Have gas prices affected you?
Has/will the increase in gas prices affect your driving behavior?
Gas prices have really gone up around here.
I'm more conscious about checking the air pressure in my tires, no more full car loads of people (I own a 4 door), and downshifting to slow down is a no-no.
So glad I drive stick civic :D
Its not affecting me either. The guy who pumped my septic tank today is another matter. His fuel bill has increased a shocking amount but he hasn't passed on the cost to his clints yet, hoping things'll shift.
It is TOTALLY affecting me! Gas here is 2.70/gal., which is, the highest EVER. Last summer the highest I paid was 2.13/gal. and I thought that was outrageous. Now, it's unreal. I do NOT drive unless I MUST. Gas prices are killing volunteer organizations...think about that...mom and pop denied Meals on Wheels due to ever higher gas prices and NObody is reimbursing---they all say, "suck it up"---a lot of us can't do that.
Yes, prices have gone up around me. So far, there has been no impact on my lifestyle. We don't drive that much, and we have a pretty fuel efficient car. Geo Prizm.
One of my buddies in Sweden told me the other day when we were talking about gas prices that he just laughs when Americans complain about gas prices. They're easily double what we pay
It's affected me some. I've gone literally one week on less than a quarter tank of gas because I dread paying to fill it. Granted I live literally 4 minutes from work so I haven't been suffering too much. Or maybe the money is just an excuse to put off a chore that I've always hated. Probably the latter.
(identical threads merged)
I chose two months ago to get a larger, gas guzzlin' vehicle. It's irritating that the new tank is larger than the old one, at the same time prices are up, so while I used to fill for $20 I now fill for $50. It's a jarring experience. But I don't really drive that much overall, so for me the effect is still rather small.
Gas here is currently $1.139 a litre.
That's $4.31 a gallon for all you Yanks.
it's pretty painful to my wallet. the airport is 45 minutes away from my house so i'm limiting my outings out there to saturday and on an as needed basis for sunday. the other day it cost almost $60 to fill my truck. i'm thinking about buying a motorcycle to help the situation.
I try to drive less, but if i drove less than I do now, I would go absolutely stir crazy... MUST LEAVE THE HOUSE. I do try to take the bus when I can or have an extra $2. I am hopefully getting a bike soon so I don't have to drive the car anywhere, I can just ride. I prefer it that way.
I'm pretty stoked that I got rid of my SUV for a SAAB about 4 months back. The SAAB is getting kick-ass mileage. My commute is 46 miles per day, so I go through some gas, I tell ya, but BART and a bus would cost more. Public transportation sucks in Northern California, and in the East Bay in particular.
My 1999 Explorer 4x4 automatic gets approximately 15-16 mpg. These prices are *killing* me. It costs me just about $44.00 to fill my tank completely, and I get about 300 miles per tank. I drove a minimum of 40 miles round trip to work each day, and that wouldn't be so bad, except that I also drive 10 miles minimum per day on work business (reimbursed at a rate of .405 per mile). My outside activities tack at least another 40 miles per day onto my driving on average, so at 90 miles per day, a tank of gas lasts me 3 days and change. That is about 10 tanksful per month, or over $400.00 at present. We have two other cars.
Somewhere, some of Dubya's pals are lighting Cuban cigars with $100 bills, and laughing their asses off at what a bunch of chumps we all are.
I've only been driving for a little over three years, and gas has gone up more than $1.30 in that time. ($1.19 was high right after I started driving. Then it spiked to $1.30 and stayed around there for quite a while.) About $0.50 of that increase has happened in the last month. I just got gas a few days ago at $2.39 (and the next day it went up to $2.49). The last time I'd gotten gas, it was $2.09. The fill-up before that was at $1.99. I don't know, but every time it jumps here, it seems like it's by 10 cents. I'm sure it's gone up to $2.59 by now and I just don't know about it.
No one around me seems too concerned, but I'm a full-time student and I only work part-time over the holidays. So, it costing more than $25 to fill my 11 gal tank is a lot to me. At least I traded in my 17mpg truck two years ago for a 30-32mpg car though. I live that far from university though, so if gas goes up much more, I won't be coming home on every weekend as I have in the past.
I live in a rural area, so there isn't any public transportation, and biking/walking isn't an option. It's 7 miles to the house of the friend who lives nearest to me. And it's 10 miles just to get into "town" and another 10 to get to the city, which is of course where everything is.
In the past year:
--Gas has gone up 60 cents for me (it was around $2/gal a year ago in Philly...it's currently $2.589 in St. Louis)
--I have a new car (2003 Malibu) that is not as fuel-efficient as my old cars (1994 Escort, 1995 Metro)
--I've gotten a delivery job
I put out about $180-200/month in fuel costs. A year ago, I was probably spending about $60-80/month. But I'm not complaining...it's the price I pay to do what I do. I don't like the prices, but we're still not paying as much as we were in 1983. *shrugs*
...but we're still not paying as much as we were in 1983.
You beat me to it, syc. People who obsess over gas prices drive me nuts. I have a friend who will drive five miles out of her way to save $0.15 a gallon. Even if she
weren't driving any further for that gas, she's only saving $4.50 per fill-up, or $27 a month if she fills up every 5 days. That's less than one meal at a restaurant, or one-fifth of their monthly cable bill.
Gas prices are the epitome of "penny-wise, pound-foolish" to me. I don't even pay attention to the price, ever. It is what it is. McDonald's costs more now than it did a year ago too; it's called inflation. If you need to save money, most people have plenty of other places they could cut back on.
(And not to turn this into a political argument, but "Gas prices are too high!" and "No blood for oil!" are mutually exclusive. You can't bitch about both.)[/threadjack]
I took a V8 Titan this time around for a demo. 60 miles ONE way to work. $52 last night to fill it. With a range of approx 340 miles, that's about 5 1/2 trips to or from work. I'll fill it again Saturday on the way in.
Weep for me.
I'll be taking a 6 speed Sentra SER next time to average out the cost.
what, I won't!?
A reminder...well two reminders. :biggrin:
1- the fuel in your tank not only feeds the engine it's a coolant for the electric fuel pump that's also in the tank. So try not to let the tank get too low, especially in hot weather.
2- You can get gas in Iraq for 10 or 20 cents a gallon. Of course we're buying it in Kuwait for much more and trucking it in at a cost of $millions every month.
Well, here's my vast age showing, but I remember when gas was maybe .35 cents a gallon. Granted, everything else was cheaper back then too, but there's still no way around the fact that gas prices are taking a higher percentage of our money than they used to.
I miss my old Explorer, but it was a gas hog (Patrick, you have my sympathy). My little Toyota RAV that I now drive gets easily double the mileage of the Explorer, thank God!
At $2.00/gal I could buy a week's worth of gas for $30. Prices in my town have now gone up to about $2.70/gal, so I now pay $40.50. That's an extra $42.00 a month. If you are on a tight budget, that $42.00 extra hurts.
People are complaining about gas prices in the U.S. when it is generally three times higher in Europe to the gallon. But they get along fine, don't they? I really hope gas prices continue to rise, even exponentially, because that will finally shock this country into being more enviromentally concious/thoughtful.
2.70 a gallon here as well, also doesn't seem to reduce driving people.
People are complaining about gas prices in the U.S. when it is generally three times higher in Europe to the gallon. But they get along fine, don't they?
In Europe they have this invention called efficient systems of mass transportation. A lot of 'em use this object of transportation called the "train." Amazing invention that. When I visit my family in Switzerland, the ones who live in the city have electric street cars that stop practically at their doorsteps and run 24/7. The street cars have nice direct routes to the train station. The trains take off ever 10 minutes for everywhere in Switzerland and the rest of Europe that you can imagine, and places that you can't imagine either.
Stuff like that in the US? That will be the day!
One of my buddies in Sweden told me the other day when we were talking about gas prices that he just laughs when Americans complain about gas prices. They're easily double what we pay
I'm happy he wins that contest. He can trump me on gas prices. I Hope he pays 10 times what I pay and enjoys the bragging rights. Crap, 100 times would work for me.
I recently changed jobs. My new job is less than 5 miles from my house; I fuel up once every 2 weeks (or less if I travel little on weekends) vs. twice a week for the old place of employment.
Even with high prices, my fuel costs no longer take a considerable chunk of my after-tax pay.
the thing i hate most about gasoline is that it only has one use... you can't eat it, you can't drink it. I hate paying for things that don't have dual use. Even toilet paper has multiple functions... not just wiping your rear.
Anybody else heard about those guys who are rigging up hybrid cars with a bunch more batteries for +-$6,000, getting an estimated 250 mpg in the process? I can't imagine how paranoid EMT's would be around a wreck with that much juice goin through it.
Yes, I'm really bummed out I used to be able to fill the truck for 50,000Rp = $5.25 but gas here has soared up to 2500Rp/litre = $1.05 a US gallon.
Now it cost's $9.50 for a fillup. I'm going diesel it's cheaper:lol:
Anybody else heard about those guys who are rigging up hybrid cars with a bunch more batteries for +-$6,000, getting an estimated 250 mpg in the process? I can't imagine how paranoid EMT's would be around a wreck with that much juice goin through it.
There are apparently already protocols in place for cutting hybrid cars to bits with the jaws of life and that really cool big radial saw ...
Originally I'd heard the hybrids were quite dangerous to EMTs, but more recent information seems to indicate that's not entirely the case. If I hear anything further (the EMT who is a firefighter should be in work tomorrow) I'll let you guys know.
I have a car that gets around 18/gallon. While I admit that I seriously miss my 32 MPG sportscar, I am still only filling up two or three times per month. Put it on the gas co. card, throw money at it once a month ... minor, not major impact at this point.
Apparently the extra battery guys are just getting extra non-gas miles in order to get to 250 MPG. They plug in at the end of their trip.
So how long do they have to drive it before the recoop the extra $6K for the extra batteries???
Guess that depends on the gas prices in the particular area, and how far/what kind of driving is done. I wonder how all that extra weight affects mileage/performance during regular (non electric) engine operation, the wear on your tires, your brakes, suspension, etc. Car batteries aren't light.
Prices aren't just affecting our driving.
I just got my light bill.
Actual usage: $65
Fuel Adjustment: $75
I want to get one of those bio-diesel cars. There was something in National Geographic about it, it's around 60-80 MPG and it costs about 8 dollars to fill up the car's tank for a month.
Has/will the increase in gas prices affect your driving behavior?
Of course not. One need only learn from history. Gas had to go to about $7 per gallon in the late 1970s before people actually changed behaviour.
Meanwhile, people are so foolish as to complain and yet not do anything about it. There is good reason why the US government could give GM something like $100 million in 1994 to build a hybrid - and GM still does not have one 11 years later. Price of gasoline is still quite normal. However too many assumed gasoline at the lowest price levels ever (in the 1980s and early 1990s) is normal. Gasoline in 1970 was about $1.75 per gallon. Any yet only a few years ago, people were complaining when the price was $1.40 per gallon. More examples of silly emotion. Behavior did not change because their complaint had no basis in reality.
Gasoline is still quite cheap. One need only learn from the numbers.
Meanwhile those who think they are saving money at Wawa are again lying to themselves. Gasoline that provides less MPG is not cheaper.
What is the first thing anyone does if they are really concerned about the price of gas? Record every gallon and every mile. Start by learning what is and is not really more expensive; what is and is not really working. Most are not doing this because gasoline is still so cheap.
Surprised there's no UK contribution so far. Thanks to our tax regime we currently are paying £0.90/US$1.62 per LITRE - as there are 3.7854 litres per US Gallon that's equivalent to $6.13 per US gallon. Needless to say I cycle a bit more!
Of course not. One need only learn from history. Gas had to go to about $7 per gallon in the late 1970s before people actually changed behaviour.
Are you factoring in the fines for buying on an "odd" day when you were an "even"?
$7?
Not even during that month where the gas station reset the pumps for liters instead of gallons because that was the only way they could get the counter to work right (price had exceeded .999) did we pay $7/gallon.
I don't like the prices, but we're still not paying as much as we were in 1983. *shrugs*
Some of us weren't even alive in 1983!
Is it an excuse to act like one's own situation is the worst it could possibly be and/or ever has been? No. I don't pretend that gas is at its highest ever. I just say that it's the highest it has been in my life.
Of course, I didn't start paying attention to gas prices until my teens, so it has never been under $1 as far as I can recall. So at least that means it has gone up "less" for me than other people. I have $1.19 (the first "high" price I can recall from my senior year) to hold onto; other people have $0.35.
