I need some help
Someone in my office just commented that there are "significantly more wars now than ever before." Is this true? I seem to recall reading tat there are fewer "wars" now...
Got any idea? I can't find any information stating whether or not the number of armed conflicts is increasing or decreasing.
Well, we haven't declared war since WWII, IIRC. As for armed conflicts, I'm not sure.
there are always conflicts, chances are that your co-worker is just more aware of them now.
Kinda what Lookout said. Wars and battles have been going on for all of recorded history. There may have been fewer declared wars (ancient Roman expanions could be considered one giant war against the rest of the planet), but the amount of actual fighting between groups of people all over the world has probably stayed the same. Taking into account the current and ongoing warlord fighting in Africa, guerrillas and rebels in S. America, Islamic fundies in the South Pacific, and the hell-hole that is the Middle East.
:2cents:
If you're talking about army vs. army wars, and not tribal conflicts, regional ethnic cleansings, rebellions, and other smaller scale stuff, there are definitely less, I'd think. The smaller conflicts seem more numerous, but that could be because we have global satellite coverage, and things that might have once gone unnoticed by the public are now far more visible.
Now we have to be concerned with all of them because Urbane Gorilla wants us to play world cop. :crazy:
[flicks Bruce's nose with big black strong gorilla finger, watches nose go boing-boing]
Well, like it or not, seems to me we'll frequently be stuck with it. We don't like having our trade routes screwed with, and large enough conflicts have a way of doing that.
Heaven forbid, Walmart shipments would be delayed by Iran's navy. :eyebrow:
Glad to see that everyone is still agreeable and somewhat playful here. :lol:
I think it's probably more conflicts than ever before, as a result of growing population and dwindling resources, and less tolerance and refinement than before. Contrary to popular belief, our societies aren't changing for the better (languages, culturally, etc).
In addition, I think noodle has it right. We're getting more global news than ever before, so we're hearing more and more about these conflicts. If you were a Briton in the 1400's, you didnt know about the Apache and the Navajo conflicts.
Contrary to popular belief, our societies aren't changing for the better (languages, culturally, etc).
Who's to say that these things, particularly language, were better in previous years?
Language is language and is only good or bad if you're under the influence of prescriptivist grammarians.
Not sure who this is attributable to, "Languages are dialects with an Army and a Navy". I really like that.
Language is language and is only good or bad if you're under the influence of prescriptivist grammarians.
Ebonics.
Txtspk.
I rest my case.
Love,
Wolf
Grammar Nazi
You don't have to be a Grammar Nazi to refuse to accept ebonics and txspk. Even I refuse those. When I meet or have to deal with people who talk the "shit" lingo if I don't understand them, I just say: "I totally did not understand anything you said." and leave it to them to attempt English.
You don't have to be a Grammar Nazi to refuse to accept ebonics and txspk. Even I refuse those. When I meet or have to deal with people who talk the "shit" lingo if I don't understand them, I just say: "I totally did not understand anything you said." and leave it to them to attempt English.
Language's function is to convey ideas verbally. If you can't understand someone that you need/want to communicate with then yes that is a "Bad Thing" but it doesn't make the language they speak "Bad" and your language "Superior".
When people cannot communicate and there is sufficient pressure to do so they form a pidgin (they meld their languages until they communicate sufficiently well for the intended purpose). If the members of these two(or more) languages are in contact continually for a generation or more then their offspring will pick up the pidgin and turn it in to a full fledged language.
My point being, simply, that language evolves and standing in the way of this process does nothing but make you appear ignorant. If folks want me to list some sources for my statements here I would be glad to provide you with stacks of references and historical anecdotes.
(Note: this isn't directed at Brianna in particular -- her post made a good jumping off point for my ranting)
Ebonics.
Txtspk.
I rest my case.
...
Grammar Nazi
Ebonics or African American Vernacular English(AAVE) is as much a language as anything else. AAVE is studied by linguists. It's a dialect of
English which itself is a creolisation of languages at several points in recent history.
As far as I know Textspeak is not spoken anywhere in the world. It is an abbreviated form of the written form of spoken languages(primarily english. I've never run into it in any other language.). Textspeak is like !337 just a bastardization of the written form of a language. I'll have to ask around when schools back in session but I don't think there are many linguists that would classify these as languages.
Why be a grammar nazi if you're not writing in a formal setting?
Ebonics or African American Vernacular English(AAVE) is as much a language as anything else. AAVE is studied by linguists.
Mushmouthese is not a language, it is a symptom of a semi-educated sub-group of society. It is no more african than I am.
And AIDS is studied epidemiologists. What's your point?
Let's not take a nose dive off into the multi-culti pool here.
RE: Ebonics.
The point is, if you speak ebonic be prepared to be discriminated against. If I owned a business and needed someone to answer the phone, I would want someone who spoke English. No "This be Brianna's House of Pleasure. Who you be and who you want?" NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I wouldn't vote for anyone who spoke like that, be friends with anyone who spoke like that, hire anyone who spoke like that or even TAKE SERIOUSLY anyone who spoke like that. Prejudiced white girl? No. I just don't like people who sound like uneducated dolts. That doesn't make me 'stupid'. You can say "he be, she be, we be, they be..." all you want. I'll form my impression of you accordingly.
