Originally posted by Griff
I see it as simple collusion meant to guarantee market dominance for the big three. I wonder what tw thinks?
Geo Metro - one of the more reliable cars (somewhere around 60 or 70% on the reliability scale where best vehicles are 100%). High problem areas were electrical, exhaust, body integrity, and hardware. Noisey, rough ride, high gas mileage. Sold in 1995 with a 3 or 4 cylinder engine that only did 55 and 54 Hp per liter - which is why they had so little acceleration. According to Consumer Report tests, the 4 cylinder, 70 Hp Metro averaged only 29 MPG compared to 31 MPG for the 106 Hp Honda Civic and 30 MPG for the 100 Hp Toyota Corolla.
There was a 'strange bird' Geo Metro sold in limited quantities that featured a Brazilian Diesel. Owner claimed up to 50+ MPG when following interstate trucks which is understandable when one understands difference between diesel and gas engines. That understanding is part of the "hydrogen" discussion.
There was no
Chevy Impala anywhere in mid 1990s. However you could get a 350 V8 in the Chevy Caprice that did 260 Hp or in the Chevy Suburban that did 200 Hp. World standard engine technology dicated that 260 Hp was provided by 3.8 V-6; 200 Hp would be a 3.0 liter V-6.
Hydorgen Fuel: Hydrogen must be manufactured from some energy source. What would that energy source be? We use gasoline and diesel which provide high 'energy per pound'. Hydrogen just does not provide that. Hydrogent has other more serious problems.
Hydrogen gas handling is extremely difficult. Hydrogen is a small atom meaning that material, joints, and tanks that don't leak propane can still leak hydrogen at dangerous levels. For example, copper pipes would leak hydrogen. Problem made more dangerous since hydrogen leaks cannot be smelled AND hydrogen burns in a flame that cannot be seen. You would not know a hydrogen fire exists until you had walked into it and started burning.
I have done extensive work with gas processing. We test with helium using leak testing equipment that measures one part in 10 to power 8. These $10,000+ leak checking devices must be applied to anything constructed or repaired involving hydrogen - including valving that requires much tighter machine tolerances. In short, a hydrogen distribution system is well beyond anything currently used AND hydrogen still requires some fuel to create hydrogen. All that heavy, extraneous support equipment makes the lower 'energy per pound' hydrogen even worse as a transported energy source.
Radical "new breakthroughs" are not radical or new. Take nuclear power, as example. It still was a steam power plant using the same steam driven electric turbines. We simply replaced a coal furnace or gas driven turbine with nuclear power heating. Same must be expected of this 'hydrogen' research. It will not be some breakthrough technology. It must be a upgrade or variation of existing technologies. Only 'Ronnie Raygun' leaders believe that any new technology is completely new and radical. Hydorgen can address part of the problem. But as a new fuel source for radical new vehicles .... let's get real here.
Step up to Ballard in Vancover. Hydrogen fuel cell is a rechargeable battery - not an engine. We won't store and distribute massive hydrogen stores to large, high pressure tanks in cars. The car creates hydrogen from its standard energy systems, and uses the energy when required. The car must still create hydrogen from a high 'energy per pound' fuel source. The problem is not new energy sources. The problem is that we are probably using less than 20% of the thermodynamic energy in gasoline - we are that grossly inefficient.
Our problem is not our fuel source. Our problem is efficient application of energy.
Honda and Toyota's so called major innovation is nothing more than an adaptation of an American innovation created before WWII - the diesel electric locomotive. It is not radical, breakthrough technology. It is an upgrade of current technology.
Far more energy from fuel because the locomotive applies energy of diesel fuel better(more efficiently) to changing loads. That is what Honda and Toyota are doing with hybrids - adapting an old, well understood technology to automobiles.... finally. The bottleneck in hybrid auto technology is the battery. Even lithium batteries will not have the necessary 'Kwatt per pound' necessary to create the efficiencies we require. Ah-h-h-h but such efficiencies were suggested in the Apollo moon program that stored energy in .... hydrogen based fuel cells ... 1960 technology.
Breakthrough research from Ballard some years ago made major efficiency improvements in fuel cells. Ballard's technology breakthrough literally took fuel cells half way to being practical in one major step. Therefore so many quickly became so excited over hydrogen. Honda purchased Ballard products for experimental research in some secluded field somewhere - with a special 'no-reverse engineering' clause in the sales agreement. We know that Toyota and Daimler (Mercedes) were also doing same many years ago. We also don't hear of anything coming from GM - a company run by MBAs.
So what is this government research project? I can make no sense of its real objectives. It sounds more like free money to Ford, GM and Chrysler to force them to do this research. Previously, such projects have stood accused of being siphoned off for other purposes at GM. Ford under Jacque Nasser probably was stifling engine research at Ford (as he also stifled 70 Hp per liter engines in new Ford models). This would have been just another point of contention between Nasser and William Clay Ford that resulted in arguements so violent that security was called on multiple occassions. Now government is paying Ford , GM, and Chrysler to perform the research they did without government money in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s?
Where are the American automakers such as Honda and Toyota? What kind of research money ignores the industry innovators?
Until details are provided, I really cannot judge this hydrogen project. But it sounds like corporate welfare since it does not address the real problem in automobiles - application of energy in an efficient manner. We don't have a problem with energy sources. We have a problem with consuming too much energy to perform too little (Bush does not like to hear that probably because his campaign bribers don't like that concept). We have a serious efficiency problem. Where hydrogen may be important, both Honda and Toyota are years ahead in the necessary technologies. So the government will throw money at domestic companies to perform research that MBAs did not appreciate years previously?
Throwing money, like a grenade, at a problem never solved problems. Those problems exist because top management feared innovation. Where hydrogen shows promise, Honda and Toyota have long since been doing the research. Where money is thrown to solve problems, well, did we not go through that nonsense with Reagan - Star Wars, Hypersonic airplane, Space Station Freedom - and how many other boondoogles from his State of the Union address?
When Kennedy decided to shot for the moon, first, he talked reality with those who 'come from where the work gets done'. Since Kennedy had intelligence, he could understand what was and was not possible. When Reagan wanted to emulate Kennedy, he consulted wackos such as Oliver North and Edward Teller. We now have a low intelligent president. Will he too just through money wildly at problems because he does not understand those 'who come from where the work gets done'?
(BTW, quantum mechanics is a significant part of understanding the problem. Hydrogen fuel cells involve separating and rerouting different parts of the hydrogen atom.)
Again, details of this hydrogen project appear to be muddled by politicians and reporters who don't understand the concepts. IOW we don't know what the hydrogen research will address. But we do know that it must be part of an upgrade from current technologies. Most promising technology to make hydrogen fuel part of the solution - hybrid automobiles that can therefore apply high 'energy per pound' fuels such as gasoline and diesel with greater efficiencies.