God? Faith?
OK, faith or religion has become a conflict point in several threads recently so maybe it's time for a poll. No need to comment, unless you feel led.
Where's the 'I believe in something bigger than us, but I don't know what it is' choice?
sorry, labrat. i guess i would just lump that in with "i want to believe in God, but see no evidence". i don't know what "something bigger than us" would be, other than a god. please feel free to comment to clarify what you mean though.
The more I think about it, the more I think that there is no God, but since I was raised to believe in God, I have a difficult time coming right out and saying what is almost certainly true. Call me superstitious, but I don't feel comfortable coming right out and saying it. After watching Candyman the movie, I also had a hard time looking into a mirror and saying "Candyman" three times. I have also knocked on wood before too. I put all of these things in the same category, with denying God a little higher up on the taboo list than the others. Maybe that makes me a wimp because I lack convictions.
Now that I'm a dad, I've had to decide whether to raise my kids in any organized religion. My wife has stronger faith than me (which is not very hard) and we are taking the kids to church every week. The kids like church, and the message they get there is basically a good one, so I play along. I'm even somewhat involved in church, which is funny given my lack of faith. I help set up for special ceremonies, am helping to renovate some rooms, have done some readings, etc.
The way I figure it, I live the life of a good christian: I mean, I vote Democrat, I help the poor, I'm nice, I go to church. If God does exists, he should give me a break for being a good guy. If he doesn't (exist), well then it doesn't matter, does it?
I voted for "I want to believe, but have found no evidence of God " even though I have no special desire to believe anything.
she means agnostic - there's something out there, don't know what.
or by the dictionary:
someone who does not know, or believes that it is impossible to know, whether a god exists
I am struggling over this. I am leaning towards No God(s) and feeling mightily bummed out. I think the evidence tends towards a totally random, rather hostile universe. I feel totally shitty and things are really sucking. I hate this. I hate these periods of anxiety that plague me every few months. They SUCK. Plus, they erode what little faith I had. Little by little the anxiety chips away at what progress was made previously and I'm left right back at square one. Totally fucking sucks.
I was forced to choose "Only a fool..." simply because there is no evidence for the existence of deity, but I am also not of the opinion that there is no god because there is just as much evidence for that as well.
I'm in the "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" camp.
OK, faith or religion has become a conflict point in several threads recently so maybe it's time for a poll. No need to comment, unless you feel led.
Thanks for the poll, I'm eager to see the results accumulate but even more interested in the comments that may be posted.
Faith is, by definition, belief in something not seen. Hebrew 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, of things not seen." I can perceive evidence of that "God plays an active role in my life" much in the same way that I can tell the sun is in the sky without looking directly at it. Some level of evidence is enough for each person, and it certainly varies widely, and I have reached mine. The distance between evidence and truth is filled with faith.
One short story as an example. I was out of work and really stressing about everything that accompanies that situation. I was sitting in my car outside an office just before an interview, collecting myself for this very important, high stakes meeting. I said a simple prayer asking for God's help. As I looked up, my eyes focused on the billboard across the street. This is what I saw: "You are not alone." It was an ad for an adoption center, I think. I'm sure it was a clear communication to me that He was with me. I was greatly reassured, and entered the interview confidently. Two years later, I'm still on the job, the best job I've ever had.
God exists. He's with me (and you) all the time. What varies is my confidence, my faith, my ability to perceive. Science is the study of what can be reasonably inferred from repeatable experimentation. Faith is not subject to that kind of rigor. It's not defined to be.
Science is a useful, elegant way to discover the nature of the question "How?" Faith is equally useful and elegant for the explanation of the question "Why?"
I believe, have faith in, some sort of spiritual order or energetic force, but its form is not that of "a god" as described by the organized religions I've encountered, although they may start to proximate it. Not sure where that lands.
I dont feel this spiritual force as a "father" or "shepherd" or "savior"
maybe closer is "life (including death)" or "compassion".
It doesnt fit well into group worship. It doesnt lend itself to group governance. its not always easy or conforting. Its challenging and rather than delineating and choosing, its base is in a connectedness that is not comprehendable.