Mushmouthese is not a language, it is a symptom of a semi-educated sub-group of society.
And AIDS is studied epidemiologists. What's your point?
Are you expert or even remotely educated in Linguistics, Cognitive Science/Psychology or anything in that realm? Language shifts all of the time. If your great-grandparents heard the way you speak they would be appalled. Does that make them better than you? Does that make the English you speak the language of a semi-educated sub-group of society?
Let me revise my previous statement that you've taken issue with.
AAVE is studied as a language by linguists.
AAVE is studied as a language by linguists.
So what? Somebody put a crucifix in a jar of piss once and called it "art."
RE: Ebonics.
The point is, if you speak ebonic be prepared to be discriminated against. If I owned a business and needed someone to answer the phone, I would want someone who spoke English. No "This be Brianna's House of Pleasure. Who you be and who you want?"
That makes sense. Who said you shouldn't hire the best person for the job?
I wouldn't
...
be friends with anyone who spoke like that, hire anyone who spoke like that or even TAKE SERIOUSLY anyone who spoke like that.
That's pretty fucking sad. What would you say if I said the same things about morbidly obese individuals?
Prejudiced white girl? No.
Then you proceed to contradict this assertion.
I just don't like people who sound like uneducated dolts.
So, someone speaking Ebonics in any situation is an uneducated dolt. Even someone who is highly educated but when they are communicating with their family and friends speaks Ebonics so as to be easily understood and accepted to the in-group?
I'll form my impression of you accordingly.
It seems that your impression is already formed.
I won't be responding to this thread anymore. One thing I've learned is that, along with Politics and Religion, Language is something you don't talk about in polite society.
I just said I won't reply but this isn't really the same thread of discourse.
So what? Somebody put a crucifix in a jar of piss once and called it "art."
Yes, you put anything in an artistic context and it is arguably "art". However it is not "Art" as in "Fine Art" e.g. Le bassin aux Nympheas, Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, etc.
Even someone who is highly educated but when they are communicating with their family and friends speaks Ebonics so as to be easily understood and accepted to the in-group?
someone who feels they need to intentionally mispronounce words and butcher grammar to fit in with those around them may need to rethink the people they allow to surround them.
someone who feels they need to intentionally mispronounce words and butcher grammar to fit in with those around them may need to rethink the people they allow to surround them.
To the people they are communicating with it's not mispronunciation nor bad grammer it's their group's dialect of English.
But if they claim to be "American" and speak "English" why can't they speak the same American English as the rest of us? I understand regional accents, and regional dialect when certain items exist in one area but not another (e.g. grits), but I don't agree with bastardization of language just to create your own special "dialect".
To the people they are communicating with it's not mispronunciation nor bad grammer it's their group's dialect of English.
yes it is. it was an intentional choice to speak in that manner. we are not speaking about a group of immigrants that has entered the US and mixed their primary language and english (spanglish, creole). we are talking about people who chose to speak in a specific manner in order to stand out and mark their "differentness". this isn't a language that survived from the days of the slave trade and grew into what it is today. this way of speaking is highly connected and influenced by the hiphop culture.
I understand regional accents, and regional dialect when certain items exist in one area but not another (e.g. grits), but I don't agree with bastardization of language just to create your own special "dialect".
AAVE speakers have been isolated from mainstream society for the largest part of the last several hundred years. Their speech has aggregated a lot more things like "grits" than other white southern english speakers. An accent is by definition a dialect, IIRC. They didn't intentionally change their speech patterns to create their own dialect/language.
I'll point to
this article again for those that would like a decent short description of how AAVE/Ebonics was formed.
Here is a surprisingly long list of englishes.
yes it is. it was an intentional choice to speak in that manner. we are not speaking about a group of immigrants that has entered the US and mixed their primary language and english (spanglish, creole). we are talking about people who chose to speak in a specific manner in order to stand out and mark their "differentness". this isn't a language that survived from the days of the slave trade and grew into what it is today. this way of speaking is highly connected and influenced by the hiphop culture.
Too funny for words.
:lol:
"This be Brianna's House of Pleasure. Who you be and who you want?"
Actually, for that type of business, that could be quite appropriate. Having the phone answered with your slogan by your very own pimp daddy would give you a solid corporate identity.
It is often all in how it's said vs. what is said. I've attended conferences and seen PhDs who were born and raised in Brooklyn. Brilliant men, but they sound like cabbies, so you really have to listen more closely to the message to take them seriously.
Ok. It's a language. It's a language associated with ignorance, lack of education, lack of couth, and lack of class. You want to speak like a stupid hick? Go ahead. You want to speak like a stupid, know-nothing ebonic-speaker? Go ahead. It's a free country. Just don't get upset when I treat you like a moron, don't hire you, or dismiss your opinions as unlearned. PEOPLE MAKE IMPRESSIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE BASED ON A LOT OF THINGS! Speech is one of them. You don't have to like it, but it's there. Pretending like it shouldn't be an issue doesn't keep it from being an issue. You think it's "fucking sad" that I wouldn't associate with an ebonic-speaker? I think it's sad that you would. Vive la difference!
Actually, for that type of business, that could be quite appropriate. Having the phone answered with your slogan by your very own pimp daddy would give you a solid corporate identity.
