Where do you draw the line......
In response to Cowhead's thread, I thought it may be interesting to discuss a different topic. The opposite of how far will you go...exactly how much will you 'take'?
Where do you draw the line - the deal breaking, relationship ending, cataclysmic end of a 'romance' moment?
For me, it's dishonesty - pure and simple - of any flavor - any 'reason'. You lie, you're gone. I even THINK you lie, and you're put on notice and extremely thin ice (basically it's a one foot out the door and I'm just getting ready to kick you the rest of the way out).
And there's no second chance.
Harsh? Perhaps, but definitely justified.
I'm with you on that one, I think once you break someones trust, you can never fully get it back.
I have to agree. I dont care what else you do just let me know what the hell your doing. Also make sure that my underwear and socks are washed. everything else I can handle. Just make sure you do the things your are supposed to do and let me know what your doing, or who for that matter
.
Now would you rather know these things outright, or are there things you'd prefer were "omitted" from general knowledge?
Okay, that's not worded very well. Here's a living, breathing example.
My last serious girlfriend was not thrilled that I occasionally sought out and thoroughly enjoyed smoking the pot. (She had done it before but didn't like it all that much.) She knew I very rarely do some other substances too, and really didn't appreciate that. But as long as it did not "control my life or our relationship," she didn't care. Eventually she said if, say, I was out taking bong rips and was not a) cheating on her, b) doing something stupid to risk death or c) calling her and saying stupid shit I might regret the next day, she didn't need (nor preferred) to know. It was the trust we afforded each other, and it was very comforting to have that buffer.
There were things I knew she was doing but opted not to know. My justification was that all those nights of worrying and fretting were better reserved for times when they really mattered, and the lack of stress was refreshing. We agreed that if the situation was really awful, we'd disclose and discuss. I equivocated my less-than-occasional gambling excursions with those nights she spent at the strip joints blowing money with her girlfriends. Harmless fun that only stresses those on the other end.
Of course, you must have this trust to begin with, and either of us could very easily have cheated or done whatever, really. But it wasn't necessary. There was no need to avoid each other, no reason to be ashamed. Liberating, in a way.
I dunno if this makes any sense. It's simple in my head, but I know you womenfolk will figure out ways to manipulate it into a man-shredding chainsaw of hate.
Actually, I don't fire up the chainsaw over intelligent discussion :)
Just push a button.....it fires right up
No, actually, it makes a lot of sense. I think things that happen when you're out with the girls/guys should stay there - within already established bounds of the relationship. Sort of the "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" kind of rule of life. I don't expect to know every little tidbit of information about my significant other, but there are important things I think are important to know.
For me, the pot would be a deal breaker....but I have my reasons for that - an ex had it delivered to my house - in my name, via US Mail....while I was away at work. Yeah, I'm not THAT into handcuffs to trust that it won't happen again.
However, if you're out and about and you're in a committed relationship, you swap spit or any other fluid with a person (and no, not via the bong), you're cheating, cheating is a form of lying (to me), and is a punishable offense. And no, no three strikes and yer out either.
Maybe I should have elaborated...out and out lies, white lies, black lies, and lies of omission - those are the killers.....Not telling you every little thing that happened when I went out with the girls....as long as I was truthful to the relationship I established with my significant other...(and not hiding things if you asked me outright....) no, that's not a lie.
So tell me, when you enter a freshly minted relationship, whose trust must be earned first? Yours or his/hers? Or is it a male/female thing (god forbid)?
With me, you the female must impress the hell out of me before I will instill in you the kind of trust one puts forth in a quasi-serious relationship. That might just speak about the kind of person I am: a venerable boy scout with more integrity and sensibility then most people I know. I come off as an extremely honest and loyal person; I don't get that feeling from many of the women I meet, at least not until I get a true sample of her character. If trust is called into question from the get-go, I will often send a girl packing, even after just a few dates. I just won't stand for it. Well, not before a good night's romp, at least. ;)
Well, I trust my gut instinct.
They need to earn my trust. I'm not as blindly trusting as I used to be - the whole once bitten, twice shy thing. If things 'feel' right, I may have a second date....if they don't, he gets the 'we'll just be friends' statement.
And well, he's gotta be pretty darn special (and not just THINK he's special) to earn the romp *G*
Pah, romping doesn't mean anything. You don't need to be 'special' for that. Just incredibly attractive and generously endowed.
Relationships, however, are a different kettle of doughnuts. By the way, you should never trust anyone, not because 'I'm really pessimistic and have been hurt in the past waa waa waa' but because PEOPLE CHANGE, something most couples don't seem to realise. How can you say to someone that you'll love them forever? You will change! You might not even like them two years down the line! You might do, but you can't possibly know that at the time. Think of all the times you have been wrong.