[QUOTE=Neurotica]Some of us weren't even alive in 1983![QUOTE]
The important people were.
Awww now, we already have enough of an inferiority complex. We don't need any help from upper generations.
I want to get one of those bio-diesel cars. There was something in National Geographic about it, it's around 60-80 MPG and it costs about 8 dollars to fill up the car's tank for a month.
What they probably
didn't tell you is how much it really costs to produce bio deisel and the associated subsidies and such.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biodiesel/I really hope gas prices continue to rise, even exponentially, because that will finally shock this country into being more enviromentally concious/thoughtful.
I want to get one of those bio-diesel cars. There was something in National Geographic about it, it's around 60-80 MPG and it costs about 8 dollars to fill up the car's tank for a month.
You've got a lot to learn about human nature and things not always being what they seem. On the up side you've chosen a good place to learn by being here....stick around. :biggrin:
What they probably didn't tell you is how much it really costs to produce bio deisel and the associated subsidies and such.
Forget bio-diesel - hydrogen fuel cell technology is advancing, with eco-friendly production of
hydrogen from ethanol cost-effectively (derived from sugar beet) - if you want proof then take a look at
this prototype bike - ENV (spec available via link to pdf) - looks reasonably interesting.....
Not even during that month where the gas station reset the pumps for liters instead of gallons because that was the only way they could get the counter to work right (price had exceeded .999) did we pay $7/gallon.
Any historical price provided without correction for inflation is how the propagandists 'lie by telling half truths'. In 2005 dollars, gasoline in the late 1970s was about $7 per gallon. Historically, gasoline prices today are not excessive.
Price for gasoline has simply gone back to historically normal prices. Unfortunately, too many don't consider inflation so they can appease their emotional reactions.
Forget bio-diesel - hydrogen fuel cell technology is advancing, with eco-friendly production of hydrogen from ethanol cost-effectively
As was posted previously, fundamental science demonstrates that hydrogen as a fuel is not possible. Hydrogen has too little energy per pound and requires too much energy to deliver. Basic science numbers demonstrate that hydorgen as a fuel would result in something like 80% loss of energy by the time that fuel gets to the vehicle.
Curious that GM management is pushing hydrogen since GM top management is devoid of technical competance. The realities of science says hydrogen is a lousy fuel for too many reasons. But then GM also created the EV-1. Then outright lies about its numbers such as range. The real world range for EV-1 (the all electric car) was about 60 miles. GM would not even let EV-1 designers use anything but lead acid batteries because GM did not make batteries of other technologies. This is the same GM that says hydrogen is the future? "Fool me once- shame on you. Fool me tens of times ... at what point do I finally get it?"
Hydrogen has other interesting and practical applications. Batteries based upon hydrogen look particularly promising. No other fuel has the energy per pound numbers that petroleum provides. Those numbers damn hydrogen as a totally impractical fuel. Again, seek that recent and previous discussion here about hydrogen.
Any historical price provided without correction for inflation is how the propagandists 'lie by telling half truths'. In 2005 dollars, gasoline in the late 1970s was about $7 per gallon. Historically, gasoline prices today are not excessive.
Price for gasoline has simply gone back to historically normal prices. Unfortunately, too many don't consider inflation so they can appease their emotional reactions.
Nice try, tw, but no cigar:
Originally I'd heard the hybrids were quite dangerous to EMTs, but more recent information seems to indicate that's not entirely the case. If I hear anything further (the EMT who is a firefighter should be in work tomorrow) I'll let you guys know.
Okay, so I talked to the fireman.
They treat hybrids
exactly the same as they do any other car.
They cut the battery cables and then they hack it to pieces.
in an accadent it is ALWAYS wise to chop the battery leads , DE-ENERGIZE that Mother Fucker !!!! A EMT told me that YEARS ago , and explained that if you de- energize the car it is that much less likely to catch on fire , it made sence to me .
I have done this more than I care to relate !!!!!
I filled up my work truck today , it was running on fumes , 40 gallon tank , $100 + fillup !!
Thank GOD(S) for the company gas card !!!!!!
As was posted previously, fundamental science demonstrates that hydrogen as a fuel is not possible.
Will check out the thread you mention, but will also take the risky route of replying first.
Situations change over time. Did you check the links I gave? When there is motivation to do so money gets invested to research and improve. Wars generally do that, but so can extreme eceonomic conditions - North Sea oil wouldn't have happened without the '73 oil crisis which caused the cost of deep-sea wells/drilling to become viable. The structures needed to support this activity were then developed as the cost justified it.
There are lots of other examples like IBM mainframes of the 70's (that required their own dedicated rooms to operate) to PDAs of the 90's. Had you been around in the 70's (were you?) there is no way that you would have agreed that a computer with the same processing power would be available hand-held size within 20 years.
The current developments with the ENV bike (range 100 miles currently and a top speed of 50mph - inventors say this will/can increase), the portable fuel cell pack that goes with it, the hydrogen production unit that is no bigger than a shoe box and also the development of ethanol production from sugar beet, corn, wheat, barley and other crops seem to suggest that this is now heading in the right direction and that the advances mentioned are providing the kick-start needed. And let's not forget the bike is a British invention (is there a way to attach music to these posts - a bit of Elgar might fit nicely at this point?)
Also have a look at
this article about a heat and compression driven process plant (damnation - it's American) that has been built and that will turn various items (like old computers and turkey remains) into fuel. Process claims to streamline and accelerate the same processes that our planet takes to produce coal to permit old waste/rubbish to be converted in hours rather than millions of years. At last, a useful home for all those Thanksgiving dinner leftovers!
Will search out earlier Hydrogen discussion now - can you point me in the right direction?
I filled up my work truck today , it was running on fumes , 40 gallon tank , $100 + fillup !!
$100?? I'm paying equivalent of $100 every time I fill up my Audi A4 with 15 gallons here in good old Blighty (all right, I do get a bit more than 8 to the gallon - nearer 30, but it still smarts!)
So, future Harleys wil say po-tat-o, po-tat-o when they need fuel? :lol:
So, future Harleys wil say po-tat-o, po-tat-o when they need fuel? :lol:
Harleys say po-tarht-o, Triumphs say Po-tayt-o.
BTW I work in the area of the shipping market that moves vegoils and chems in bulk. The amount of ethanol moving now is well on the increase. Palm oils of the quality to create bio-fuels are also going the same way. As usual when the market gets over excited about a new use for its commodities, it over-reacts, as was the case last winter, and so there are still plenty of stocks of the stuff in north west Europe storage (sourced mainly from S.America and Far East for Palm oils). Reports of heavy government investment in Europe and the States in all such areas of alternative energy probably has a lot to do with the bubble that's arisen
The higher gas costs here in Cincinnati have my attention but only becuase of the effect that they have on the majority of people here.
For me personally it's just been another nudge to start riding my bike again and the benefits have been both quickly realized and worth the extra effort.
I normally make my 10 mile round trip ride to work and back 3-5 times a week and if the weather is good, an extra 10 or 20 miles on the weekend.
For all practical purposes of description, I sit in a cold dark office staring at a computer screen during the day for 8-11 hours....then come home to a cold dark room and sit in front of a computer for a few hours after that. If there is someone that could use a little time unplugged, that would be me. I dont watch TV and would prefer not to **ever** have to go outdoors. :blush:
It's not easy getting the extra BS around to bike to work in the morning and dealing with the weather and the traffic. It has certainly improved my overall outlook though and now I can feel the difference through the day when I drive the car to work.
The truth is that I have not seen many people riding their bikes around instead of driving, and that would include the people at work with high end bikes even though they dont live far away. There is a man in our department that regularly goes to the bike trails after work and on the weekends to pedal away 50-100 miles at a time. He also drives a SRV. I don't get it. I suppose it's just too much of a nerd alarm that one is actually riding a bike to work instead of driving.
I guess I just dont give a crap about being cool and see all the benefits of saving gas money to spend it on pizza. :)
snip~~regularly goes to the bike trails after work and on the weekends to pedal away 50-100 miles at a time. He also drives a SRV. I don't get it.~~snip
Because riding a bike on the street is dangerous. :eyebrow:
That may be. But I promise not to hurt any of the other drivers with my .44 unless they are threatening my life. :)
There's the solution to the high price of fuel, Slang. Drive the car, take the .44 to the station. Tell 'em its the S&W discount... :worried:
Good idea Elspode. When I escape and take over your country, your life will not only be spared but you shall be installed as the Minister of Spiritual music. :gift:
Might I suggest another solution? Invade a country that has plenty of untapped oil and control it's reserves while pretending to free it's people from a nice patient, loving family man like me.
That should just about solve entire problem.
Actually, last I checked, Slang is not a fan of S&W due to their government pandering.
Saddam, did you ever read the article about the soldiers guarding you in prison in GQ magazine this past.. June or July I think? Aside from the murderous side of you, you would seem like a cool guy.
Aside from the murderous side of you, you would seem like a cool guy.
Let me guess. You vote Dem.
Actually, yes. I can be a very cool guy. Without power I can be very humble and polite, yes.
Maybe we could start a write in campaign for Pres in 08. There are so many people there in the states that support or sympathize with my cause, it might be worth running as a write in.
I love LA, I really do, but this is maybe my least favorite part. I am envious of those of you who have options.
There is no real public transit in LA. I have a metro station 1/4 mile from my house, but I've been able to use it about twice in the past year. It just doesn't go anywhere that people go.
Riding a bike isn't an option, for obvious reasons. Riding 30 miles with a Fender Rhodes bungee strapped to the back of a bike might be a great mental picture, but that's about it.
Carpooling is rarely an option. LA isn't like most urban centers, where commerce and industry are centrally located, and residences are set in outlying areas. The sprawling decentralized layout of the southland means that there is very little chance of finding someone who lives within 5 miles of you, and works within 5 miles of your work.
Compound that with the fact that property values have jumped so high, that any new freeway expansion becomes obscenely expensive just to buy the neighboring properties at market value. They are planning on expanding the 23 freeway, a small little 9 mile stretch through a residential community just west of the Valley, and the average cost of the homes that they're going to have to purchase is 1.2 million. Now add up how much 9 miles of right-of-way is going to cost. Imagine trying to expand the 101 through Woodland Hills or Studio City.
I honestly don't know what the way forward looks like for LA. The pressures keep building, to the point where the average person commutes 40 miles a day from the house she can afford to the job that pays decently, and spends 2-3 hours in the car to get there.
I just find it interesting that in this time and age of technological advances that no one can come up with a valid, inexpesive, safe, clean alternative fuel. I mean, come on, why does the fuel we need to use have to include oil as a main ingredient? We can make synthetic oil, synthetic fabrics, so is synthetic fossil fuels really a pipe dream? True, there are alternative fuels such as alcohol, CNG, propane, even electric (although this isn't really a good alternative becuause you still need to generate the electricity to put into the cars which results in putting more strain on the power generators), there's got to be better sources of fuel.
Currently, i can only put $4.00-$6.00 in the tank at a time. I've no stash of money anywhere and I'm counting my nickles. It's really giving me a headache.
Let me guess. You vote Dem.
Actually, yes. I can be a very cool guy. Without power I can be very humble and polite, yes.
Maybe we could start a write in campaign for Pres in 08. There are so many people there in the states that support or sympathize with my cause, it might be worth running as a write in.
As long as we don't run Dem, I don't vote Dem ;)
I just find it interesting that in this time and age of technological advances that no one can come up with a valid, inexpesive, safe, clean alternative fuel. I mean, come on, why does the fuel we need to use have to include oil as a main ingredient?
Physics. Specifically, conservation of energy. Anything we use as fuel has to have potential energy. Synthesizing hydrocarbons is certainly possible, but it takes energy to synthesize them -- more than can be released by burning them. We've got fairly few energy sources available
1) Direct solar. Lousy for vehicles, currently very inefficient for anything else. Photovoltaic solar cells can barely produce enough energy over their lifetime to account for the energy it takes to manufacture it. Large-scale solar plants attract the ire of environmentalists.
2) Biofuels. They work, but they're available only on a vastly smaller scale than crude. And to produce more means to produce less food. Some of them (ethanol in particular) take more energy to grow and extract than released when burning, so are useless as a primary fuel.
3) Nukular. Err, nuclear. Lousy for vehicles. Politically impossible. Environmentalists hate it. And there still is that waste issue.
4) Hydro. Pretty much tapped out, not directly usable for vehicles, and environmentalists hate it.