Mine would be a "Maison Derriere"--a nice place with no pimps, just a hooker with a heart of gold.
Yes, you put anything in an artistic context and it is arguably "art". However it is not "Art" as in "Fine Art" e.g. Le bassin aux Nympheas, Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, etc.
I think that you have just contradicted yourself.
If your beloved AAVE is language, then piss christ is art, and there is no distinction between fine and foul.
Multiculturalism is teh l337!!!!!!11!!eleven
Are you expert or even remotely educated in Linguistics, Cognitive Science/Psychology or anything in that realm?
Actually, I have taken multiple college-level linguistic courses and have studied (although am not yet fluent in) over 5 languages. I also have over 8 college-level courses in Psychology, Educational Psychology, Cognitive Learning, and Cultural Anthropology.
Language shifts all of the time.
This is true. Language has shifted, and at certain points in history, it has shifted more quickly than others. Usually languages that utilise print as a medium shift more slowly than strictly oral languages. But that does not mean that it is getting *better* as it shifts.
If your great-grandparents heard the way you speak they would be appalled.
This is also true. Why would they be apalled, do you think?
Does that make them better than you?
Does that make them better people? No. Does it mean they were actually using a fuller, better structured and less slang based version of the language? Absolutely.
Does that make the English you speak the language of a semi-educated sub-group of society?
It means that the verbage, vocabulary and grammar used "nowadays" is less rich, and generally is not "as good" as it was even 50 years ago. Most linguists agree that the English of Shakespeare's time was probably the peak of the language, and especially American English is now in decline.
Serbo-Croatian, however, is actually splitting into two separate languages, Serbian and Croatian. It's rather like British English and American English, only they are independantly becoming more rich, we're seeing additions to the language, instead of bastardizations and laziness inherant in the dialects of American English we are seeing recently.
So overall, yeah, I think it is a reflection of the society in question. :)
From Grants link, confirming Brianna's point about their choice to be different:
AAVE's departure from Southern American English was a natural consequence of cultural differences between blacks and whites. Sociologists, linguists and psychologists, however, believe divergent development of this kind is often passive subversion. Language becomes a means of self-differentiation that helps forge group identity, solidarity and pride. In the case of African Americans, AAVE has survived and thrived through the centuries also as a result of various degrees of isolation from Southern American English and Standard American English--through both self-segregation and marginalization from mainstream society.
edit: It occurs to me that this reflects the whole "African-American as a distinctive cultural subgroup" mindset as opposed to American folks who happen to be black.
I think that you have just contradicted yourself.
If your beloved AAVE is language, then piss christ is art, and there is no distinction between fine and foul.
Art is creation and expression. It is not essential for everyday life. There are very extensive discussions of art vs. Art. I'm not sufficiently versed in art and art criticism to discuss it thoroughly.
However, art and language are very different things. Artistic merit is usually determined by conformance to a desireable style or audience perception. Language, by definition, shows consistent internal logic and structure. You can observe the speech of a group and then methodologically determine beyond doubt it's status as a language(or not a language), and whether it is a creole or a pidgin. You can classify the observed speech in a heirarchy of other languages. Linguistic analysis is concrete.
Language can also be art. Shakespeare, Chaucer, Alighieri, ad nauseum. Language as art is different to all people and there is very little universal agreement on the true masters. Is Def Poetry art? Are newspaper headlines and clever advertising tag-lines?
Artistic merit is usually determined by conformance to a desireable style or audience perception. .... Is Def Poetry art? Are newspaper headlines and clever advertising tag-lines?
Intelligence and education are usually determined by conformity to a desirable style of speaking and the perception the listener has of the speaker.
To answer the two above questions: NO and, NO.
A little experiment for you, grant. Start posting in ebonics. See what happens. Double-dog dare you.
From Grants link, confirming Brianna's point about their choice to be different:
Do you think if they were accepted in to mainstream society they would have a need to subvert the mainstream language? They didn't choose to be brought here, they didn't choose to be marginalized. So it's partly the fault of those who brought them here. And partly the fault of mainstream society for maintaining the pressures that engendered the subversion. Yes, they partly choose to maintain the AAVE language but pretty much everyone tries to maintain their cultural identity which language plays a huge part of.
I classify dialects as legitimate entirely on whether they're adding or taking away. Adding vocabulary and slang is one thing. These are words that don't exist elsewhere, and presumably there wasn't a word that effectively conveyed the same meaning before. But refusing to conjugate verbs is doing nothing but simplifying the language and communicating less information. "He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.
--cap--
A little experiment for you, <strike>grant</strike> BigV. Start posting in ebonics. See what happens. Double-dog dare you.
Here'syo' post, Brianna.
The entertaining but trivial argument about what constitutes language an' da entirely different subject o' making value judgments as ta da worthiness o' one language over da other has been amusing ta watch.
Y'all jet on an beat each other up over NOTHING! I'll just sit back here an' laugh at yo' pointless exercise. Ya' dig?
Ok, BigV. Now, was that ebonics or Uncle Remus? Or, both?
Oh, and the challenge is to "start posting"--meaning more than one. So, you'll keep posting like that, right, BigV?
I'm in a group setting once a week. There are all sorts of people in this group. One woman refers to her boyfriend as, "mah niggah." No one says anything about this, probably because the woman is black. I wonder what would happen if I referred to MY boyfriend like that...