I invite you to join me in a conversation about this stance. I will not prosletyze. I am very familiar with this position, since I recently spent all my time there, and still visit it regularly.
I am willing to lend my ears and my time. If it is mutually acceptable, I would be willing to lend my words and thoughts as well.
The door's open.
Yeah, what Warch and Jaguar said is what I meant. I actually am currently struggling with whether or not I should start taking my 2 yr old to church or not. It did me 'good' learning the golden rule etc., and now like Glatt I live a "good Christian life" in general partly because of lessons learned young. So far tho, I have decided not to because I feel that she will emulate me and learn what I teach her by my actions (being a 'good person, sharing, not stealing, helping those in need, being honest with others) even without going to church, and by going when I don't truly believe, I am actually teaching her hypocracy and not honesty. I HATE hypocrites (sp) more than just about anything. Occasionally I actually envy those who wholehartedly believe in their faith, and wonder why I am broken for questioning things. I interpret BigV's story as coincidence that he looked at that particular billboard at that time. Ever notice that when someone mentions something, that's all you see for awhile? Like the ribbon thread. After reading that, all I saw were cars with those stupid magnetic ribbons. Should I take that as a sign that I should go out and buy one? I think, no. Because the human mind is SO suceptible to the power of suggestion, I just noticed things I previously was ignoring but were still there before I noticed them. I hope I am making sense. What if BigV happened to look at his gas gauge instead and noticed it was on E, and took that as a sign instead he was at the end of the line? Or reinterpreted the 'you are not alone' to mean 'there are four people trying for this job, and they're all just as qualified as you? I would give the reasoning that he saw what he saw and interpreted it the way he did because he was looking for SOMEONE to tell him, "it's going to be OK, give it your best shot". Because he is Christian, he believed it was God/Jesus whoever encouraging him. (Not that that is a bad thing!) I think, eh- coincidence.
I thought BigV's story was a coincidence too, but wasn't going to say anything, because who am I to chip away at someone else's faith? People with faith are genuinely happy to have it.
Look for proof of God, and you will find it.
Look for proof that hamsters are the supreme species on earth, and you will find it.
A) You certainly do not need to take your child to church for her to grow into a "good person". you are her teacher and guidance counselor in life. there are many kind, good people who hold no religious belief whatsoever. there are many deeply religious people who act in a cruel and deceitful manner.
B) Only BigV can speak to his experience. He could have very easily reached one of the conclusions you proposed, but he didn't. coincidence? maybe. or he saw what he needed to see at a very fragile crossroads in life. is it miraculous? i don't know about that, but it seems to have been a very important event for him.
C) You are definitely not broken because you question things. In fact, if you didn't i don't believe that would be a good thing. I hold my faith very close to me - i also frequently have doubts and questions. in my view, the depth of my faith is in a state of constant flutctuation, not because of God's changing presence, but because of my receptiveness.
D) Sometimes I see Faith as very similar to Love. I believe they are actions, verbs, decisions. I love my wife very deeply - but this is real life. The "warm fuzzy" love is only there occassionally. But i wake up every morning and make a conscious decision to love my wife. it is a process, a choice more than a feeling. I think it is amusing that many people think that to have a strong Christian faith one must have blind dedication. I have had many struggles with my faith over the years, but my faith has generally come through the other side stronger in some way. Faith is first a choice to believe in something bigger than ourselves, something that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of many. That, in a way, makes it that much stronger. It takes no personal investment to believe in something that is easily verified with one's eyes. Gravity is real. I can drop an apple and see it fall 10 out of 10 times. I have no real feelings for gravity.
Yeah, what Warch and Jaguar said is what I meant.
–snip—
Occasionally I actually envy those who wholehartedly believe in their faith, and wonder why I am broken for questioning things. I interpret BigV's story as coincidence that he looked at that particular billboard at that time. Ever notice that when someone mentions something, that's all you see for awhile? Like the ribbon thread. After reading that, all I saw were cars with those stupid magnetic ribbons. Should I take that as a sign that I should go out and buy one? I think, no. Because the human mind is SO suceptible to the power of suggestion, I just noticed things I previously was ignoring but were still there before I noticed them. I hope I am making sense. What if BigV happened to look at his gas gauge instead and noticed it was on E, and took that as a sign instead he was at the end of the line? Or reinterpreted the 'you are not alone' to mean 'there are four people trying for this job, and they're all just as qualified as you? I would give the reasoning that he saw what he saw and interpreted it the way he did because he was looking for SOMEONE to tell him, "it's going to be OK, give it your best shot". Because he is Christian, he believed it was God/Jesus whoever encouraging him. (Not that that is a bad thing!) I think, eh- coincidence.