5) Geothermal. Very few places it can be practically tapped, not directly usable for vehicles. Environmentalists hate it.
6) Geophysical, e.g. tidal powered. Again, few places it can be practically tapped, not directly usable for vehicles, and environmentalists hate it.
7) Good old fossil fuels -- conventionally, solar energy stored in prehistoric times. An alternate theory holds that oil is left over from the formation of the solar system. Environmentalists hate them too (except natural gas, sometimes), but they're too firmly established for those concerns to kill them.
If you want something else usable as a fuel, you either need to find some other common substance with a lot of potential energy stored in it chemically, or figure a way to extract power from some available source so cheaply that it makes sense to synthesize a fuel rather than use refined oil.
Physics. Specifically, conservation of energy. Anything we use as fuel has to have potential energy. Synthesizing hydrocarbons is certainly possible, but it takes energy to synthesize them -- more than can be released by burning them. We've got fairly few energy sources available
1) Direct solar. Lousy for vehicles, currently very inefficient for anything else. Photovoltaic solar cells can barely produce enough energy over their lifetime to account for the energy it takes to manufacture it. Large-scale solar plants attract the ire of environmentalists.
2) Biofuels. They work, but they're available only on a vastly smaller scale than crude. And to produce more means to produce less food. Some of them (ethanol in particular) take more energy to grow and extract than released when burning, so are useless as a primary fuel.
3) Nukular. Err, nuclear. Lousy for vehicles. Politically impossible. Environmentalists hate it. And there still is that waste issue.
4) Hydro. Pretty much tapped out, not directly usable for vehicles, and environmentalists hate it.
5) Geothermal. Very few places it can be practically tapped, not directly usable for vehicles. Environmentalists hate it.
6) Geophysical, e.g. tidal powered. Again, few places it can be practically tapped, not directly usable for vehicles, and environmentalists hate it.
7) Good old fossil fuels -- conventionally, solar energy stored in prehistoric times. An alternate theory holds that oil is left over from the formation of the solar system. Environmentalists hate them too (except natural gas, sometimes), but they're too firmly established for those concerns to kill them.
If you want something else usable as a fuel, you either need to find some other common substance with a lot of potential energy stored in it chemically, or figure a way to extract power from some available source so cheaply that it makes sense to synthesize a fuel rather than use refined oil.
So, I gather that Environmentalists and Politicians are the primary impediment. Well we can solve that!
So, I gather that Environmentalists and Politicians are the primary impediment. Well we can solve that!
I dunno. We haven't done too well at getting rid of them so far.
US revises fuel efficiency rules
THE Bush Administration yesterday announced significant revisions to US vehicle fuel efficiency standards, a policy of central concern to US oil demand forecasts. With the bulk of US petroleum consumption stemming from vehicle gasoline, the steady drop in average fuel efficiency - and hence oil demand growth - has been driven by sales of 'light trucks' (Sports Utility Vehicles, pickups, etc.), which are not covered by Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) rules. Under the Bush proposal, the light trucks that now comprise half the vehicles on America's roads will be regulated by new CAFE standards, to be phased in through to 2011. US oil consumption is predicted to fall 243M barrels over the lifetime of vehicles built between 2008 and 2011. Environmentalists immediately criticised Bush, calling the impact on oil consumption inadequate. Meanwhile, analysts pointed out that surging gas prices are likely to pre-empt the new CAFE rules, forcing up vehicle fuel efficiency and dampening US consumption irrespective of regulatory enforcement.
What do you reckon...?
Environmentalists immediately criticised Bush, calling the impact on oil consumption inadequate.
damned if you do, damned if you don't.
gas prices have gone up. we spend more on gas. people are still buying big trucks and SUV's. when it really starts to make a signicant difference in personal finances, people will quit buying large vehicles and look at smaller more economical vehicles.
when people find their supply of cash effected by gas prices, demand for gas guzzlers will go down. until then we are just exercising our right to bitch. it is a national passtime.
when people find their supply of cash effected by gas prices, demand for gas guzzlers will go down.
When you think back to earlier oil crises the big guzzlers took a short-term hit but then came back, but mainly in the SUV stream where the new rules didn't apply - wonder if the change bringing SUVs and such into line will make a difference this time though...
As an outsider, each successive major oil hike has seen mainstream attitudes change in respect of car ownership here, with more emphasis on fuel economy. Even in the luxury end of the market, large cars that years back would be accepted with 12-15 mpg over here are now returning 20+ mpg - the average car mpg is more in the range 35-45 here these days...
US revises fuel efficiency rules
THE Bush Administration yesterday announced significant revisions to US vehicle fuel efficiency standards...blah, blah, blah
Do these things really make a difference? To me, it just seems like more "feel good" actions, giving the illusion that something is being done to better Bush's energy policy. IMO, the real action should take place in the form of getting the U.S. less reliant on crude supplied by countries will are potential enemies. All it would take is one well staged coupe in Saudi and [size=3]
poof[/size], our supply of oil is gone.
Well, eliminating the "light truck" exemption is a good thing. Half the cars on the road now have no fuel efficiency standards, so removing that loophole will help.
But it's certainly not going to fix the energy issues on its own.
But it's certainly not going to fix the energy issues on its own.
This seems to me like the biggest fallacy of most new energy proposals; everybody is looking for the silver bullet. It doesn't exist. There is no single solution to the problem, but there are several incremental and varying steps that will all contribute to a more sustainable policy:
1) increased efficiency of consumption, including home appliances and vehicles.
2) altered habits that rely on less use of energy, such as mass transit use and carpooling
3) an increased efficiency in the crude-to-unleaded production line, so that US gas prices don't swing by 50 cents when a single refinery goes down
4) increasing reliance on sustainable energy sources. No, there's not going to be a single new energy source that replaces oil, but broad incremental shifts to new sources will make a huge impact on demand.
5) some sort of middle-ground on new source exploration vs. environmental impact. Nobody wants to turn the Arctic circle into a teeming mass of bubbling crude, but we need to recognize that there are untapped energy resources that will take 10-20 years to go from discovery to market, and that our need for such resources will only increase in urgency. Is there no room for middle ground? Maybe the environmental groups can actually work with the energy groups to develop a plan of exploration that has minimal impact.
It seems to me that various interest groups back single points of this list, and decry any other move because it's not their particular solution. Increase efficiency in vehicles is bad because it's not pushing people to new sources? that's absurd. Sustainable energy sources are bad because they're not prevelant enough to shoulder the burden of oil? that's absurd too.
We need a broad range of solutions, and we need to embrace them all. There is no one solution.
IMO, the real action should take place in the form of getting the U.S. less reliant on crude supplied by countries will are potential enemies.
"Less reliant" = Need to buy less crude, since practically all of the crude-supplying countries have potential enemy status
Requiring more efficient vehicles = People have to buy less gas, the US has to buy less crude
I don't see how this doesn't fall into your definition of "the real action."
lots of stuff
Agreed. I didn't intend for my last sentence to diminish my first two.
The Hummer H3 gets 20 mpg. :lol:
Agreed. I didn't intend for my last sentence to diminish my first two.
i figured, i was just using your convenient statement to launch my own tirade.
"Less reliant" = Need to buy less crude, since practically all of the crude-supplying countries have potential enemy status
Requiring more efficient vehicles = People have to buy less gas, the US has to buy less crude
I don't see how this doesn't fall into your definition of "the real action."
True. However, how much efficiency can we build into vehicles before we hit a brick wall. I mean, there is only so much more efficeint ways to burn fossil fuels (areodynamics, computers, better lubricants, lighter vehicles, etc.), right? After a while, some of the burden has to fall on the fuel manufacturers. They have to come up with better formulas which would eventually move in the direction of nontraditional fossil fuel mixtures. Right?
What do you reckon...?
I reckon the article's fibbing you. CAFE applies to most light trucks and SUVs; it's just a lower standard. Only really big stuff (8000 pounds GVWR, I think) is exempt, and in SUVs that leaves you with the 3/4 ton Suburban (not the regular half-ton), the discontinued Excursion, and maybe one or two others.
Nice try, tw, but no cigar:
Marichiko provided a chart that is suppose to be gasoline prices in 2005 dollars.
Chart is post #48
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Consumer Price Index (CPI) data, a dollar in 1970 is now $5.04. That means in 2005 dollars, a gallon of gasoline in 1970 cost $1.75. According to Mari's chart, gas was suppose to cost about $1.45.
By 1979, with gas at $1.20 per gallon, gasoline was $3.40 per gallon using Commerce Department numbers. It looks like the Commerce Department has revised their conversions down from that last time I ran these numbers. According to Marichiko's chart, that price in 2005 dollars was only $2.60.
In 1979, a barrel of crude was costing $35 per bbl. In 2005 dollars, that would be $94 per barrel. Price spiked in June 1979 to $40 per bbl which would be $108 per bbl in 2005 dollars. Current oil prices have risen sharply to only $67 per barrel.
Back then, as they so often do, the Saudis worked to keep oil prices down. So when world market prices were at $35, the Saudis were selling crude at prices of between $18 and $23.50 per bbl. That is between $48.50 and $63 per barrel. Prices for crude and at the pump were significantly higher then compared to today.
In another oil crisis of 1973, gasoline jumped to about $3.25 per gallon in 2005 dollars. According to Marichiko's chart, that price in 1973 was only $1.75. I have problems with Marichiko's chart whose origin is not known. Its numbers contradict the Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers.
I just find it interesting that in this time and age of technological advances that no one can come up with a valid, inexpesive, safe, clean alternative fuel. I mean, come on, why does the fuel we need to use have to include oil as a main ingredient?
Appreciate basic chemistry. Show me another fuel that can store the same energy per pound as petroleum. Furthermore, have you looked at petroleum molecules? We humans make complex structures with simple molecules of two or 6 atoms. Man has no practical way (yet) of making anything as complex as petroleum. We are very dependent on nature for complex organic compounds. Rather sad that a molecule so complex and wonderful, with so many interesting functions, is instead burned for heat. And yet planes really could not fly as they do today without petroleum. There just is no fuel that can store so much energy in so little weight. Furthermore, fuels such as hydrogen (hyped to the naive) just don't transport or store well meaning even worse energy efficiency.
The problem is making a fuel that can store energy without major loss AND can hold sufficient energy per pound. Nothing (at reasonable cost) comes close.
Our energy problems are so simple to solve. It’s called innovation. The solutions are based in efficiencies. Even back in the late 1970s, a maximum zed car (not much larger than a bathtub) using only a carburetor, achieved something like 1300 MPG. Don't even expect a gasoline driven car to achieve those numbers. But those numbers demonstrate what I had posted many months ago (search for a discussion about Horsepower per liter). Most of the energy burned in cars is completely wasted. Cars are that grossly inefficient.
When GM and Ford engineers developed new technologies that made better use of petroleum in about 1970 and 1965, well, what happened to those technologies? They were stifled until rescued by foreign automakers in 1990 and by Honda in 1980.
You tell me. Do you really believe we have not the ability to innovate, based upon lessons of history? Of course we do. So what happened to that $100 million dollars provided in 1994 to build a hybrid? GM still does not have a workable hybrid engine 11 years later. Do you still believe, based upon past and recent histories, that innovation is marketed in the American auto industry? Even when driven to the verge of bankruptcy, those companies still did not tap their archive of innovations.
So you tell me why. Did you say to America, "Keep making crap"? Or did you demand innovation; buy from companies such as Toyota? We stifled innovation when we buy 1968 technology machines marketed as 2005 monster vehicles. Too many so hate America as to buy GM products. Do you say anything when the neighbor says, "F... America" - and buys a Chevy? Well then how in hell are the car guys ever going to tap and use America's innovation pipeline?
Where is that hybrid that the US government paid 11 years ago to have built? Oh. George Jr tells us the solution is more oil. Where is that oil? Middle East and Central Asia. No problem. We will fix their nations. We will impose democracy. I guess that is innovation according to the Project for a New American Century.
But this is the most embarrassing part. Did you even know the simple science as explained in the newspapers (papers that actually report news)? A major problem is that some just think a solution must exist without first learning the underlying concepts - especially the numbers. If one really understood fundamental numbers, then one would immediately see through GM's lie about hydrogen as a fuel. And yet so many of us so don't first learn facts as to believe that GM lie. So again the problem continues.
