Are you a good person or a bad person?

seakdivers • Jan 23, 2006 12:55 am
In your opinion, which are you? Good or Bad?
How do you think the people that "know" you would vote?
smoothmoniker • Jan 23, 2006 1:06 am
I'm good.

The people I know would say that I'm good.
Sun_Sparkz • Jan 23, 2006 1:18 am
I am good, i think everyone who knows me would say so too.. but everyone who REALLY knows me might hover over the "bad person" option before selecting the good after all.
marichiko • Jan 23, 2006 2:10 am
I muddle through as best I can. :angel:
Undertoad • Jan 23, 2006 2:24 am
I am chaotic good although sometimes chaotic neutral.

People who judge me generally find me lacking. Lacking what, they never say.
Griff • Jan 23, 2006 6:56 am
good and good
capnhowdy • Jan 23, 2006 7:39 am
I'm good. As far as the consensus view I guess it depends on who you ask.
fargon • Jan 23, 2006 7:55 am
I think I'm good, but my Wife says I'm a bad boy and need a spanking.
Trilby • Jan 23, 2006 8:31 am
I am a bad person. even I know it.
NotAnAngel • Jan 23, 2006 8:34 am
Would depend who you ask. I think Im basically good........ but do have the tendency to enjoy the extremes of being very very good and very very bad...
mrnoodle • Jan 23, 2006 10:26 am
sinner saved by grace ;)



generally good, but occasionally bad -- same as everyone, really
wolf • Jan 23, 2006 11:30 am
Good, but balanced. Not Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm good, you know?
Raederle • Jan 23, 2006 11:34 am
I think I'm only very slightly more good than bad. I think the consensus opinion of me would be 'good', though I haven't done any polling. Which might be interesting...
Beestie • Jan 23, 2006 1:29 pm
If someone is good at being bad, is that bad or good?
Elspode • Jan 23, 2006 1:44 pm
Ever since I read A Clockwork Orange, I have had a hell of a hard time determining absolute good from absolute bad. Judging by most sociologically acceptable criteria, I'm good. Judging by my wife's value set, I'm severely lacking, although not actually evil.

It is all relative.
barefoot serpent • Jan 23, 2006 1:46 pm
Beestie wrote:
If someone is good at being bad, is that bad or good?

yes.


Me: slothful, avaricious, covetous, gluttonous, envious, wrathful... etc, etc.
Spexxvet • Jan 23, 2006 5:25 pm
Elspode wrote:
Ever since I read A Clockwork Orange, I have had a hell of a hard time determining absolute good from absolute bad. Judging by most sociologically acceptable criteria, I'm good. Judging by my wife's value set, I'm severely lacking, although not actually evil.

It is all relative.

Horrorshow post, droog.

Good and Good, if they care.
keryx • Jan 23, 2006 7:00 pm
According to the on-line test "Are you evil?," I am. Most who have known me a long time would agree. First meeting me you would think I was good, or at worst, neutral. I describe myself as chaotic neutral with evil tendencies. I am usually benign and benevolent, just don't get me mad.
SteveDallas • Jan 23, 2006 7:19 pm
I'm good to the extent that I don't do anything evil and I don't intentionally do things that will annoy or hurt others.

Some people probably think I'm bad because I don't always do things they want me to do.
capnhowdy • Jan 23, 2006 8:04 pm
Horrorshow post, droog.


WTF?
xoxoxoBruce • Jan 23, 2006 8:40 pm
Undertoad wrote:
I am chaotic good although sometimes chaotic neutral.

People who judge me generally find me lacking. Lacking what, they never say.
Bags of gold. :lol:

See....I'm bad.
dov • Jan 24, 2006 12:52 am
If a man is in the forest, and his wife is not there, is he still bad/wrong?
Sundae • Jan 24, 2006 3:58 am
Bad, but kept in check by a good upbringing and a fear of authority. I pass as good in most circles.
footfootfoot • Jan 24, 2006 6:39 am
capnhowdy wrote:
WTF?