This is true. Language has shifted, and at certain points in history, it has shifted more quickly than others. Usually languages that utilise print as a medium shift more slowly than strictly oral languages. But that does not mean that it is getting *better* as it shifts.
And is not necessarily worse.
This is also true. Why would they be apalled, do you think?
For the same reason many people are turned off by AAVE. It's different. It calls itself english but isn't the same english. My grandparents say things like, "I can't understand what kids are talking about these days", about what you would probably call mainstream english. Quite a few words have been added to mainstream english in the last 30 years alone. In the last 500 we've only LOST a handful. Many of these words have no equivalent in past dialects of english. Things as simple as Hip, Dig, Honky and Bogus.
Linguistic diversity is now being destroyed because of all of the standardization. We're heading back to another
Tower of Babel situation.
Does it mean they were actually using a fuller, better structured and less slang based version of the language? Absolutely.
Absolutely not. What you call a less slang based language was actually using the slang of THAT day. It goes in cycles. The longer a language is in existence the more rich it becomes. Did you know that most words left in English from Old English(spoken ~5th century to 1066) are 4-5 letters or less. Did all that borrowing of words cause our language to become less expressive and rich?
I suggest you take some Linguistics courses. Courses on the study of language itself not on particular languages. You'll learn that no natural language is structured better than any other language.
It means that the verbage, vocabulary and grammar used "nowadays" is less rich, and generally is not "as good" as it was even 50 years ago. Most linguists agree that the English of Shakespeare's time was probably the peak of the language, and especially American English is now in decline.
See...I'm talking about Descriptive Linguistics not English Pedant Linguistics. Apples and Oranges.
Serbo-Croatian, however, is actually splitting into two separate languages, Serbian and Croatian. It's rather like British English and American English, only they are independantly becoming more rich, we're seeing additions to the language, instead of bastardizations and laziness inherant in the dialects of American English we are seeing recently.
Can you define what differentiates additions and bastardizations and inherent laziness? It all looks like your average everyday language shifts and changes to me.
Do you think if they were accepted in to mainstream society they would have a need to subvert the mainstream language? They didn't choose to be brought here, they didn't choose to be marginalized.
try something for me, please? read the big bold numbers across the top of your calendar. does your calendar say 1795? 1895? 1995? mine says 2005.
is america perfect? hell no. will it ever be? hell no. are there racists out there? yep. and there always will be. but the vast majority of americans are not going about their day looking for ways to marginalize minorities. unfortunately, when a group of people decides to take on an a behavior for the sole purpose of being different than the mainstream then they are, in effect, marginalizing themselves.
an african being kidnapped, thrown on a ship, and being sold into slavery has absolutely NOTHING to do with the high school sophomore who chooses to say "i be, you be, he be". nothing. to believe that there is a tie between the two is just pointless delusion.
Here'syo' post, Brianna.
The entertaining but trivial argument about what constitutes language an' da entirely different subject o' making value judgments as ta da worthiness o' one language over da other has been amusing ta watch.
Y'all jet on an beat each other up over NOTHING! I'll just sit back here an' laugh at yo' pointless exercise. Ya' dig?
I'm having fun. It's not any more pointless than WoW (I just hit 60 on my first toon).
Why isn't grant posting in ebonics?
try something for me, please? read the big bold numbers across the top of your calendar. does your calendar say 1795? 1895? 1995? mine says 2005.
is america perfect? hell no. will it ever be? hell no. are there racists out there? yep. and there always will be. but the vast majority of americans are not going about their day looking for ways to marginalize minorities. unfortunately, when a group of people decides to take on an a behavior for the sole purpose of being different than the mainstream then they are, in effect, marginalizing themselves.
an african being kidnapped, thrown on a ship, and being sold into slavery has absolutely NOTHING to do with the high school sophomore who chooses to say "i be, you be, he be". nothing. to believe that there is a tie between the two is just pointless delusion.
My point here is that in the past they WERE pushed to this behavior and they embraced this behavior. Now it's a part of their culture and getting people to speak like you want them to because YOU say so is nearly impossible.
I agree that they are self-marginalizing now. There are many opportunities for anyone in this country as long as they'll fit through societal filters. But despite the best efforts of black leaders the message of being able to achieve and valuing achievement hasn't penetrated the black community very well yet.
The other thing is our perspective in the U.S. is pretty unique on some things. For instance, do you have any idea how many languages and dialects are present in an area the size of the United States in other parts of the world? There are probably as many dialects in natives of Switzerland as there are in the entire U.S. In germanic countries they try and get everyone to learn Hoch-Deutsch so that all germanics can communicate in a common language. This is similar to what we do with Standard American English.
Why isn't grant posting in ebonics?
It's not appropriate to the audience for one thing. For the other I don't speak AAVE, although I can understand pretty much all of it I've ever heard.
It's not appropriate to the audience for one thing. For the other I don't speak AAVE, although I can understand pretty much all of it I've ever heard.
Ah, yes. We have to be "down" with the "homies" to speak this delicious bit of Americana. I understand. I'm with a group once a week. A lot of them speak...something...I don't know what it is, and I can't understand it. One of the BIG words that is tossed about in this group is "niggah". That one I do understand, in my whitebread manner. It's used in a variety of ways by these folks. One woman refers to her boyfriend as "mah niggah", but she probably gets away with it because she is black.