LB: Your observations are right on target. I agree with you about the suggestability of the human mind, and mine in particular. Let me clear up an important detail first, please.
Faith is a choice to believe in the
absence of evidence.
I have faith in God, not because I worked it out to 10 decimal places, but because I have chosen to. It’s a provisional conclusion, since my faith is tested often. I don’t mean I’m out in the desert with the devil for a month, but I often, no, constantly try to reconcile what I believe with what I experience. Sometimes the evidence at hand does not match my estimation of what it should be. Some things that are especially hard to jive are the suffering of innocents, or, hey MY suffering. Why, God, why? Or the sheer inscrutability of His communication with me. A burning bush? Come on, just say it.
I’m not being funny, these are real questions of mine. As I reflect on circumstances like these, I usually have the most satisfying results when I slow down, calm down, and enlarge the scope of what’s involved. There’s not always a reason for what happens. Let me expand that a little—not always a reason I understand, or not always a reason that can be traced back to “God’s will”. For example, I do not believe that the tragedy of the recent tsunami is “God’s judgment”. Nor do I understand why I give all my pocket change to the guy on the corner with the cardboard sign (or why I feel convicted with I don’t).
When I do open myself to more inputs and observations, a few points come up again and again that help settle me. One, God knows more than I do (duh). I mean, when the kids were small, and I took away something from them that they wanted but was harmful for them, they wailed but I persisted. I can hear them now “But WHY!!??” Sometimes I could reason with them to a point, sometimes not. I don’t always have the whole story, but so far, it’s always worked out in my favor. I mean, I’m still here, ain’t I?
Suffering is not always bad. Ooh. Tough one. I can’t always get this one settled, but usually the suffering is a result of the difference between my expectations and my realities. It’s uncomfortable but true that both sides of that equations can be moved toward meeting somewhere in the middle. And another thing, sometimes, I bring the suffering on myself. I still manage to be surprised and pissed off sometimes, but I shouldn’t be.
I leave room for myself to live peaceably with some uncertainty. Hey, I know lots of things now that were once perfectly opaque mysteries to me. Just because I don’t know everything about how something works really doesn’t impinge on the truth. Sometimes it’s true and I’m ignorant (understatement of the century).
I remember similar situations in the past and how they were resolved. There’s something of a positive feedback cycle at work here, for sure. But this is not a cop-out. I don’t re-figure out how to tie my shoes every day, or re-learn how to get to work or re-evaluate if my family is worthy of my love,—I re-member. If I switch from laces to Velcro, time to reconsider. If I get a new job, it’s time to remap my commute. If I come home and my clothes are flung over the lawn and the locks are changed, I better regroup. In the meantime, the working hypothesis is in place and functioning.
Let me give you an example: Money. Faith in money is no different. A Dollar? A piece of paper. Seriously. But I trust it, have faith in it. Heck, that’s the doggone definition of money. We all share the idea that the dollar can be exchanged uniformly for some service or product. But without that faith in that intangible idea, the money is worthless. Faith in God is like that for me. It’s a decision. I have listened to people who’s opinion I trust and value, I’ve read what I can, I listened and learned what I could and I have concluded that it’s true. God exists (and a bunch more…). Science, or a reasonable facsimile of the scientific method, test, evaluate, verify, led me here, but it is Faith, not Science that brought me this last step.
A) You certainly do not need to take your child to church for her to grow into a "good person". you are her teacher and guidance counselor in life. there are many kind, good people who hold no religious belief whatsoever. there are many deeply religious people who act in a cruel and deceitful manner.