It's slang from the book "a clockwork orange"
Spexxvet • Jan 24, 2006 9:15 am
footfootfoot wrote:
It's slang from the book "a clockwork orange"

Bingo. Roughly, it means "good post, buddy".
capnhowdy • Jan 24, 2006 6:40 pm
Ok. It's been 35 years. :o
keryx • Jan 24, 2006 10:00 pm
dov wrote:
If a man is in the forest, and his wife is not there, is he still bad/wrong?


yes, of course! :lol:
itsjulie • Jan 24, 2006 10:35 pm
I am very good, mixed in with a little bad that happens to slip out once and a while! :D :rar:
lumberjim • Jan 25, 2006 2:55 am
i rock

....that is all
maffick • Jan 25, 2006 9:13 am
No, really, I am. :)
Radar • Jan 25, 2006 10:28 am
It depends on who you ask. I think everyone thinks they're a good person. I think Hitler thought he was a good person. I think the Bush supporters believe they are good people. I think Pat Robertson, Osama Bin Laden, Sam Alito, etc. believe they are good people.

I think I'm a good person, but even the best person makes mistakes. For instance, I slept with a married woman for 3 years and I knew her husband. I said, "Hey, I'm not cheating, she is" and tried to rationalize it, but I wouldn't want anyone to sleep with my wife so i was wrong.

I give to the poor, support several people financially, work hard, and try to make the world a better place for future generations by fighting against injustice where I can. I don't steal, rape, murder, or otherwise harm any non-consenting other, though I piss off quite a few.

In my book I'm a good person, but merely being an atheist makes me a bad person to some people.
footfootfoot • Jan 25, 2006 12:29 pm
Last week SWMBO said that I lack a conscience. I wasn't the least offended by that. I am not particularly immoral, I just don't really care what others think of me, for the most part.

A few nights ago she added that I am criminal. Not a criminal. Just criminal.

Also not really offended by that either, how could I be if I lacked conscience?

Does that make me good or bad?
marichiko • Jan 25, 2006 12:45 pm
Well, Radar's post actually got me to thinking (amazing on a number of levels, eh? :D ). Its true that just about everyone believes themselves to be a "good" person. I think the exception would be sociopaths, and they would consider the question irrelevent.

People with the best of intentions can do some pretty awful things through ignorance or denial or fear, and you don't have to be Hitler, either, to do them. When I look back on my life, I see some actions that were pretty misguided, although, at the time, I thought I was doing the right thing or at least was justified in my deeds.

If we label ourselves "good" or "bad" we are engaging in black and white thinking and indulging in a line of thought that can only contribute to an "us versus them" mentality. I'm "good" and they're "bad," so off to the ovens with THEM!

Human beings are complex critters and on a good day can be saints and on a bad day, the same person is one everyone would run from. Then you have to take the prevailing culture into consideration. Today, we would consider anyone who burned people at the stake "bad." 500 years ago, such acts were considered just and "good."

"Good" and "bad" are just not useful labels, all in all.
glatt • Jan 25, 2006 12:46 pm
footfootfoot wrote:
A few nights ago she added that I am criminal. Not a criminal. Just criminal.



Everyone is criminal.

For example, I jaywalk every day. I try hard not to risk my neck when doing it, or slow drivers down by getting in their way. I am a courteous jaywalker that way. But I certainly break the law frequently and intend to continue doing it.

I'm willing to bet everyone reading this does something like that too, whether they admit it or not.
wolf • Jan 25, 2006 1:49 pm
I speed regularly, and in my home county, with impunity.

Professional courtesy.
Sundae • Jan 27, 2006 6:47 am
footfootfoot, I'm lucky that I do worry what people think about me. Too much actually, but it seems to keep my immorality in check. Although it's more a case of not having morals rather than being bad I suppose. I have a conscience but am able to box it off until it's quiet sometimes.
tw • Jan 27, 2006 7:37 am
Radar wrote:
I think I'm a good person, but even the best person makes mistakes. For instance, I slept with a married woman for 3 years and I knew her husband. I said, "Hey, I'm not cheating, she is" and tried to rationalize it, but I wouldn't want anyone to sleep with my wife so i was wrong.
This could be an excellent example. Did you eventually get guilty about it? Or was that a revelation that occurred long after the affair was over?
Beestie • Jan 27, 2006 8:09 am
Everyone does bad things and everyone has a reason for doing bad things. I guess whether you are good or bad depends on how good your reason is.

This is a fascinating question. It just leads me to more questions.

If someone says they are good, is it because they really are good or because they always think bad collateral damage justifies the good end?