I'd get shot for 'nigga'. I've run into a group of pretty ghetto kids at school that _hate_ the in-group 'nigga'ing they believe it engenders disrespect so they prefer to use the tried and true 'brotha' which is the same thing without the negative connotations.
The good vibes are starting to get around more and more. Hopefully in a couple hundred years we'll have a few more things ironed out.
I'd get shot for 'nigga'. I've run into a group of pretty ghetto kids at school that _hate_ the in-group 'nigga'ing they believe it engenders disrespect so they prefer to use the tried and true 'brotha' which is the same thing without the negative connotations.
The good vibes are starting to get around more and more. Hopefully in a couple hundred years we'll have a few more things ironed out.
You're school friends might be a little more EDUCATED than the people in my particular group. See? Education brings about enlightenment which is then expressed by people having and using BETTER COMMUNICATION. Wow.
Can you define what differentiates additions and bastardizations and inherent laziness? It all looks like your average everyday language shifts and changes to me.
"He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.
Prime example. I think the biggest problem for me is when people try to substitute Ebonics for situations when Proper American English is more appropriate - high school ENGLISH essays, etc.
This be Brianna's House of Pleasure.
What was that phone number again?
You're school friends might be a little more EDUCATED
I can't do it. I just can't.
I can't do it. I just can't.
Right, Steve. "Your"---Grammar Nazi! I made a typo--a mistake. Wow. You never do when posting. You'RE a Grammar Nazi. I'll remember that.
And you'll NEVER get the number to Brianna's House of Pleasure, either! Ya wank.
But despite the best efforts of black leaders the message of being able to achieve and valuing achievement hasn't penetrated the black community very well yet.
BS. that was the message that was shouted and pounded into skulls throughout the early and mid 1900's - and it worked. black americans valued education, hard work, and perseverence and they achieved what others thought to be unachievable. there was a change in the late '70's through the '90's. instead of work hard and become apart of the american mainstream culture many chose to differentiate themselves and become separate. fine that is there choice, albeit a bad choice. now having bad grammar and runaway mispronunciation is a sign of being a part of something separate from mainstream america and it is valued by the participants. there are consequences to this choice - one being that many will refuse to take you seriously.
imagine how far Martin Luther King, Jr and Malcolm, among others, would have been received if instead of "I have a dream..." we heard "I be dreamin dat my lit'l niggas not be judged on da cola o day skin"
as far as the multiple languages in europe bit... having been there last week i can tell you that there are more than i can count. so what? those each have a historical basis. geography once dictated the language. each area had its own and people didn't travel as we do today. that means that there are many many languages within relatively small geographical areas. there is a historical cause. that is not the case in america. ebonics hasn't been handed down for centuries. it is a relatively new bastardization of english.
"He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.
Prime example. I think the biggest problem for me is when people try to substitute Ebonics for situations when Proper American English is more appropriate - high school ENGLISH essays, etc.
You've given an example. I'm not quite sure what you mean with your example, other than different languages are different. I agree that when you're being educated in an SAE system using an alternate language is not appropriate.
BS. that was the message that was shouted and pounded into skulls throughout the early and mid 1900's - and it worked. black americans valued education, hard work, and perseverence and they achieved what others thought to be unachievable. there was a change in the late '70's through the '90's. instead of work hard and become apart of the american mainstream culture many chose to differentiate themselves and become separate. fine that is there choice, albeit a bad choice. now having bad grammar and runaway mispronunciation is a sign of being a part of something separate from mainstream america and it is valued by the participants. there are consequences to this choice - one being that many will refuse to take you seriously.
A few improved their station, most didn't. New efforts need to be made. I don't want to argue this particular aspect. It's been done to death.
imagine how far Martin Luther King, Jr and Malcolm, among others, would have been received if instead of "I have a dream..." we heard "I be dreamin dat my lit'l niggas not be judged on da cola o day skin"
Obviously,so what is your point?
as far as the multiple languages in europe bit... having been there last week i can tell you that there are more than i can count. so what? those each have a historical basis. geography once dictated the language. each area had its own and people didn't travel as we do today. that means that there are many many languages within relatively small geographical areas. there is a historical cause. that is not the case in america. ebonics hasn't been handed down for centuries. it is a relatively new bastardization of english.
AAVE has a historic basis starting about 500-600 years ago. Where's the lack of historic cause? The reason AAVE is so widespread now is that for the last 200 years people have been pretty mobile. Now with media outlets as pervasive as they are today it spreads even more and has a better chance of sticking around.
It's funny because using bastardization meaning "to debase or corrupt" is a relatively new change in SAE.
Now you're going to come back and say they make a choice to be different. The more I think about this issue the more it becomes apparent that they really don't want to be a part of American mainstream, I've never heard these people beg to be homogenous. Yeah, they complain and fight and grumble about being kept down but, do they really want to be let up? It seems the ones that want up and are willing to work for it have the ability. Let them make their choice, that's the great thing about being human -- there are always choices.
