What if I've been wrong about W?
We've got huge peaceful and maybe effective demonstrations hopefully driving the Syrians out of Lebanon. Egypt may actually get a competitive election. Wierd. Not that I really go for democracy but maybe some governments can be changed without a bloodbath. Iraq is still a shitstorm though. This is as close as a cellarite ever gets to admission of wrongness, enjoy the spectical.
PS. George do not take this as a go ahead to get more Marines killed you AWOL punk.
Lebanese chick protesters are really hot. Be on the right side of this one! :P
somehow i was expecting them tolook more like Klinger.
My, oh, my.
These are liberated arabic women! And they ROCK!
We've got huge peaceful and maybe effective demonstrations hopefully driving the Syrians out of Lebanon. Egypt may actually get a competitive election. Wierd. Not that I really go for democracy but maybe some governments can be changed without a bloodbath. Iraq is still a shitstorm though. This is as close as a cellarite ever gets to admission of wrongness, enjoy the [color=Red]spectical[/color].
PS. George do not take this as a go ahead to get more Marines killed you AWOL punk.
It's 'spectacle', ZippyG
I saw an
article recently which posed the question "What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?" It's a nice little piece by a "skeptic" which suggests that perhaps Bush's ends (a vote in Iraq) justifies his means (an unprovoked, unjustified attack on a sovereign nation which posed no threat to us, nor was it even close to being the worst human rights offender). I found that particular brand of tripe to be unswallowable.
There is much evidence that voter turnout was due to
coersion. The country is far from safe, and thousands of men, women and children have
died. That's to say nothing of the
castration of our civil liberties here at home, the prisoners tortured and imprisoned indefinitely without trial...
If you had a low opinion of W, I'd say you weren't wrong. He earned it. I am absolutely not suggesting that
nothing good has come of this war, but the bufoonery of the execution has made the price far dearer than it needed to be.
My, oh, my. These are liberated arabic women! And they ROCK!
With that much, I certainly agree. Yowza.
uh do you mean that they are hot? rock.. hot... dropping it
no really, I think it's great what's happening there.. and like in the Ukraine. peacful protests that actually accomploish something, great to see. and I am all in favour of womens rights, and it seems to my american ass that there needs to be more of that in the world
If you had a low opinion of W, I'd say you weren't wrong. He earned it. I am absolutely not suggesting that nothing good has come of this war, but the bufoonery of the execution has made the price far dearer than it needed to be.
I was in the nothing camp. Now at least something may come of it.
Yowza doesn't even touch that.
You'd best be very careful, Jimbo. ;)
You'd best be very careful, Jimbo. ;)
I'm sorry, the response we were looking for was "fuck you, lumberdave."
You still qualify for the lightning round, though, so stay tuned and we'll be back after these important messages.As proven by the experience of the French Revolution, the Weimar Republic, and the short lived Constitutional monarchy in Russia in 1916-7, sometimes a shaky neophyte democratic government can lead to complete disaster and genocide. One has to remember that a true democracy can only survive in an economic and political climate that allows it. As seen with the French in 1789/80 what appeared to be bloodless, resulted in the executions of hundreds of people and the Napoleaonic wars. So it is to be seen what happens to these "democracies". Wait in the wings well prepared for the worst.
-Walrus
What the fuck does the Syrians assassinating a popular Lebanese politician leading to mass protests have to do with Bush? Precisely Fuck all. What does the new hope in the Israeli/Palestinian peace process have to do with bush? Fuck all. They're both the product of internal, home-grown forces. Want to see what happens when that works? Look at Ukraine at the moment. Want to see what happens when it's forced by foreign interests? Look at Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan at the moment.
The net effect of the invasion and occuption of Iraq so far has been to drive Iran closer to the edge, Syria off the deep end, deepen the hate in Saudi and lay the seeds for a gorgeous little civil war if they ever pull out of Iraq and maybe even if they don't.
sometimes a shaky neophyte democratic government can lead to complete disaster and genocide.
we can only keeper our fingers crossed and hope, right walrus?
What the fuck does the Syrians assassinating a popular Lebanese politician leading to mass protests have to do with Bush? Precisely Fuck all.
Maybe
this will have that intended effect, and since France is involved you can be in favor.
True 123 we can hope, but definately don't count on GW Bush just crossing his fingers. If he and his buddies do anything, they'll be putting their fingers all over these events.
-Walrus
There's a huge number of people who won't ever give Bush credit for anything, at least not while he's in office. They'll blame him for bad stuff, but not for good stuff. That's ok, as long as the outcome is the same.
What kills me is the number of people who think that the people of the middle east don't want to be free. "Bush is forcing democracy down their throats," is as arrogant a statement as can be made. What human doesn't want basic freedom? And if you think that a democratic middle east isn't vital to our own security, you're nuts. We need to apply all the pressure we can to the thugs that run those countries until they finally give up terrorism as an international policy.
