God Spare New Orleans
902 mb. 175mph sustained winds with higher gusts. I cannot even fathom what is going to happen if Katrina holds. The city of New Orleans will not exist as any of us know it now come Tuesday morning.
<a href="http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/iwszone?Sites=:laz062">Holy shit</a>.
We're about to witness one of the worst natural disasters to befall the United States.
I'm feelin' ya. I know it. I am pretty upset because NO is the coolest place on the planet and has the nicest damn people. I. Am. Bummin'.
Plus, all those barely-at-rest 'Nawlins ghosts are going to be re-animated.
Whole thing is a spooky bummer.
I love New Orleans. I've only been there once, but the historic parts of the town were amazing. I'm so depressed that we're going to lose so much.
My friends that live out there got out this morning. They had enough time to pack up most of the important stuff and left town. I was really saddened to hear that they recently moved to a first story apartment in the historic district, but at this point I don't think any structure is going to do so well.
I think it is time for a drink.
From the National Weather Service Bulletin:
DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED
HURRICANE KATRINA
A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED
STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.
MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.
THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.
HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.
AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.
POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE KILLED.
Flying household appliances? Incredible human suffering? My God, I really hope this forecast is wrong! If there is anybody who lives in that area and doesn't have friends or family in a safe zone, you're welcome to head up north to Colorado. I've got a spare bedroom. Seriously. PM me. If you have nowhere to go that's safe. :mg:
Fathom is an awfully appropriate term. 20' to 30' storm surge, and New Orleans is 30' below sea level on a dry day. This surge looks like it's heading straight for the sea mouth to Lake Ponchatrain.
I heard but cannot find the descriptions* of the damage of a storm of this magnitude. I remember phrases like 50% of all wooden structures will be destroyed. All windows will be broken out. Flying debris including household appliances and light vehicles. Tall buildings will sway dangersously.
This is going to make the loss of life and property of the events of September 11, 2001 seem like a fart in church. 4.5 million people live in New Orleans. The diameter of the hurricane force winds is over 200 miles. A swath of destruction hundreds of miles wide.
Goodbye, New Orleans.
edit: * this is the description that terrified me. thanks for finding it Mari. I don't remember seeing your adjancent post when I made my remarks. I wasn't really at my best though.
Google 'Hurricane Camille' and you can see some awesome pics of what that one did. Unreal.
I fear we are about to witness the most devastating destructive event in the modern history of the USA.
Get out your checkbooks, folks. There is going to be a need for a lot of charity. Furthermore, I believe this event will certainly push the price of gasoline above $3.00 per gallon, and maybe above $5.00.
I don't think we can even imagine how bad this is going to be if it bullseyes Ponchartrain. Absolute worst case scenario.
Well my ass ain't on the line like the folks in SO. La. I lived So. of NO before Betsy and lost all but my car. Anyway I live a little S.E. of the MS on this map, so I guess my new roof will get a test. Took a ride to store while ago, no "D" batteries in town and by tomorrow will be no gas.
National Geographics did an article on New Orleans water/hurricane problem a while ago. I made a mental note that we should get down there before the inevitable... This is going to be awful. Our prayers are with you folks, please don't stay.
Seems like she took a more easterly approach than they were expecting -- this seems like good news. NO will get the west side of the storm, with less severe winds. The pic is from the APotD.
I have a friend in the Florida Panhandle. She has a lot of friends in New Orleans, who had already gotten out before the mandatory evacuation was announced. She has had to ride out several of the storms that hit the panhandle because she's a cop and has to go into work rather than flee.
Times like this I really like Pennsylvania.
Seems like she took a more easterly approach than they were expecting -- this seems like good news. NO will get the west side of the storm, with less severe winds. The pic is from the APotD.
That is good news. Unfortunately, that means there'll be southerly winds blowing across Lake Ponchatrain, north of and towards New Orleans. 100+ mph winds. A lot of lake is going to wind up in the French Quarter...
And it looks like a Cat3 instead of a Cat5, also good.
What were they thinking putting folks in the Superdome?
And it looks like a Cat3 instead of a Cat5, also good.
Except that it won't be able to do 100 megabit ethernet, only 10.
What were they thinking putting folks in the Superdome?
Lots of extra concession sales? Impromptu pickup football games? Bored refugees might be willing to spruce things up a bit?
The possibilities are endless, really.
Except that it won't be able to do 100 megabit ethernet, only 10.
Nerd :biggrin:
Except that it won't be able to do 100 megabit ethernet, only 10.
:lol2:
What were they thinking putting folks in the Superdome?
Apparently it's the only building in town that was designed to resist hurricane force winds and rains.
Of course, said design was done by the lowest bidder.
A couple of pics...
I fully expect financial and material support from the international community. Perhaps U2 will perform.
France is sending 50 truffle-sniffing pigs, Great Britian has 100,000 MRE's containing jellied eels and cold potatoes ready to go, Banglasdesh is sending their most experienced swimming instructors, and Thailand will be contributing hints on how to survive intensely bad smells for an extended period of time.
The Superdome roof is a PVC heat-welded membrane, probably secured by a combination of adhesive and mechanical terminations. It is essentially a giant PVC tarp, and it is likely that the material to which that tarp was fastened is what failed, ripped up by the rather elastic and airtight material which was attached to the substrates. Low bidder's got nothing to do with it. *Any* roof will fail in these extreme conditions, no matter how well designed and applied. Even roofs which are designed to withstand hurricanes do not retain their waterproofing characteristics...they just don't rip the entire support structure out when they fail.
Let's all hope busterb's reading this thread from somewhere OUTSIDE the white area. Looks like his house will get a close up view of the eye wall of the hurricane.
Didn't he say his house was to the SE of the MS on the map? Yikes!
A couple of pics...
Hope there was nobody in this pickup truck with its headlights on. Maybe the lights came on from the impact. I hope...
What were they thinking putting folks in the Superdome?
How el ;) se would they hold it up?
Let's all hope busterb's reading this thread from somewhere OUTSIDE the white area. Looks like his house will get a close up view of the eye wall of the hurricane.
Didn't he say his house was to the SE of the MS on the map? Yikes!
He told me last night his new roof was going to be tested and his garden blown away. :(
Well, it looks like a near hit on New Orleans from a category 3 instead of direct hit by a category 5. The question now is who takes the credit for their last minute reprieve, the Christians or the Voodoo priestesses?
Hope there was nobody in this pickup truck with its headlights on. Maybe the lights came on from the impact. I hope...
I had the same thought. It's bad enough to see the cars, but the cars with the possibility of occupancy is a shame. At least it wasn't a ragtop.
The question now is who takes the credit for their last minute reprieve, the Christians or the Voodoo priestesses?
It was the Vodou. They had a chat with Katrina.
Well, it looks like a near hit on New Orleans from a category 3 instead of direct hit by a category 5. The question now is who takes the credit for their last minute reprieve, the Christians or the Voodoo priestesses?
I think that by the end of this week we'll find that the difference between Katrina being a catagory three and a catagory five is more going to matter to the people who had to deal with it inland.
For New Orleans, I suspect, it didn't matter much. The flooding they're seeing this morning is horrific.
I've never been through anything like this, before. I've never lost everything I had, never had to deal with an insurance company in the face of disaster. I know a couple who were due to be married in December and live(d) on a first floor apartment in one of the historic areas of New Orleans. They managed to evacuate, but I've not heard from them since and I'm sure they don't know what has happened to their apartment, yet, anyways.
Outside of offering a place to stay until they are able to get back on their feet, again, is there anything that anyone can think of that would be a good thing to do for them? If you were displaced and didn't know when you'd be home, what would make your time away easier?
...and in the unfortunate event that everything is lost (which seems highly likely at this point), what could I do to help them out? I know they had insurance and all, but I'm curious as to what they might expect and what I could do to assist them.
The hard part at this point is going to be finding them.
Hopefully they did have insurance, especially insurance that covers major acts of God, like a hurricane. Some standard policies in hurricane areas do not, but I'm assuming you know that already.
Despite being an expert in Disaster Mental Health (which involves being there, listening, and handing out water and socks at times), I don't actually know the answer to your question.
Send them a small teddy bear (or something that would be in character for you, perhaps a fox), and a "What can I do to help?" note. And maybe a case of MREs and bottled water ... that's likely what they need right now.
When a coworker's apartment building burned down and he lost absolutely everything, the things he appreciated most in the following days were basic necessities--clothes, pillows, and toiletries, stuff like that. You can eat out for awhile until you get new pots and pans, but if you don't have a shower curtain things are really going to suck.
It was the Vodou. They had a chat with Katrina.
No, God.
/less filling!
//tastes great!
///reading too much fark
When shit like this befalls us, it doesn't matter what name we tack onto it...we're all talkin' to the same thing.
Kit, if you can contact them, just tell them to ask for whatever they need, and if you can get it/do it, you will.
Let us know if they need some sponsorship. I'd be happy to kick in a few bucks to some personal assistance effort.
The flooding they're seeing this morning is horrific.
This picture just hints at the flooding going on. These are houses.
They said yesterday evening that the worst case scenario did not occur. I have since heard that opinion recanted. This may not be the *absolute* worst case, but it is very, very close.
I'm currently at my parents house in Southwest Indiana, Evansville to be precise, and we had Katrina effects today - lots of wind and rain. Lots of flooding around here, but it's really nothing compared to what happened down south.
I hope that all is well with Cellarites down in those areas affected... please check in soon.
No, God.
The vodoun believe in God also.
He just gets different kinds of helpers.
I spent some of the early part of tonight looking through some news sites checking out pictures and videos.
Some of the most incredible were of houses, businesses, and the yacht club on fire. Fire apparatus can't get to any of these places with the flooding, so they are just left to burn.
I can't find the picture anymore, because I guess the TV station redid their slide shows, but I saw one that was particularly interesting ... a pawn shop that was apparently on high ground that missed getting flooded was on fire. I found myself wondering if the owner had been counting on the floods to take care of some of his financial problems and when he remained dry, arranged for a little accident.
Anybody hear from Buster B yet?
Gulf Coasters aren't the only ones getting beaten up. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/08/31/taiwan.typhoon.reut/index.html">Taipei is getting their third typhoon this year</a>, also a strong catagory four.
One quote from a Taiwainese fisherman is a little amusing.
"We need to secure all the boats or our boss will get mad."
This guy doesn't seem to get the big picture.
You don't know his boss...
:vader1:
Here are some
aerial shots of the flood damage.
Slide two is an amazing shot.
Well, with the failure of the Ponchatrain canal levees, the worst case scenario has come to be. I heard this morning that they fully expect the flooding of the New Orleands basin to cease only when the water level reaches equilibrium with the level of the lake.
Even in the aerial shots I saw last night, slicks of gasoline, oil and chemicals are evident in almost every view as submerged gas tanks and vehicles lose their contents. As the water rises higher, more and more petroleum-based and other industrial contaminants will enter the festering mix, joining rotting bodies, animal carcasses and vegetable matter.
New Orleans may be a dead loss. As it is, the number of businesses unable to function and the number of people who have lost everything, jobs included, will be unprecedented in our history. Who is going to house and care for these people? Who will pay their outstanding credit card debt (now that they can't file bankruptcy to clear those accounts)?
You know the one thing I didn't see in all of the approximately 30 solid minutes of different videos and stills I looked at last night? A military presence that was more than the merest token.
Where's our military in all of this? Surely, this disaster calls for a strong military response, with all of their hardware, expertise and organization.
hey lj, check out slide #29.