A few improved their station, most didn't.
you are saying that most black americans are no better off than their predecessors 50 + years ago. that is just ignorance. enough said.
and the idea that people who are utilizing ebonics don't want to be "let up"... what a load of crap. these are the same people complaining about being held down. you can't be held down if you aren't trying to stand up to begin with.
you are saying that most black americans are no better off than their predecessors 50 + years ago. that is just ignorance. enough said.
What I'm saying is that few have taken hold of all of the opportunities available to them.
and the idea that people who are utilizing ebonics don't want to be "let up"... what a load of crap. these are the same people complaining about being held down. you can't be held down if you aren't trying to stand up to begin with.
That's only true of literally being held down. It's a convenient fiction so that they can excuse themselves for not even trying to stand up in the first place. It's a similar argument that obese people and school kids tend to use their lack of self control and discipline.
Cool statistics on socio-economic comparison of minorities to non-hispanic whites.
Fair Data
Some surprising results.
What I'm saying is that few have taken hold of all of the opportunities available to them.
how do you figure? have you even looked at the make up of american businesses today compared to 50 years ago? of course, you aren't likely to find any success stories who will speak to you in ebonics... outside of sports or hiphop.
Cool statistics on socio-economic comparison of minorities to non-hispanic whites.
Fair Data
Some surprising results.
And this has
what to do with ebonics?
Ebonics to me is along the same lines as Scientology.. whatever turns you on, but that doesn't mean it necessarily holds water.
dare I say it?
...............like a Tanzanian irrigation ditch?
oooohhhhhh - I am evil.............
how do you figure?
How do you figure they have made full use of their opportunities?
have you even looked at the make up of american businesses today compared to 50 years ago?
No, have you?
I never said that they weren't better off today than 50 years ago. I only said that not many of them have done all they could to rise higher. Things have improved greatly for them but mostly in the arena of opportunities.
Just so we don't have to go over this again:
[list]
[*]Blacks are better off in general than they were in the past.
[*]Blacks still have a long way to go to achieve a level on par with whites.
[*]Blacks are better represented in business than they were 50 years ago.
[*]Placeholder for a couple of other things I probably forgot.
[*]lookout123 is very nearly illiterate.
[*]lookout123 doesn't understand the concept of context.
[/list]
Can we now get back to the interesting aspects of this argument and leave the hostility behind us ( or at least find some statistics to back up the arguments so that we can have some closure to the hostilities at some point )?
And this has what to do with ebonics?
Nothing, it is in response to l123's tangent.
Ebonics to me is along the same lines as Scientology.. whatever turns you on, but that doesn't mean it necessarily holds water.
Tell that to Noam Chomsky.
You do realize that you're basically insulting every language on the planet, right? Ebonics got a bad name in the 90's when some jackass thought it would be a good idea to teach it, or accept it, in school.
What if I went to some Hill-Town in Tennessee and started forcing those people to speak SAE? I'd be dead in a second, yet we go into the inner city and do the same thing and expect to be lauded as saviors of all that is Good and American.
My only hope with all of this shit is that I can convince one person that AAVE is just as valid as SAE and is only frowned upon because our society tends to frown upon the people who speak it.
Tell that to Noam Chomsky.
You do realize that you're basically insulting every language on the planet, right? Ebonics got a bad name in the 90's when some jackass thought it would be a good idea to teach it, or accept it, in school.
So you're saying even though it is just as valid a language as any other, it shouldn't be taught in schools?
My only hope with all of this shit is that I can convince one person that AAVE is just as valid as SAE and is only frowned upon because our society tends to frown upon the people who speak it.
Have fun with that.
So you're saying even though it is just as valid a language as any other, it shouldn't be taught in schools?
Of course it shouldn't be taught in school. Do we teach Redneck American English in school? Should we? No fucking way.
Teaching the society's dominant language is important, people already know how to speak at home and on the streets.
Have fun with that.
Yeah, I've come to realize that the Cellar is largely populated by insular, narrow-minded, dim-wits. Just about to give up on any half-way intelligent conversation here. I know it's the internet, but I thought maybe the Cellar could be different.
Actually I've found a large portion of the Cellar to be very bright, well educated, and open minded. Just becasue their opinions differ from yours, and they may not have taken as many linguistics couses as recently as you, does not indicate anything to the contrary - It just emphasizes your narrow mindedness for not accepting that yours is not the only version of the truth.
Okay, I get the idea that people have different accents and speech patterns and such based on the subculture they grew up in. I do, too. But those things don't have an accepted written form. We spell them phonetically, or as apostrophe'd English. I tell people I'm "fixin' to" do things all the time. But when written, colloquiallisms like "fixin' to" are obviously shoddy and unacceptable for anything more important than instant messenger chat.
It's racism to say that Trevor from Compton should be entitled to have written tests and schoolwork translated from "Jack and Jill went up the hill" to "Jack be runnin up dat hill ovah deah wit Jill" just because that's how they say it in his neighborhood. If some white kid from the Ozarks wanted every vocal inflection and mispronunciation he uttered written down so he wouldn't have to learn that nasty grammar stuff, the debate would last all of 2 seconds.
Exactly.
This entire thread since we hijacked it has been about spoken english. There's nothing "wrong" with your language as long as your intended audience/social-group understand what ideas you're trying to convey.