As an aside, I wonder if the reason libs want to downplay the impact the American president has on world affairs is that we'd have to blame Clinton for N. Korea and al Qaeda.
"Bush is forcing democracy down their throats," is as arrogant a statement as can be made.
Only if you can't detect irony.
What kills me is the number of people who think that the people of the middle east don't want to be free. "Bush is forcing democracy down their throats," is as arrogant a statement as can be made. What human doesn't want basic freedom?
The problem is that there are many flavors of democracy, and America's execution is far from perfect, particularly in Iraq. Bush basically invaded without provocation, created an unstable area where nobody is safe from death or dismemberment, and said "You're free!" Then he gave them a list of pre-selected people and said "Vote for one of these guys." Then he forced them to vote, on pain of losing their food rations.
It's not that he's forcing democracy down their throats, it's that he's forcing this shameful mockery of democracy down their throats without bothering to find out what they want, and asking them to be grateful for it.
You say some people won't give Bush credit for anything, and maybe that's true, but many people won't hold him responsible for anything, and that's worse given his actions. I'm speaking as a person who had no strong feelings about Bush until he
earned the strong feelings.
But he didn't cause those areas to be unsafe and unstable - they already were. I'll admit that it's awfully presumptuous of us to go in guns blazing without being specifically asked, but who's going to do the asking? The people who aren't even allowed to watch anything but state-run TV? That is, if they even have electricity. We were set up as the so-called defenders of freedom 60 years ago because no one else was willing to do it. Just because everyone else has decided to hide behind the skirts of the impotent U.N. doesn't mean that our role has changed (whether this is a good or bad thing, I don't know). The only difference between freeing the middle east without their consent and entering the European theater (without provocation) in WWII is that it was difficult for the French to be snidely anti-American from the bottom of a urine-filled German bomb crater.
Bush ain't perfect, but he's ours, and he represents more than his personal faults. I felt the same way about Clinton. I detested him personally, but nobody else better say anything bad about him, because he's the American president. Sometimes the pres is kind of like your drunken cousin. You have to back him in a bar fight because he's your cousin, not because he doesn't deserve to get his ass kicked.
Iraq was safer and more stable than most dictatorships before the invasion.
Nazi Germany was safer and more stable before we invaded them, too.
UT *everyone* has been telling Syiria to get the fuck out for a very long time. The only thing that's changed is that the locals are very, very pissed off.
Mr noodle, would that be the thugs the US props up, or the ones it's ignored the bloodshed of for decades? I get confused with these things.
They don't LOOK pissed off.
it's both, jaguar. accompanied by thugs who have surfaced without our help and possibly thugs we helped get into power in the first place. The fact remains that they need to go, and civil uprisings only do so much without the muscle to back them up.
just because there's someone in the white house who will back up his talk, people get all miffed.
What do you think they're protesting about UT. Think about it.
Civil uprisings sure haven't worked in Georgia and Ukraine of late.
Yet somehow despite all the cowboy bullshit about backing his talk, I don't see abhrams rolling though Harare or Cairo or Riyadh........There's a guy in the whitehouse with the intellectual capacity of a rotten tomato having his stings pulled by a lobby of arrogant, neoimperialists who are having a whale of time trying out some of the most destructive foreign policy of recent times and raping the treasury for their own benifit in the process, I think that might be why people are miffed. You honestly think the whole freedom&democracy&candy for all thing is more than Karl Rove with his hand up bush's ass don't you? amazing.
You want to talk about the US instilling democracy in the middle east? Take a look a Lebanon, very topical. The US has been trying to supress democracy in lebanon, they're worried that the if people freely voted they might vote for an organisation that provides media, schools and hospitals - hezbollah. That's how serious the US is about freedom and democracy. Wake the fuck up, it's South America all over again, all that's changed is the decade. Death Squads, installed dictators, it all sounds so familiar.
Jag, the old game is out and a new one is afoot. Your old media BBC still thinks the old game is on.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050302/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_mideast
Bush Demands Syria Withdraw From Lebanon
On Syria, though, there appears to be no give in the hard U.S. position that it must withdraw its troops and security forces from Lebanon and permit the neighboring Arab country it has long dominated to run its own political affairs.
Speaking at a community college in Maryland, Bush demanded Syria give democracy a chance to flourish in Lebanon.
With France solidly aligned with the United States — in contrast to France's dissent from the Iraq war — Bush said, "The free world is in agreement that Damascus' authority over the political affairs of its neighbor must end."
A senior U.S. official, flying home from London with Rice after a conference to assist the Palestinians, said the administration was seeking pressure on Syria from other Arab states. The official spoke only on condition of anonymity.
In Damascus, however, the Syrian government went on the offensive in its controlled press, calling Rice haughty and arrogant for describing the ruling Baath party as "out of step with the growing desire for democracy in the Middle East."