Slide two is an amazing shot.
and #25
Els:
You know the one thing I didn't see in all of the approximately 30 solid minutes of different videos and stills I looked at last night? A military presence that was more than the merest token.
Where's our military in all of this? Surely, this disaster calls for a strong military response, with all of their hardware, expertise and organization.
4 navy amphibious ships are en route from Norfolk now. I agree with your point. Also, hasn't this historically been a job where the National Guard steps in first? Same problem, different symptom.
It is about time. It is going to take a lot of serious effort to clear out the rest of New Orleans.
If ever there was a good reason for a Federal Government, this is it.
The flood shots bigw00dy posted are awesome in the old sense of the word. And while I feel really badly for the NO residents, I couldn't help thinking with every slide, "It's gonna cost a fortune to repair this".
It wouldn't surprise me if one or more insurance company goes out of business over this. And with the current economy already limping and bleeding, I think that Katrina is going to cause a serious nosedive in our recovery.
Has anyone heard about the countries that are offering their assitance?
I don't think real insurance companies do much flood insurance, do they? Uncle Sam is gonna be on the hook for this one...
Uncle Sam is gonna be on the hook for this one...
You misspelled 'taxpayers'. :(
Has anyone heard about the countries that are offering their assitance?
I haven't heard anything this time around, but it is pointless for them to do so, anyways. Each time a country offers assistance to the US, it is turned away unless it is a very specialized team of people that perform a needed, critical function (collapsed building techs from Canada, etc) or specialized equipment the US does not have (remote controlled, people-seeking robots for finding people in rubble, etc).
And while it would be a nice gesture, offering financial aid to the wealthiest nation on the planet during a crisis it can clearly handle (or it thinks it can) is pointless.
Where's our military in all of this? Surely, this disaster calls for a strong military response, with all of their hardware, expertise and organization.
With the New Orleans flood prevention and disaster preparation money, in Iraq.
sorry its spelled Griff...
TS and Lady Sidhe live an hour and change NW of New Orleans...hopefully, they and their daughter are doing okay.
i was just nw of there yesterday, abbeville - just south of lafayette and you couldn't even tell that there was a hurricane. they got the dry side. we really need to worry about busterb. if he didn't leave then.....
Sounds like Houston will be taking lots of refugees.
A little message to wish courage to people of New Orleans and south of USA in order to face this disaster... :heart-on:
Bye
I was woundering about BusterB today !!??!!
I hope he's ok !!
What am I saying ,, he's to damn onrie to let a little thing like a big wind ruffle his feathers !!!!!!
Where's our military in all of this? Surely, this disaster calls for a strong military response, with all of their hardware, expertise and organization.
With the New Orleans flood prevention and disaster preparation money, in Iraq.
I find it's a pity/shame that people have no other efficient federal solution/organisation than military one's.
The 14th of July at the French military parade, our Defense minister was only justifying our army by is ability to help people during natural disasters. She "forgot" mines thrower trucks that were shown for the first time on the Champs Elysées and all kinds of offensive weapons that require most of the money.
Hoping it won't get people used to see the militaries in their streets. :mad:
I was thinking along the lines of hovercraft, amphibious vehicles, helicopters, fast patrol boats, big trucks, stuff like that...and the people who are trained to work in harsh conditions while maintaining discipline. Chaos we've got plenty of. There'll be lots of time to plan the next Mardi Gras after we get people out of the festering choleric cesspool and into some clean clothes and a hot meal.
I find it's a pity/shame that people have no other efficient federal solution/organisation than military one's.
Not so much the Army, etc, as the National Guard. Since the US isn't under the threat of actual invasion, national emergencies really are what the National Guard is for.
I find it's a pity/shame that people have no other efficient federal solution/organisation than military one's.
It is rare - mostly unheard of - for the miltary to be involved in national disasters. When disasters are extreme, the state's governor can call out the state militia - also called the National Guard.
In this case, the number of people who did not leave are so numerous that even active military response is required.
Even when racists had less than 100 Federal Marshalls pinned down with little ammunition and under heavy arms attack, President Kennedy still stalled at sending Federal Troops to their rescue. When he finally did order it, Gen Abrams took almost a full day to resuce those Federal Marshalls. Use of Federal troops for anything inside the US was generally frowned upon. The change was recently created by this president with something called Northern Command.
I've been reading nola.com...it's all just...awful.
With so much need and so few resources, the weakest and frailest were bound to suffer the most. Seated next to her husband's body on the neutral ground beneath the St. Joseph Street sign, Allie Harris munched on crackers, seemingly unaware of all the tragedy unfolding around her. Eventually, guardsmen loaded her into a truck and hauled her off with other elderly evacuees.
Mr. Harris' body was left behind.
Such a breakdown did not bode well for other evacuees. As the afternoon wore on, hope faded, replaced by anger.
"This is 2005," John Murray shouted, standing in the street near Mr. Harris' body. "It should not be like this for no catastrophe. This is pathetic."
Indeed.
Can someone explain to me why in the hell people would be shooting at the rescue crews and fire departments? What is going through these people's minds?
Because they are seriously disturbed individuals, taking full advantage of the anarchy which has developed. The only reason these people don't do this every day is because the cops are able to suppress them. Otherwise, they'd be running around the streets with stolen Wal Mart guns shooting people for amusement.
It is sad, but I'm pretty sure that The Powers That Be are going to have to kill a few looters and rogues before things calm down.
It is sometimes helpful to real anarchists to see what real anarchy looks like.
I for one am never impressed by it.
these fools WILL learn that they are NOT the big boys on the block when they start getting shot at with .50 cals
Of course, the looting is being lead by the NO Police...
the words i have for those people, well, i'm just not going to say it here. i might actually offend people here that i care about.
here's a
news article on it.
Some people around here find it odd that I include "ammunition" on my hurricane supplies checklist. I'm sad, however, because I was starting to think that item on my list no longer served much of a purpose and that we'd never seen the violent outbreaks like we saw with hurricane Andrew. What is happening in New Orleans is really eye opening.
Does anyone think New Orleans is a special case? We did not see this level of violence and anarchy during the 2004 hurricane season in Florida.
no we didn't. the idiots in N.O. that are shooting are a bunch of uneducated stupid fucking neanderthals that don't even deserve to be with my ex wife.
edit: just to clarify, the shooters, looters, and no good doers.
hey lj, check out slide #29.
So, LJ, is that thing true about "never buy a car within 8 months after major flooding?"
Els:
4 navy amphibious ships are en route from Norfolk now. I agree with your point. Also, hasn't this historically been a job where the National Guard steps in first? Same problem, different symptom.
[speaking for]The Guard's a bit busy right now fighting an unjust war in Iraq ... See, the disaster is all Bush's fault. First, for causing global warming and making there be more hurricanes, and now any errors related to the recovery (based on disaster plans that have been in place, but refined) since the 60s) is also Bush's Fault. Oh, and it's Bush's fault that all the money that was given to New Orleans over the last 35 years for preparation for such a thing was wasted (instead it went into the pockets of possibly the most corrupt municipal government in the country).[/the left]
I did not, incidentally, make any of that up. I was driving through New Jersey yesterday and about halfway up the Garden State could no longer pick up my radio station. So I ended up channel surfing and found Air America. I have never listened to Air America. I actually put up with about 15 minutes of the above crap before I surfed around to find something tolerable to listen to.
Can someone explain to me why in the hell people would be shooting at the rescue crews and fire departments? What is going through these people's minds?
We are all less than a paycheck away from savagery.
a local radio station here is doing a
Requestathon . any song you want as long as you pay for it. Here's the price list from their website:
$30 - Buzz Songs
$60 - Non-Buzz Songs
$80 - Way off The Buzz Path (example: Barry Manilow)
$200 - Local Bands
You say it ... and pay it ... we'll play it!! Call 713-212-KTBZ to place your request
y'all can listen
hereOH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! from
CNN
BREAKING NEWS New Orleans hospital halts patient evacuations after coming under sniper fire, a doctor who witnessed the incident says. More soon.
Wolf-the disaster isn't Bush's fault. His INADEQUATE response is his fault. He simply is not prepared to handle these things. It never came up while he was at Yale, skipping class and partyin' hardy! He is, however, very prepared should someone need a fourth at bridge.
a local radio station here is doing a Requestathon . any song you want as long as you pay for it. Here's the price list from their website:
$30 - Buzz Songs
$60 - Non-Buzz Songs
$80 - Way off The Buzz Path (example: Barry Manilow)
$200 - Local Bands
You say it ... and pay it ... we'll play it!! Call 713-212-KTBZ to place your request
y'all can listen here
We have a local station in KC that has this kind of fundraising every year, except they'll play anything for $25.00 minimum, even your own demo tapes.
that's a pretty cool deal!
<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/">Journal of a guy in a datacenter in downtown NO</a>, complete with webcam.
...and, if you can connect, point your WinAmp/iTunes to
http://216.22.26.45:8002/ and give a listen. It is a police scanner feed of the EOC in the area. I assume the feed is packed and might bounce you out, but keep trying.
The atrocities I've heard so far are maddening. I've heard several "Code 4s" (homicides) this afternoon, including a the shooting of a ferry boat captain who was attempting to get people out of the area.
Wolf-the disaster isn't Bush's fault. His INADEQUATE response is his fault. He simply is not prepared to handle these things.
THAT is the point that everyone should grasp like a life jacket. When the top man, days later, still does not get it, then all those little heros without names are left to organize the impossible by themselves. Watch the news.
George Jr today said that no one expected levees to fail. Everyone with minimal intelligence knew breeches would occur with any storm above Category 3. Katrina was Category 5. Everyone knew days before; repeatedly discussing 'the bowl'. George Jr, mental midget, lives in another world. Four days later, George Jr still says no one expect levees to be breached. How do those little heros get support and organization they desperately require when the president just does not get it. Is he looking to blame this on .... Iran (as he also blamed 11 September on Saddam)?
My God, it's a quagmire.
[size=1]first to say it: 9/1/05 7:03 pm eastern[/size]
I was listening to the nuts on progressive radio today. Someone needs to let them know that the Governor of Louisiana is a Democrat. The ball was in her court initially and she failed to get the poor and infirm out of that city. We can pile on Bush all we want but let's spread the blame to all responsible parties.
My God, it's a quagmire.
:haha: Hee hee... It's funny 'cause it's literal.
I heard at one point about evacuating masses to naval hospital and cruise ships...wonder if that got scrapped.
No, they are still working on ships for housing.
If those people are hungry and thirsty, why don't they just tell their secret service detail to get something for them? Works for W. :eyebrow:
Note on the snipers:
Get a few Predators in the area, with a couple of Blackhawk follow-ups.
It will only take one or two of these actions before word hits the street.. er, canal and that shit stops.
Mission Accomplished!
Snipers should be killed on sight and strung up from lamposts with a big sign that says "I was a sniper".
I'm guessing there'd be many less snipers.
Wolf-the disaster isn't Bush's fault. His INADEQUATE response is his fault. He simply is not prepared to handle these things. It never came up while he was at Yale, skipping class and partyin' hardy! He is, however, very prepared should someone need a fourth at bridge.
I was being cleverly satiric based on something I'd heard on the radio.
I know a lot more about disaster management than most people, and frankly, the response is not "inadequate" at this point. A Federally Declared Disaster was put in place BEFORE Katrina made landfall, and that declaration is what starts the wheels in motion, literally, for the response.
There are protocols in place for this, none of which are the President's job to determine. That's what FEMA and the equivalent state agencies are for. That doesn't mean that things aren't going to get worse before they get better, of course.