Get this:
For African American students whose primary dialect was Ebonics, the Oakland resolution mandated some instruction in that dialect, both for "maintaining the legitimacy and richness of such language [sic]... and to facilitate their acquisition and mastery of English language skills." Teachers were encouraged to recognize that the "errors" in standard American English that their students made were not the result of lack of intelligence or effort, and were not "errors," but due instead to the fact that the dialect which they normally use is grammatically different from SAE. Rather than teaching standard English by proscribing non-standard usage, the idea was to teach standard English to Ebonics speaking students by showing them how to translate expressions from AAVE to standard American English.
Yet for some reason, they dont have a special grading curve for students in Hill-town, Tennessee, who speak, ... what language again?
I dont understand this.....
wow. I finally agree with Grant for agreeing with Noodle. Well said bof y'all.
Why does everything have to be "validated" these days? The reason AAVE (any patois, for that matter) is frowned upon is because it's lazy English. I commonly use "fixin' to" when talking about an action I am imminently going to perform. That's because I'm in the habit of doing so, and everyone in my family said the same thing when I was growing up. But if I go to Minneapolis, Philly, or NYC and tell someone "I'm fixin' to go to the Wal-Mart for some peanuts," I would be immediately labelled as a hick.
Guess what? That's okay. I don't care. You sayin you don't want none a these peanuts? Aight.
But if I ever get to the point where my well-being is threatened by some yankee's opinion of my fixin to do's, just take me out and shoot me like a dog.
Actually I've found a large portion of the Cellar to be very bright, well educated, and open minded. Just becasue their opinions differ from yours, and they may not have taken as many linguistics couses as recently as you, does not indicate anything to the contrary - It just emphasizes your narrow mindedness for not accepting that yours is not the only version of the truth.
I've been trying to put my perspective, the perspective of the level of linguistics I'm familiar with, across so that someone can say "Yes that makes sense from that perspective".
[list]
[*]Use of Ebonics/AAVE has negative social connotations.
[*]Ebonics/AAVE is used primarily by those of lower socio-economic levels.
[*]Ebonics/AAVE has a strong cultural and historic background.
[*]Ebonics/AAVE is as valid a language, from a theoretical linguistics perspective, as Standard American English or Hoch-Deutsch or Martian or whatever.
[/list]
Those are the four points I wish everyone could understand. This thread got kind of out of hand, I'm not even sure where we started out, and I apologize for getting pissy and insulting folks.
Get this:
Yet for some reason, they dont have a special grading curve for students in Hill-town, Tennessee, who speak, ... what language again?
I dont understand this.....
Yeah, pretty fucked up, they wouldn't want to hurt anybody's feelings.
I hear that the next initiative is to have Ebonomatics for those that make errors in mathematics because it's not in terms they use at home (no I won't give any of the tasteless examples that pop immediately to mind, involving dime-bags and crack rocks).
Someone in my office just commented that there are "significantly more wars now than ever before." Is this true? I seem to recall reading tat there are fewer "wars" now...
Got any idea? I can't find any information stating whether or not the number of armed conflicts is increasing or decreasing.
Should we add the AAVE/Ebonics War, and call a truce? ;)
Why does everything have to be "validated" these days? The reason AAVE (any patois, for that matter) is frowned upon is because it's lazy English. I commonly use "fixin' to" when talking about an action I am imminently going to perform. That's because I'm in the habit of doing so, and everyone in my family said the same thing when I was growing up. But if I go to Minneapolis, Philly, or NYC and tell someone "I'm fixin' to go to the Wal-Mart for some peanuts," I would be immediately labelled as a hick.
Guess what? That's okay. I don't care. You sayin you don't want none a these peanuts? Aight.
But if I ever get to the point where my well-being is threatened by some yankee's opinion of my fixin to do's, just take me out and shoot me like a dog.
I speak the same way my family does in rural Missouri when I'm back there. I've been in NY for 8 years so I speak, largely anyway, the way they speak here. It helps that since elementary school I've been pretty strongly pressured to develop a Region-Neutral Dialect.
Language is one of the most beautiful things in our world and it sucks to see people shit on the way people tell each other things like "I love you" and "Pass 'da peanut buttah I'm'a fixin' ta' have a sammich".
I'm sorry Mr.Noodle I think I caught an early revision of this post in one of my other replies. Still...good message.
Should we add the AAVE/Ebonics War, and call a truce? ;)
I think that's a good idea. I've got an idea for a new thread though so keep your eyes peeled.
lookout123 is very nearly illiterate.
lookout123 doesn't understand the concept of context.
i'm not sure which college you are attending, but in most of the more reputable ones they don't teach insulting someone as an effective means of getting your point across. but if you do feel the need to insult me, come up with something better you son of a motherless goat.
[list]
[*]Use of Ebonics/AAVE has negative social connotations.
[*]Ebonics/AAVE is used primarily by those of lower socio-economic levels.
[*]Ebonics/AAVE has a strong cultural and historic background.
[*]Ebonics/AAVE is as valid a language, from a theoretical linguistics perspective, as Standard American English or Hoch-Deutsch or Martian or whatever.
[/list]
Pretty much my point. You want to call it a language, go ahead. Just don't mind if I call you a dumb jerk for speaking it. THAT was my point!
i'm not sure which college you are attending, but in most of the more reputable ones they don't teach insulting someone as an effective means of getting your point across. but if you do feel the need to insult me, come up with something better you son of a motherless goat.