What. Side. Are. You. On.
You honestly think the whole freedom&democracy&candy for all thing is more than Karl Rove with his hand up bush's ass don't you? amazing.
How very 2004 of you. Let's move the fuck on dot org from this tired "Bush is dumb" routine. He's dumb like a fox, and while the sheeple bleat about not getting their way in the election, he is getting things done, cowboy-style or no.
I banged so many metaphors into each other in that sentence, my head hurts. Oh well, that's why it's called quick reply. no editing here, baby.
Nazi Germany was safer and more stable before we invaded them, too.
Which, true or not, is a non-sequitur. There are no parallels between the US rationales for war for Iraq and Germany.
'my old media'. Huh?
Whose side am I on? The Lebanese. The US aren't interested in helping them, just an excuse to lay into Syria, good thing they're stretched so far in Iraq already or i'm sure they'd be 'liberating' the palce by now. France has interests in Lebanon of its own.
Speaking at a community college in Maryland, Bush demanded Syria give democracy a chance to flourish in Lebanon.
As long as people we don't like get elected. What exactly is this new game you're going on about? Looks like the same old duplicity to me.
Getting what done exactly noodle? He's managed to trash the transatlantic alliance. That was impressive. Presiding over some impressive spending too, I wish I had the balls to blow out such a deficit, I'm sure he's proud of that one. He sure is getting stuff done, gotta respect a man that can barge ahead, regardless of facts, logic, history, diplomacy or prudent economic policy, I'm sure that appeals to your kind of intellect.
Let me explain where I am on this and maybe Jag will get it. Bush made a huge stupid gamble when he invaded Iraq. In the final tally it will probably mean many more millions enslaved by Mullahs. However! Lebanon, which has more liberal roots than much of the middle east, should grab this moment. Yes, Bush hates Syria. This should embolden the Lebanese people. Bush is crazy enough to back up his words, Lebanon is counting on it. The most likely outcome is Syria backing down. It is time for pragmatism. Don't let UT's triumphalism sour you to the potential of this moment. Root for Lebanon.
I am but I don't see what may happen as to any notable degree, the result of Bush's actions. Bush can't back up his words, there isn't the military capacity.
Right, there is NO connection whatsoever between millions of Iraqis holding up ink-stained fingers on Aljazeera and the Lebanese public cheerily fomenting change in the streets. It's all coincidence, along with the Egyptians, and the Saudi women possibly getting a vote, these things would have happened in isolation too.
Also, if you cover your ears and sing real loud the monsters can't get you in the dark.
What the fuck does the Syrians assassinating a popular Lebanese politician leading to mass protests have to do with Bush?
The George Jr propaganda machine is that good. Many Americans foolishly think the elections in Iraq were the reason for these Lebanese demonstrations. Notice how the world revolves around American perspectives? But the incentive for those demonstrations was the equivalent of Martin Luther King being shot combined with a Lebanese fascination with the Orange Revolution in Ukraine.
This assassination has been rather galvanizing. This may be the first time that Druze, Shia, and Maronites are fully in agreement. Not because Syria executed the assassination. That again is American propaganda again not supported by any facts. This Lebanese leader resigned only because he could not lead an independent Lebanon. That surprise (virtually not reported in the US) combined with his murder galvanized all parties in Lebanon to a patriotic fever. A fever they saw reported extensively in Ukraine. What is happening in Lebanon is very similar to the popular uprising in Ukraine. Ukraine (not Iraq) is what got the Lebanese attention - once we eliminate White House propaganda.
Right, there is NO connection whatsoever between millions of Iraqis holding up ink-stained fingers on Aljazeera and the Lebanese public cheerily fomenting change in the streets. It's all coincidence, along with the Egyptians, and the Saudi women possibly getting a vote, these things would have happened in isolation too.
Also, if you cover your ears and sing real loud the monsters can't get you in the dark.
Lebanese holding up printed English signs. When there are anti-American demonstrations, we claim they are government controlled or the result of outside agitators. When there are anti-government demonstrations, we deny that we in any way funded these groups.
I am pretty sure we didn't have anything to do with Hariri's death, but considering how far we are stretching the definition of anti-terror operations, you have to wonder if we're back to our old tricks.
There's a lot of room for funding black-bag operations in budgets with no supervision.
Isn't the Ukraine that place where the American stooge beat the Russian stooge? :gray:
...you have to wonder if we're back to our old tricks.
Well inside the realm of possibility.
Isn't the Ukraine that place where the American stooge beat the Russian stooge?
And they all have real long and similar names making a long story that much harder to comprehend. Simpler to call one pro-western and the other pro-Russian. Or even easier - one is George Jr's man; the other is Putin's man. Forget the other candidates that only muddy the story. Then one need not read a long and rather 'Clancy like' story.