There are protocols in place for this, none of which are the President's job to determine. That's what FEMA and the equivalent state agencies are for. That doesn't mean that things aren't going to get worse before they get better, of course.
OH?
The House of Representatives wants to cut the New Orleans district budget 21 percent to $272.4 million in 2006, down from $343.5 million in 2005. The House figure is about $20 million lower than the president's suggested $290.7 million budget.
It's now up to the Senate. Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-New Orleans, is making no promises.
It's going to be very tough, Landrieu said. The House was not able to add back this money ... but hopefully we can rally in the Senate and get some of this money back.
Landrieu said the[COLOR=DarkRed] [B]Bush administration[/COLOR] is not making Corps of Engineers funding a priority.
I think it's extremely shortsighted, Landrieu said. When the Corps of Engineers' budget is cut, Louisiana bleeds. These projects are literally life-and-death projects to the people of south Louisiana and they are (of) vital economic interest to the entire nation.[/B]
New Orleans City BusinessHas anyone heard from Busterb or the other Cellarites in the area?
Onyx, did he ever say what Mississippi city he lives in? I couldn't find any reference to it in his profile...
Engineering News-Record:
Leaders of the Army Corps of Engineers say the city's flood walls were in excellent shape before the storm but weren't designed to handle a hurricane of Katrina's magnitude.
In a phone briefing Sept. 1, the Army's Chief of Engineers, Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, addressed some of the issues that have surfaced about Corps-built structures around New Orleans. Strock said that the project that resulted in the levees along Lake Pontchartrain was designed to protect against a 200-to-300-year storm, which equates to about a Category 3 hurricane, but Katrina was more severe.
Al Naomi, senior project manager in the Corps' New Orleans District, says, "The [project's] design was not adequate for a storm of this nature." He adds that to cover a Category 5 storm, work on storm protection improvements would have had to start 20 or 25 years ago.
The levee breaches occurred in areas that were "in excellent condition" before the storm and were inspected, said Naomi. He said there was nothing the Corps could have done involving the completed floodwalls that could have prevented the breaches.
Another question concerned the allocation of national resources during a war. The war in Iraq has not had an impact on the Corps budget, said Strock. According to his analysis, Corps funding "has been fairly stable" since the early 1990s and the Corps has spent more than $300 million since 2002 on storm protection in the New Orleans area. "We were just caught by a storm of an intensity which exceeded the design of the [flood protection] project we have in place," he said.
Some Corps contracts in the area had been delayed, but Naomi says those contracts were not in the sections of the levees that failed.
According to his analysis, Corps funding "has been fairly stable" since the early 1990s and the Corps has spent more than $300 million since 2002 on storm protection in the New Orleans area.
Wow. Completely the opposite from what I heard on the news this morning. Their report said the Army Corps had been "pleading for money for decades" to do work on the levees and had seen nothing but massive budget cuts since the 1970s.
Let the spin begin!
Belmont Club points to this
2003 Civil Engineering Magazine article from 2003
Any concerted effort to protect the city from a storm of category 4 or 5 will probably take 30 years to complete. And the feasibility study alone for such an effort will cost as much as $8 million. Even though Congress has authorized the feasibility study, funding has not yet been appropriated. When funds are made available, the study will take about six years to complete. “That’s a lot of time to get the study before Congress,” Naomi admits. “Hopefully we won’t have a major storm before then."
Oops
For the most part, New Orleans does not have places for people to go. The American Red Cross no longer provides emergency shelters in the city because its officials cannot guarantee the structural integrity of the locations ... that could withstand the forces of a category 4 or 5 storm. ...
Most people would not wish to remain in the city if a category 4 or 5 storm were in prospect, but evacuating could be difficult. Experts say close to 400,000 people could be stranded in the city. There are an estimated 100,000 people without easy access to automobiles, and those who can drive may not be able to do so. ... Complicating the difficulty in New Orleans is the fact that each of the city’s three major evacuation routes is over or near water.
As Belmont Club says "they got that one right".
Has anyone heard from Busterb or the other Cellarites in the area?
We're trying to track them
here. Scopulus checked in we haven't heard from busterb as far as I know. Can you think of anyone else?
Here is yet another
slideshow of the devastation
Can someone explain to me why in the hell people would be shooting at the rescue crews and fire departments? What is going through these people's minds?
spend any amount of time in the ghetto and this question becomes self -explanatory
Having not spent the time in the way you've described, perhaps you have some insight to us ghetto-experience-poor dwellars. *Why* in the world is it a good idea to shoot at these people? I really can't imagine an answer to that question.
I wasnt trying to imply that it is a good idea to shoot at the rescue workers, but from experience I do know that very little these people do makes any sense to a logical mind, so I was not suprised at all to hear that sniper shots were being taken at a helicopter evacuating a hospital. It makes no sense at all therefore it makes perfect sense.
ahh. that explains it.
*wanders off....*
I was listening to the nuts on progressive radio today. Someone needs to let them know that the Governor of Louisiana is a Democrat. The ball was in her court initially and she failed to get the poor and infirm out of that city. We can pile on Bush all we want but let's spread the blame to all responsible parties.
Hello there, a bright light in a foggy room. This is obviously a major failure to plan on a LOCAL level folks. Before this storm came in every politician in town was saying how they had been waiting and preparing for this storm for all of their lives. Can anyone identify a single action that was planned? The idea of using the Superdome came at the very last minute. Is there anyone down there who didnt know that this was coming? You cant live below sea level by the sea. And to make matters worse the problem has only been compounded over time by continuing to raise the levees and straighten the river and drain the wetlands. Disaster planning and response begins on the local level, the plan in New Orleans was apparently RUN!!
Has anyone heard from Busterb or the other Cellarites in the area?
Busterb lives in Bay Springs, just north of New Orleans. Haven't been able to find any info on the town, but many places in that region seem to be low on food or out and the same with drinking water, and electricity. Ice is being distributed. Hope Busterb is OK.
Here is yet another slideshow of the devastation
Most telling are the pictures that do not exist. Such as lines of C5A transport planes lined up in Louis Armstrong International discharging troops and supplies AND taking victims out of New Orleans. That picture assumes the disaster leadership and administration was not in denial for 5 days.
When Air Force 1 arrives in Louis Armstrong International, how much food and water will it bring for the people of New Orleans?
Before this storm came in every politician in town was saying how they had been waiting and preparing for this storm for all of their lives. Can anyone identify a single action that was planned?
Go read about the Ted Koppel interview last night of FEMAs director. Read the interview of New Orleans mayor. They had been complaining for years about the 17th Street Canal levee that was not finished for two years when federal resources authorized by Congress suddenly could not be found. Need I tell you where the levee broke?
FEMA already did an exercise just for this event. They knew that 100,000 people might not have resources to leave the town. FEMA knew this disaster was coming days before and did not even bring in fleets of flatbed trucks to take the people out. The town was declared a Federal Disaster Area long before Katrina arrived. And yet still FEMA made no effort to provide transport for those people.
You can also blame the Governors. Within hours of the storm, already loaded National Guardsman should have been moving south in AL LA and MS. It is not the long term planning that is at fault. New Orleans should have been more than just flooded. It should have been pummeled by hurricane waves accross all broken levees. New Orleans suffered little of what FEMA knew was coming. Yet FEMA cannot even address that problem. FEMA did not even have plans to immeidately setup air traffic control in nearby airports. Insteaed, cars drove to those airports to distribute satellite telephones. What kind of response is that? Same as the American response to a Tsunami only a year ago. Pathetic.
Busterb lives in Bay Springs, just north of New Orleans. Haven't been able to find any info on the town, but many places in that region seem to be low on food or out and the same with drinking water, and electricity. Ice is being distributed. Hope Busterb is OK.
What Little I just found :
Jasper County Damage
Jasper County, Miss.
Andrea Williams
"It's major! There's no gas for vehicles! No water for people! It's MAJOR!"
Jasper County Civil Defense Director Joe Springer is describing the situation in and around the town of Bay Springs.
"We have major power outages. All of our water wells are down. The hospital is out of water," says Springer.
According to emergency responders, Jasper County was one of the hardest areas hit. In fact, the roof was taken off a mobile home during the storm. Not only that, but officials say it took them three hours to rescue a woman who had been hit by a tree. During that time they say they had to cut trees from Bay Springs all the way to Heidelberg and then into Jones County just to get her some help.
While most of the hardest hit areas in Jasper County are still covered with too much debris to reach, we did talk with two residents who are now dealing with damage.
"It took the whole roof off," says homeowner Barbara Tatum Turner. "It took the porch first and then it went taking the top off."
"It makes me very upset! I paid it off eight years ago," says homeowner Nancy Evans who lost everything in the storm.
While Stringer says it will likely take weeks to have power and phone service fully restored to the entire county, he says what makes it worse is that the county doesn't have ice or water to disperse to those in need. Despite this, residents we talked to say as with Hurricane Katrina, “This too shall pass!”
"It's gonna be alright! says Turner, "I'm going to make it, someway, somehow, we're going to make it!"
That gave me goosebumps, Glatt. Oh, I so hope busterb is OK! My prayers to him and his family. :( Just damn.
Busterb lives in Bay Springs, just north of New Orleans.
Well, we do know that he lives against the fence of the prison.
We know that he has been putting up vegetables all summer.
We know that he is a very resourceful gentleman.
We know that he has a lot of friends in his community.
I hope that at least some of this works in his favor.
This just in--Superdome to Astrodome transfer of refugees is ended. The Astrodome is full. No Vacancy. Next step, tent cities and get crackin. Likely in Texas, with plenty of open ground for mass scale temporary housing.
I've one question: Where are the French? It's their city!
I am sooo sad over all of this. Then I hear news about snipers shooting at hospital evacuees...then I read wolf saying we're all just one paycheck away from savagery, and I have to agree with that...but, man. This is bad. This is third world shit. Where is America?
This shit *is* America...it is America without cable TV, air conditioning, SUVs, big stereos, fast food.
Pay close attention, folks. History tells us that we're going to see more of this at some point. It may be a different cause, but take away the stuff that keeps the underprivileged and politically suppressed docile, and see what comes about.
Well, we do know that he lives against the fence of the prison.
We know that he has been putting up vegetables all summer.
We know that he is a very resourceful gentleman.
We know that he has a lot of friends in his community.
I hope that at least some of this works in his favor.
Oh, Wolf, I hope so, too! Glatt's info is pretty worrisome. I know Busterb is a gentleman who was fascinated by my old "metal mule" picture. We had quite the discussion PM-ing back and forth about the amazing works of art welders can create from just some scraps of iron. Busterb is a good old guy, and I pray he made it through OK.
I've one question: Where are the French? It's their city!
At the beginning Bush said USA didn't need international help.
He said, the day after Katrina : "I don't expect much from foreign countries because we didn't ask them !"
Has he ever missed one mistake ?
When I saw him on TV comforting a crying woman and her girl ! Just for propaganda, 4 days after !
Does it need other comments ?
Throw Bush in the Mississipi to make him understand, if it's not too late for him.
Thursday French prime minister has offered humanitary help, boats, planes quickly available in French Antillas (Guadeloupe and Martinique)
Other European countries, Germany, UK, Holland... on their own, or among Europe also decided to help USA.
So do Japan, Taiwan, ONU...
I don't know if the government of Bengladesh will help Bush because they are skilled in facing floodings.
For us this disaster is beyond measure : Flooded territories represent half of France !
It took 1 or 2 days for French people to realise how important it was.
The first news were saying that finally Katerina was level 3 instead of 5, and that New Orleans didn't suffer at all as feared in worst case.