The nation that was once a number 3 oil producing country was still importing over 50% of its oil - when the 1970s gas crisis hit. Now we import something like 70% of our oil - and don't worry? Furthermore, we now must import natural gas. Why? We consume double energy to accomplish same thing as any other nation. The solution is not more oil. The solution is doing everything smarter. As the Japanese always said, don't work harder - work smarter.
True. However, how much efficiency can we build into vehicles before we hit a brick wall. I mean, there is only so much more efficeint ways to burn fossil fuels (areodynamics, computers, better lubricants, lighter vehicles, etc.), right? After a while, some of the burden has to fall on the fuel manufacturers. They have to come up with better formulas which would eventually move in the direction of nontraditional fossil fuel mixtures. Right?
A 200+ horsepower engine under the hood. That massive engine needs how much horsepower to maintain 55 MPH down the highway? 10? So what happened to the other 100 HP? We must burn extra energy just in case a driver wants to accelerate? The inefficiencies are that great. Don't fool yourself. There is a massive inefficiency in cars. But it take time and public demand to discover how to achieve those efficiencies. The American public, encouraged by the current administration, repeatedly demands no such innovation. Cited previously were historical examples of what it took to rescue American innovations. Japanese. Government regulation. A few decades of delay.
Want to appreciate why solutions sit stifled? You make many demands and ask many questions, but demonstrate little laymen's grasp of the problems. Read that previous discussion about horsepower per liter, et al? Grasp every number as if it were a life jacket on the Titanic. Do you know why a radial tire that achieved double or triple mileage, and that increased fuel economy significantly was essentially banned from the US for almost three decades? Just another lesson of history that better puts your questions into perspective. Therein lies a trend that brings about another 'energy crisis'.
RE: TW
I never considered the chemestry aspect before. Harkening back to my chemestry days in school, I do remember descussions on this topic back than; the amount of potential energy stored in fossil fuels is phenominal.
I will also agree on the point of auto manufactures inability to embrace innovation. Like all manufacturers, car manufacturers are in buisness to make money, not make the world a better place. They change, they innovate, but to capture the current public market not to save the ozone or a spotted seal or something. When they felt threatened by foreign markets such as Japan, US manufacturers began to build better quality cars. When the public wanted SUVs, the manufacturer obliged. When we wanted minivans, they poured off the assembly lines like water. There is no current push for fuel efficiency by the public...yet. As fuel prices climb to and above three bucks a gallon, the cry will become louder for fuel efficient cars.
What I don't agree with is the fact that because I bought a 2004 Honda CR-V instead of a 2004 Ford Escape will stiffle and stunt US manufacture willingness to innovate is not entirely true. Like I said, car builders are driven by money. As gas prices climb, people are going to be less willing to buy large US built SUVs and trucks and begin looking at smaller Jap cars again. When the auto manufacturers see this trend, they will react and innovate, making US built cars more desireable than foriegn jobbies. Necessity is the mother of all invention (or inovation). In this case, the necessity is to keep the market and to make money.
some interesting stuff at
www.gasbuddies.com.
Like all manufacturers, car manufacturers are in buisness to make money, not make the world a better place. They change, they innovate, but to capture the current public market not to save the ozone or a spotted seal or something. When they felt threatened by foreign markets such as Japan, US manufacturers began to build better quality cars.
The purpose of a company is the profits only when the company has objectives equivalent to the mafia. Only organizations as corrupt as the mafia want profits; the product be damned.
For example, pre-1979 Chrysler was so driven to make money that, for example, windows would rattle in the doors. If management redesigned the bracket so that a parts supplier could make it correctly, then they would increase costs. It was cheaper to leave the bracket as is. A threat of bankruptcy was necessary to eliminate Townsend and Richardo - to get Lee Iacoccoa into Chrysler. So what did Iacoccoa do? He said finance is no longer the driving force in Chrysler. The product is everything. That bracket, et al was finally designed correctly. As a result, Chrysler was earning record profits in only 4 years.
Iacoccoa virtually laid this fact out in his book. But so many among us are so MBA brainwashed that we never saw what Iacoccoa was saying. That bracket story was told as a classic example of why bean counters and their finance oriented thinking is so destructive.
By worrying about the product instead of the profits, then companies stop losing money and earn profits. This goes right to the basic definition of a company - to make better products that advance mankind.
Examples are so long and numerous that it is amazing how many still let MBA school brainwashing distort their thinking. When companies worry about the profits at the expense of product, then they have no profits ... long term. You need only look at Apple Computer under Spindler and Sculley to see what MBA principles almost did to Apple.
Another example from the 1970s. Henry Ford, the anti-American, routinely made decisions from his spread sheets. He could not even drive a car and saw no reason to know how to drive. As a result, car guys designed their last car: 1965 Mustang. After that, all Fords were designed by bean counters. So what happened to Ford's profits? Gone. Why? Because the communist Henry Ford said profits are the purpose of this company. This caused much conflict between him and his son William Clay Ford. The latter is a car guy; not a bean counter.
First car designed by the car guys since the 1965 Mustang ......
1986 Ford Taurus. The Taurus saved Ford from bankruptcy. Why? Twenty plus years of cars designed to maximize profits meant Ford was unprofitable - cost more to build - failed more often - were intentionally changed to (in my case) result in a complete valve job in 10,000 to 20,000 miles
Don Petersen, who replaced Henry Ford (because we stopped buying Fords), demanded a car NOT designed by cost controls. He wanted the best they could do. Product oriented management. This change was difficult for Ford employees to understand. They had been told the 'purpose' was the profits. Suddenly the profits were no longer an objective. The product was everything.
In order to replace MBA mentality with product oriented thinking, Ford even brought the enemy of business schools back from Japan. "Quality is Job #1" is the result of bringing William Edward Deming back from Japan.
Why does 'profits are the objective' so destroy companies? David Halberstam describes the problem with but another example:
"The Reckoning" page 507
E-coat was a technique that Ford manufacturing development people had invented in 1958 to improve the quality of the paint jobs, particularly the rustproofing ... paint, electrically attracted to the car was pulled into the tiniest, hardest to reach crannies of the body. From the first the process was a stunning success ... Very soon it become the industry standard. ... Ford itself moved very slowly in installing the process in its American plants. It was an expensive technique ... That it was a much better process no one doubted. But when the manufacturing and product men pointed to its virtues, the finance men would point to the price. Somehow the manufacturing men would be unable to prove that E-coat would make a $4 million difference. ... In 1984, more than 25 years after Ford had invented it, [three years after the finance people were removed from positions of power and long after Ford had earned profits selling the process to other auto companies] the company got it into its last two plants.
The Ford system ... manufacturing people were ... politically and economically disenfranchised within the company. The finance people had their careers laid out before them: They never had to go out in the field and actually deal with the reality of making cars; instead, they found sponsors and they went right up through the ranks. ... By comparison a young manufacturing man would encounter a subcurrent of condescension and disrespect. ... Someone in finance who was the same age and performing equivalent would more likely be several levels above him in grade and drawing much larger bonuses; the total package might be three or four times as much.
Paul Weaver's 1978 Ford employment in "Suicide Corporation" page 54:
When I went to Dearborn, it worried me that I knew nothing about cars - that I didn't even own one. Wouldn't this be a handicap to a rising young auto executive, I wondered? The answer was no. People at world headquarters almost never talked about cars. Even the many colleagues who had risen through the ranks of NAAO and therefore had to know a lot about automobiles didn't show it. No one expressed any enthusiasm for cars that I ever detected. ...
What did interest my colleagues at Ford ... was the company's position in the auto industry. ... It often seemed that my colleagues would rather bear any burden or incur any risk than see a competitor gain the tiniest advantage. Issues like the character and quality of our products, or how customers used and felt about them, struck few sparks by comparison.
Exactly what happens - long term destruction of the company - when the company foolishly thinks finance rather than the product is more important.
I could write all day about dying companies and their MBA mindset bosses. The trend occurs so often that it is a more honest religion than organized religion. Finance oriented (rather that product oriented) companies die as a result of that MBA school philosophy; "the purpose of a company is its profits". What saves companies from the resulting communist mentality? Often bankruptcy with no government protection is necessary to remove bean counter types who destroy innovation and therefore the company. For a company to innovate, the product must be the company's #1 purpose - not its profits. "Quality is Job #1" means the product (not the finance) is the company's objective. As a result, a reformed and now product oriented company so often achieves record profits.
Chrysler demonstrated it after 1978. Ford in the 1980s. Apple Computer after Spindler was removed by what I am told were chains of four letter words from stock holders. A Board of Directors dominated by bean counter types had already approved Spindlers continued employment when stock holder reaction shocked those BoD back into intelligent thought. Profitable companies (long term) are product oriented because the profits are only a reward - and not the purpose.
What I don't agree with is the fact that because I bought a 2004 Honda CR-V instead of a 2004 Ford Escape will stiffle and stunt US manufacture willingness to innovate is not entirely true.
Reread what I wrote. Did you blindly buy American or did you act like a patriot - and buy using free market principles. You bought a Honda saying to Ford Motor that they need to listen more to car guys - less to bean counters. IOW by buying the Honda, you sent a patriotic message to the domestic auto industry. This will eventually let Ford innovators put 70+ Horsepower per liter engines in all Fords.
How do you make America strong? Buy the best (principles of the free market) and never blindly buy American. 'Buy American' only says "Keep making crap".
A 200+ horsepower engine under the hood. That massive engine needs how much horsepower to maintain 55 MPH down the highway? 10? So what happened to the other 100 HP?
It isn't produced. An engine with 200 (peak) HP doesn't produce 200HP and somehow waste the rest when it's not needed.
All the cars are 200 HP nowadays, even the efficient ones. Even the Honda Accord Hybrid is capable of 255 HP.
All the cars are 200 HP nowadays, even the efficient ones. Even the Honda Accord Hybrid is capable of 255 HP.
2.3 liter times 70 Hp per liter is ..... 160. What was the 350 V-8 in the 1970s? 140 to 160 Hp. That was more than sufficient then. What has changed? The Honda Accord Hybrid is a high performance V-6 - way more than any driver needs. Where all cars are over 200 Hp, well, ego is excessive. IOW price of gas is no where near high enough to force the ego to conceded to logic.
Want to see how low gasoline prices are? Look at the so many who buy 4.0 and 6.5 liter vehicles ... still. Gasoline prices have not become high enough to restore sanity. But then that is why when gasoline jumped to about $1.70 per gallon in 1979, only then did the automakers decide they had to innovate. $1.70 in 1979 is about $4.50 in 2005 dollars.
Those dollars saved will go toward flowers for your funeral when you can't get out of harms way with your 150 hp. :headshake
Those dollars saved will go toward flowers for your funeral when you can't get out of harms way with your 150 hp.
So let me understand what has just been posted. We are all such poor drivers that we now need 200+ HP to do what 70 Hp once did just fine. Or is it that we all need contacts to fix a mental problem called myopia?
No. The problem is that when the penis gets that big, then we need more horsepower to move it. Actually we need more horsepower because our egos are now so big. Meanwhile, it will take a responsible gas crisis to bring Americans back to reality. Good thing we have crisis to periodically and properly age us.
Reread what I wrote. Did you blindly buy American or did you act like a patriot - and buy using free market principles. You bought a Honda saying to Ford Motor that they need to listen more to car guys - less to bean counters. IOW by buying the Honda, you sent a patriotic message to the domestic auto industry. This will eventually let Ford innovators put 70+ Horsepower per liter engines in all Fords.
How do you make America strong? Buy the best (principles of the free market) and never blindly buy American. 'Buy American' only says "Keep making crap".
I did, and your right. So.....we agree...I think. Car manufacturers see people running across the street to buy cars, and they will quickly rethink and reconfigure their product to bring the money back into thier side of the street. Essentially what they do is copy what the public is asking for, and maybe give a little more to make it more attractive then the one across the street. Once again, they are in buisness to make money, not to supply us with a product. Otherwise, why be in buisness. They may not be intirely driven by profit these days, but it is a major thread. I bought Honda because it got slightly better gas milage than the Escape, and Honda's reputation for life expectancy is tons better than Ford. I bought a brand new 1995 Chevy S-10 because I wanted to "buy American." It lasted about 50k andI had to sell if off before because it was dying.
So let me understand what has just been posted. We are all such poor drivers that we now need 200+ HP to do what 70 Hp once did just fine. Or is it that we all need contacts to fix a mental problem called myopia?
No. The problem is that when the penis gets that big, then we need more horsepower to move it. Actually we need more horsepower because our egos are now so big. Meanwhile, it will take a responsible gas crisis to bring Americans back to reality. Good thing we have crisis to periodically and properly age us.