The climax in Ukraine was a nation wide demonstration equivalent to a Civil Rights March in Washington or another that was against the War. The Orange Revolution of Ukraine resurfaces in Lebanon.
I love you guys, I really do. But you really should get together on your alibis:
The George Jr propaganda machine is that good. Many Americans foolishly think the elections in Iraq were the reason for these Lebanese demonstrations. Notice how the world revolves around American perspectives?
Lebanese holding up printed English signs. There's a lot of room for funding black-bag operations in budgets with no supervision.
D'ya follow? Either it has
nothing at all to do with the US, and we should be ashamed that we think it's all about us -- or, it was
entirely orchestrated by the US using secret black budgets but not enough supervision to tell them to re-write the signs in Arabic.
Wouldn't it be easier to hold your hands over your ears and sing?
I love you guys, I really do. But you really should get together on your alibis:
D'ya follow? Either it has nothing at all to do with the US, and we should be ashamed that we think it's all about us -- or, it was entirely orchestrated by the US using secret black budgets but not enough supervision to tell them to re-write the signs in Arabic.
Wouldn't it be easier to hold your hands over your ears and sing?
Forgive me for being suspicious, I forgot that we have
never before meddled in any other countries internal affairs with dirty tricks. My bad. :cool:
D'ya follow? Either it has nothing at all to do with the US, and we should be ashamed that we think it's all about us -- or, it was entirely orchestrated by the US using secret black budgets but not enough supervision to tell them to re-write the signs in Arabic.
Rich has too many good reasons to suspect underhanded US involvement. I don't see any direct involvement. IOW Rich and I are not monolithic. We are both examining a very complicated situation with different perspectives.
How complicated? Well first off, Syria is a primary source of American intelligence in the region. Go figure. Furthermore, Condi Rice is quite skillfully playing the situation as a subtle threat to that same Syria. Go figure. Situation cannot be comprehended in a two dimensional 'good and evil' perspective. But to appreciate the primary inspiration for a demonstration of united Maronites, Shia, and Druze (who ten years ago would have thought it possible), one must look to Ukraine and its thrilling Orange Revolution.
Neither George Jr nor the Iraqi election was the inspiration for that crowd. Maybe George Jr ordered the assassination? Don't give George Jr credit for being that skillful. But George Jr's skillful propaganda machine is using half truths and events in Lebanon to promote themselves domestically - because so many Americans don't follow world news. The administration spin actually has people believing this was all due to US 'pushing democracy down the Middle East throat'. That would be a silly 'good and evil' interpretation. The world, especially in Lebanon, is far more complex.
What a paradox: the Bush administration is remarkably stupid and incompetent - except for when spinning the American public, at which time they are remarkably brilliant and talented.
Kind of like how Rich's "perspective" is 180 degrees different from your own, but he's not "wrong"; because even though he's just throwing out a bunch of stuff to see what sticks, without any facts, he's anti-administration - and that makes him not-wrong, by definition.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;sessionid=LUFMIH5Z1FHEPQFIQMGCM5OAVCBQUJVC?xml=/opinion/2005/03/01/do0102.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/03/01/ixopinion.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=20282
Mark Steyn explains it:
Consider just the past couple of days' news: not the ever more desperate depravity of the floundering "insurgency", but the real popular Arab resistance the car-bombers and the head-hackers are flailing against: the Saudi foreign minister, who by remarkable coincidence goes by the name of Prince Saud, told Newsweek that women would be voting in the next Saudi election. "That is going to be good for the election," he said, "because I think women are more sensible voters than men."
Four-time Egyptian election winner - and with 90 per cent of the vote! - President Mubarak announced that next polling day he wouldn't mind an opponent. Ordering his stenographer to change the constitution to permit the first multi-choice presidential elections in Egyptian history, His Excellency said the country would benefit from "more freedom and democracy". The state-run TV network hailed the president's speech as a "historical decision in the nation's 7,000-year-old march toward democracy". After 7,000 years on the march, they're barely out of the parking lot, so Mubarak's move is, as they say, a step in the right direction.
Meanwhile in Damascus, Boy Assad, having badly overplayed his hand in Lebanon and after months of denying that he was harbouring any refugee Saddamites, suddenly discovered that - wouldja believe it? - Saddam's brother and 29 other bigshot Baghdad Baathists were holed up in north-eastern Syria, and promptly handed them over to the Iraqi government.
And, for perhaps the most remarkable development, consider this report from Mohammed Ballas of Associated Press: "Palestinians expressed anger on Saturday at an overnight suicide bombing in Tel Aviv that killed four Israelis and threatened a fragile truce, a departure from former times when they welcomed attacks on their Israeli foes."
