, tell you all how much I love you. Smug, etc, yes I feel smug as I keep healthy and take care of myself...and have been for over 30 yrs....

No one here has welcomed me except the person who directed me here...come on....and I don't keep shouting Fing Fing Fing like MOST here do...so one has to be doing this language to be accepted?

And I'm not bitter, where the H does that come from. I have not even mentioned half of the protocols I have done in my life, like meditation to keep the mind free of stress and calm and I may have mentioned some self help info to others who are so Angry and keep hanging on to anger...but of course, got slapped down....

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1060306)
My friend didn't take supplements; she refused treatment, ate vegan, and lived in a "stress-free" way.

If she had encountered you lot, she would have logged off and not re-visited

and you would have said good riddance

You mention friend didn't take supps and refused treatment, I went back thru this thread and don't see you talking about a friend....

Clodfobble 10-12-2020 05:52 PM

I'd say it would depend entirely on her delivery. It's never been "what you say" but "how you say it," both here and in the world at large. At the time, most of us were supportive of her choice to face terminal illness on her own terms. And maybe that was because we never met her--maybe in real life she was being super sanctimonious about her newfound lifestyle, and your anger at her back then was completely understandable through that lens. All I was doing was recalling a time when you, too, got emotionally riled by someone touting natural remedies for cancer. We all go through periods where certain topics set us off, and a grating delivery just makes us all the more vulnerable.

jaminhealth 10-12-2020 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 1060315)
I'd say it would depend entirely on her delivery. It's never been "what you say" but "how you say it," both here and in the world at large. At the time, most of us were supportive of her choice to face terminal illness on her own terms. And maybe that was because we never met her--maybe in real life she was being super sanctimonious about her newfound lifestyle, and your anger at her back then was completely understandable through that lens. All I was doing was recalling a time when you, too, got emotionally riled by someone touting natural remedies for cancer. We all go through periods where certain topics set us off, and a grating delivery just makes us all the more vulnerable.

Oh again, please....should I expect a better delivery on F F F F ....Fing Fing Fing Fing.

I was raised in a home that my dad would not even say hell or dam and took me a lot years to express these two.

And then I meet this group!!!!!

Undertoad 10-12-2020 06:09 PM

C you said you were frustrated with the anti vax thread and so I stopped posting about the subject entirely

my anger with judi is over her choice and the outcome but i had no say in it, i could do nothing but appreciate her when she was alive

we are all in charge of our selves. our choices about how to manage our lives are ours alone

none of us would stand the implications otherwise, if we were mandated and controlled, and told what to do, we would all recognize that we would be mere slaves. and that is practically our definition of evil

when people tell me they have made a decision i feel is silly i can only smile and nod. i too have made many bad decisions and could not identify them at the time

my hope for the best for them is nothing but a mere prayer, it has no real power but it acknowledges i would like the best outcome, and for me that is humanity

Flint 10-12-2020 06:31 PM

I can't find any actual attribution to Keanu Reeves, but in a meme, a picture of his face said:
Quote:

I'm at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. Even if you tell me 1+1=5, you're absolutely correct, enjoy.
This reminded me of Undertoad.. I've noted and admired his continuous effort in this area, over a long period of time, and it's been inspirational to me on a personal level (and I probably never explicitly mentioned this due to being socially inept), but it's like a lot of things he's said that just stuck with me. And for posterity I'll mention the things that I quote most from UT in IRL-- 1) "you don't listen to the music you like, you like the music you listen to," and 2) "eating meat is what allowed humans enough calories to develop a big inefficient brain."

glatt 10-12-2020 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 1060322)
"you don't listen to the music you like, you like the music you listen to,"

I used this one yesterday in real life, and thought of UT as I did it.

Undertoad 10-12-2020 06:40 PM

thank you sirs

limey 10-13-2020 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaminhealth (Post 1060313)
I've been treated so SHITTY here what do expect from me, tell you all how much I love you. Smug, etc, yes I feel smug as I keep healthy and take care of myself...and have been for over 30 yrs....

No one here has welcomed me except the person who directed me here...come on....and I don't keep shouting Fing Fing Fing like MOST here do...so one has to be doing this language to be accepted?

And I'm not bitter, where the H does that come from. I have not even mentioned half of the protocols I have done in my life, like meditation to keep the mind free of stress and calm and I may have mentioned some self help info to others who are so Angry and keep hanging on to anger...but of course, got slapped down....


Jamin, your arrival in the Cellar is exactly like me marching into your home and switching the TV and radio to channels I like, throwing out your choice of newspapers and magazines and saying you must read mine, and throwing away all your food while explaining how bad it is for you and how you should eat exactly what I do, whilst criticising your choice of decor.
I think that you, in that circumstance, might also not be very welcoming.
The Cellar is the online home for a number of us. Yes, Iíll agree that we all have been taking it for granted and neglecting it, but that does not make it any less dear to us.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

fargon 10-13-2020 09:16 AM

What Limey said again.

keryx 10-13-2020 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fargon (Post 1060421)
What Limey said again.

Yes. But let me be more specific about what activities have caused the most irritation:

1. Giving a moments thought to any poster's sex/gender
2. Thinking that your age matters.
3. Necroing at last count 14 threads, some older than 10 years, not reading them for comprehension and getting the spirit/intent of them ALL WRONG.

This is my observation and others may have different ones.

On a personal note, I want to congratulate you on posting more in your short time here than I have in 15 years. My advice to you is to read more, post less.

lumberjim 10-13-2020 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 1060326)
I used this one yesterday in real life, and thought of UT as I did it.