We were thinking that US would easily cope with this situation alone.
When the tsunami occured one year ago in Asia, there was a great generosity because they are third-world-countries-that-need-international-help.
It's quite difficult to realise that an important part of the first powerful country in the world becomes so deeply paralysed in one day.
I am sooo sad over all of this. Then I hear news about snipers shooting at hospital evacuees...then I read wolf saying we're all just one paycheck away from savagery, and I have to agree with that...but, man. This is bad. This is third world shit. Where is America?
This shit *is* America...it is America without cable TV, air conditioning, SUVs, big stereos, fast food.
Pay close attention, folks. History tells us that we're going to see more of this at some point. It may be a different cause, but take away the stuff that keeps the underprivileged and politically suppressed docile, and see what comes about.
Yes, Yes, Yes.
French revolution happened after some years of bad weather that gave bad crops. Folk was starving.
Modern society has also forgotten modesty. Mother nature reminds of it.
Playing with rules of nature will cause other social troubles. (Sounds apocalyptic and sententious, sorry)
As usual, the most important victims are among poor social classes (poor, black, old) that leaders like Bush don't care of.
If this society is so fragile, maybe because it's not based on good and basic values.
A society shouldn't neither consist in screwing more strongly a lid over the pressure of unfairness.
So sad.
Wishing victims will rapidly find food, water, family, security, dry ground, home, job, courage to rebuilt their life...
And run and buy the new Playstation...
Hoping that accurate preventive measures will be taken. But if we're waiting for Bush....
At the beginning Bush said USA didn't need international help.
He said, the day after Katrina : "I don't expect much from foreign countries because we didn't ask them !"
Has he ever missed one mistake ?
When I saw him on TV comforting a crying woman and her girl ! Just for propaganda, 4 days after !
Does it need other comments ?
Throw Bush in the Mississipi to make him understand, if it's not too late for him.
Couldn't agree more, bargalunan! Throw the bastard into the worst hit areas of the city and let the snipers finish him off!
Thursday French prime minister has offered humanitary help, boats, planes quickly available in French Antillas (Guadeloupe and Martinique)
Gee, why do we hate the French, again? Would someone like to remind me? Thank you, my friend!
I don't know if the government of Bengladesh will help Bush because they are skilled in facing floodings.
Do you think they'd drown him for us if we sent him over there? The US would supply the cement shoes, Bangladesh could supply the water. Dinner's at 6:00, Georgie!*
For us this disaster is beyond measure : Flooded territories represent half of France !
Well, I'm glad someONE cares. No one here seems overly concerned. We might have to "throw money" at a levee. Wouldn't want to do that here in the superior US of A. You wussy Europeans can take care of your infra-structure. We are above such things. (or under them, as the case might be)
As usual, the most important victims are among poor social classes (poor, black, old) that leaders like Bush don't care of.
If this society is so fragile, maybe because it's not based on good and basic values.
A society shouldn't neither consist in screwing more strongly a lid over the pressure of unfairness.
Well, let me expain our ever so advanced American society to you, bargalunan. See, all those po' folks who died or are dying in New Orleans SHOULD HAVE PLANNED, so they deserve what they get - even if its death. Too poor to own a car that you could have driven out of town? Obviously, you lack the Protestant Work Ethic - death for you! Too old to climb to higher ground? Who needs you? They're cutting Social Security, anyhow. Bye-bye. Owned or rented a home in a flooded area of town? Hmmm... Isn't that a black neighborhood? No problem! As we all know, black folk are gifted athletes and can easily dog paddle for days.
Gosh, don't you wish you were lucky enough to live here?
* Cement shoes or overcoat - slang for murdering someone and dropping them with plenty of weight on the body (like cement) off in a river somewhere.
I just watched Fox - the O'Reilly Factor and Hannity and Colmbes....losts of criticism of the Louisiana governor and N.O. mayor, followed by a lot of praise on Houston's excellent organization and ability to meet the immediate needs of all of the people they've taken in.
Pay close attention, folks. History tells us that we're going to see more of this at some point. It may be a different cause, but take away the stuff that keeps the underprivileged and politically suppressed docile, and see what comes about.
Personally, I'm waiting for the fallout to settle (literally) from a dirty bomb in a major city.
I don't know if my employer will let me go yet, but I'm on alert for possible activation to go to the disaster area.
Personally, I'm waiting for the fallout to settle (literally) from a dirty bomb in a major city.
I don't know if my employer will let me go yet, but I'm on alert for possible evacuation to go to the disaster area.
You mean the Katrina disater area? (as opposed to the dirty bomb disater area?) ... stupid question probably ....
Seeing Geraldo cry and the other news reporters getting sooo pissed at the lack of relief to those people in NO shows how much criticism this relief effort is going to get. And they had not seen a Red Cross person or vehicle yet. The first trucks I saw were Salvation Army trucks.
You mean the Katrina disater area? (as opposed to the dirty bomb disater area?) ... stupid question probably ....
Yes, I am on standby for activation for Katrina.
I just watched Fox - the O'Reilly Factor and Hannity and Colmbes....losts of criticism of the Louisiana governor and N.O. mayor, followed by a lot of praise on Houston's excellent organization and ability to meet the immediate needs of all of the people they've taken in.
Right Wing mouthpiece, doing its job.
Make sure and catch MSNBC so you see the Left's hair-tearing portrayal of everything. Then add the two together, divide by 2, and you'll have the real gist of things.
Fair and Balanced can only occur inside your own mind, because TV sure isn't going to show it.
I haven't really been watching the news on this a lot, so I've missed some things.
Do we have an official ribbon color yet? What about the rubber wristband?
Make sure and catch MSNBC so you see the Left's hair-tearing portrayal of everything. Then add the two together, divide by 2, and you'll have the real gist of things.
If you have access to satlite add to that BBC and devide by 3 , That is the streight scoop !!!
I don't have access to BBC but I will check out the MSNBC coverage. I know they have a beyond-comprehension tremendous job to do.
Sounds like they had a hell of a thugs and deviants gathering
at the Convention Center.
It is going to be very, very interesting to see how the Bush administration wriggles out of this. The N.O. Mayor is going to have to be neutralized for sure. Is there a sacrificial Louisiana Congressman who can also take a fall for the team?
Yes, I am on standby for activation for Katrina.
That's great. I don't know anyone directly affected, but I know that people will certainly need help. Thanks to folks like you, a lot of them will get it. The changes in life and "trauma" my son experienced when he was 4 and 5 when his sister went through cancer (and died) affected him so much that he started stuttering, and still does at 18. I cannot even begin to imagine how some of these kids (and adults too) will be affected.
It is going to be very, very interesting to see how the Bush administration wriggles out of this. The N.O. Mayor is going to have to be neutralized for sure. Is there a sacrificial Louisiana Congressman who can also take a fall for the team?
Yes, it will be very interesting. Sad, but interesting. I'm sure the reason Bush was on TV tonight in Mississippi hugging young black girls who had lost "everything" (but looked to me like they had showered and eaten recently) was because he would just "be in the way" in NO.
In the blur, stories that stick:
The Convention Center with the elderly and babies in the heat. One nurse there doing her best.
Charity Hospital, critical patients, including those being hand ventilated for days, no relief, wait and watch while Tulane's staff, able bodies, are completely evacuated from across the street. Charity's sick must wait another day. Public vs. private.
Hiatt Regency guests arrive at the Superdome where thousands were still waiting days for their turn to leave by bus and are allowed to jump to the front of the Superdome evacuation bus line. The haves and the have nots.
One New Orleans fire department/division has been working from boats, basically on their own, in the 9th ward and has rescued over 900 people from roof tops. Amazing heros.
Grassroots relief: Citizens driving into MS with food caravans of their own. No red cross in sight.
Separated families.
Who will take it from you
We will and who are we
We are volunteers of America :vikingsmi
I just watched Fox - the O'Reilly Factor and Hannity and Colmbes....losts of criticism of the Louisiana governor and N.O. mayor, followed by a lot of praise on Houston's excellent organization and ability to meet the immediate needs of all of the people they've taken in.
You should have seen right through those half truth lies as they left the lips. Houston is a larger city that only took in a few ten thousand people. AND all facilities were intact and functional. They could even tap their sururbs for assistance. To praise Houston, wait till they have to take in a second hundred thousand refugees. Only then does aid becomes challenging. Ahhh. But what is necessary to lie? Fox News must forget to provide numbers - not put the disaster into perspective. Perspective is not what a 'black and white' propaganda service wants to report.
Everyone is asking about busterb. Rumored to be that bad even about 1/4 up the state and just southeast of Jackson MS. Houston has all suburbs intact. Bay Springs is reported to take three hours just to rescue local folk. How does the LA or MS governor get aid to New Orleans when even way north in Bay Springs, it takes hours to rescue people. New Orleans nor LA even have suburbs for support.
Glaring fact. Louis Armstrong International airport that is right at the disaster location is all but empty. A nation chock full of C5A, C17, C-130, and C-141 transport aircraft as well as others such as 747s and DC-10s sent how much aid into the city by air? When asked why military planes were not providing such assistance, well, the federal government never asked. George Jr never asked. Where is Fox News on this story? Its called lying by telling half truths.
When it is declared a federal disaster area, the #1 organization for all decisions and action is FEMA. A responsible president is taking all FEMA calls personally. But George says it's ... hhhaaaarrrrddd.
Learn the lessons of history. When Andrew went through FL, some reservist friends were transported to Harrisburg to man the large military storehouses there. They sat there doing nothing. One reported the entire FEMA request was for one tent and a few generators. Meanwhile, about 5 days later, a FL county official found some press people and said, "Send everything you have now. People will be dying in hours."
Deja Vue. FEMA's response in FL after Andrews was just as pathetic as its response in New Orleans. A response one can expect from people who are promoted because they are politically correct - and therefore don't have a George Patton attitude of solving problems. But again, these deaths were more than ten years ago. How many forget back then how FEMA let people die. Appreciate the angry look behind Ted Koppel's eyes as the FEMA director repeatedly avoided or would not even answer hard questions. Only anti-Americans would have acted as FEMA and this administration have. So bad was the response that accusations of racism or second class citizenry cannot be ignored.
Where are these supporters of George Jr now that the meddle of the man is tested. His response to this hurricane is just like he ran his oil company business and just like the "Mission Accomplished" war. No oil was found, the investors lost everything, but George Jr got rich. Leave it to Fox News to lie again about the integrity of the man - and blame the victims.
Is the airport actually viable? Are the runways intact and inspected? And is the transportation infrastructure intact to be able to get stuff FROM the airport, or would a bunch of quartermasters be sitting around scratching their asses watching food spoil because you can't get it to where it's needed?
Glaring fact. Louis Armstrong International airport that is right at the disaster location is all but empty. A nation chock full of C5A, C17, C-130, and C-141 transport aircraft as well as others such as 747s and DC-10s sent how much aid into the city by air? When asked why military planes were not providing such assistance, well, the federal government never asked. George Jr never asked. Where is Fox News on this story? Its called lying by telling half truths.
The initial response from the air was underwhelming.
As of Tuesday, MSY (The Louis Armstrong Airport) airport has been used as a staging area. MSY , located smack dab in the middle of the disaster area but outside of New Orleans ( in Kenner, La, 10 miles west of New Orleans) was initially reported to be underwater. I am not sure if the reports were true but I'm certain it delayed its initial usage as decisions were made using these initial reports.