No disrespect to Associated Press, but I was disinclined to take their word for it. However, Charles Johnson, whose Little Green Footballs website has done an invaluable job these past three years presenting the ugly truth about Palestinian death-cultism, reported that he went hunting around the internet for the usual photographs of deliriously happy Gazans dancing in the street and handing out sweets to celebrate the latest addition to the pile of Jew corpses - and, to his surprise, couldn't find any.
Why is all this happening? Answer: January 30. Don't take my word for it, listen to Walid Jumblatt, big-time Lebanese Druze leader and a man of impeccable anti-American credentials: "I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, eight million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world. The Berlin Wall has fallen."
Right, there is NO connection whatsoever between millions of Iraqis holding up ink-stained fingers on Aljazeera and the Lebanese public cheerily fomenting change in the streets.
No. There isn't. One is about holding people to ransom with food stamps, the other is a reaction to a very public assassination and a rapidly developing country sick of war and foreign intervention. Lebanon is a very, very different place to Iraq in so many ways it's not funny, it's more like Berlin than Bagdhad, you need to understand that. I don't think you do, if you do, you're choosing to ignore it because it gets in the way of this odd idea that somehow, the US is responsible for the uprising.
No disrespect to Associated Press, but I was disinclined to take their word for it. However, Charles Johnson, whose Little Green Footballs website has done an invaluable job these past three years presenting the ugly truth about Palestinian death-cultism....
Ah, the great far-right circle-jerk. The telegraph has it's uses, cheap insulation, mopping up spills, starting fires but don't make the mistake of reading it. That said, I cannot honestly believe a newspaper would refer to LGF, the mind boggles. Lets not notice the death of Arafat and events since then, I'm sure that had
no impact whatsoever on the situation
at all in Israel.
What a paradox: the Bush administration is remarkably stupid and incompetent - except for when spinning the American public, at which time they are remarkably brilliant and talented.
Paraphrasing isn't your strong point. There's a combination of factors, a timied, totally whipped US press busy licking bush's asshole and I must admit, very skilled spin from Rove. By creating support based on image andmore abstract values like morals, there are a number of figures, most of which the public wouldn't even recognise and some of whom who have no left since their ideas have failed who have been free to execute some very extreme policy under a pliant president who is willing to be led by those who surround him.
There are a lot of intersting things going on in the ME at the moment, some good, some bad, most of which will come to nothing more than token moves. There's a fair chance that Syria will pull out and maybe things can stay on track in Israel, time will tell but if you think the US is resonsible for either, you're kidding yourself.
What a paradox: the Bush administration is remarkably stupid and incompetent - except for when spinning the American public, at which time they are remarkably brilliant and talented.
It is pretty hard to believe that someone could be skilled in one area and incompetent in others.
That's right Jag - progressive Lebanon, backwards Saudi, mixed Egypt - it's all coincidence. Like when Libya gave up its WMDs on the heels of the Iraq invasion, just coincidence.
Happy people holding up their finger proudly to show they've been... held up for food stamps? What shit are you eating over there? Wouldn't it be easier to hold your hands over your ears and sing, than to make this kind of shit up?
As far as newspapers referring to LGF, in this case Steyn is noticing that LGF is NOT circle-jerking, which is why the information is notable. When the chamber doesn't echo, that's news too.
BTW Steyn is a Canuck I think, writing in the Telegraph, so this strange US media bias doesn't apply in his case.
Like when Libya gave up its WMDs on the heels of the Iraq invasion, just coincidence.
No, there was a direct link there although once again, it wasn't straightforward, the issues to do with the massive nuclear weapons manufacturing equipment trading ring, based on the US's great allay, Pakistan had a role to play. Saudi and Egypt are paying lip service to the US, when either government changes I'll admit you have a point. When. How did the US instigate what is now happening in Lebanon? Some kind of vague 'oh well, the US was democracy, let's all suddenly get really angry and kick out the Syirians'? Or maybe, just maybe, the assassination of a popular political figure provided the catalyst that brought long-held anger to the surface. The US doesn't want democracy in Lebanon, it'd be a disaster, Hezbollah would do very well.
Steyn is noticing that LGF is NOT circle-jerking
I want some of what you're smoking. A not-tiny newspaper referring to a far-right highly questionable blog at all is worrying, considering it legitimate is beyond the pale. I'm well aware he's writing for the telegraph, a second rate hard right concervative newspaper with a long history of going for emotion over facts, it's Sunday Edition in particular is used in some journalism courses as an example of how not to write articles.
BAGHDAD (IPS/GIN) - Voting in Baghdad was linked to food rations, many voters said after the Jan. 30 poll.
Iraqis said that their names were marked on a list provided by the government agency that provides monthly food rations before they were allowed to vote.
“I went to the voting center and gave my name and district where I lived to a man,” said Wassif Hamsa, a 32-year-old journalist who lives in the predominantly Shia area Janila in Baghdad. “This man then sent me to the person who distributed my monthly food ration.”