It's over bud. Anyway, I believe I apologized.
http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/
What kind of american english do you speak?
<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
65% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
20% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
10% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
5% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>
<div align="center">
<a href="http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/">What Kind of American English Do You Speak?</a>
</div>
80% General American English
5% Dixie
5% Midwestern
5% Upper Midwestern
5% Yankee
<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
70% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
15% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
10% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
5% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>
Strange I'm from Missouri and have no Midwestern expressions?
I call Soda/Pop/Coke: Soda or Soda Pop
I say "Catta Corner" or when I'm around the part of my family with a Missourian Drawl I say something kind of like "Catter Corner" or "Catte' Corner" where the ' is a glottal stop.
taking this one atm, will edit with results
http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=12776102516259233005
Your accent is nothing exceptional; it may be "colorful" or you might just be from Southern California. You also don't catch some grammatical points, and are thus probably one of the people contributing to the death of the subjunctive, which is just as well. More than half of test-takers fall into this category; no one, as of this writing, has scored higher than 85% on the orthophony aspect of the test.
My test tracked 2 variables How you compared to other people your age and gender:
You scored higher than 47% on orthophony
You scored higher than 4% on eugrammacy
********************
Actually, when I wasnt in England, most of my youth was in California and Arizona (which is all Eastern Californian anyways), so I'm not surprised I have a California Dialect.
You scored higher than 13% on orthophony
You scored higher than 69% on eugrammacy
75% General
10% Upper Midwestern
5% Midwestern
5% Dixie
5% Yankee
<table style="color: black;" align="center" border="1" bordercolor="black" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="400"><tbody><tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#a8ffb3">
Your Linguistic Profile:
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#d9ffd8">75% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#a8ffb3">20% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#d9ffd8">5% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#a8ffb3">0% Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#d9ffd8">0% Upper Midwestern</td></tr></tbody></table>[center]
What Kind of American English Do You Speak?[/center]
60% General American English
20% Dixie
20% Yankee
0% Midwestern
0% Upper Midwestern
I guess that's what happens when you have a mother from Tey-xas and a father from New Joisey... :)
...and...
Stereotype-shatterer
You scored 60% on orthophony and 100% on eugrammacy!
Despite your nonstandard way of speaking, you seem to appreciate some very fine points of grammar. Next time the New York Times has an opening for an editor. . . .
How you compared to other people your age and gender:
You scored higher than 73% on orthophony
You scored higher than 93% on eugrammacy
Stereotype-shatterer
You scored 16% on orthophony and 100% on eugrammacy!
Despite your nonstandard way of speaking, you seem to appreciate some very fine points of grammar. Next time the New York Times has an opening for an editor. . . .
My test tracked 2 variables How you compared to other people your age and gender:
You scored higher than 0% on orthophony
You scored higher than 66% on eugrammacy
I always suspected I was wierd... :worried:
... pretty much everyone tries to maintain their cultural identity which language plays a huge part of.
This is a relatively recent viewpoint. I know a lot of people who are VERY proud of their ethnic identity, and don't speak their mother (or father, depending on culture) tongues.
Your Linguistic Profile:
60% General American English
35% Yankee
5% Dixie
0% Midwestern
0% Upper Midwestern
What's interesting is that my primary language acquisition occured in the Midwest (Chicago Suburbs) but I was raised by Eastern parents.
<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
55% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
30% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
15% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
0% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>
<div align="center">
<a href="http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/">What Kind of American English Do You Speak?</a>
</div>
Of course, my accent is Northern Appalachia, so I don't know if people really hear Yankee...
What's interesting is that my primary language acquisition occured in the Midwest (Chicago Suburbs) but I was raised by Eastern parents.
Heh. I was raised in DC by Midwestern parents, and I also ended up with 0% Midwest.
Apropos of this thread, I received this from xoxoxobruce the other day ...
<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
65% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
15% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
10% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
10% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>
<div align="center">
<a href="http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/">What Kind of American English Do You Speak?</a>
</div>
So, where exactly
is Ohio, where I grew up, if not in the Midwest? :puzzled:
This is a relatively recent viewpoint. I know a lot of people who are VERY proud of their ethnic identity, and don't speak their mother (or father, depending on culture) tongues.
I suppose so. I hadn't really looked back at things very well. I'm not sure where this new trend came about or if it really is a trend that applies to the majority of ethnic groups. (This is one of my complaints about sociology and social science, very little is concrete. Nobody knows anything, it's all hypthetical or anecdotal evidence)
Another strong factor, I believe, is that Ebonics and Spanish speakers tend to remain in, or strongly connected to, a social group who's primary language is not SAE. Latinos tend to stay closely tied to their families in Latin American countries through the Spanish language so it remains important for them to know it. For urban Ebonics speaking blacks, unless they move to a non-Ebonics speaking area and are forced to interact daily & relatively intimately, they will continue to speak Ebonics and pick up rudimentary(hopefully at least) SAE skills. That is if both groups are accepting of the others.
(i'm quite sleep deprived so if none of that made sense, it's either because I'm retarded or not all here right now)
Apropos of this thread, I received this from xoxoxobruce the other day ...
If Sammy says that to the Snakes on the Plane I'll be able to die happy.