That said, the *initial* response from the air was underwhelming. Presently, I'm seeing medical evacuation traffic overhead fast and furious. (It has actually slowed down as of yesterday after noon) I've yet to observe massive logisitical support aircraft. Those may arrive/(may have arrived) from another direction. (I am in Southeast Baton Rouge and directly in the flight path for a good bit of air traffic)
The statement "FEMA leadership and control" is oxymoronic. It needed to be pushed aside. Luckily, we still have some local leaders with the balls to do so. Sheriff Harry Lee, Sheriff of Jefferson Parish (west of New Orleans) basically declared his Parish has seceded from the United State and that he was in charge. He sent his own crew in for rescue and civil order operations. JPSO is one of the most competent, efficient, and well trained police organizations in the country. (you don't f*** with them...They are the reason New Orleans crime stays in the city and does not plague JP) (This statement was an anecdote from someone who left the area, I can't claim its accuracy - but I do know his crews are WORKING the area)
FEMA cost hundreds of people their lives, spread and intensified misery, and emasculated those in power who could have done something about the situation.
All is moot though, people should have been evacuated; it could have been done. People of common sense and the means (and not in special circumstances) did just that. There was plenty warning for an ounce of prevention.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1761346,00.html
(edited to paste in the link)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1761346,00.htmlSo does anybody know how the airboats came to be arriving in MO? Were they called, or did they just volunteer and show up? Just curious....
My husband had an airboat a few years ago and the Corp of Engineers came around and asked if he could be listed as someone to contact should an airboat ever be needed in the area. (The can operate in very shallow water) So I just wondered....
Is the airport actually viable? Are the runways intact and inspected? And is the transportation infrastructure intact to be able to get stuff FROM the airport, ...
I had already been looking at that on satellite pictures. The airport in Kenner and roads southeast to the Mississippi side of New Orleans were unflooded ground. For example, this map from the NY Times entitled
The Impact of Katrina provides details. A free registration may be required to view the satellite map. Click on "Levee System" to see land and roads that were above water into New Orleans.
But don't worry. George Jr said he is going to fix it. Just keep waiting for food and water. It's coming.....
Again, learn from history. The George Jr response before, during, and after 11 September was woefully underwhelming. Even George Jr administration officials could not decide to ground all airliners. That was initiated by Boston Center, NYC, and then by someone who did not have the authority and was on his first week on the job in Herndon Center - all while the Transportation Secretary, FAA Director and Cheney all made no decisions (that the 11 September Commission could confirm). Top George Jr administration officials even lied to the 11 September Commission about their actions. The 11 September report says they lied. Cheney never even authorized US military aircraft to shoot down attacking airliners - even though he said he did. George Jr, well, he read a children's book in FL.
The Tsunami response was to have the US military waiting for most of the week before George Jr finally authorized a rescue mission. Literally, the entire world had to embarrass the US before George Jr ever responded to a Tsunami disaster. Another action well recorded in history.
George Jr's response in New Orleans is only consistent with 11 September and the Tsunami. A Hurricane hit Monday. He lied about 400 trucks enroute. Food, water, and National Guard did not arrive until Friday. Even Nightline on Thursday had to publicly embarrass the Director of FEMA before food, water, and National Guard finally were deployed on ..... Friday.
My criticisms of George Jr have long been based only on facts; on basic principles of management. Based upon his history, the pathetic response to New Orleans has been also how the George Jr administration responded to 11 September and to the Indian Ocean Tsunami. But again, show me. Show me where any of this is in error. History teaches us, again, that MBAs are horrible leaders. One would have to be living in a Communist Stalinist country to forgive George Jr for what he has now done ... done for the third time.
Oh... but he finally ordered the USS Comfort out of Baltimore harbor. No problem. It will arrive 12 days after the hurricane. Of course every victim could have been flown by C5A and C17 to hospitals elsewhere that were better equipped. George Jr forgot to mention that part when he bragged that the USS Comfort was enroute. Classic MBA spin.
I hate to say I've telling you so. But again, I don't waste time with pictures of crying people or other silly emotions. I go after a devil in the details. Go back to my first posts. They still hold water ... including the part about how local officials were in denial of a Category 5 storm. That weekend, the casinos and conventions went on as normal when everyone should have been leaving town hastily.
An interview with a casino worker said he did not know the storm was coming. He had worked all week in a casino. Even casino management was in denial. Basic concepts of quality - attitude and knowledge. Top management in casinos and in government did exactly as William Edward Deming defines as bad management. Same errors that also murdered seven Challenger and seven Columbia astronauts. Same management that somehow could not find C5A and C17s to rescue dying Americans. You tell me who is the enemy of America. Non-Americans are invited to comment about why American leadership has also soured American foreign relations. It's all the same thing.
The sky over New Orleans should have been packed with transport aircraft like it was Chicago or Dallas / Ft Worth. Residents should have been able to look up at any second to see 6 planes in landing patterns. But that means George Jr has to order assistance. Even Air Force One was not packed to the wings with food and water. But that 747 was loaded with press photographers - and promises that aid was coming.
So does anybody know how the airboats came to be arriving in MO? Were they called, or did they just volunteer and show up? Just curious....
I believe they were rounded up by LA Fish and Game. :)
Non-Americans are invited to comment about why American leadership has also soured American foreign relations. It's all the same thing.
I think many countries (the UK included) were stunned to learn Dubya had been elected into a second term of office, even more so that his incompetent cronies seem to fuck-up with impunity, safe in the knowledge their jobs are protected.
If there's been one good thing to come out of this recent disaster, then it's the possibility of the population being shaken from their ennui and catching a glimpse of the bigger picture.
Historically, this has been the stuff of revolutions & civil war.
.
Vacation is Over... an open letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush
You wussy Europeans can take care of your infra-structure. We are above such things. (or under them, as the case might be)
Too many French politicians and economical leaders take US economy as their model, and pray capitalism god.
The worst of them, Nicolas Sarkozy could be our next president. He's a neocon.
A guy I know who votes our Extreme Right Leader, Le Pen, even thinks Sarkozy is crazy and dangerous !
The problem is that he's everywhere in front of the cameras.
He's really fascinating, he always has good answers and a lot of energy despite he's lying and does the contrary.
He can sell a radio to deaf people.
He takes the first opportunity to expulse poors, immigrates like this week.
I've heard that the next possible German chancellor, Angela Merkel, shares the same ideas.
Kinds of politicians who want to reduce money for social help, public service and decrease direct taxes when they stronger increase indirect ones.
Crazy times.
I was of the opinion, on day 3 (Wednesday) that martial law should have been declared to quell the looting and such.
Now I am of a different mind, for a few reasons.
1) With no food or water getting into the area (strange that people with guns can get in, but not backpacks with MRE's...) there is no other recourse but to (a) walk out or (b) break into buildings and get supplies from local sources until evacuation.
If the response had been what everyone was expecting it would be but turned out NOT to have been, then yes, looting would have been simply unconscionable. However, with the current state of things, NOT fending for yourself, by whatever means necessary, is the unconscionable part. Please understand, I'm not talking about "fending for yourself" as in raping women and children (rumoured to be happening) but I think at this point, looting to keep yourself and your family alive is the best thing you could do, short of walking out to safety.
I also have a few questions:
1) If troops (cops, rescuers, whatever) with guns can get in to "control the crowd", why can't the crowd get out to food/shelter/water/supplies?
2) Why aren't people simply leaving the Superdome? Seems to me MORE people are being rescued offsite, by the coast guard or whoever, than are being rescued from the superdome and convention center. I'd be a walking/swimming/crawling fool before I stand/sit/whine that no one is coming to rescue me.
3) If people are being prevented from leaving, WHY are they being prevented from simply walking to somewhere safe, with supplies?
The government has failed these people but still they wait around and do nothing. You know, I might die trying to get out of New Orleans, but it's better than starving to death, waiting for an evacuation that never came.
An interview with a casino worker said he did not know the storm was coming. He had worked all week in a casino. Even casino management was in denial.
I don't see how you get that ... I worked in a nuthouse all week, well outside of the storm zone, didn't watch the news ...
but I still knew a big goddamned storm was going to hit New Orleans or thereabouts.
Anybody that clueless needs to be out of the gene pool.
Anybody that clueless needs to be out of the gene pool.
Well, for once you and I are in complete agreement. I NEVER watch the news, but I still knew all about the hurricane in advance way up here in Colorado. What? Was that casino worker deaf and blind? You mean to tell me that not a single patron of the establishment he worked in happened to mention ever so casually as he lugged his winnings or empty bank account (more likely) out the door, "gotta go now, there's a hurricane coming?" Not a single co-worker ever mentioned in passing that they were going to go home and pack up their car just in case? The dude never so much as passed a newspaper stand on his way to or from work with the glaring headline, "GET OUT NOW!" Give me a break!
Onyx, to answer your question about why people just didn't start walking out. A number of them did, but others were elderly or Mom's with infants and tiny children and many were sick or handicapped. Pretty difficult for such folks to go out on the lawless streets of the city and just start walking in all that heat with nowhere to go and no money once they got there.
I agree that if I had children to feed, I'd have gotten them food any way I could, but doing so would have meant joining a group of young punks with guns who reportedly were not above rape as well as pillage, and the grocery shelves had probably already been cleared out well in advance, anyhow.
I NEVER watch the news, but I still knew all about the hurricane in advance way up here in Colorado. What? Was that casino worker deaf and blind? You mean to tell me that not a single patron of the establishment he worked in happened to mention ever so casually as he lugged his winnings or empty bank account (more likely) out the door, "gotta go now, there's a hurricane coming?" Not a single co-worker ever mentioned in passing that they were going to go home and pack up their car just in case? The dude never so much as passed a newspaper stand on his way to or from work with the glaring headline, "GET OUT NOW!" Give me a break!
I had the same response which is why I did not post this example days previously. However, the point is not that the casino worker was that myopic. The point is that his employer was so negligent - had improper attitude and knowledge - as to keep running the casino / convention that weekend. The point is that 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. That management is responsible for the correct attitude and knowledge. A responsible management would have been boarding up the casino that weekend. Instead, the employees were working as if nothing bad was expected.
I am also struck by an interview with a Scottish couple who flew in Saturday. They kept asking if this 'ocean storm' was a problem. They were told (by people not defined) that the storm was no problem. Now appreciate a Scottish couple that has little comprehension of what Category 5 means. But when they asked residents, such as their airline, such as the limo driver; the locals were not concerned. That is damning.
Meanwhile, as that Scottish couple was arriving, Delta airline on Saturday were already pulling out the last of the airplanes and staff. There would be no more Delta flights in or out on and after Sunday because Delta management conveyed attitude and knowledge to their people.
I am also struck by what the Louisiana Governor kept getting from Michael Brown when she kept warning about the impending disaster in New Orleans. His response was, well, I saw his response to Ted Koppel's repeated questions on Nightline even 3 days after the hurricane. According to the Governor, Michael Brown's response was, loosely interpreted as, "Don't worry. Be happy."
Now maybe his actual response was or was not. But I have a difficult time believing Michael Brown since Ted Koppel on Nightline demonstrated a Federal official, three days after the hurricane, and still in denial. He did not even know that people were not being fed in the Superdome and Convention Center? He desperately tried to avoid admitting that he knew maybe 100,000 people could not get out of New Orleans. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Even a former FEMA Director said on TV that given planning that already existed, then one could only assume the problems were only in top management.
The quote from that casino worker only demonstrates how much in denial top management really was both before and after the disaster. And yet some 50% of Americans still say George Jr was doing a good job. Where does this denial really start?
1) If troops (cops, rescuers, whatever) with guns can get in to "control the crowd", why can't the crowd get out to food/shelter/water/supplies?