Mohammed Ra’ad, an engineering student who lives in the Baya’a district of the capital city, reported a similar experience.
Mr. Ra’ad, 23, said he saw the man who distributed monthly food rations in his district at his polling station. “The food dealer, who I know personally of course, took my name and those of my family who were voting,” he said. “Only then did I get my ballot and was allowed to vote.”
“Two of the food dealers I know told me personally that our food rations would be withheld if we did not vote,” said Saeed Jodhet, a 21-year-old engineering student who voted in the Hay al-Jihad district of Baghdad.
However, in a January 29 panel on CNN's International Correspondents program, Julian Manyon, Britain's ITV Baghdad correspondent, revealed that Western TV reporters covering the election were being “limited to filming at only five polling stations”, out of 5244. When the list of “approved” polling stations was published, Manyon added, reporters found out that “four of those five polling stations are actually in Shia areas, and therefore by definition will shed very little light on whether Sunnis vote or not”.
I don't have to make anything up, I just have to read real news, not the thinly vieled lies fed to you by major networks.
Well the nice part is that we only have to wait for another round of history to play itself out. I'm content to let another year pass while we see what happens.
easier than answering isn't it.
Let's review your "answer" then:
- Blogs are biased because they aren't journalists.
- US network news, full of credentialed journalists, is biased because its viewers sometimes draw conclusions you don't agree with.
- Opinion pieces in righty newspapers are wrong because the journalists you like say the paper is bad.
Very nice. How many hours of network news do you watch? Can you name the US networks?
I'd like to know what jag reads.
Let's take the spin away and look at that again.
LGF is a right wing hate site.
US network news, full of credentialed journalists, do not stand up to this administration. Once like CBS, ABC, CNN, Fox and MSNBC, I don't really watch TV at all but I do keep a weather eye on their websites.
Opinion pieces in second rate right-wing newspapers that refer to dodgy blogs are not a good source to back up your opinion. You should check before you choose to assiciate yourself with such a source, that's the same newspaper that might have endangered the health of an entire generation with it's baseless claims about the MMR vaccine, ultrasound, passive smoking and that's before we get to the xenophobic, racist rantings of Charles Moore and Harry Cummins amongst others on it's editorial pages. The paper you feel is a good source has published such gems as:
All Muslims, like all dogs, share certain characteristics
and
Christians are the original inhabitants and rightful owners of almost every Muslim land and behave with a humility quite unlike the menacing behaviour we have come to expect from the Muslims who have forced themselves on Christendom, a bullying ingratitude that culminates in a terrorist threat to their unconsulted hosts.
not to mention being the mouthpiece of some of the most creative intel service lies:
the Iraqi leader had been providing al-Qaeda … with funding, logistical back-up and advanced weapons training. His operations reached a “frantic pace” in the past few months
That is what I said.
My question was:
How did the US instigate what is now happening in Lebanon?
Sorry, I thought you were aware of the neocon argument made as early as 1998 that fomenting Democracy in Iraq would lead to similar fomentation in other Middle East countries through example.
oh please. Do you honestly think that was the catalyst?
"Let's take the spin away and look at that again.
LGF is a right wing hate site...."
Physician, heal thyself.
The Lebanese had plenty of cause to do this before January 30th... but didn't. Why not?
Don't like right-wing secondary papers, here's the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58850-2005Feb27.html?sub=AR
If a Middle East transformation begins to gather momentum, it probably will be more messy, and the results more ambiguous, than those European revolutions. It also won't be entirely Bush's creation: The tinder for ignition has been gathering around the stagnant and corrupt autocracies of the Middle East for years. Still, less than two years after Saddam Hussein was deposed, the fact is that Arabs are marching for freedom and shouting slogans against tyrants in the streets of Beirut and Cairo -- and regimes that have endured for decades are visibly tottering. Those who claimed that U.S. intervention could never produce such events have reason to reconsider.
"Let's take the spin away and look at that again.
LGF is a right wing hate site...."
Physician, heal thyself.
What's the spin in that sentence?
Don't like the WaPo? How about yor own Times?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1508354,00.html
President Bush can certainly claim some credit. Two years ago he set out to make Iraq “a dramatic and inspiring example for other nations in the region”. The rosy predictions of his neoconservative supporters have not been realised, but Iraq has become a symbol of the power of the people over the gun.
Even Walid Jumblatt, the Lebanese Druze leader whose fiefdom was once pounded by a US Navy battleship, has conceded that his criticism of US policy was misplaced.
“It is strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq,” the man leading Lebanon’s uprising against Syria said. “I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, eight million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world,” he told The Washington Post.
Poppycock. Balderdash. Right-wing rubbish. American media buggery. A hand puppet of the Administration. A blog in newsprint. The reporter is Karl Rove in drag.