B) Only BigV can speak to his experience. He could have very easily reached one of the conclusions you proposed, but he didn't. coincidence? maybe. or he saw what he needed to see at a very fragile crossroads in life. is it miraculous? i don't know about that, but it seems to have been a very important event for him.
C) You are definitely not broken because you question things. In fact, if you didn't i don't believe that would be a good thing. I hold my faith very close to me - i also frequently have doubts and questions. in my view, the depth of my faith is in a state of constant flutctuation, not because of God's changing presence, but because of my receptiveness.
D) Sometimes I see Faith as very similar to Love. I believe they are actions, verbs, decisions. I love my wife very deeply - but this is real life. The "warm fuzzy" love is only there occassionally. But i wake up every morning and make a conscious decision to love my wife. it is a process, a choice more than a feeling. I think it is amusing that many people think that to have a strong Christian faith one must have blind dedication. I have had many struggles with my faith over the years, but my faith has generally come through the other side stronger in some way. Faith is first a choice to believe in something bigger than ourselves, something that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of many. That, in a way, makes it that much stronger. It takes no personal investment to believe in something that is easily verified with one's eyes. Gravity is real. I can drop an apple and see it fall 10 out of 10 times. I have no real feelings for gravity.
I would like to heartily second L123’s thoughts here, all of them. Good person/bad person and religious/faithful really don’t have any connection, but are often conflated. This is a very common example of the suggestability LB mentioned before.
I did (and sometimes still do) consider if what I saw was a “coincidence”, but I concluded that it wasn’t. A choice…
Questions are an integral, necessary part of the equation. Does a clock have “faith” in 3:15 pm? No, it’s just what happens every day on its way ‘round the dial. My questions enhance the value and importance of my faith.
Faith and love—wow, I can add nothing to improve the beauty, clarity and truth of these words. Masterful, Lookout123.
labrat - lookout is right, you can teach 'christian' values without adding all the crappy christianity stuff on top, hell you can teach the 10 commandments without pointing out some people think they was written on rock by god 2000 odd years ago. The important thing is the values, not the source.
I certainly believe there is some sort of God, and I suppose I would consider myself to be agnostic. I was raised Catholic (12 years of Catholic school) but remember thinking at an early age that the Bible had lots of interesting stories, but how do we know they're true? (I believe I even said this out loud once, much to the dismay of my mother who never really gave me a good answer). I've seen too many good things in the world to disbelieve in a God completely, but it seems as I get older that I am distancing myself further and further from organized religion and the concept of a "fixed" God (sorry, I don't know the correct terminology). I HATE IT when people try to force their beliefs and religion on me, and my guess is that this is a reaction to all the years of having Catholic dogma forced down my throat. So regarding the kids--I think it's healthy to expose them to different beliefs, but certainly don't MAKE them believe what you believe. It's only gonna backfire on ya.
labrat - lookout is right, you can teach 'christian' values without adding all the crappy christianity stuff on top, hell you can teach the 10 commandments without pointing out some people think they was written on rock by god 2000 odd years ago.
yep. Lookout
is right. The values can be taught without the context of christianity. They're important enough to convey in any way possible, hey, that's why they're called v-a-l-u-e-s.
The important thing is the values, not the source.
nope. The source IS important. While I was able to comprehend only the usefulness of these values, no more was important. As my ability to understand more grew, so did the importance of knowing more about the reasons behind the values.
Don't you remember when Mama told you "No!" and that was the end of the conversation? Then the answer became "Because I said so." and that sufficed for a while. Eventually, the yearning to know why was no longer satisfied with such an answer.
As my knowledge of the range of the sphere of influence my actions increased, as I began to be able to realize the longer term consequences of my actions, just relying on "Because it's a good idea" as the foundation to my values became less and less reliable. Sometimes there was conflict. Conflict that demanded that one of the sides must change. Was the behavior wrong or was it not a "good idea"? That's when blind or limited understanding became insufficient. I needed a larger frame of reference. Where were these ideas coming from? The answer to that question necessarily lies beyond the values themselves, and once asked in earnest, can never be unasked.
Where that path leads will vary from person to person, and for me, it led to God. It was not a short, easy or direct journey. Nor is it anywhere near over. But I do understand more than I did before. I'm more able than I used to be, and still questions and challenges lie before me. Thankfully, I have more tools to help me deal with these new obstacles.