If someone never does anything bad but also chooses not to do good things when they could are they good or bad?

If someone does something bad to prevent someone else from doing something even badder is that good or bad?

If you do something and everyone thinks its good then go somewhere else and do the same thing and everyone thinks its bad what's the score - good 2, bad 0; a tie; or good 0, bad 2?

Seemed like a simple question at first....
xoxoxoBruce • Jan 27, 2006 10:42 pm
OK Beestie, think on this from Der Spiegel
It's been a bitter cold winter in Europe.
Right wing groups are handing out hot soup to the homeless and needy. Good?
It's pork soup that Jews and Muslims can't eat. Bad?
They're doing this to support ethnic purity of Europe. Bad?
French police have made them stop giving soup to anyone. Good?
Sure gets cloudy when you take intent into it. ;)
dov • Jan 27, 2006 11:47 pm
Fundamentally bad.
Crimson Ghost • Jan 27, 2006 11:51 pm
I would have to call myself - Evil.

I was born 6 AM, June 6.

I was born with a "birth caul".

My parents claimed that I never cried as a baby.

As the priest was trying to baptize me, he had a massive stroke and died on the spot.
As I was told later, that was the first time they heard me laugh.

The folks wanted me to go to a Catholic school.
I was the only kid the Mother Superior called "a fucking cunt-rag".

A "job placement" test resulted in informing me that the 3 jobs I am best suited for are -
1) Mortuary Sciences, 2) Slaughterhouse Worker, or 3) Armed Forces.

I laugh at funerals.

I think horror films are great warm-ups for sex.

I giggle at car accidents.

After watching "The Passion of the Christ", I fucked my wife for an hour and a half.

Animals freak out when I get near them.

------------------------------------

But, on the other hand, I'm house-broken.
dov • Jan 28, 2006 12:01 am
xoxoxoBruce wrote:
It's pork soup that Jews and Muslims can't eat. Bad?
It is a bigger sin for an observant Jew to starve himself to death than to eat non-kosher food.

Since Islam follows the same dietary laws as the Jews, I would think this principle of life is the apex of their commandments as well.

However, if a Jew is being forced to bow before an idol, it is his responsibility to kill himself, if possible, so as not to do that act.
Happy Monkey • Jan 28, 2006 1:08 am
Crimson Ghost wrote:
I would have to call myself - Evil.
...
Is your name Chuck Norris or Vin Diesel, by any chance?
marichiko • Jan 28, 2006 1:55 am
dov wrote:


However, if a Jew is being forced to bow before an idol, it is his responsibility to kill himself, if possible, so as not to do that act.


Hmmm... So do you think this requirement is a good thing? I can understand it being labeled a "bad" action if someone bows before something that is spiritually wrong for them of their own free will. But if someone has a gun pointed to their head? So someone points a gun to my head and requires me to bow before a statue of Satan and I do it, while inwardly saying, "In your dreams, Satan, and you and I both know it!" Then I escape and live to do nothing but good deed for the rest of my life and worship whatever is the true right Being to worship. Would Jewish doctine still label me as "bad"?

What if I had the gun pointed to my head and I bowed to the idol which resulted in the deaths of a million people? Would I be more or less bad than in the first instance?

What if by bowing with the gun pointed at my head, I could SAVE the lives of a million people? Would Jewish doctrine require me to refuse and save my soul, if not my life, at the expense of a million other lives?

PS How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
dov • Jan 28, 2006 5:21 am
marichiko wrote:
PS How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Under your circumstances, I would not think twice. In many areas of my life, I am a hypocrite. I crave ideals and rarely live up to them. I have more than one higher power, and the God of Abraham is one of them, they are all interconnected anyways, there is only one ONE. I bow to the almighty buck daily, it is an idol. I look in the mirror and see the centre of the universe, it is an idol. I have loved many women, and needed a couple, they were idols. Madison avenue are pros at idol making and I buy into a few, more than a few.