(Brit school uniforms sacrilege for Muslims? I could get behind that idea. I for one was nearly caned for forgetting to wear my school tie. Of course that was 1978. Now non-tie-wearing IS my religion!)
Democrat (but pro-war) blogger
Michael Totten has an interesting POV:
No one was able to predict the Arab street revolution in Beirut at the time of the invasion or the election in Iraq. The events are related, but their relationship is not a cause-and-effect one.
It’s more nuanced and slippery and unpredictable than that. The fact that some upheaval would erupt somewhere in the Middle East was predicted by lots of people. This wasn’t like predicting “it is going to be warm somewhere in the world at some point in the future.” Any idiot can do that. Rather, it was like predicting a general warming trend in the face of skepticism. There hasn’t been any successful new revolutionary turmoil in the Middle East since the 1970s, and that was in Iran. The Arab Middle East has been revolution-free for longer than that. Yet all of a sudden – bang - right after the Iraqi election, almost on schedule, revolutionary street-level fury toppled a government.
He's cautionary:
I’m not saying we don’t deserve some of the credit. We do. The demolition of Saddam Hussein’s Baath regime and the free election that followed sent a powerful shock wave through the region that changed the emotions, the politics, and the psychology of its people. But we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking we control the chaos that we have unleashed.
Might I propose that there is no black/white answer here?
I suspect some people in Lebanon were inspired by Iraq. Some were inspired by the Ukraine. Some were just pissed at the Syrians. Some were probably out looking for a good excuse to gather in large numbers and get drunk.
To try and link a historic event like this to one cause or even the events of the last year is really over simplifying things.
Did the Iraq election have some bearing on events? Probably. Would the protests have taken place if the US hadn't gone into Iraq? Who knows. It's all speculation.
I am willing to concede that some of this positive revolution is probably indirectly due to America's actions in Iraq... but I can't attribute it to Bush's imaginary competence in spreading democracy.
It's a bit like my good friend who got divorced recently... his wife cheated on him, she moved in with the guy, and then she gave my friend custody of the four kids, telling the kids that she didn't want them in her life anymore. Pretty fucked up.
As a result of this, my friend and his kids are all closer to each other than they ever were before, and only a few months later they are a much happier family unit. They have also become much closer to their extended family. Do I credit the ex-wife for making the family happier? No. It would be stupid to say her actions didn't inadvertently conribute to the change, but that doesn't justify her original intent, nor her actions. Praise would be highly misplaced.
The Lebanese had plenty of cause to do this before January 30th... but didn't. Why not?
Er....noone had assassinated a major politician who was very popular? Did he not notice a bit of a fraccas there in the 60, 70s and 80s too...
Praise would be highly misplaced.
Oh, I see.
You're wondering whether the Bush admin. had any idea what the effect of their actions in Iraq would have on the rest of the middle east and whether they anticipated all of the positive that has come about lately.
In that case, please, do carry on. :)
[QUOTE] It's all speculation./QUOTE]
Since when has that stopped us?
True. :biggrin:
I just thought you boys might come to blows.
I suspect some people in Lebanon were inspired by Iraq. Some were inspired by the Ukraine. Some were just pissed at the Syrians. Some were probably out looking for a good excuse to gather in large numbers and get drunk.
However the Iraqis also could be inspired by the Lebanese and Ukrainians. There is one common theme expressed by all Iraqis of the various demoninations. They all want Americans out.
These are liberated arabic women! And they ROCK!
And they will be hunted down, raped, tortured, and killed the next time the pendulum swings the other way. Which is likely to be sooner rather than later. So it goes.
And they will be hunted down, raped, tortured, and killed the next time the pendulum swings the other way. Which is likely to be sooner rather than later. So it goes.
This is Lebanon, not Saudi, do some research.
Watching jag and UT argue makes me horny.
OK, say Bush knew exactly how this was going to play out and maidens would be strewing flowers and palm fronds.
Did he have the right to kill 20k/120k people to make it happen? Did he have the right to force his mid-east vision on Iraq?
Did he have the right to kill 20k/120k people to make it happen? Did he have the right to force his mid-east vision on Iraq?
No and No.
Just in case you were wondering,
Bush is not the Antichrist.Just in case you were wondering, Bush is not the Antichrist.
From the site
Even if President Bush had his head blown off on live Televison, then rose from the dead, the world, would reject him as The Christ!!!
Actually, %49 of the United States would welcome him.
An
interesting article on MSNBC looks at what the writer sees as "What Bush Got Right." I don't necessarily agree with it (I believe that Bush's motives were nefarious, his execution criminally inept, and the benefits a happy side effect which were dearly paid for), but it does make a lot of interesting points.