I respect, and occasionally envy, the faith so many seem to hold, but I cannot bring myself to believe in this thing you call God. I believe in words and thoughts and grass and long lazy afternoons. I feel no need to look beyond the every day. This is life. I'm not living here for something greater. I am living here to live here. There is nothing else, and there need be nothing else, but today, and tomorrow, and the memory of yesterday.
I can't respond, as this is clearly a monotheistically oriented poll... :D
What would I put if I believe in a higher force, but don't necessarily view it as "god"?
And now, the serious answer from me.
You, me, stuff...all are the manifestation of deity. We are made of the same fabric as the rest of the universe. We possess all of the energy that flows through the universe, and we can use it...if we believe in ourselves and our relation to the All.
Call it prayer, call it magick, call it whatever you wish...the conscious accumulation and channeling of the energy that is available to you flowing freely through the All is at the core of the concept of deity. It is the stuff of Creation, of the physical, of the invisible.
You *are* God...deal with it.
And now, the serious answer from me.
You, me, stuff...all are the manifestation of deity. We are made of the same fabric as the rest of the universe.
What type of fabric is it? Wool is itchy....
I can't respond, as this is clearly a monotheistically oriented poll... :D
and the christians seem to dominate the conversation at that!
You, me, stuff...all are the manifestation of deity. We are made of the same fabric as the rest of the universe.
Indisputably true. To the best of my (limited) understanding, all matter and energy is fungible. What "losses" there are to entropy are like the fees charged as you change your money from one currency to another. Nothings added or subtracted; everything's still there but in different places.
We possess all of the energy that flows through the universe, and we can use it...if we believe in ourselves and our relation to the All.
Call it prayer, call it magick, call it whatever you wish...the conscious accumulation and channeling of the energy that is available to you flowing freely through the All is at the core of the concept of deity. It is the stuff of Creation, of the physical, of the invisible.
I agree with this. I feel it is inconsistent to say the least to quarrel with someone over vocabulary, when I see so much similarity. While this is not the verbiage to which I am accustomed, I am perfectly at home with the spirit in which it is delivered.
You *are* God...deal with it.
God, I hope not. Wait, does that make it so then? Magical, miraculous, mysterious, certainly, but I would be disappointed to think that I am the very pinnacle of creation. I think we disagree on a little more than just terminology here, Els. I would like to hear more from you.
"The atheist does not say "there is no God," but he says "I know not what
you mean by God; I am without idea of God; the word 'God' is to me a sound
conveying no clear or distinct affirmation. ... The Bible God I deny; the
Christian God I disbelieve in; but I am not rash enough to say there is no
God as long as you tell me you are unprepared to define God to me.""
[Charles Bradlaugh, "Plea for Atheism"]
Where's this option? :)
Where's this option? :)
Does your quote most closely approximate your stance, HM?
Pretty close, though I do enjoy debating it anyway.
I do not believe there is some sort of personal Almighty "who sees the sparrow fall." If this were the case, such an entity would be classified as a devil, rather than "God."
As a scientist, I have yet to see anything which proves the existance or non-existance of God. Every argument I have ever heard on the subject at last relies on "It's turtles all the way down."
I have had events occur in my life that had a probability of happening of about .00000000000000000000000000000000000000001%, and I've had such things happen to me more than twice but less than ten times in my life. These things intrigued me when they happened and continue to intrigue me now. Were they result of some God-like force? I am skeptical of this, but open to further information should any deity passing by in the neighborhood be willing to dispense it. (I don't know what catagory that places me in for the poll, so I didn't answer it).
It does leave me thinking. If I AM god, why am I only appeased with cheesecake? Hmm, it seems if that is true, then every belief is wrong! Want into heaven? gimme some cheesecake. ^_^ Dunlavy's cheesecake shrine.
Els (and associated others) - sorry, you're right - i did phrase the poll in a monotheistic fashion. didn't mean to exclude you, so thanks for overlooking my error.
i didn't start the poll so that i could climb on my soap box. i don't expect anyone in here to accept or be swayed by my post, it was simply my reaction to labrat's post. carry on, i know there are quite afew people here who have very strong beliefs in ________. i like to hear they "why"?