Insults will get you nowhere...here or when that cement truck is about to turn you into history.
70 hp? I can't remember the last time I drove something with 70 hp...and 4 wheels. :headshake
That was average around 1980 when I was coming up. My first car was the 1985 VW GTI which was considered "sporty" at 102 hp. That car did 0-60 in 8 seconds, which is close to what my lj-leased 255 hp 2005 Frontier manages... 8.5 seconds. No I don't take off like that... often.
That was average around 1980 when I was coming up.
From
here
Average horsepower of cars and light trucks decreased from 137 horsepower in 1975 to a low of 102 in the 1981/82 period, then rose 63 percent by 1996. (Light trucks includes minivans, sport utility vehicles and small pickup trucks.)
70 HP, hasn't been average for a very, very long time. :headshake
you do, of course, realize that this chart posting will cause a series of charts to be posted over the next month, each telling why you are wrong, foolish, republican, and probably inbred?
Gas prices are rough but as of yet it hasn't changed my driving habits much. It's ironic that gas prices rose so sharply as soon my 1998 Tahoe went up in flames and I replaced it with a 1999 Suburban. So I went from a 30 gallon tank to a 40 gallon tank and 16 MPG to 13 MPG. I was all excited about the Suburban because it's the perfect tailgate vehicle (other than a monster RV which I can't afford) but the gas prices have put quite a damper on that.
The fortunate thing is that I don't have an office to drive to. If I'm not traveling to a customer's site (typically plane or train) I work from home. Occasionally I have to drive to my office in VA but that's only about once or twice a month. This will help me keep gas spending low.
you do, of course, realize that this chart posting will cause a series of charts to be posted over the next month, each telling why you are wrong, foolish, republican, and probably inbred?
*singing* That's Entertainment */singing*
I just spent $52.00 on a fillup last night for the first time in my life. Furthermore, I spent $5.00 on gas for my lawnmower, and it didn't fill a 2-gallon gas can.
Someone tell me again how this isn't going to decimate our economy?
Someone tell me again how this isn't going to decimate our economy?
Deja Vue. Do you remember the 1970s. Deja Vue. Notice the above posters who have changed nothing. IOW the price has not yet gone up high enough. Even when big block V-8 cars were as heavy as that Suburban, they still got 17 MPG highway. Meanwhile, most Suburban owners and equivalent that I know of are not even getting 13 MPG. 12 is the highest number provided. IOW the price of gas has not gotten high enough to that these vehicles do even what was once standard.
You have not yet seen a high price. Obviously. Show me all these people who are changing their lifestyles? Many people even leave their computers on 24/7. Just another change when the price gets high enough.
IOW the price of gas has not gotten high enough to that these vehicles do even what was once standard.
Please decifer what you are saying here.
You have not yet seen a high price.
If your talking about the price of gas, what are you paying for gas right now. A year ago we were paying an average of $1.90 for gas. Two years ago, we were paying an average of $1.55. It is now $2.63 at the local Safeway gas station. It could go as high as $3.00 within weeks. These are high prices to me.
Obviously. Show me all these people who are changing their lifestyles?
True. We are Americans, we like our luxuries. Unforntnatly, we don't change unless we are forced. And even then....
Many people even leave their computers on 24/7.
What does this have to do with the price of gas?
Just another change when the price gets high enough.
I think this is the krux of your idea, the price gets high enough, Americans will change thier habits. I don't think there will be enough change to offset the rise in fuel costs.
Just an observation here...
There is a trend in the gas market that everyone seems to miss. At one point, we are paying $1.50 then it climbs to $1.80 and everyone complains. It drops but not past $1.70. Everyone is happy they're not paying $1.80 anymore but don't really complain we are now paying $0.20 more for gas than we were a few months ago. Gas goes up to $1.90 then drops back down but only to $1.80. Everyone's happy gas has gone down but now were paying $0.10 more than a few weeks prior. It
seems (opperative word - SEEMS) it is a way the manufacturers bump the price of gas to offset higher cost on the manufacturering on their end. I realize supply and demand has something to do with it, of course, however, the price never seems to go back down to the level it was before the rise when supplies return to normal.
Just an observation here...
Purhaps this site can explain the basics of crude economics. I ran into this
link. I haven't had a chance to read it all yet but it seems legit and informative.
Deja Vue. Do you remember the 1970s. Deja Vue. Notice the above posters who have changed nothing.
Not to make your CAFE argument for you, since I'd rather see the real cost of oil reflected in its pump price letting the market work, but I wonder how much impact used car buyers really have on what types of vehicles are produced for new car buyers? How much do folks think about resale and is there (usually) a decent market for used econo-boxes?
I had a smugmobile moment today pulling the Echo (44mpg) up to the gas pump as a shiney Hummer pulled away from the other side. :yellowr:
I seem to remember that the economy during the 70's really sucked pretty bad, dejavu-wise. I don't recall it improving due to high fuel prices and shortages.
While I have a reasonable amount of disposable income, I won't if gas goes up over $3.00 (which I now predict will happen by Labor Day...you heard it here first). I suspect that I may not be a vanishingly small part of the consumer base in this country, and that many others may find themselves becoming strapped as well, especially when fuel costs impact the price of goods at the point of sale (which, for my next prediction, will occur by the end of October, in spades, in order to anticipate the holiday buying season, which I further predict will be the worst in a decade).
I don't have any citations for any of this, so feel free to knock down my arguments. We're living on borrowed money in this country. We produce very little of what we consume anymore, we are fat and lazy on technology and unsupported, overinflated home values, and our State and Federal governments are dumping more and more of the burden of the disabled and indigent back in their handicapped laps. We have just experienced what is undoubtedly going to be the most disastrous, expensive catastrophe in American History, guaranteeing increased insurance prices and lowered insurance availability along with business and personal financial crises on an enormous scale, all types of fuels are reaching historic highs every other week, and we are waging a very expensive, lingering war.
Someone else will need to take care of posting the good news in all of this.
Someone else will need to take care of posting the good news in all of this.
Since we always learn from our mistakes, there will be a big push in domestic energy production creating a growth sector in our econom... never mind.
According to what I've been reading and hearing, it wouldn't matter if we found an oil reserve the size of Saudi Arabia's...we wouldn't be able to process it, and the price would go up.
I have yet to hear a scenario, even one where something good happens, where the price of energy doesn't go up. Supply and demand are not really what drives energy. Politics drives energy prices. It is a tool, a weapon, not a commodity. Ptui!
So you're saying we need a good solid war?
Just an observation here...
There is a trend in the gas market that everyone seems to miss. At one point, we are paying $1.50 then it climbs to $1.80 and everyone complains. It drops but not past $1.70. Everyone is happy they're not paying $1.80 anymore but don't really complain we are now paying $0.20 more for gas than we were a few months ago.
Yes, everyone complains using emotion. However the facts are supported by what they actually do. You don't see SUV sales plummeting. Maybe the largest 8 MPG models are not selling as much. But even in The Cellar, one buys a low performance gas guzzler and justifies it by saying he does not drive much.
When gas was really cheap in 1970, it was about $0.34 per gallon. That is about $1.70 in 2005 dollars according to numbers from the Bureau for Labor Statistics. So when gasoline went from about $1.00 per gallon to $1.40 and so many were complaining even here, well, how many really changed anything? IOW they were being emotional. Logically, price of gasoline was still so low, as demonstrated by their actions.
According to a government chart, gasoline in 1980 was about $1.35 per gallon. This translates to maybe $3.50 per gallon. It was only then that Americans did any life style changes. Whether change was due to gas prices could be debated because jobs had all but disappeared. Stagflation, federal government money games, and the cost of a Vietnam War also were appearing in spread sheets as a lagging economic indicator.
It did not much help that at least one American car would not start in a parking lot every cold day. Things were failing that frequently causing significant attitude changes in Americans.
The point is, gasoline is not high enough until even GM starts doing innovation such as hybrids and fires top management who do not even drive. Management so myopic, technically naive, and anti-GM as to even promote hydrogen as a fuel. Currently the nation is going about business today as if gas prices were same as in 1999 - less than $1 per gallon. Gas prices are still that low.
Don't listen to the hype about high gas prices. Look at what people actually do. Currently, prices are still quite low as demonstrated by economic numbers that will not show the downside of high gas prices for years. IOW Deja Vue.
I seem to remember that the economy during the 70's really sucked pretty bad, dejavu-wise. I don't recall it improving due to high fuel prices and shortages.
The economy sucking so bad for most of the 1970s finally resulted in changes in 1980s. For example, as a result of firing the anti-American Henry Ford in 1981 (patriots stopped buying Fords after decades of crap products and therefore voted out Henry), then 'car guys' finally started designing Fords. Engineeers had designed the 1965 Mustang. What is the next car designed by car guys in Ford Motor? 1986 Ford Taurus. A car that eventually started making profits for Ford in 1990. Look at those numbers. Look how long economic indicators take to measure profits from innovation.
It took the 1970s to eliminate Henry Ford. Then almost ten years to start improving things. Of course. They don't teach in the business schools what really makes profits. It takes typically four to ten years to design. The profits in 1990 Ford were due to work done in 1981, 82, 83, 84, 85, and 86. Notice years like 1989 and 1990 are not listed. What does it take to create economic change? Four to ten years later, the profits from innovation finally appear on spread sheets.
Don't for a minute think today's oil prices will adversely affect todays economy. We have not yet seen how today's oil prices affect your job. We have not yet seen what should be the resulting stagflation due to how the government is leaking money everywhere and how US dollars are flowing overseas in waves.
It is how economies really work. We are just now suffering the pain of that George Jr tax cut. Pain that should continue for years to come. Again, that is how economics works. Don't think as business school graduates are taught. They put some capital into a simulator and out pops more profits that next year. Bull. Think what they don't teach in the business schools. Real world economics are based upon the product - more specifically innovation. Any innovation inspired by higher gas prices will never appear for at least four years - and longer.
$100 million in 1994 to build a hybrid. Eleven years later and GM still has no hybrid? Innovation cannot happen in corrupt institutions until the pain becomes so great as to threaten bankruptcy. Then many years later for liberated innovations to finally emerge in economic spread sheets. Lagging indicators take years.
Currently nothing has changed except the hype and emotion.
Head's up -- we're going short here in Tampa. 87 octane is gone thanks to Katrina.
I filled up yesterday 2.49/gal for 87 octane. Drove past the same station today - 2.87 for 87 octane.
Someone tell me there's not gouging going on...in a way I'll believe it.
Capitalism at its finest.
Cali update: Just saw three gas stations within 3 miles at over $3.00 for mid-range gas. Ouch.
Head's up -- we're going short here in Tampa. 87 octane is gone thanks to Katrina.
same thing happened in phoenix two days ago. i had to visit 4 gas stations to find 89 (all were out of 87) and i took the last of the 89 from the 4th station.
2.89 for Premium at the gas station on the way to work today. I did not buy premium.
So, can anybody tell me ... which is more energy efficient, running the A/C (albeit at a higher level than I would actually want, mildly chilled instead of icy cold) or driving with the windows open? (7 mile drive to work, usually not exceeding 40 mph)
get some ice from your fridge, put it in a plastic bag, place it on your crotch and voilâ!
ice cold driving.
same thing happened in phoenix two days ago. i had to visit 4 gas stations to find 89 (all were out of 87) and i took the last of the 89 from the 4th station.
In Tampa, I suspect it was our glorious Gov's use of the magic word "rationing" on national television, yesterday, that prompted a small panic and hurried fill-ups. The runouts we're seeing aren't any different than when a hurricane threatens us and everyone buys all at once.
What happened in Phoenix to cause a shortage? And did you end up wasting more money in gasoline driving to find the cheap stuff than if you would have just filled with 89 at the first station?
Filled up yesterday with our cheapest, ethanol blend 89 octane (it's Iowa, we get a break) at $2.43. Topped it off this morning same place at $2.59. I passed a couple stations putting up the 3.XX as I was going to work. I think I'll be putting up a notice for anyone willing to carpool. Good thing I asked for and got a raise, too bad I won't be able to enjoy the extra $$.
On the radio this morning they were talking about the price only being higher in 1980 (when corrected for inflation etc.)...don't remember what the price was then tho.