The only way to have a happy, successful relationship is to make sure you enjoy each others company now. So when you go home and your partner's there and you feel all warm and comfortable just to be there with him/her, you know it's right (but only for now). If you get home and spit out the usual 'hi honey how was your day' shit without really caring maybe you should set him/her free.
Relationships, however, are a different kettle of doughnuts. By the way, you should never trust anyone, not because 'I'm really pessimistic and have been hurt in the past waa waa waa' but because PEOPLE CHANGE, something most couples don't seem to realise. How can you say to someone that you'll love them forever? You will change! You might not even like them two years down the line! You might do, but you can't possibly know that at the time. Think of all the times you have been wrong.
Yes! You will change, they will change, circumstances will change and the world will change.
In order for a relationship to survive the whitewater of life it has to be strong. Strength comes from honesty and the trust it creates. Honesty and trust allow the flexibility, elasticity and fluidity that a relationship needs to survive.
Today I’m totally engrossed in you. Tomorrow afternoon I’m totally engrossed in a hobby. That doesn’t mean I love you any less tomorrow afternoon. You know where I am, what I’m doing and I’ll be back tomorrow night, ok?
I read this on
kisrael.com
[COLOR=DarkGreen]"Why won't you love me?" he asked.
She reached out and wrapped him in her arms.
How could she tell him that in his eyes she could see him preparing to consume her out of love?
He would begin with the eyes, then move on to her hands, her mouth, taking special care for the delicate lips.
The feast would continue with her breasts, and sex, then finish with her vitals, and her heart.
"Oh baby," she murmured, "baby baby baby."
They rocked together in the dim afternoon light.[/COLOR]
We have to feed each other, not feed off each other. ;)
We have to feed each other...
When you feed the other person and become full that's when you know you have something.
When you feed the other person and become full that's when you know you have something.
I like that. It's true.
Today I’m totally engrossed in you. Tomorrow afternoon I’m totally engrossed in a hobby. That doesn’t mean I love you any less tomorrow afternoon.
Today I love you. Tomorrow I don't. This may mean our relationship will change every day. Can you handle that? If so, I think we'll last a long, long time.
cat - then you are defining love as the "warm fuzzy feeling" not the act of placing another person's concerns and wellbeing ahead of your own.
Nope. Doesn't matter how you define the feeling - it is still subject to change. Wanting to put another person's concerns ahead of your own is still a feeling.
you're right - "wanting" to put another person above yourself is a feeling. Choosing to do so is an action.
Love is an action, a choice that we make every day. if we rely on the feeling then we will inevitably move on from a relationship at some point. the warm fuzzies, come and go, depending on life's situations. you can't control that. you can control your decisions and actions.
i choose to love my wife even when she pisses me off royally. i choose to love my wife even when i am stressed at work, the dog peed on the rug, the kid is screaming, and the warm fuzzies are nowhere to be found. i know that if i choose to continue to love my wife that the slow, quiet parts of life will come back around and we will experience the warm fuzzies again. i enjoy on them, but i don't rely on them.
True, breaches of trust are unforgivable. Trust is a material that once compromised, never truly mends.
Agreed also on the terminal nature of failing to put one's partner's needs ahead of one's own.
Several of my committed relationships have withered away when the girl stopped investing effort into the relationship... they fell victim to the logical fallacy that once a relationship reaches a certain point, it is stable and self-sustaining. That's true to a degree, but every relationship will have it's problems large or small, and an unwillingness to resolve those problems (or to even acknowledge them) will erode it away.
Being a non-LDS person in Utah has also added a rather unique relationship-ending circumstance... the "I've decided to become a Mormon and so must you if you wish to be a part of my life" event. God damn those Mormons.
if we rely on the feeling then we will inevitably move on from a relationship at some point
Exactly!! And you are right about choosing our actions. But to try and sustain the 'warm and fuzzy' as you call it thoughout life is impossible. So have affairs. Don't talk for a week. Do whatever you want and have complete freedom. This may mean splitting up. Why would you want to stay with someone if, as you put it, the relationship has 'moved on'. There's plenty of other people who would benefit from your company, and vice versa. You are exclusive to another person, not yourself.
. But to try and sustain the 'warm and fuzzy' as you call it thoughout life is impossible.
ok, you read what i wrote, but you didn't stop to understand it. you can't maintain and sustain the warm and fuzzy feeling. the harder you cling to it, the more slippery it becomes. you choose to actively love someone. life will always go on around you. the fuzzy feeling will fade at times. you continue to actively love your spouse and the fuzzy feeling comes back. it will fade again.
it is sort of like being happy vs. being content.
happiness is being in a great mood, everything is going well, you're on top of the world. it is a feeling, it will pass. it will return.
being content is understanding that life is good, even when you are having a rough time. it is a decision, a state of mind that you choose rather than whining about the things that don't work or giving up when the going gets rough. being content leaves you open for the return of that feeling we call happiness.