With only rare exceptions, there was no National Guard in New Orleans until Friday. Friday is when the National Guard and food first arrived at the Convention Center. 125 Special Forces sat north of New Orleans simply waiting for a mission. At a minimum, each soldier could have been deputized and assigned to New Orleans policemen. But that calls for intelligence in FEMA and the George Jr White House.
Previously quoted was a statement from the State Police spokesman of New Orleans cops literally resigning. This can only happen when they have zero support - as demonstrated in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". There was no National Guard, et al. Ted Koppel interview makes it woefully obvious why. Did you hear the WWL-AM radio interview of New Orleans Mayor Nagin? Why not? Why do you think at the end of that interview he started crying? Do you really understand how pathetic this president and his FEMA people really were?
Now 'the powers that be' are spinning it - blaming others - because just like on 11 September, the administration did nothing - nada - zero. Let me remind you that is a fact. On 11 September, the administration did not one useful action. Some even lied to the September 11 Commission about doing things they did not do.
2) Why aren't people simply leaving the Superdome? Seems to me MORE people are being rescued offsite, by the coast guard or whoever, than are being rescued from the superdome and convention center. I'd be a walking/swimming/crawling fool before I stand/sit/whine that no one is coming to rescue me.
Where do you think the Coast Guard, et al were delivering the 'rescued' to? The Superdome and Convention Center. Rescuers were doing what FEMA instructed. Why would the rescued have to rescue themselves? Why would people who have had no food or water for three days leave the only location rumored to be safe and where the food and water was suppose to be coming ... anytime now? Even the president said that food and water was coming. Or course, he lied. But how did those people know?
Look, top management of FEMA and the president of the US were lying. Where were those 400 trucks of food and water from Monday? One with an engineer's attitude immediately suspects a lie. The president provides no useful information so that news services could confirm that 400 truck claim. At what point do the majority of Americans acknowledge that this president is clearly a mental midget?
The people in the Superdome and Convention Center were doing what they were told because it was their only hope of living. Thank god for people like the press who reported this problem for days. Finally even FEMA learned of the problem three days later because they feared what you might think.
3) If people are being prevented from leaving, WHY are they being prevented from simply walking to somewhere safe, with supplies?
First off, there was no place with supplies to go to. There were no supplies being delivered for days. Second there were few known safe places. I am particularly struck by an Ohio girl who wandered for days with a group of fellow casino employees constantly running into life threatening situations. Once the reporter loaned her a cell phone, she called her dad in OH, begging him to come and get her out - and of course crying. They, like most all people, could not get out, found the city full of danger, AND for days no National Guard and no supplies were available.
I am particularly struck that almost 50% of this nation (in polls) says that George Jr did a good job in New Orleans. Michael Brown is his man. Responsible managers (ie Gen George Patten) would have been on the phone repeatedly every day getting reports and, most important, demanding to know directly from Michael Brown what FEMA needed this hour. Clearly the President did not do what any good manager does. But then this president was an MBA who never ran a successful organization; never even brought in one oil well. George Jr did exactly what MBAs do.
In hindsight, you would think that people would have started walking to the airport some ten miles away in the 90+ degree sun. Well, I ride a bicycle only ten miles and people actually think that is a major accomplishment - when fed and watered. Eight miles on a bike is about equal to one mile of walking which is actually considered a challenge to many people. But now you want them to walk ten miles to an airport down roads they don't know are open let alone safe? You want them to walk to someplace that has just as much no food and water? At least they had sun shade where they were. You want them to walk after not having water for three days? People die after three days of no water. Now you expect them to walk ten plus miles to something that may not even exist?
Most people did what they were told. They assumed top management was working for them. They did not understand that George Jr was spinning this crisis as he did 11 September and the Tsunami response. In fact, a challenger to every Cellar dweller who did not agree with my analysis of the Tsunami. Fess up now. Tell me George Jr was responsible back then? So many even in the Cellar are in denial of what is required from the boss.
In 11 September, the George Jr administration did not one action to avert or responsibly respond during the 11 September attacks. That made woefully obvious from the September 11 Commission report. Most people just assumed aid was coming to New Orleans as they had been told. Many believed a president who said that 400 trucks with food and water were enroute. So, of course, those people did not walk out.
Now you want to believe they will walk ten miles in 90 degree heat to someplace they don't even know is safe - after not eating or drinking for three days?
The devil is in those details - such as no water for three days. One detail that is woefully obvious is outright criminal neglect of New Orleans by Pres George Jr and by his personal agent on the scene - Michael Brown, Director of FEMA. Brown was a George Jr appointee without any experience in anything closely resembling emergency management. He is classic of what MBAs promote - people without any dirt under their fingernails - but a political supporter.
If you did not see the Nightline interview, then you don't appreciate how much outright lying and denial was Michael Brown. He respresents what other George Jr appointees did during 11 September. Did you see how Koppel literally seethed as Michael Brown avoided every damning question.
We have a classic example of the George Jr administration. Those lines of C5A, 747, C17, C130, and C141 transport planes in Louis Armstrong International unloading food and water, then removing victims to hospitals and shelter elsewhere. Where are those pictures? Right there next to all the promises from George Jr about 400 trucks and the rebuilding of Trent Lott's porch. Most telling are pictures that don't exist such as tens of thousands of National Guardsmen delivering food and water to the Superdome and Convention Center. The most informative pictures are the ones that could never exist - thank you Mr President.
almost 50% of this nation (in polls) says that George Jr did a good job in New Orleans.
:mg: :eyebrow: :mad: :banghead:
I feel better when I remember we can doubt polls validity...
From the staff of the New Orleans Times-Picayune Sunday 9/4
We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, "What is not working, we’re going to make it right."
Please forgive us if we wait to see proof of your promise before believing you. But we have good reason for our skepticism.
Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It’s accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.
How much easier it is to access in 2005 now that there are interstates and bridges, airports and helipads, cruise ships, barges, buses and diesel-powered trucks.
Despite the city’s multiple points of entry, our nation’s bureaucrats spent days after last week’s hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city’s stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies.
Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city.
Television reporters were doing live reports from downtown New Orleans streets. Harry Connick Jr. brought in some aid Thursday, and his efforts were the focus of a "Today" show story Friday morning.
Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach.
We’re angry, Mr. President, and we’ll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That’s to the government’s shame.
Mayor Ray Nagin did the right thing Sunday when he allowed those with no other alternative to seek shelter from the storm inside the Louisiana Superdome. We still don’t know what the death toll is, but one thing is certain: Had the Superdome not been opened, the city’s death toll would have been higher. The toll may even have been exponentially higher.
It was clear to us by late morning Monday that many people inside the Superdome would not be returning home. It should have been clear to our government, Mr. President. So why weren’t they evacuated out of the city immediately? We learned seven years ago, when Hurricane Georges threatened, that the Dome isn’t suitable as a long-term shelter. So what did state and national officials think would happen to tens of thousands of people trapped inside with no air conditioning, overflowing toilets and dwindling amounts of food, water and other essentials?
State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn’t have but two urgent needs: "Buses! And gas!" Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.
In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn’t known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, "We’ve provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they’ve gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day."
Lies don’t get more bald-faced than that, Mr. President.
Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, "You’re doing a heck of a job."
That’s unbelievable.
There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.
We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We’re no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia. Our people deserved to be rescued.
No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced. Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn’t be reached.
Mr. President, we sincerely hope you fulfill your promise to make our beloved communities work right once again.
When you do, we will be the first to applaud.
Sorry for posting lots of quoted text, but he says it so well.
From Sunday's Face the Nation:
SCHIEFFER: Finally, a personal thought. We have come through what may have been one of the worst weeks in America's history, a week in which government at every level failed the people it was created to serve. There is no purpose for government except to improve the lives of its citizens. Yet as scenes of horror that seemed to be coming from some Third World country flashed before us, official Washington was like a dog watching television. It saw the lights and images, but did not seem to comprehend their meaning or see any link to reality.
As the floodwaters rose, local officials in New Orleans ordered the city evacuated. They might as well have told their citizens to fly to the moon. How do you evacuate when you don't have a car? No hint of intelligent design in any of this. This was just survival of the richest.
By midweek a parade of Washington officials rushed before the cameras to urge patience. What good is patience to a mother who can't find food and water for a dehydrated child? Washington was coming out of an August vacation stupor and seemed unable to refocus on business or even think straight. Why else would Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert question aloud whether New Orleans should even be rebuilt? And when he was unable to get to Washington in time to vote on emergency aid funds, Hastert had an excuse only Washington could understand: He had to attend a fund-raiser back home.
Since 9/11, Washington has spent years and untold billions reorganizing the government to deal with crises brought on by possible terrorist attacks. If this is the result, we had better start over.
It's going to be hard to fix stuff, if the local cops keep shooting the repair guys.
Doesn't that article say that the cops shot and killed the guys who were shooting at the contractors? I don't read anywhere in that where cops were shooting at the contractors, anyway.
Doesn't that article say that the cops shot and killed the guys who were shooting at the contractors? I don't read anywhere in that where cops were shooting at the contractors, anyway.
I didn't see cops shooting contractors either...
The question now is who takes the credit for their last minute reprieve, the Christians or the Voodoo priestesses?
Me of course. You're welcome.
...or maybe....forgive me.
I didn't see cops shooting contractors either...
I just found the answer to this one...it seems that the report was issued in error originally, and it did say that cops had shot Corps employees. This was later corrected.
I knew Wolf wouldn't have botched something like that. She's a sharp cookie.
Me of course. You're welcome.
...or maybe....forgive me.
Yeah, we noticed that you seem to have put your kid in charge again while you were off on that junket to Alpha Centauri.
NG, the word amongst us celestial beings is that God is not racist, he's just out there. Waaaaay out there!
Doesn't that article say that the cops shot and killed the guys who were shooting at the contractors? I don't read anywhere in that where cops were shooting at the contractors, anyway.
That's what the article said originally ... I knew I should have cut and pasted the content as well as linked ...
I saw that on an Aussie paper site but I think everybodies backing away from that story now.
And yet some 50% of Americans still say George Jr was doing a good job. Where does this denial really start?
The denial starts with Y-O-U, tw. You just simply cannot believe in being fair to Republicans, so you rave and slobber and disgrace and degrade and embarrass yourself in a silly, misguided, makes-the-Left-look-dumb effort to place blame for everything even unto the Ice Ages on people to the right of MoveOn.org. That is why everyone to the right of MoveOn.org thinks you're not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. That would be approximately 280 million Americans, tw.
The denial starts with Y-O-U, tw.
This from someone who rewrites history to conform to his preordained political agenda? Your name would not be George Jr per chance? You did say no one expected the leeves to be breached? Sorry. I must have you confused with someone of lesser intelligence.
I heard this morning (Wednesday) on the radio "France Inter" that French rescuers were still not allowed to intervene in USA. So waiting, they're unloading trucks all day long and already foresee to come back to France.
I didn't know everything was all right.
There are lots of foreign aid shipments idling in ports, waiting for permission to come. Everything from water purifiers to portable cell phone towers.
The denial starts with Y-O-U, tw. You just simply cannot believe in being fair to Republicans, so you rave and slobber and disgrace and degrade and embarrass yourself in a silly, misguided, makes-the-Left-look-dumb effort to place blame for everything even unto the Ice Ages on people to the right of MoveOn.org. That is why everyone to the right of MoveOn.org thinks you're not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. That would be approximately 280 million Americans, tw.
Nah, I think denial is spelled "UG"! You really want to tell us the government did a brilliant job on this one? :lame:
Rewrite history? Ballocks and balderdash. I rewrite nothing, but merely read it better than you do. It's always going to be that way.