So, can anybody tell me ... which is more energy efficient, running the A/C (albeit at a higher level than I would actually want, mildly chilled instead of icy cold) or driving with the windows open? (7 mile drive to work, usually not exceeding 40 mph)
I read this a while ago: air on for highway speeds, windows for < 50mph.
same thing happened in phoenix two days ago. i had to visit 4 gas stations to find 89 (all were out of 87) and i took the last of the 89 from the 4th station.
Really? I haven't been aware of any gas shortages here on my side of town. Cripes! I hope we don't have a replay of what happened a while back when the pipeline broke just outside of Tucson. People panicked, everyone filled their tanks running stations dry. Then, people paniked even more. You remember Lookout, people were actually tracking down and following fuel trucks as they drove to the gas stations for delivery. Or, what was funny, was they would sometimes follow them back to the fuel depots thinking they were making a delivery.
High gas prices? BRING IT!
Here's one cause of the high gas prices and short supply. Can you say "hoarding?"
Here, Joe Stevens fills his 1,500 gallon gas tank after waiting in line for an hour in Mobile, Alabama yesterday.
Here's one cause of the high gas prices and short supply. Can you say "hoarding?"
Here, Joe Stevens fills his 1,500 gallon gas tank after waiting in line for an hour in Mobile, Alabama yesterday.
Many, many, years ago when I was a kid, I seemed to remember one of the many gas crisis that hit this country. People were hoarding gas by filling large containers and putting them in their backyard. Many of them were actually burying them in the ground. Many of these containers that were plastic, since they were fuel rated, would begin to deteriorate and leak, causing a huge hazard. There were also reports of these containers exploding becuse of the building up of gas fumes. Folks do unerstand that you can't just fill anything up with gas and be good. I am surprise the gas station is allowing this dude to fill this rusted out hunk of metal. Not to mention, if gas was...say $2.80 in Mobile, that's 4,200 fricken dollars!
Innovation cannot happen in corrupt institutions until the pain becomes so great as to threaten bankruptcy.
Currently nothing has changed except the hype and emotion.
I went from spending $400 per month on gas to spending $600 in about two months time. I did not get a raise. Where did that extra money come from? At this rate of energy inflation (because my electricity and natural gas will go up as well), who will go bankrupt first? Me, or GM?
Oh, wait...I can't really file bankruptcy anymore, can I? But GM can. That's good for business.
Sorry, TW. I contribute to the economy. If I have to spend my disposable income on fuel, then I don't spend it on other things, and the economy suffers. If I get a raise to offset the increase, then my company's prices go up, and hence inflation, and the economy suffers.
at 2 pm yesterday I passed a gas station right by my house that posted $2.41, I intended to bring back our minivan and filler up but forgot. At 4:30 pm much to my suprise it was $2.99 at the station right by my dentist's office. I drove by the 2.41 station at 8:30 am today and the price was $3.19. Indpls,IN
:mg:
Welcome to the cellar, shoot. Pull up a chair. The good news is you'll be pleased at the price of gas in here. The bad news is it's all just hot air.
Head's up -- we're going short here in Tampa. 87 octane is gone thanks to Katrina.
found out that 2 main pipelines that supply the east and some of the northeast have been shutdown due to katrina. no telling when it will be back in service.......
found out that 2 main pipelines that supply the east and some of the northeast have been shutdown due to katrina. no telling when it will be back in service.......
PLUS!!!
You'll be getting a convoy of 475 busses carrying 10,000 refugees from the Superdome. Y'all generously cleared the schedule at the Astrodome until December for them. Right neighborly of you. :thanks:
This weekend: <a href="http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journalid=31301411&brk=1">$4 per gallon</a>!
Ahh yes. And so it starts. There are already reports around my area that stations are running out of fuel. Not because we are running out of fuel in Phoenix, but becuase of the idiot media reporting that gas could rise to $4 by weeks end and might be hard to come by to all the idiot people who promtly panic and head off the the nearest gas station to top off. Thereby, throwing an unexpected strain on the current supplies at the stations. I hope the terrorists are watching, this will give them some really good ideas on how to cripple the mighty United States.
Incidentally, we will never see gas prices fall below $2.80 ever again...mark my words. It's that racheting effect of pricing I mentioned earlier in the thread; if prices go to $4 (which I think it's doubtful, $3.50 maybe).
Anyone care to offer their predictions on what all of this will eventually lead to? Are we going to see a massive collapse of the economy, a recession, or is all of this fairly temporary?
I wouldn't be afraid to invest in another box of shells if that's what you mean.
Anyone care to offer their predictions on what all of this will eventually lead to? Are we going to see a massive collapse of the economy, a recession, or is all of this fairly temporary?
not so sure that it's temporary. and i can see the oil companies forcing a recession out of greed. they're fixing to spend billions fixing their refineries, pipelines and offshore platforms. of the 10 or so helecopters i worked with all day yesterday they came across numerous damaged or destroyed platforms in the 50-75 mile radius we were working. unfortunately, those costs, like any other to any consumer for any product, will fall back on us as if it hasn't already happened. well, i know i feel the impact.
i am reminded of that old cocain commercial in the late 80's/early 90's only here is a different spin:
"i buy gas so i can go to work to earn more money to buy more gas so i can go to work so i can earn more money so i can buy more gas...."
PLUS!!!
You'll be getting a convoy of 475 busses carrying 10,000 refugees from the Superdome. Y'all generously cleared the schedule at the Astrodome until December for them. Right neighborly of you. :thanks:
i agree, that was a very noble/neighborly gesture and they are welcome to stay! also, people here in town are opening up their spare bedrooms to strangers as well.
from the houston chronicle:
A sign directs officials and volunteers to the evacuee staging area at the Astrodome in Houston, Wednesday, Aug. 31, 2005. More than 20,000 people affected by Hurricane Katrina are expected to be transported from the New Orleans Superdome to the Astrodome for shelter. (AP Photo/Pat Sullivan)
jumped from 2.48 two days ago to 3.20 today here. And premium ONLY is available anywhere in this town.
NATIONWIDE GOUGING IN PROGRESS
pISSES ME RIGHT ON OFF
one more:
Frank Kaljo, who said he can only afford one gallon of gas, fuels his car at a Marathon gas station Wednesday, Aug. 31, 2005, in Chicago where the top grade was selling for $3.89 per gallon. As the shutdown of supplies from the oil-rich Gulf of Mexico drove energy prices to hew highs, the White House signaled Wednesday it is willing to tap into the nation's oil reserves to help refiners whose supplies were disrupted by Hurricane Katrina. (AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast)
Houston Chronicle photo gallery. worth browsing through.....
jumped from 2.48 two days ago to 3.20 today here. And premium ONLY is available anywhere in this town.
You know what would be a real kick in the balls? Let us say, just for fun, that another storm suddenly forms in the Atlantic like Katrina did. Let's say that it starts heading for the US coast. Let's make it even more fun by imagining what would happen if the thing threatened a major city, like New Orleans, as a catagory four or five.
Now, know that during evacuations here in Tampa, gasoline completely dissapears. As in all grades of gas go away as people flood up the interstate and rush to fill generators. In 2004, even with good supplies, people found themselves stranded on the road while they were trying to get the hell out of town.
What do you think would happen, with the current pipeline problem, if the weather decides to take another swipe in the coming weeks?
The number of dead in Gulfport and New Orleans would suddenly be insignificant.
that and/or the storm hits Texas City just north of Galveston and stays on track to hit Pasadena as well. then with that, most of the entire south will not be producing gasoline. some of the majors here, just to name a few include: Marathon, BP, Valero etc.....
just saw a BP station in atlanta on the national news with $6.03+/- for premium :mg:
As the shutdown of supplies from the oil-rich Gulf of Mexico drove energy prices to hew highs, the White House signaled Wednesday it is willing to tap into the nation's oil reserves to help refiners whose supplies were disrupted by Hurricane Katrina.
Oh those devilish details. What does that report forget to mention? What is the other half of the truth they forgot to mention? There is not shortage of crude. There is a shortage of working transport factilities and a shortage of working refineries. But that is alright. You don't know this. Therefore George Jr looks smart. And making George Jr look good is the important point. So we open the strategic oil reserve.
You know what would be a real kick in the balls? Let us say, just for fun, that another storm suddenly forms in the Atlantic like Katrina did.
Of course the New Madrid earthquake fault line in Missouri on the Mississippi is overdue for slippage. Don't things happen in threes?
just saw a BP station in atlanta on the national news with $6.03+/- for premium :mg:
Damn, that must be some
fine gas. capnhowdy, what's the word on the ground in GA?
Damn, that must be some fine gas. capnhowdy, what's the word on the ground in GA?
$3.20 gal premium only..... 30% of stations OUT. Lines 1/2 mile long....
I'm with TW , open the reserves. But wouldn't that weaken our military superiority? I hope this shit doesn't turn out like I'm projecting. :worried:
I'm with TW , open the reserves. But wouldn't that weaken our military superiority?
But TW noted how opening the reserves does not solve the problem. It makes George Jr look good to the naive. But does not solve refinery and transport problems. Does not eliminate the bottleneck.
This is north Cinncy, up about $.20-30 overnight.
I don't often agree with TW, but he's spot on with SOR thing. Won't make a bit of difference, because there's no place to refine it, and no way to get it to market if it was refined.
I can't prove it, but I suspect Bush was responsible for the hurricane. :headshake
I can't prove it, but I suspect Bush was responsible for the hurricane. :headshake
Nicotine? Is that you?
:lol:
Things have stabilized here in Tampa. The gas panic seems to have been short-lived and some of the stations that were once out are now stocked, again. The worst lines seemed to have been on the weekend, but they never extended outside of the stations and onto the streets. Those lines are now gone.
Prices are hovering around $2.73.
I've got to go on a materials run this morning and my pickup's tank is empty. Unless they changed overnight it'll be $2.97.
The station on the corner last night in Arlington VA was:
3.92 regular
3.02 Premium
3.09 Super Premium
How weird is that? Must be a rush on the regular, so they raised the price?
Gas jumped almost $0.20 over night. It's frickin' $2.99 at one local gas station/car wash. I'm know that there is a wonderful, colorful, flowerey economic explaination that goes along with this (in which I'm sure TW has and/or will reveal), but all I can think of is "gougers."
2.99 ethanol blend (89)
3.09 regular (87)
3.19 premium (90+)
at most stations I've seen here. No lines, no shortages. No money left over for a Krispy Kreme and coffee...
I saw a $3.20 regular this morning.
Might be some queues at the pumps this weekend...
Refinery repairs crucial to economy
OIL prices dropped from all-time highs to under $70 a barrel yesterday after the US government offered to loan oil to the petroleum industry from strategic reserves - but industry insiders say that gasoline will remain expensive and in short supply until refineries are brought back online from damage sustained during Hurricane Katrina. ExxonMobil sources said yesterday restoring products pipeline and marine links, including Mississippi River traffic, was the key to boosting crude runs at its capacity-strapped Baton Rouge, Louisiana, refinery. "The release of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve oil may be beneficial to some refiners, but restoring pipeline and marine links is most important to restoring runs at our Baton Rouge refinery," said Exxon Mobil's Prem Nair. In addition to the Exxon 394,000-bpd refinery now running at reduced capacity, the following refineries remain shut: Chevron's 325,000-bpd refinery in Pascagoula, Mississippi; Valero Energy's 260,000-bpd facility in Norco, Louisiana; Marathon Oil's 245,000-bpd refinery in Garyville, Louisiana; ConocoPhillips' 255,000-bpd Alliance refinery in Belle Chasse, Louisiana; ExxonMobil's 183,000-bpd refinery in Chalmette, Louisiana; and Murphy Oil's 125,000-bpd plant in Meraux, Louisiana
Nicotine? Is that you?
:lol:
No. Just Antimatter.
I agree with TW, the problem is the mode of transportation for the finished product. the pipelines must be brought back online.
one thing though:
As the shutdown of supplies from the oil-rich Gulf of Mexico drove energy prices to hew highs, the White House signaled Wednesday it is willing to tap into the nation's oil reserves to help refiners whose supplies were disrupted by Hurricane Katrina. (AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast) was a quote from the associated press/houston chronicle.
I got a tankful of $2.89 Regular in the wife's Taurus last night. Radio says that it is all $3.00+ this morning (I don't really pass any gas stations on the way to work without going out of my way, so I made no direct observations) on the Missouri side, and 10 cents higher in Kansas (which is our normal spread, even when we aren't being reamed).
Much talk of $3.50 to $4.00 being the top stability point at least through the end of September, no matter what crude prices do.
No. Just Antimatter.