For me the marker is "respect".
And that can be breached by dishonesty, cruelty, manipulativeness, selfishness, distance, disinterest, emabarassment, behavior that demonstrates a lack of respect for the other. When you dont respect your partner or are consistently treated in a disrespectful way, time to reconsider.
That's another trigger for me as well.
It took a while to determine what I thought was 'just him' was a distinct lack of respect for me as a woman, or heck, even as a person.
Exactly!! And you are right about choosing our actions. But to try and sustain the 'warm and fuzzy' as you call it thoughout life is impossible. So have affairs. Don't talk for a week. Do whatever you want and have complete freedom. This may mean splitting up. Why would you want to stay with someone if, as you put it, the relationship has 'moved on'. There's plenty of other people who would benefit from your company, and vice versa. You are exclusive to another person, not yourself.
Nicely put. It's interesting. If the basis of a relationship isn't sex but does involve trust it can not only last a lot longer (honestly that is) but both people the space to change and grow. Of course it requires a truly rare level of trust, respect and understanding.
ok, you read what i wrote, but you didn't stop to understand it...being content leaves you open for the return of that feeling we call happiness.
Er, I was agreeing with you. :thumbsup:
Warch you have to earn respect. And maybe what you perceive as disrespect is actually hitting a nerve. Sometimes when one gets offended it's actually because they're right.
by the way thanks folks.. but the situation resolved itself *sigh*..
trust is still the most important thing to me in a relationship, damn.. after that it get's really tricky the other ones being split my nano-meters.. although love (and that get's to be tricky in trying to define.. simlply put for me though if I would sacrifice my life for theirs... willingly and gladly) anyway.. sorry had a few so my posting might be a little erratic :) well more so than usual!
You're the first person here to acknowledge that love is tricky to define. Yes, it's important to trust that the other person is going to be honest. Are you drinking at 6 in the morning? Or have I got the time thing all wrong again.
and it's the one I mostly associate with 'being in love' I am a fairly giving person, but.. that's when I know I'm over that line. lost.
anyway! in the past I have put up with insane amounts of bullshit. the two basic rules (of course with plenty of footnotes) are it's over if you cheat on me (and the definition of that is not soley physical.)/Lie to me (and no, some omissions are okay, I do it.. if it's not particularly important.. I might not mention the fact that I had 3 beers after work instead of 1.. and in all truth expect the same from others.) secondly violence done out of malicious intent, walk up to me and pop me in the face for no good reason (not that I think I would put somone in that position in any sort of regularity.) then no. buh-bye
and as to the trust angle? I usually will trust them first (to an extent), I mean I wouldn't be a hopeless romantic if I didn't :) and I will try to answer most questions truthfully, although I may not tell you your ass looks fat in those jeans.
your ass looks fat in those jeans.
I
knew it! You've fallen out of love with me, haven't you!?
Every time I think I've gotten myself into a good thing, I manage to fall in love and break it.
well... pastrami! I uh well.. never knew this would last.. I mean I'm uh... sorry.. but... I'm just telling the truth..
(and amen to that breakingnews)
I had my ass handed to me a few years ago by an untrustworthy woman, and still don't have the ability to fully trust the opposite sex. I automatically assume there's an ulterior motive to everything she says or does.
It's my fault, though. The person who stomped my heart was someone who (cough) I was having an affair with while she was married. So, even though she lied about the state of her marriage (she said it was over and they were already getting a divorce), and was lying to me about the fact that she was involved with a third guy (who knew about me, but also believed that she was divorcing Poor Fool #1), I can't really place much blame for the state of my heart on her. I'm the one who walked into a situation I already knew was fucked, and continued with it for 2 years even after I saw the truth.
So, lying is definitely the dealbreaker. That is, if I ever feel trustworthy enough myself or can summon enough trust in others to get in another serious relationship. The options are fairly limited atm, since my newfound blunt honesty is apparently not all that marketable, datewise.
In other words, I will tell you if your ass looks fat in those jeans, if that's the question you asked.
Warch you have to earn respect. And maybe what you perceive as disrespect is actually hitting a nerve. Sometimes when one gets offended it's actually because they're right.
My perspective is further along, commitments made, and respect initially established. And if you are in a relationship with another, respect defines that. Not sure about the earned levels in this context. What I was thinking about is larger than one incident or nerve, beyond an offense, its realizing a loss of the respect that once existed or was believed to exist. And I'm thinking of it from both directions.