To me, god is the universe and everything in it. That is of course a massive over-simplification but words are very limiting when it comes to theology. So, anyway, this means that I am a part of god, and so is everyone else. This really blurs the boundaries of "me", in fact I'd rather say "us" and "we" than "me" or "I". Anything I do affects everything else, and anything you do affects me. We are all part of the same system, affecting each other. If I help you I'm helping myself, and if I hurt you I'm hurting myself. For all these reasons I voted "God plays an active role in my life", but this does NOT mean I pray, or hear voices telling me what to do, or go to church (in fact I'm very much against organised religion).
Wait, so if it's everything in it, does that mean people are praying to themselves?! Egocentric SOB's!
What would I put if I believe in a higher force, but don't necessarily view it as "god"?
Uh..."Hi, my name is Dunlavy and I'm an alcoholic"? :D
God, I hope not. Wait, does that make it so then? Magical, miraculous, mysterious, certainly, but I would be disappointed to think that I am the very pinnacle of creation. I think we disagree on a little more than just terminology here, Els. I would like to hear more from you.
There is no pinnacle of Creation...all portions are equal. Manifested in differing ways externally, certainly, but fundamentally...the same.
Matter is energy made tangible, at least, to our particular senses. Energy is the basis of everything. Ultimately, energy is all there is. Our particular gift is our mind, matter made self-aware. The trick is to not get overly caught up in this one plane; not be totally confined by your "five senses", so that you become unable to interact with the All. The quest for the ability to be more aware, more interactive with things that you do not normally interact with is the basis of spirituality. Faith is a part of that. You have to have faith that you *can*, in fact, see and know more than the here and now.
Many things are hidden, but not nonexistent. It is really, really hard to get in tune with those things, and most people spend a lifetime trying. I know I'm working at it.
The book I recommend most to people is called "The Holographic Universe". It is the closest thing I have yet found that summarizes, as a mostly scientific theory, how all of this works. Believe it or not, it was reading this that finally persuaded me that a spiritual pursuit (in my case, Wicca) could actually yield results.
I was raised Catholic but have since shunned the formal structure of the faith. I believe in God in a religious sense but also in a philosophical sense. Its the most logical answer to the question: what was the first thing to exist?
All this stuff (us and everything around us) came from somewhere or something. God is as good an answer as anything else I can come up with.
So, I believe in God for two reasons. One because my faith provides a structure to my life that I am comfortable with and two, God is an easy answer to a question that, in all likelihood, will never be answered.
Lastly, people who don't believe in God can't prove me wrong any more than I can prove them wrong which is why I don't feel compelled to defend my belief in God nor do I feel compelled to convince others that he exists. I derive no comfort from sharing my belief in the unprovable with others nor do I feel alienated if I am in the company of agnostics or athiests.
Unfortunately, I only have the 'net at work, so I can't always post with as much thought as I'd like when I'm trying to do it without getting caught :) Please bear with my sometimes incomplete trains of thought... That being said,
"Faith is a choice to believe in the absence of evidence" Exactly. Which is MY problem. I find it so difficult sometimes to just believe. I think it's human nature to doubt. Personally for me, I think it's because I don't really like (?) the traditional Christian theology. I was taught growing up that God is omnipotent, all knowing, all seeing. He always has been, is, and will be. He made us, therefore knows everything about us and EVERYONE from Adam and Eve to the very last person EVER. SO, my main problem is, (i think i mentioned this in the abortion thread) if he knew we were going to sin, and fall short of his expectations, etc. etc. why'd he bother? He already knows if we are going to 'take Jesus into our hearts and accept him as our own Lord and Savior' or we're not and therefor end up in 'Hell'. Why didn't he just make perfect beings in the first place?? I feel like we are just his little gerbils in a cage, for his personal enjoyment. He already KNOWS were going to fail, yet he made us anyway. Sick little dude, that God. ;)
I believe too, that everything happens for a reason, and we don't (or can't)know that reason. BigV's explaination I think would be, don't worry, you may not get it now, but there is a method to God's madness. Which is comforting to him. My explaination is, Shit happens. Life isn't fair. I live by the law of averages I guess. For every 'good' thing that happens to someone, a 'bad' thing must also happen, either to that same person, or another. And, because this world is ruled by ramdomness and entropy?, the good and bad things all happen randomly to those in it. That's why some people seem to have good luck, and others bad, no matter how much they 'derserve' one or the other. I guess I feel like it's human nature to want to be comforted by the knowledge that there is a REASON for everything. And religion serves that perpose, giving a reason (God's (or who ever's) will) for what happens that we don't understand. I am comforted in my belief of Randomness, BigV in his belief that God has a plan. We both use it to go about our daily business so we don't go crazy trying to figure out why bad things happen to undeserving people. He feels that God is looking out for him, I feel like I am just in the right place at the right time He thanks God for his blessings, and I thank 'whoever' for my thus far good luck in life. If something 'bad' happens, he says, God, I don't know why, but I trust you have a reason, I say, well shit. that sucks. but look at all the good things that have happened to me, I guess it's only fair I get some crappy stuff too. We both go on and try to make the best out of what doesn't make sense.