You did say no one expected the leeves to be breached? Sorry.
Sorry is right, you hemipygian stumblefuck, and you damned well should be sorry. I never said that and don't recall that anyone in this thread did.
:lame: Indeed when it comes to thought, you're beyond lame, tw. You are an amputee, scrabbling around on a four-wheel dolly.
Woo, now that's interesting! Noon Thursday, Fox News' McCowan just delivered herself of the line "Smoke on the Water" in the New Orleans flood coverage.
Sorry is right, you hemipygian stumblefuck, and you damned well should be sorry.
Insult and four letter words are the first symptoms of those who always know - facts be damned. The resulting frustration from having 'knowledge not based in reality' are insults and four letter words. Having said this, let us see how long it takes for Urbane Guerilla to post without insulting. Sounds like this could be an IQ test.
Hint for UG: Its very boring when one is trying to intelligently discuss or debate a topic to be constantly interrupted by a stream of invective and obscenities - rather like the 4 year old coming out in his pajamas and shreiking "Look at me!" to the adults at a cocktail party. :blunt:
Wow, UG knows a clever word for 'half-assed'. 6 years ago the Republicans were given the keys to the country. A significant minority of them have proceeded to drive it off of the cliff, and only a few have the moral decency to protest. Any attempt by non-Republicans to point this out is immediately shouted down with cries of 'partisanship'.
There are arguably worse places to be subjected to this type of dismal leadership. A back trail in a jungle in Vietnam or an alley in Iraq comes to mind. But at least there you have the company of fellow armed travellers and the satisfaction that if an officer does something truly stupid, he will probably be the first one they shoot at.
Unfortunately, Darwin's law works in reverse when it comes to politics and the people who are truly and dangerously incompetent are usually the least likely to be affected by it.
18 months later.
A friend of mine just got back from a mission trip to New Orleans to help gut a ruined, mold-infested house. 12 people on their team took two full days to get one house ripped down to studs and emptied.
She took lots of pictures. It blows my mind that a year and a half later, the place still looks like this:
The for sale signs were almost a sick joke. I don't know exactly what the spraypainted Xs mean, something to do with the mold and contamination, but almost all the houses had them.
Yes, that is a car under the house.
The red steps used to lead up to the house.
18 months later.
A friend of mine just got back from a mission trip to New Orleans to help gut a ruined, mold-infested house. 12 people on their team took two full days to get one house ripped down to studs and emptied.
She took lots of pictures. It blows my mind that a year and a half later, the place still looks like this:
I have thousands of these pictures. It breaks my heart *still*.
more tomorrow.
I have thousands of these pictures. It breaks my heart *still*.
How many feet below sea level are these houses? Neighborhoods that cannot relive and are below sea level should be rescued? This is time for a city to consolidate on safer land. Only then can parklands be cleared and created. Those pictures are symptoms when a town (at its highest levels) cannot make hard decisions.
New Orleans will be a smaller town. Many sections - especially the ninth ward - should never be rebuilt. The town should consolidate on safer and higher lands. Those pictures are imply indecision exists. It’s the indecision that is so demoralizing. Trash is only a symptom of a far greater disaster – indecision.
Jesus. I can't believe that's what it still looks like. New Orleans. World famous and world loved.
tw, I don't think anyone is really ever planning to rebuild in these areas. It's not indecision, but rather a refusal on everyone's part to pay for the cleanup.
I can't say that I'm sorry to see it go, a sin city with few contributions to the economy that it can not fulfill now.
a 'sin city'? who died and made you moral arbiter of all that's fucking holy?
I don't think anyone is really ever planning to rebuild in these areas. It's not indecision, but rather a refusal on everyone's part to pay for the cleanup.
No one is returning. The crime rate is so high that those that did come back are leaving. (my friends that currently live there, included) The city lost its charm.
If there was a God he should have wiped the place off the map and settled the issue for everyone. I feel bad for all those people but the reality is that the destruction of the place was going to happen sooner or later.
It's for the best that they are not going back. The work needed to clean up the place wouldn't be worth it getting ruined again.
If there was a god and it gave a crap about NO and it's people this would never have happened to begin with.
If there was a god and it gave a crap about NO and it's people this would never have happened to begin with.
Or that.
So how did busterb fare? is his story told elsewhere? I see he survived but has he had to rebuild or did he get off lightly?
So how did busterb fare? is his story told elsewhere? I see he survived but has he had to rebuild or did he get off lightly?
And now for another episode of .. As the Cellar Turns:earth:
I'm sure buster will respond, but if I remember correctly, he took roof damage and got screwed by the insurance companies and feds. His last post to his
hurricane thread was November.
tw, I don't think anyone is really ever planning to rebuild in these areas. It's not indecision, but rather a refusal on everyone's part to pay for the cleanup.
The cleanup cannot occur until decisions are made as to what will be done, who owns what, when the insurance company finally agrees to pay, etc. This is a classic example of 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Cleaning is the easy part. Making decisions has become the problem.
What needs to happen in New Orleans is also a legal nightmare - unless we institute eminent domain. Well that could happen if the town wanted to bring in casinos. But making plans for the cities future - that just is not happening.
Worse, is a city plan to let some people rebuild where they want, then later kick them out if not enough others arrive in that neighborhood. But again, just another reason that makes it not possible to institute the cleaning or rebuilding of so many homes. But again, the labor is trivial - tactical actions. The problem is lack of a strategic vision leaving everyone is a state of indecision as to even trash the building or save it.
Until clear objective are defined up to, well this is what happens. They still can’t decide whether insurance companies are responsible or not. Therefore no actions are possible.
So how did busterb fare? is his story told elsewhere? I see he survived but has he had to rebuild or did he get off lightly?
Thanks for asking. I settled with insurance co. Still working on house, painting, replacing cornices and other wood. Been nice weather, but help is hard to find. Only .39" rain this month. My age and weight, ladder work sucks. Also, I'd rather be beat in face with a buzzard gut than paint. bb
Thanks for asking. I settled with insurance co. Still working on house, painting, replacing cornices and other wood. Been nice weather, but help is hard to find. Only .39" rain this month. My age and weight, ladder work sucks. Also, I'd rather be beat in face with a buzzard gut than paint. bb
So what is your plan for the next storm season?
Plan? I guess just to be around for the next one.:litebulb:
A Gulf Coaster's Plan:
1. Have plenty of water, food, and survival supplies on hand: A generator, tarps, camp stove, fuel, etc. Always keep your car's gas tank at least half full between June 1st and November 30th.
2. Use all the cool survival stuff for camping and outdoor fun.
3. When the hurricane comes, RUN LIKE HELL.
You forgot:
4. Get a very detailed atlas of all your state's back country dirt roads so you can still run like hell when the major roads are clogged with traffic.
An excellent addition. I got stuck in evacuation traffic a couple years ago on I-75 and decided to skip over to US441. Traffic on that road was hell, too.
...because it was packed with people trying to get off the highway and on to the interstate. After that, the road was empty.
Back road evacuation is the way to go.
:thumbsup:
.
Back road evacuation is the way to go.
Colonoscopy due?
:lol:
Buster, thanks for the update. We're travelling through your state in August -is that too late to stop and help? You'll have to watch the sprogs, though...... :eek:
As someone said," Come on down." That stands for MOST dellars.
Welcome to the boars den. As Bruce stated, no horizontal surface will go uncluttered. Kick junk out of way and we'll put something in pot, on grill or in smoker. But August? Damn it's hot then. Not to worry, Ac.
bb
How many feet below sea level are these houses? Neighborhoods that cannot relive and are below sea level should be rescued? This is time for a city to consolidate on safer land. Only then can parklands be cleared and created. Those pictures are symptoms when a town (at its highest levels) cannot make hard decisions.
New Orleans will be a smaller town. Many sections - especially the ninth ward - should never be rebuilt. The town should consolidate on safer and higher lands. Those pictures are imply indecision exists. It’s the indecision that is so demoralizing. Trash is only a symptom of a far greater disaster – indecision.
I'll bet Clodfobble's pictures are neither New Orleans nor below sea level. It's the 'burbs, who's most powerful and best organized sector of government was the volunteer fire department, or the ladies auxiliary.
They have no money, no expertise, no more tax base and it would probably take a month to raise a quorum for a meeting. They are screwed.
I'll bet Clodfobble's pictures are neither New Orleans nor below sea level.
Supposedly they're from the Ninth Ward, but a friend took them so I don't know for sure. Definitely from the city of New Orleans though.
Bruce your right. It's not down town. Maybe Plaqueimines or St. Bernard parish. I don't presume to speak for anyone from LA. But I lived and worked from the west bank of N.O. for many years. Mostly in Belle Chasse, plaquimines parish. one road in and out.
I think can state. Nothing will be done till the grease gets to where the squeak is. No matter who the Gov. is, until the money gets in the right hands, nothing will happen
That was late had a power outage and lost so had to retype. bb
too much open land for 9th ward IMHO
Power outage? Those chicken shit American contractors or the insurgents?
This may be an unpopular opinion but I think this is a VERRRY good opertunity for the Gubment to step in and declair Emmenent Domain , get the corps of Enginers going , doze and BURN all that shit and build housing and schools and the such !
I meen Hell they have had a year + to do something , and there is STILL trash and the such , how long befor it turns into a health hazard for folks TRYING to rebuild ??
Just my 2 cents .
This may be an unpopular opinion but I think this is a VERRRY good opertunity for the Gubment to step in and declair Emmenent Domain , get the corps of Enginers going , doze and BURN all that shit and build housing and schools and the such !
I meen Hell they have had a year + to do something , and there is STILL trash and the such , how long befor it turns into a health hazard for folks TRYING to rebuild ??
Just my 2 cents .
Or they could just turn it into a big dump. Wait, I think it already is. Very few areas have a bunch of people moving back in droves.
There is still time to fill it all in before the next storm season starts. Really.
This is too true to be funny.
The next time you hear a politician use the Word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about Whether you want the 'politicians' spending
YOUR tax money.
A billion is a difficult number to comprehend, but one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into some perspective in
One of it's releases.
A billion seconds ago it was 1959.
A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.
A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age.
A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet.
A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.
While this thought is still fresh in our brain...
let's take a look at New Orleans ...
It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division.
Louisiana Senator, Mary Landrieu (D) is presently asking Congress for 250 BILLION DOLLARS to rebuild New Orleans.
Interesting number... What does it mean?
Well ... If you are one of the 484,674 residents of New Orleans
(every man, woman, and child) You each get $516,528.
Or... If you have one of the 188,251 homes in New Orleans, your home gets $1,329,787.
Or... If you are a family of four...Your family gets $2,066,012.
Washington, D. C HELLO!
Are all your calculators broken??
Building Permit Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax (Fed)
Federal Unemployment Tax (FU TA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Tax
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Service charge taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone20Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Tax
Vehicle License Registration T ax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
(And to think, we left British Rule to avoid so many taxes)
Why I'm a libertarian. Why you ought to be one too.
Or... If you are a family of four...Your family gets $2,066,012.
They'll need it, if they plan to live in a city with no infrastructure.
What does it cost to build a bridge? a sewer system? a water system? schools?
(And to think, we left British Rule to avoid so many taxes)
Wrong, it was taxation
without representation.
Why I'm a neo-con. Why you ought to be one too.
fixed
This is too true to be funny.
The next time you hear a politician use the Word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about Whether you want the 'politicians' spending
YOUR tax money.
A billion is a difficult number to comprehend, but one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into some perspective in
One of it's releases.