If I was ever in a position, where it was perfectly clear that it is a formal idol, a power that completely contradicts all my ideals, which I adhere to, and I know without a doubt the God of Abraham is with me, and some creature was aware of this, and in spite of this, my relationship with God, it attempts to make me spit in the face of God, I have the faith, not the intellect, to know, taking the bullet is my only choice. It is impossible to justify or explain, it would be beyond reason. Jews have something called a Nashama, a Jewish Soul. I could meet a stranger, and in no way know his or her religion, if he or she was Jewish or not, our Nashamas dance if he or she were Jewish. There is a connection and we both know. Similarly under the conditions you presented, it would not be up to me, it would be my Nashamas

Your discourse is interesting. Got silly around saving my life saves a million, or causes the death of a million people. Far Fetched. I chose to put aside those examples in my reply to you. I don’t know what to call them, drug induced fairy tales? (No offence meant). Tell me how in the world the death of one man could be responsible for the lives or deaths of a million people. Maybe JFK, Bobby, Martine Luther King or Malcolm X. I would say hypothetically if these men lived, millions of lives would have been saved as the direct result of their living.

Technically, there are no exceptions to the responsibility of a Jew being forced to bow to an idol.

I am not speaking for other Jews, just myself.
Crimson Ghost • Jan 30, 2006 2:45 am
Happy Monkey wrote:
Is your name Chuck Norris or Vin Diesel, by any chance?

Nope.

Good guess, however.
djacq75 • Feb 9, 2006 8:43 pm
Here's the everlasting rub
Neither am I good nor bad
I'd give up my halo for a horn,
And the horn for the hat I once had.

Jethro Tull, A Passion Play
capnhowdy • Feb 9, 2006 10:39 pm
Hmmmm... Tull....

Wasn't he that diver from the 70's?
xoxoxoBruce • Feb 10, 2006 2:22 am
Tull? Diver? No, that was Dio. ;)
wolf • Feb 10, 2006 2:33 am
I think that was that Van guy. Van Halen or somebody.
Crimson Ghost • Feb 10, 2006 5:07 am
You mean Van Hagar?
Or Sammy Halen?
capnhowdy • Feb 10, 2006 8:52 am
They prolly all were equipped with an aqualung. Unless one was so holy he didn't need it. ;)
djacq75 • Feb 10, 2006 3:52 pm
They were all holy muff divers.
Granola Goddess • Feb 10, 2006 4:29 pm
:band: "Only The Good Die Young!"

Guess I'm on my way out....
Kozmique • Feb 19, 2006 6:26 am
People who don't know me think I'm good. People who know me somewhat think I'm bad. People who know me very well think I'm probably good. I think I am essentially good but confused and prone to bad behavior in certain situations.
lilMarduk • Feb 20, 2006 3:01 pm
Bad. I'm a horrible person and I know it.
kgg • Feb 21, 2006 7:33 pm
Both. Depends on the situation whether bad means "BAD" or a very sultry bad.
Stress Puppy • Feb 23, 2006 4:27 pm
I fit my criteria for a good person. That is, I help my friends even if it means sacrificing something on my end. I do what I can to help everyone's life a little better.

I think those who know me very well would agree with me.
skysidhe • May 15, 2006 11:34 pm
I am good but if I had the time and money to spend on being bad I might be bad on occassion if the temptation arose.

To some this maybe bad but self awareness is good. I know the bad things I want.
Ibby • May 16, 2006 1:07 am
I try to be good when it counts, but I'm an asshole most of the time. When it matters, I do my best to be good. When I can be a jerk and get away with it (as in, with my friends, mostly), I do it cause it's fun.
NoBoxes • May 16, 2006 2:52 am
I break people's character down into at least 3 categories:

Bad people often do what's wrong just for their own gratification. I have no use for bad people in any capacity.

Good people usually do what's right; but, often, only because they have to. I will work for good people and let good people work for me. Good people make the world go 'round.

Honorable people usually do what's right (no one's perfect) just for the sake of doing what's right, not because they have to. I will follow the leadership of honorable people and work for them as a subordinate leader. If good people make the world go 'round, honorable people set the pace.

This thread's original question doesn't offer me an option that I'm willing to be content with.
DiscoFever • May 16, 2006 7:10 am
Butter wouldn't melt in my mouth:p
rkzenrage • May 16, 2006 9:24 am
I believe all people are good in nature.
mrnoodle • May 16, 2006 1:37 pm
I don't.
wolf • May 16, 2006 1:42 pm
rkzenrage wrote:
I believe all people are good in nature.