I like to inject a little humor into otherwise bleak proceedings. I know Bush didn't cause the hurricane. He just looked the other way while evil corporate interests did it.
yesterday at lunch the station i normally use had reg. for $2.49 then after work - $3fucking28.
I like to inject a little humor into otherwise bleak proceedings. I know Bush didn't cause the hurricane. He just looked the other way while evil corporate interests did it.
You know, the hurricane could be considered a terrorist. Now, now, stick with me here. Vast destruction. Economic wasteland. Many poeple financial and physically ruined. I vote we changed the name from hurricane Katrina to hurricane Ansar al Islam. Let's include this hurricane into the axis of evil club.
<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050831/ap_on_re_eu/hurricane_katrina_world_hk4">Too late</a>.
"Islamic extremists rejoiced in America's misfortune, giving the storm a military rank and declaring in Internet chatter that "Private" Katrina had joined the global jihad, or holy war. With "God's help," they declared, oil prices would hit $100 a barrel this year."
That certainly would make it much less cost-effective to blow them off of the face of the Earth.
Well, when I went from $50 to fill up my tahoe to $120 to fill up my suburban, all in a matter of 3 weeks, things do get a bit more tense. Going from $200/month to $480/month for gas really does have an impact.
.19 cents overnight to $3.26
$2.87 at the place across the street. I forgot to look when I passed the Sheetz up the road, its usually much cheaper there though.
Well, when I went from $50 to fill up my tahoe to $120 to fill up my suburban, all in a matter of 3 weeks, things do get a bit more tense. Going from $200/month to $480/month for gas really does have an impact.
Oh, but according to TW, these prices are still not high enough. I don't know what your talking about. Suck it up pal. [horrendous sarcasm]According to the latest economic reports, your paying $480 a month in 2005, but that translates to $800 in 1973 dollars. So your not that bad off. Doesn't matter that you can't buy as much groceries this month as you did two months ago in 2005, where it counts.[/horrendous sarcasm]
the way these prices are going it's a definite lifestyle change.
i'm going to pick up the classifieds and look for a motorcycle.
yesterday nothing but premium here @ 3.20... this morning: nothing but regular at 3.09. I swear someone's mind gaming me.
I paid $3.09 for 87 octane today. $3.19 for Plus and $3.29 for Premium. Went up $.20 overnight.
I saw some regular for 2.99 this morning as a trekked across Illinois from my parents house. Diesal was a whole dollar cheaper in some places... and I called Mr. Saur and told him that if things keep up like this, we should trade in our car for a TDi. He yelled at me and said I should just drive less. Oh well.
Turkey Hill on the corner by my house as well as down the street from my office.
2.99 for regular, 3.19 for premium at 7:55 this morning
3.19 for regular, 3.59 for premium at 5:30 this afternoon.
I've seen higher, but the trauma of that number has been blocked from my memory.
The attached seems a bit more...accurate for some reason.
East Norriton Wawa 3.259 for Regular after midnight tonight.
Premium required a second mortgage and an indenture on your firstborn.
Well, when I went from $50 to fill up my tahoe to $120 to fill up my suburban, all in a matter of 3 weeks, things do get a bit more tense. Going from $200/month to $480/month for gas really does have an impact.
Yeah, but it isn't going to hurt the economy, right TW?
Well, when I went from $50 to fill up my tahoe to $120 to fill up my suburban, all in a matter of 3 weeks, things do get a bit more tense. Going from $200/month to $480/month for gas really does have an impact.
And now for the question everyone
loves to ask: Why oh WHY do you own a Suburban and a Tahoe? Surely you're not complaining because you do more with these vehicles than drive it, alone, to and from work, the store, etc? You must have a ton of kids to haul around every single day.
I only say this because, well, there are some really crazy people here at my office that only have one or two kids and they're griping that it costs so much to fill up their massive vehicle. Even then, usually they're the only ones driving it! They love excess, so I'm sure that these gas prices can't be hurting them that badly. Otherwise, you know, they would have purchased a reasonable vehicle. A couple of them in their F-350s do nothing more than sit behind a desk all day -- they don't even have a boat to haul with it, nor do they work construction sites. Hilarious, really.
Our local paper stated today that America would stop all oil exports in the coming future and that this could mean prices could rise to as much as about 100€ for a full refuel for the common car. This price used to be at 40€ so this would be a price rise of more than 200%... But i'll wait and see, I don't tend to believe everything I read.
By Monday, I expect to be paying $4.00 per gallon. That's going to cost me $80.00 to fill my Explorer. That's about $64.50 or thereabouts in Euros. Looks like we're all gonna have to pucker up, huh?
All the news from an energy market info provider on post-Katrina developments in this market- access may only work for a short time, but good while it lasts (one of the bonuses of working in the bulk liquids/petroleum freight markets)
Thanks for the linky. Anything in particular we should look at?
I'm gonna try to ride the bike to work at least once this week to save fuel, but things are gonna be complicated with school starting.
87 octane in the Collegeville area is 3.24 (Wawa), 3.25 (Getty) to 3.35 for the majors. No shortages, though, I presume because there's a lot of refining capacity reasonably local. Finally, a reason to be thankful for Southwest Philadelphia.
Be nice if I could ride my bike to work, but I think 13+ miles across the Mt. Misery area would probably result in medical bills (knee, hip) higher than the gas savings.
I’m in China for a few weeks here gas is 4 RMB or 50 cents a litre or $1.89 a gallon.
They have many ways of trying to save. Not all make sense to foreigners, things like coasting down hills on the freeway, having wipers on intermittent even in a down pour.
Some shut the engine off at traffic lights but VW toyed with that some years ago with the engine shutting off if at standstill and idle for more than 6 secs, I believe, and the starter linked to the gas pedal so restarts were done automatically. So that is not new.
I was thinking about the coasting bit and some European cars in the 50’s and 60’s had a selectable coasting feature built in Rover and Saab come to mind. So it follows that Chinese cars should have that feature. But of course they have copied later American, Japanese or European designs and not added that feature.
Where I am there are not many cars and mostly I see people on 50 to 90cc scooters and of course on bicycles.
Buick is big here apparently because at some time in the past and Emperor or someone in a similar position had his picture taken next to his favourite car which was a Buick.
Mostly I see lots of Audi’s , VW Passats and little Suzuki Karimuns (spelling)
That’s the gas report from China.
Thanks for the linky. Anything in particular we should look at?
The main thing about the market info providers is that they take a lot of the hype out of news and just concentrate on facts that have the power to affect or are actually affecting the oil price. They are therefore a bit cold as reading material (you won't find information here about the human aspect of this terrible disaster), but if you follow the latest stories you will get a feel as to how the situation is progressing purely from an oil and energy perspective, nothing more, hence the reason for putting it here rather than any other thread. If something either positive or negative happens regarding supply and its ability to move the price one way or another, you will get the lowdown here first.
As the providers make their money from giving this service to the market I don't expect it to last that long. With the markets shut at weekends, news tends to slow down then and pick up during the working days.
I'll repeat the news link from time to time for ease of reference, and in case not bookmarked.
Katrina: oil market news linkgood news for Georgians.......
.ATLANTA – Governor Sonny Perdue announced today that Georgia consumers will be exempt from the state motor fuel tax through the end of September. The Governor signed an Executive Order calling for a temporary moratorium on state collection of all motor fuel taxes, which will go into effect at midnight tonight.
excerpted from
www.gov.state.ga.us
We should see a 15 cents/gal decrease in prices at the pump this morning, which will make our average price in my town $2.85 - $2.89 per gallon.
Maybe other states' governors will follow suit. If he runs for re-election he's probably got his ground work done for a shoo-in. But that's another thread. :)
Thought a comparison might be interesting
Vehicle: VW Passat 1.9 GT estate - 1989 - approx 184,000 miles on clock
Trip this morning (12 miles): mainly country roads but some commuter traffic
UK MPG as per on board computer: 44.8
UK gallons/USGallon: 0.83267
Equivalent miles/per USG:37.3
Price of UK fuel today:£0.91 per litre
Litres/USGallon:3.786
Equivalent price £ per USG:£3.45
$/£ exchange rate (interbank):1.8344
Equivalent $/US Gallon:$6.32
Equivalent $/mile:$0.17 (17 cents/mile)
How does that compare with $/mile for US vehicles given higher consumption and relatively lower fuel cost?
Fuel at $3.00. USGallon and consumption of 18 MPG (US) gives 17 cents/mile - no difference(!) but think what you could be saving if you paid US price but achieved 37.3 MPG (US) - i.e. 8 cents/mile!
Katrina news linkI just paid $3.19 yesterday - $40 to fill my tank. :eek:
It does make me glad I drive a four-banger sedan -- though we still pay California prices for gasoline. In its wisdom, Sacramento has banned the sale, in-state, of diesel passenger cars, seeking to forestall pollution. I keep looking harder at hybrids...
Prices starting to ease:
Signs of life at US Gulf refineries
FLARES have been lit above five of eight refineries along the US Gulf Coast that were closed by Hurricane Katrina - indicating the facilities are preparing to restart. And industry sources say at least four of the facilities will be back online this week. Marathon Petroleum began restart procedures yesterday at its 245,000 bpd refinery in Garyville, Louisiana. Electrical power has been restored at Valero Energy's 185,000 bpd St Charles facility and hopes are to resume production tomorrow. Several other refineries are struggling with repairs and some leaks, but managers are optimistic about an early restart. Chevron said yesterday that damage to its 325,000 bpd Pascagoula, Mississippi refinery "was not catastrophic." But company executives will not make predictions on reopening as they are still trying to locate employees evacuated during the storm. Meanwhile oil and gasoline prices are dropping today on world markets as the energy industry continues to stabilise. Light sweet crude oil for October delivery fell $0.79 by midday in Europe to $66.78 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange, which was closed yesterday for the Labor Day holiday. It closed Friday at $67.57 a barrel. Unleaded gas was down just over four cents to $2.14 a gallon, while heating oil was down nearly three cents to $2.063 a gallon.
Transportation and distribution issues will keep this from lowering pump prices very much. Result? More profit for the oil companies.
This will be the result of pretty much anything that happens, in fact. Laws of supply and demand do not apply to energy prices anymore. That is to say, things that push prices *downward* for everything else affected by Supply and Demand don't apply to energy. Anything that pushes prices upward does, however.
even with the state tax lifted our gas hasn't went down but maybe 5-6 cents per gal. The other 10 cents is going somewhere... my guess is the oil companies. Oh well.
Laws of supply and demand do not apply to energy prices anymore. That is to say, things that push prices *downward* for everything else affected by Supply and Demand don't apply to energy. Anything that pushes prices upward does, however.
The word for that situation is "bubble". However, I don't expect this one to burst until 2008.
$4.50/gal by this weekend. Here we go!
if you can find it here. places are selling out left and right. i filled up last night and today i took my g/f's car to work to top it off but couldn't find a station with fuel.
I don't think the most insane evil overlord could have designed a more disastrous one/two punch for energy prices in this country.
Yes, gas prices are affecting me. I'm much more aware of each and every trip. I really spend some time organizing my time, my errands and my appointments. Before such high gas prices, I didn't think anything of running from one side of town to the other or driving a couple of hours to see family and friends.
We are also considering purchasing a hybrid this winter.
We are also considering purchasing a hybrid this winter.
Find out what kind of mileage they're getting first. I bought a used Toyota Echo for like $5300 and it gets 44mpg. I'd be really pisssed if I paid a premium price for something fancy that can't do what primitive tech can. just a thought g
guess we'll all wind up driving a computer. Sometimes I have to leave home to go to work. Hopefully soon I'll just work here. Several of my friends do now.
Even at that stage, you still HAVE to get out sometimes. The "let's take a ride" for pleasure days are over. Transportation is quickly becoming a need to only deal and not a recreation issue. I'm sure lots of us remember the go cruisin' days. They're prolly not coming back. Of couse my 70 & 1/2 Rat ain't comin back either.
$4.50/gal by this weekend. Here we go!
I filled up today at Kroger for $ 2.68. What a difference in price as opposed to the distance geographically.
Of course we DO have a great Governor, but that doesn't account for that variation. I will prolly see that in the near future here...... why?
It sure as hell ain't right for them to charge that much 'cause the supply is short. That ain't gouging, thats forcable anal intrusion. Pisses me right the F off.
Could be $4 or $5 after Rita. :(
? why are you here reading this instead of being out filling up your tank? Time is short, we are getting ready to see the largest major disaster the US has ever seen.