~ snip
A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.
While this thought is still fresh in our brain...
let's take a look at New Orleans ...
It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division.
Louisiana Senator, Mary Landrieu (D) is presently asking Congress for 250 BILLION DOLLARS to rebuild New Orleans.
Interesting number... What does it mean?
~ snip
Oh man.....this is still floating around on conservative message boards? :eek:
It is from 2005 and of course is not entirely accurate about the funding request. More than hallf of that $250b was not in federal spending but in temporary tax abatements, shared leased revenue from off-shore oil facilities, etc.
I think Congress ended up apprpriating more than $100b and I would hope and expect the same for any city/region devasted by a disaster the scale of Katrina.
I would hope that the leadership would realize a city built below sea level wasn't a good idea in the first place and they would instead pay to move them instead. Geez how much more of a hint do they need?
I think Congress ended up apprpriating more than $100b and I would hope and expect the same for any city/region devasted by a disaster the scale of Katrina.
WOW! Congress really did a great job of dealing with the issue didn't they? Not.
I would hope that the leadership would realize a city built below sea level wasn't a good idea in the first place and they would instead pay to move them instead. Geez how much more of a hint do they need?
Should we move all the folks out of California now....before the next devastating earthquake like the San Francisco earthquake of 1906?
New Orleans has survived for 300+ years, a unique American city in many respects...and having never experienced a "perfect storm" like Katrina, with the devastation compounded by a failure of the infrastructure due, primarily to a lack of funding.
I think your solution is a bit heavy handed.
WOW! Congress really did a great job of dealing with the issue didn't they? Not.
IMO, the appropriations of the Republican Congress in 05 and 06 (and spread out over a period of 4+ years) were reasonable, it not a bit slow, much like the FEMA response (as well as the state/local response).
So why do you think Congress didnt do such a great job? Or is it the Democrats that you want to blame?
I think your solution is a bit heavy handed.
I'm amazed to be saying it, but I agree with classicman. There's no point relocating people who are living in perfectly good houses, but once the place goes underwater, it's is the height of foolishness to pay them to rebuild houses below sea level again. The place is a bowl surrounded by water on three sides. It relies on pumps to keep floodwater out, and when there is a storm, the electricity to those pumps is lost. It's just about the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
If people want to live in the flood zone, that's fine. It's a free country. But the government shouldn't be giving them one nickle to do it, and the insurance companies should set their rates at an appropriate level to take into account the extreme risks they are taking on.
But then I also think that people shouldn't be able to get insurance for houses on barrier islands. Or at a minimum, they should have rates that reflect the increased risk there.
California is not a good example, because construction standards can make a house able to withstand earthquake damage.
Where are you guys proposing these 450,000 people, in the city alone, relocate to?
Are there houses in your neighborhoods in which they could reside?
We get tornados from time to time. I suppose I can live here and have insurance on my place because hey, there's a chance a tornado might miss you. I'm sure there's a table or chart somewhere pertaining to the risk I take living...well, anywhere.
edit: I just realized the insurance on my moon dome is going to be OUTRAGEOUS! :)
....California is not a good example, because construction standards can make a house able to withstand earthquake damage.
Construction standards can make levees able to withstand massive flooding.
The difference is that it is private funding for individual housing/commercial construction and public funding for the levees.
Where are you guys proposing these 450,000 people, in the city alone, relocate to?
If you relocate them all to Boenher's district, you could probably vote him out of office! :D
Where are you guys proposing these 450,000 people, in the city alone, relocate to?
Are there houses in your neighborhoods in which they could reside?
Yes. There are a couple houses on the market here. Room for a couple families to buy. I understand there are lots of houses for sale in Detroit and the surrounding area.
I feel for them that they lost their homes. But once you lose a home, it's gone. You can't get it back. As long as you are moving into a new home, why not a new home in a place that doesn't flood so easily?
Yeah, I know what you're saying. I'm thinking of people who have always lived there, whose families have always lived there...it just seems like a huge uproot and undertaking, as a suggestion.
If, for some reason, Ohio wasn't "safe" anymore (I say that while laughing!) where would I go. What region of the country would best suit my needs, after being this Ohio person all my life, decended from people who were here all their lives.
Well, besides the moon or the Unabomber cabin? ;)
Construction standards can make levees able to withstand massive flooding.
But you still need the pumps to pump out the rainwater. And the pumps fail whenever there is a massive storm.
Also, what's the point of building a levee to protect inferior real estate locations, when there are plenty of places in the country that are above sea level? This isn't the Netherlands. We live in the US. There's lots of land. Let's live on land that doesn't flood when it rains.
But you still need the pumps to pump out the rainwater. And the pumps fail whenever there is a massive storm.
Also, what's the point of building a levee to protect inferior real estate locations, when there are plenty of places in the country that are above sea level? This isn't the Netherlands. We live in the US. There's lots of land. Let's live on land that doesn't flood when it rains.
If the flooding that was at Katrina levels was on a regular reoccurring basis, I would agree with you.
But that is not the case. This was the perfect storm...once in hundreds of years....compounded by a failure of the infrastructure due to lack of attention and funding.
Sure there's lots of land in the US....there are also flood plains on both coasts, earthquake zones, tornado alley, dust bowls....
So where do you get workers for the shrimping industry or the rice industry on the gulf coast or do we abandon those industries as well? I dont think there is much demand for shrimpers in Detroit.
You live in an area all your life. You have kids, you have aunts and uncles, you have parents, you have neighbors. You know the guy at the grocery store and you pray for his sick wife. You run into old school teachers from time to time. Your "living there" constitutes much more than just where you physically reside. It's a part of you.
Sure, people move away all the time. They don't move their entire lives, and the people they've known and the places they've been: for some this seems it would be pretty tough to do, to start all over somewhere else.
I'd gladly move from here, but there are things that keep me here: my family, my friends, the networks I've built as a result of living here my entire life. I could do it, I'm an adventurous sort, but I know there are people who would rather expire than leave everything they know.
To say "live elsewhere" to a huge population doesn't seem reasonable or feasible. Yes, there was a devastating weather catastrophe. As Redux pointed out, there are ways to prevent so much devastation. It's not like it's happening every other year.
I'm fine with them staying there, if that's their choice. But they should pay for it. If they expect me to bail them out, then they need to show some brains about it. Don't build a house in a swamp surrounded by water in a hurricane zone. Helping them is just enabling them. Like lending money to a gambler.
Not everyone has the finances.
I would hope that the leadership would realize a city built below sea level wasn't a good idea in the first place and they would instead pay to move them instead. Geez how much more of a hint do they need?
That attitude and resulting corrections had been ongoing in the 1990s. From
You're Doing a Heck of Job Brownie:
Furthermore, FEMA is about avoiding damage before that damage can occur. A most famous case is Evansville and Graphton IL where FEMA moved the towns. Other lesser know examples include FEMA's campaign to convince AL homeowners in flood-prone Elba area to sell their homes and relocate. FEMA in the 1990s demonstrated how it is better to solve problems before they happen - which is a well proven William Deming concept.
Such programs were ongoing in CT, DE, CO, IL, MA, MN, MS, MI, MO, ND, SD, WY, UT, TX, and PA when something happened.
These 'mitigation activities' by FEMA were terminated in about 2001 - about the same time that professional disaster managers were being replaced by political appointees.
Due to massive flooding, Graphton IL was moved. Two years later, another Mississippi River flood washed over the same land. But this time, the bottleneck (in part created by dikes in St Louis) did not wash through Graphton. FEMA had moved the town uphill - solved a problem before it happens.
There is no reason to rebuild New Orleans' Ninth ward. Other parts of New Orleans are fine. But it makes no sense to rebuild on land that is already ten feet below sea level - and dropping due to underlying geology.
Nobody is suggesting the Gulf coast should be evacuated. Or that New Orleans should be eliminated. Chantilly Ridge in New Orleans is perfectly safe. But when does it make sense to house a hundred thousand people on land that will always be flooded at least ten feet by a simple category three hurricane? Category Three is what those massive dikes and levees were designed to withstand. And Katrina hit New Orleans as a category three in a region that category threes are too common.
View what happened to St Bernard's Parish. That wave overwhelmed 20 foot dikes. Then traveled a mile plus across marsh land. Then washed out almost all buildings not designed for such flooding. So government should pay to rebuild inferior buildings. Well, St Bernard's Parish is not even at same risk that New Orleans's Ninth Ward is. There is no reason for New Orleans' Ninth Ward to be rebuilt. Want to live in St Bernard's Parish? Then building codes should require expensive structures that can withstand that only category three hurricanes and not yet seen category four hurricane.
Where is the 'theys'? New Orleans Ninth Ward is not same as other parts of New Orleans. And yet the discuss has lumped everyone on the Gulf coast as same. Katrina was not the massive Category Five that it also was. It was only a Category Three made so much worse by, well, where do 85% of all problems originate?
(raises hand) oooh oooh oooh
Top management?
;)
Clarification:
Category three hurricane, category five storm surge
(raises hand) oooh oooh oooh
Top management?
;)
MBA's? :rolleyes:
Where are you guys proposing these 450,000 people, in the city alone, relocate to?
Are there houses in your neighborhoods in which they could reside?
Yup - There are TONS of homes all over the country where they could relocate to. Heck Shaw, It would be A LOT cheaper to move them than rebuild and TRY to protect that which has failed repeatedly. As tw pointed out, this wouldn't be the first time this would have happened either. Some of that are is just really uninhabitable and should remain that way.
Why don't you read my other posts for a reason other than "there are a lot of places to live." I understand there is a lot of land. read my posts. kthx
I also understand that I doubt a lot of these povery-stricken folk could afford or would be welcome in some of your hoity-toity McMansionvilles in which some of you reside.
Also, I am very happy that you and tw agreed on something. I was thinking something about dogs and cats. ;)
It is all about choice. They choose to stay. They will have to start over again. So where is all that wasted money? All those RV's? I just can't see continuing to throw money at a place that is in such great jepordy. Any coastal city is at risk. Few if any are below sea level.
Why don't you read my other posts for a reason other than "there are a lot of places to live." I understand there is a lot of land. read my posts. kthx
I read all your posts :mad2:
Well, if you read and understood my posts (not saying you have to agree, but that you got the gist of my thoughts on the subject) then you should know that the response "there're all kinds of houses all over the place" did not address what the hell I was talking about.
Are you asking if I disagree that it isn't fair or it'll be hard or or or or.... perhaps I didn't mention that part cuz there wasn't any disagreement there.
Still - Whatever! The parts of the fucking city that are underwater should be given back to mother earth who rightfully reclaimed them with Katrina.
Rebuild safely nearby or go all the way to friggin Alaska - doesn't matter to me.
I got your point - but its the same as those whose homes burn repeatedly in forest fires.
STOP TRYING TO LIVE THERE.
Just my opinion, unpopular as it is. I still get to type it. Pbbbblllllt
I think it's beautiful that tw and classicman are in agreement.
We should all pause to remember this moment.
I know! I mean, at first you agreed with c-man...then the impossible happened: tw and c-man in perfect harmony.
I'm a little choked up.
:)
I'm speechless - frankly I'm starting to consider this whole Mayan end-of-world shit now...:unsure:
12 December 2012 or something like that. Hey, maybe should have an EOTW party.
I know! I mean, at first you agreed with c-man...then the impossible happened: tw and c-man in perfect harmony.
I'm a little choked up.
:)
I'll bet UG will find a way to disagree with all of them (in fact with everybody) because - you know what's coming - they don't understand because they're not as smart as he is.