I know they are not. Your event set is too small.
capnhowdy • May 16, 2006 5:52 pm
cool pics, mrnoodle. The bottom one is very interesting.
rkzenrage • May 16, 2006 6:00 pm
wolf wrote:
I know they are not. Your event set is too small.

I feel that your event set is too small, though, unlike you, I do not presume so much to act like I know. You know nothing of what I have been through or have learned.
Hubris is an unattractive trait.
Clodfobble • May 16, 2006 6:09 pm
rkzenrage wrote:
I feel that your event set is too small, though, unlike you, I do not presume so much to act like I know. You know nothing of what I have been through or have learned.


Technically, her event set cannot possibly be too small. Since you are claiming that all people are good in nature, you should ideally have all people in your set, though most would let you get away with a representative sample; whereas wolf need only have one single person in her set who is not good in nature to prove your set incomplete.
mrnoodle • May 16, 2006 6:52 pm
Those pics came from a holocaust site I came across while googling (don't recall the name). The top one is of a group of women -- some with infants -- who have been stripped and are being led to their execution site. The bottom pic is of a group of men waiting to be gassed. There are some emotions that an actor just can't portray -- look at their eyes.
skysidhe • May 16, 2006 7:12 pm
rkzenrage wrote:
I believe all people are good in nature.




If rk would have said. 'I believe all people are good' ( period ) then maybe I would care to ask what the heck 'event set' means but since people obviously missed the word ' nature' and the phrase 'in nature' modifys the word 'good' I could presume to think he meant people at their core and before any acquired behavior. I think so. I could be wrong. I am not very smart.


Even people that slag off other people he thinks are good at their core.

I don't.
skysidhe • May 16, 2006 7:16 pm
mrnoodle wrote:
Those pics came from a holocaust site I came across while googling (don't recall the name). The top one is of a group of women -- some with infants -- who have been stripped and are being led to their execution site. The bottom pic is of a group of men waiting to be gassed. There are some emotions that an actor just can't portray -- look at their eyes.

anyway....
Those are some sad photos mr noodle. What I was really going to say in a smart alec way was, only whiteys are ever really bad in the scope of history it seems. :rolleyes:


[I guess I should edit it to include the word 'us' whiteys' ]
xoxoxoBruce • May 16, 2006 7:39 pm
skysidhe wrote:
snip~ I could presume to think he meant people at their core and before any acquired behavior.
That would be babies and toddlers which is the most selfish, self-centered, group I can think of. ;)
capnhowdy • May 16, 2006 7:43 pm
Once the spirit is broken color/race no longer exsist. These pics wouldn't have been near as impactive to me had they been in color. Sad? Yes. Real? Even more so.
Happy Monkey • May 16, 2006 7:47 pm
skysidhe wrote:
anyway....
Those are some sad photos mr noodle. What I was really going to say in a smart alec way was, only whiteys are ever really bad in the scope of history it seems.
Take a look at Darfur. It's just as bad there as it has been anywhere.

What whites really perfected was worldwide conquest, so we could do this crap everywhere, instead of just within our borders or with our immediate neighbors.
Tonchi • May 16, 2006 9:25 pm
skysidhe wrote:
anyway....
Those are some sad photos mr noodle. What I was really going to say in a smart alec way was, only whiteys are ever really bad in the scope of history it seems. :rolleyes:

Ummm, you seem to have overlooked all the African dictators since Idi Amin, which could easily account for another 3-6 million souls, and also the Japanese atrocities since 1900 (how about what they did in Shanghai and Manila) and then top off with the Maoist purges in China and Pol Pot in Cambodia and Laos. I believe that barring little details like our atomic arsenal, the tally is probably higher for murders at the hands of non-whites in this century. Give them the bomb and we will never catch up, darn it :neutral:
skysidhe • May 16, 2006 9:57 pm
* duly noted Tonchi and Happy Monkey*

I should have used the 'yeah right' emoticon. I thought calling myself a whitey would have given it away. * sigh * I guess I don't have any street talk. It would have made it more sarcastic. Don't mind me. I'm probably like Napoleon Dynamite :) ( although I've never actually seen Napoleon Dynamite . I can imagine it )



xoxoxoBruce wrote:
That would be babies and toddlers which is the most selfish, self-centered, group I can think of. ;)


@ Bruce, ha! That is exactly the age I was thinking. :apickle:
Ibby • May 17, 2006 12:45 am
Tonchi wrote:
Give them the bomb and we will never catch up, darn it