? why are you here reading this instead of being out filling up your tank? Time is short, we are getting ready to see the largest major disaster the US has ever seen.
Getting ready? It all started in November 2001 and has been episode after episode ever since. Don't you get it? Every time fundamentalist religion's chosen leader is brought to power, then god sends wrath upon the people. In normal times, we don't have Tsunamis, skyscraper collapses, and chains of hurricanes year after year.
Did I mention that the nation's largest earthquake in New Madrid MO that occurs about every 100 years is long overdue? If you are truly religious, then you have long recognized an MBA in power who decrees everything from his religious beliefs actually has horns and a tail. Another irony: when a person, who never did anything successful, somehow rises to power anyway, well, we have Hitler as a previous example. Did not Hitler also invade other nations without any provocation or legitimate reason? When did the largest major disaster the US has even seen really start?
Ok, tw. You just jumped the shark. Any invocation of Hitler in a serious tone of voice is an instant shark-jump.
Jump the shark, the dolphine, and the whale. TW, TW, TW. What the hell are you talking about? We're talking about gas prices and all of a sudden you onto religous chosen leaders? I'm not ever sure I understand what your point to this comment is. That when we elect a non-religious leader that God leaves us alone as opposed to a religious leader? That doesn't make sense. Purhaps I am just misreading your intent, purhaps not. I have read many of your past posts. What is your point, what is your position. I never took you as a religious zelot type TW, so this is a strange angle you've taken. And I have to agree, the Hitler reference, although this point is probly the only one that I get (sort of), was off base.
Side note: The largest major disaster? Could that be Mt. St. Helen, back in 1980? Or how about the earthquake in san Francisco back in 1901? Okalahoma bombing? 9/11? Earthquake in Alaska 1964? Colombine shootings in Colorado? Plenty of disasters to go around.
Side note: The largest major disaster? Could that be Mt. St. Helen, back in 1980? Or how about the earthquake in san Francisco back in 1901? Okalahoma bombing? 9/11? Earthquake in Alaska 1964? Colombine shootings in Colorado? Plenty of disasters to go around.
I'd like to add the Galveston hurricane of 1900.
High gas prices? Terrorist attacks? Please.
In normal times, we don't have Tsunamis, skyscraper collapses, and chains of hurricanes year after year.
Hate to tell you this, but those are very "normal" events. The peace and quiet we experienced for some years was the exception, not the rule.
You wait until mother earth gets seriously pissed off at us. With the dense population centers we have these days, stuff could be much, much worse.
You wait until mother earth gets seriously pissed off at us. With the dense population centers we have these days, stuff could be much, much worse.
Seems like many intelligent people are currently predicting a few hundred million will be killed worldwide by the coming bird flu epidemic. We'll see. The little nasties are usually the ones that do the most damage. It happened to the densely planted elm trees when dutch elm disease came along. It can happen to us. Hurricanes are nothing compared to a major epidemic. Of course, epidemics don't cause any property damage, so we've got that going for us, which is nice. :worried:
Side note: The largest major disaster? Could that be Mt. St. Helen, back in 1980? Or how about the earthquake in san Francisco back in 1901? Okalahoma bombing? 9/11? Earthquake in Alaska 1964? Colombine shootings in Colorado? Plenty of disasters to go around.
Well, 35,000 people died two years ago during the extreme heat wave in Europe. I'd call that major.
TW, TW, TW. What the hell are you talking about? We're talking about gas prices and all of a sudden you onto religous chosen leaders?
Al Kay Hall maybe said it.
However is you want to identify the source of many large disaster - as determined by the number of lives lost - religion repeatedly is a cause of so many disasterous deaths. The devil made us do it.
Gasoline? Only a trivial symptom. Notice that virtually no one has changed their driving habits.
If you don't understand where my post came from, then go back and read a post from shoot and a chapter in a well published book called Revelations. I mock thee who proclaimed for the mental midget president and brought god's wrath down upon us.
Sincerely in fire and brimstone-
TW
The point tw is making is that if religious nuts can invoke an angry God whenever something bad happens, he can do the same invoking a more rational God's reaction to heretics like Bush.
I mock thee who proclaimed for the mental midget president and brought god's wrath down upon us.
TW, you're still a dingdong (and a bigger ass than Dogberry), though occasionally you aspire to Ho Ho. Though you seldom reach it, being generally unfunny as well as a crank.
It's a questionable habit of the more stupid among the Left to tell us right-of-center Presidents are all dumb. Thus they salve their bruised egos, egos singularly prone to easy bruising -- or they hope to. But their hope is dashed: the people the Left tells us are stupid are the people
to whom the Left loses elections, and repeatedly. It's chronic. It happened again in 2004. This does not demonstrate leftist intellectual superiority, but instead the inferior quality of leftist thinking, which produces the typically inferior Leftist candidate. If you are Left, you are made perennially stupid by your lousy ideology. Seems to me you could stand to wake the hell up and commence a program of adult thinking. Funny that you won't, if you're really so brilliant as all that.
Instead of dropping my children off at day care 3 days per week, I know drop them off on Monday and pick them up Thursday.
Yes, the price of gas has affected me, but possibly not in a bad way.
The point tw is making is that if religious nuts can invoke an angry God whenever something bad happens, he can do the same invoking a more rational God's reaction to heretics like Bush.
Darn. I was hoping no one would explain it so that Urbane Guerrilla would not understand. Sooner or later, someone was going to leak the code.
Instead of dropping my children off at day care 3 days per week, I know drop them off on Monday and pick them up Thursday.
Sleepover daycare. Great idea!!
Gas, schmas ...
It's under $3 today. At the expensive, but more convenient, station on my way to work. $2.87 at the pain-in-the-ass station.
You may recall a previous post where our governor removed all tax from gas. It lowered our prices about 15 cents per gal. Yesterday he decided he is closing all county and city schools Mon. and Tues. to save gas. I'm not sure yet what my opinion is on this issue, but I must say he is definately a doer and not a talker.
I wonder if the school closing will actually save any fuel. Hell, it may make people use more.......
He said it would save half a million gallons of diesel fuel plus some on the operation of the physical plants themselves. I thought he said he was using two of the alloted snow days early. Snow days? Georgia? :mg:
He said it would save half a million gallons of diesel fuel plus some on the operation of the physical plants themselves. I thought he said he was using two of the alloted snow days early. Snow days? Georgia? :mg:
As we all know, Georgia is as subject to the wrath of God as anywhere else. I'm sure we'll be reading about the blizzards soon.
Frankly, I feel for the folks in the small, isolated communities like the ones on Colorado's West Slope or in Eastern Utah. I had the misfortune to be low on gas in Bluff, Utah a couple of days ago. $3.32/gallon, thank you very much.
Does anyone know how far Bluff is from ANYWHERE? Probably not. I can't imagine what this will do for the mentality of some folks in those isolated little Mormon towns. Wrath of God, indeed! I thought I was going to puke if I had to drive through one more teensy little town with the Bank of Zion prominently situated across the street from the local gas station with its $3.30/gallon plus prices.
Well, it did snow in Idaho today. :mg:
Scenic, but not exactly noteworthy in terms of meterological oddities. Now, if they'd had a *hurricane* in Idaho... :lol:
Snow days? Georgia?
Although it seldom accumulates, yes it "snows" here almost every year. If you are one of the lucky ones you may actually get to glimpse a snowflake or two before it hits the ground and melts. If there is the faintest hint that it WILL snow, all the schools and half the businesses close automatically. Like a bunch of kids at christmas, waiting on a gift that never comes. Funny as hell to me. And funniest thing is I'm right in the middle of it. Georgia is not prepared for snow or ice, so it only takes a little to bring power lines down, make trees fall into the roads, etc. Even knowing that, EVERYBODY just sits around and PRAYS for snow.
Although it seldom accumulates, yes it "snows" here almost every year. If you are one of the lucky ones you may actually get to glimpse a snowflake or two before it hits the ground and melts. If there is the faintest hint that it WILL snow, all the schools and half the businesses close automatically.
Damn, I miss those days. I rememeber one year it snowed on a Sunday and they automatically closed schools in Gwinnett county for Monday and Tuesday because it was so heavy. Sunday evening, the snow began to melt and on Monday morning it was gone. On Tuesday, it hit 65F outside and all us schoolkids were in heaven. It was awesome.
Of course, there is always the snow Atlanta saw in the blizzard of '94. That was true insanity for the South.
Gasoline? Only a trivial symptom. Notice that virtually no one has changed their driving habits.
This statement has been made by you many, many times and I finally figured out what it is that need to comment on. True, people need to start changing their driving habbits in order to compensate for the higher gas prices. However, the gas prices have only been really, really high for a very short time, and we've been driving the way we do for a very, very long time. You're asking people to change decades and decades of driving habbits in a few months. I also can't imagine that there hasn't been some sort of change occuring over the last few months. I myself am not as 'willey-nilley' about driving all over town for no good reason. I pick and plan my driving trips to incorporate several errands in one trip and I try not to drive all over town. We should car pool but we always can't especilly when my wife has a meeting at school till seven and I need to pick up two very tired girls from their school.
The United States is about convienience. It's convinient to have your own car. We love to drive.
Hobbs, tw isn't trying to convince people to change their driving habits. He's saying that obviously gas prices are not too high since the driving habits haven't changed yet.
If gas prices were really too high, you wouldn't say "we should car pool but we can't..." You would simply car pool because you had no other choice. If convenience is still an option, then gas must not be too expensive yet.
Relief at the gas pump is progressing visibly here in southern CA: $2.68/gallon this morning, down four cents from yesterday. Not bad for the pricey California blends, especially those oxygenated winter ones.
California gas prices act like the light curve of a Cepheid -- abrupt rise and considerably more gradual decline. Everyone in the state knows this means fat profits for the refiners. No one's yet been able to bring them to heel about this, though building a couple of major new refineries would likely help. I don't know how much of the comparatively quick price relief has a political basis this time -- but Californians also know we get none of our oil from Gulf production.
I'm just glad I heat with wood.
My peekup is in the shop so I borrowed the bro-in-laws to get some fencing. Traditionally we fill the tank on a borrowed truck... $47 dollars freaking ouch. I'm gonna drive that smugmobile in all kinds of inappropriate weather this winter.
I love those commercials w/wood, propane & electricity.
Griff, I thought wood retired. :bolt:
Yesterday, it cost me just under $30 to fill my tank...I run it almost down to E all the time. That's the first time it has cost less than $30 since August.
The pizza shop I work for just increased its delivery charge this week from $2 to $2.50. No complaints from customers...yet.
They'll bitch when it gets to $3.
I paid $2.54 yesterday for regular. (and darn good thing I did, because I bought 14.22 gallons. That is as close to sucked totally dry as I have ever gotten.)
well they are starting to come down on their prices. think the pressure the feds put on the oil companies for their "record" profits had anything to do with it? maybe/maybe not. topic could've been talked about somewhere else here, haven't had time to surf around the threads lately. anyway a quick repost of a link to help you find
Cheap Gas found gas in my area below the $2.00 mark. $1.89 to be exact....
Here in the Oxnard CA area, we're pleased to see California blends now at around $2.45/regular, down from a high of three-plus. I think the pressure plthijinx is speaking of wasn't governmental but of the general public around here -- the refiners and suppliers had the habit of ramping prices up steeply and then doing a much slower decline, to the jaundiced regard of everyone in California who burns gasoline. This time I think the refiners are paying attention to the politics of the matter, and are rolling prices back with more alacrity than the last couple of times. Good PR, I must say.
Want to save gas? Let the state whole? your DRs a while. :smack: I put 20 bucks in my p-up the morning of Katrnia, still have 1/4 tank. Filled up Honda the 9/7/05 still have 1/2 tank. Some how I don't think this's going to be a great money saver!
I look at the current level of fuel prices this way: Just because I'm being backsided with a smaller crank than before does not change the fact that I'm being sodomized.
Want to save gas? Let the state whole? your DRs a while.
Uh...wha? :eyebrow:
The state has been insisting that buster leave his vehicles sitting in the driveway for a while, as a consequence of a little misunderstanding.
I look at the current level of fuel prices this way: Just because I'm being backsided with a smaller crank than before does not change the fact that I'm being sodomized.
don't move, you'll only make it hurt worse! :lol2:
:driving: :guinness: :cop:
/snip/ a little misunderstanding....
After all the calamity did you at least get to eat the sausage?
Nope. No fridge for around 24 hrs.