I've had long discussions based on that premise with my Dad. (He likes bluegrass, the poor fool)



And also with Spencer..... who rebutts it with how varied his taste in music is. And then we spun off talking about normalizing pressure and how TV shows set your expectation for family life and fashion and everything. It got deep.

tw 10-13-2020 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaminhealth (Post 1060293)
I have NOT had a allergy issue, cold, flu, and never a vaccine in probably 40 yrs.....so vits and supps don't work, oh YES they do.

I never take supplements. And have same health. Last time I remember taking an antibiotic was in 1974(?). That proves what? That taking no supplements creates even better health.

Your logic is classic junk science. Makes a conclusion only from selected reasons. And ignores other facts that dispute it such as me. Classic example of cherry picking. An example of how myths and lies are created. And then imposed on others who are not 'officer material'.


You do not way why? Nothing in chemistry or other science justifies that conclusion from wild speculation. You have simply done what we were all taught in elementary school science. A conclusions only from observation is classic junk science reasoning.

Those are facts. You observations can only be called possible symptoms or speculation. Nothing more. Same symptoms also proved that blood-letting saved people's lives. Just another example of your reasoning.

We know that people who take too much Vitamin C can have genetic damage. Happens even when only takes 1500 mg daily. But then science says that by also saying why - with numbers.

"Oh yes they do" - proven by no facts and no numbers. Another example of why my father so enjoyed manipulating people using junk science reasoning. Since your same reasoning also proved smoking cigarettes increases health. Same reasoning that also proved Saddam had WMDs. Clearly demonstrated: junk science is alive and well.

tw 10-13-2020 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaminhealth (Post 1060313)
I've been treated so SHITTY here

When one attacks the person, that is unacceptable. Those mythical claims live a separate existence. When not supported by reasons why and with numbers, then claims deserve to be viciously attacked.

Attacking outright lies from junk science is never an attack on any person. But some people, for reasons that always escape me, somehow and foolishly attach themselves to that bogus claim. Every attack on those supplement claims are never an attack on you. And if you feel so, then you are the problem.

Posted was classic junk science. When another attacked you personally, he was repeatedly disparaged. Meanwhile, you have yet to post a single fact or number that says those supplement claims are credible. So those must be attacked viciously. Since such lies can cause others to die.

Why are facts ignored? 90% of contents of health food supplements were not what was listed on their label? Why do health food stored never need submit their products and claims to third party review or regulatory inspection? They are marketing to people most easily manipulated by lies. And that is legal. Those health conclusion are justified only by observation and wild speculation. Just like Saddam's WMDs.

So why do you ignore those facts? Where are any facts that dispute that well proven reality?

In Pakistan, he recorded a video where he told the children to stop moving and just lie on a sheet. One could watch the entire video where completely healthy kids were ordered to stop moving. He then labeled the video as children killed by polio vaccinations. Then people, who are not 'officer material', were rioting in streets three days later. Polio vaccinations were killing kids for the same reasons that supplements increase health.

The ignorant simply ignored that children were first told to stop moving. They worshipped the soundbyte conclusion. And then rioted. Same type reasoning also proves supplements work - when the stuff so often does not even have what is listed on its label.

Also in Pakistan, people now widely believe polio vaccinations are sterilizing kids. Another said polio vaccinations are poisoning people. Suddenly thousands of people were flooding each hospital daily claiming they or their kids had been poisoned. They knew they were dying. Claimed symptoms that proved so. Just like logic that proves supplements increase health.

Show me regulations that have inspected those supplements. And that proves it does those claims that you put forth. No such proof exists or will be posted. For the same reason you ignored what the Attorney General discovered. Junk science reasoning is called cherry picking. Scams are that easily promoted. And should be attacked viciously.

Those attacks on wacko extremist rhetoric never treated you shabbily. Others would be irresponsible for letting such junk science lies live unmolested. Unforunately you are not separating who you are from those claims that have no business surviving.

I expect to see you explain the "90% of health food supplements" were not what was on each bottle's label. Otherwise you must also attack those mythical supplement myths. You are expected to defend that other entity that is not you: claims about health food supplements. Instead you do even ignore that "90%" fact. That is irresponsible.

Do your own research. Well understood. Too much of any vitamin is toxic. Can result in organ failures such as kidney that must work overtime removing those toxic vitamin levels. Well proven by science. For same reasons, even too much liquorice might kill. "I feel it is true so it must be true" is classic junk science reasoning.

You health supplement claims cannot be treated shabbily enough. Because they were made without any valid reasoning. Were created only by emotions (as proven by supporting facts). And contradict well proven science.

BigV 10-13-2020 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 1060499)
When one attacks the person, that is unacceptable. Those mythical claims live a separate existence. When not supported by reasons why and with numbers, then claims deserve to be viciously attacked.

--snip--
You health supplement claims cannot be treated shabbily enough. --snip.

Shit just got real.

Griff 10-14-2020 06:16 AM

tw got this.

fargon 10-14-2020 06:19 AM

Yes he did.

DanaC 10-14-2020 07:09 AM

Word

jaminhealth 10-14-2020 12:57 PM

tw and all NAYSAYERS: Nonsense Nonsense Nonsense

Gravdigr 10-15-2020 02:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I bet she said that with her fingers in her ears. Shaking her head and running around the room.Attachment 71731

xoxoxoBruce 10-15-2020 02:34 PM

Her mind is made up, don't confuse her with facts.

tw 10-15-2020 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaminhealth (Post 1060634)
tw and all NAYSAYERS: Nonsense Nonsense Nonsense

And honest man says why. A child only denies. Please post always required facts and numbers that justify supplements.

You were openly challenged to explain what that Attorney General discovered on health food shelves. Silence only confirms that those health food claims are junk science. Not at all healthy. And marketed to consumers who are most easily scammed (are probably Trump supporters).

A credible recommendation explains why those bottles did not contain ingredients listed on labels. Silence is an admission that one was easily scammed.


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