"give them the bomb"? They HAVE the bomb. Pakistan and India aren't white, and China definitely has the bomb too, who you specifically mentioned. North Korea may have the bomb soon, if they don't already. Its definitely not just us honkies who have the bomb.
Tonchi • May 17, 2006 1:10 am
At last count, nobody in the list of examples I gave has any semblance of wmd except China. Uganda, Ruwanda, Congo, Sudan, and Somalia do just fine with drug-crazed children carrying rusty machetes or tribal militias. North Korea did not go into my equations because We wiped out just as many of them as they did their breatheren in South Korea. Pakistan may have the bomb, but so far they have contented themselves with killing Indians/Hindus on a relatively small scale. And my point is that all these non-whites have very industriously been wiping out huge numbers of their own kind without benefit of "the bomb". If you want to get technical, blacks slaughtered twice as many other blacks in Ruwanda over a month or so than died in the bombing of Hiroshima. Hate does not require that much science.
Ibby • May 17, 2006 1:25 am
I get what you're saying, you just weren't clear before when you said "Give them the bomb and we will never catch up, darn it", because you were talking about non-white people killing lots of people, and therefore I assumed you were talking about non-white people when you said "them". So I replied with examples of non-white people who have nukes.
Tonchi • May 17, 2006 1:36 am
....it was sarcasm ;) Like we are in a race for the highest total or something....?
Ibby • May 17, 2006 1:50 am
I know it was sarcasm, you missed my point, I was just saying that white folk ain't the only people with nukes.
rkzenrage • May 17, 2006 12:27 pm
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
That would be babies and toddlers which is the most selfish, self-centered, group I can think of.

That is why my two-year-old piles his favorite toys on top of me saying he is giving them to me to try to get the pain to stop when I am having a bad pain day/event? Why, when he gets his favorite foods/toys he always tries to share them without being prompted... he just enjoys sharing, it simply brings him joy.

My belief system is such that I, and the Path is, believe that all nature is benevolent in nature.
All pain is from unbalance, confusion and grasping.
All those who cause pain to others are confused, in pain themselves and know no other way to express it but to share that pain.
It is far more complicated than that, but in this form (posting) it will have to do
Originally Posted by skysidhe
snip~ I could presume to think he meant people at their core and before any acquired behavior.

That is what I meant. Thank you.
Though, again, a bit more complicated. It does take some personal discipline to get in touch with stated nature and more to accept it. Though there are exceptions where some are just in touch without the work... I envy them.
wolf • May 18, 2006 2:40 am
rkzenrage wrote:
I feel that your event set is too small, though, unlike you, I do not presume so much to act like I know. You know nothing of what I have been through or have learned.
Hubris is an unattractive trait.


Spend an hour talking to a multiple offense child rapist and then get back to me.
wolf • May 18, 2006 2:43 am
rkzenrage wrote:
That is why my two-year-old piles his favorite toys on top of me saying he is giving them to me to try to get the pain to stop when I am having a bad pain day/event? Why, when he gets his favorite foods/toys he always tries to share them without being prompted... he just enjoys sharing, it simply brings him joy.


Sharing is a learned behavior.
Ibby • May 18, 2006 4:56 am
I don't think all people are inherently bad... I think all people are inherently stupid. Homo Sapiens is a herd species.
Trilby • May 18, 2006 7:40 am
Some people are simply bad. If you don't think so it's only 'coz you haven't met them yet.
rkzenrage • May 19, 2006 7:29 am
wolf wrote:
Spend an hour talking to a multiple offense child rapist and then get back to me.

Like I said you know nothing about me.
My wife was raped by her father from two to fifteen. He did the same to her sister... I stand by my statement.
My wife has the same conviction.

He is not the worst person I have met or spent time with. Speak of what you know.

BTW, I don't believe in evil.
wolf wrote:
Sharing is a learned behavior.

The desire to do it is not.
Flint • May 19, 2006 9:13 am
Naturally-selected altruistic behavior is a valid benefit to the collective gene pool.
skysidhe • May 19, 2006 9:26 am
wolf wrote:
Spend an hour talking to a multiple offense child rapist and then get back to me.



That's that old 'nature' or 'nurture' question isn't it?