Bush never accepted the view that Islamic terrorism had its roots in religion or culture or the Arab-Israeli conflict. Instead he veered toward the analysis that the region was breeding terror because it had developed deep dysfunctions caused by decades of repression and an almost total lack of political, economic and social modernization.
This isn't a Bush original, but he's the first *president* to form a middle-east policy based on the concept. We're still in the 'killing terrorists' phase, but when the trash has been taken out, you'll see the work that's been going on underneath - the hospital and school and infrastructure building.
Lib media doesn't cover that, because it doesn't feed into their carefully constructed anti-Bush propoganda machine. Look at the title of the MSNBC piece - "What Bush Got Right". My, how very magnanimous of them. Oh well, maybe if they dip their toes far enough into the pool of actual impartial journalism, they'll decide they like it. This article is a start I suppose.
Don't think for a second, though, that a paradigm shift isn't happening in news media. The idea that the NYT can say whatever it wants because, by God, it's the new york times, is passe. During every editorial staff meeting dedicated to combing over an 'anonymous' submission for something to use against Bush, there are 5,000 bloggers networking with what used to be big-media-only sources and getting the facts out there. Yeah, you have to pick through some twaddle to find the truth, and there are more loonies than real researchers. That's ok, conservatives have 40 years of practice trying to mine a nugget of truth out of a pile of shit every time they turn on network news or pick up a newspaper, so the blogosphere is easy.
he's so cute! Next he'll be telling us how bush earnt his place at Yale.
Newsweek just had an article last week talking about how modern Iraqi women are increasingly in danger from Iraqi fundamentalists. Many have been killed or threatened. The point was made that while Saddam was
a brutal dictator, women are NOW actually more repressed than they were under his regime. Two steps forward . . .
Slaves had it great. Three squares and a roof over their head guaranteed. Job protection for life. Nobody would want to give that up.
Lest we forget, that was part of the argument back in the day.
To quote Rumsfeld:
"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things," Rumsfeld said. "They're also free to live their lives and do wonderful things. And that's what's going to happen here."
Free people are free to commit crimes. The fundamentalists are exercising that freedom.
Don't think for a second, though, that a paradigm shift isn't happening in news media.
Yeah, those 'hard news' stories about the AARP promoting gay marriage and shafting veterans were pretty interesting. :cool:
i was just thinking. wouldn't it be great if we had an election coming up to focus allof our vitriol?
Slaves had it great. Three squares and a roof over their head guaranteed. Job protection for life. Nobody would want to give that up.
Lest we forget, that was part of the argument back in the day.
Lest we also forget, black people today are still not socially or economically equal in our society. For all the freedom and equality we preach and try to impose on other nations our own house is not in order.
Sorry.. I had to.
Lest we also forget, black people today are still not socially or economically equal in our society. For all the freedom and equality we preach and try to impose on other nations our own house is not in order.
Our situation is a bit too complex to just toss out a phrase like that. There are people trying to help and people trying to hinder from both sides of the fence.
But I agree that we
really need to get our shit in one sock before we take off to try to fix other people's problems.
Sorry.. I had to.
Utter. Fucking. Gold.
*golf clap*
Lest we also forget, black people today are still not socially or economically equal in our society. For all the freedom and equality we preach and try to impose on other nations our own house is not in order.
I get confused. I drive to work through Chester, the poorest city in PA, and I see most of the people are black. Then at work, my inspector, my boss and the CEO/CFO are black. Then I drive back through the slums to go home. It certainly shows both ends of the spectrum. :confused:
I get confused. I drive to work through Chester, the poorest city in PA, and I see most of the people are black. Then at work, my inspector, my boss and the CEO/CFO are black. Then I drive back through the slums to go home. It certainly shows both ends of the spectrum. :confused:
No it's just that the successful (corporate ones, not the thugs) have sold out to Da Man(tm) and have become oreos.
Or joined a union where they are treated equally. ;)
Not if they work for Wal Mart.
Wal Mart is all about equality - tearing down small communities, white or black, and making them all slums!
Ah, true, my mistake.
Edit:
Funny that that and
this should crop up at the same time:
Wal-Mart Jobs and African-American Dreams
Throughout his life, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. made vital connections between the struggle for civil rights, freedom, economic justice and equality. Dr. King's 1967 "Poor People's Campaign" was a heroic effort to bring all these issues together with a powerful call for family-supporting wages that could build ladders from poverty to prosperity.
It was the dogged pursuit of that vision that motivated sanitation workers in Memphis to fight for a living wage by forming a union. When Dr. King was assassinated, he was supporting those striking workers, whose quest for dignity was captured in their campaign slogan "I am a man."
Dr. King's lessons still resonate, with sometimes painful relevance today. As the automation of the 1960s swept away jobs and living standards, he decried workers being pressed into low-wage jobs with longer hours and no protections. Yet even Dr. King could hardly have imagined that such standards would become the business model for the world's largest employer: Wal-Mart.