Or, maybe I'm just loopy.
There is no pinnacle of Creation...all portions are equal. Manifested in differing ways externally, certainly, but fundamentally...the same.
Aw, don't start that PETA crap again. :p
I actually am currently struggling with whether or not I should start taking my 2 yr old to church or not. It did me 'good' learning the golden rule etc., and now like Glatt I live a "good Christian life" in general partly because of lessons learned young. So far tho, I have decided not to because I feel that she will emulate me and learn what I teach her by my actions (being a 'good person, sharing, not stealing, helping those in need, being honest with others) even without going to church,
Doing the right thing and feeling the kid will follow your lead might work IF you take the time and trouble to explain there are other possible choices. The kid sees what you did but may not be fully aware of what you could have but chose not to do. Sooner or later they are going to think of these other options and will be better off if they are aware that you thought of and rejected those options.
Seems every kid at some point feels they are the first one, in the history of man, to make these discoveries. :)
Shouldnt the statements read "Jesus" instead of Me?
I let the kid take care of business lately. I'm still here, just busy trying to figure out my new computer.
God
Looks like God has the last word for the night.
Oh, Els.....not you too? :eyebrow: ;)
SO, my main problem is, (i think i mentioned this in the abortion thread) if he knew we were going to sin, and fall short of his expectations, etc. etc. why'd he bother? He already knows if we are going to 'take Jesus into our hearts and accept him as our own Lord and Savior' or we're not and therefor end up in 'Hell'. Why didn't he just make perfect beings in the first place??
He did. And he gave them free will. They chose to disobey him, and screwed it up for the rest of us. This willfull disobedience is the "Original Sin".
I feel like we are just his little gerbils in a cage, for his personal enjoyment. He already KNOWS were going to fail, yet he made us anyway. Sick little dude, that God. ;)
Life isn't the destination, it's the journey.
God didn't create man to fail, but through making the wrong choices, we do. And this is a huge part of what faith is about. You choose to believe or not. If it was proven to you, faith would not be necessary.
I believe too, that everything happens for a reason, and we don't (or can't)know that reason. BigV's explaination I think would be, don't worry, you may not get it now, but there is a method to God's madness. Which is comforting to him. My explaination is, Shit happens. Life isn't fair.
You're absolutely right. Life isn't fair, and shitty things happen to really good, moral, Godly people. These are life lessons. Something good will come of it, even if it's good to someone else. You didn't get that job? Someone else did, and maybe they needed it more than you did.
I live by the law of averages I guess. For every 'good' thing that happens to someone, a 'bad' thing must also happen, either to that same person, or another. And, because this world is ruled by ramdomness and entropy?, the good and bad things all happen randomly to those in it. That's why some people seem to have good luck, and others bad, no matter how much they 'derserve' one or the other. I guess I feel like it's human nature to want to be comforted by the knowledge that there is a REASON for everything. And religion serves that perpose, giving a reason (God's (or who ever's) will) for what happens that we don't understand. I am comforted in my belief of Randomness, BigV in his belief that God has a plan. We both use it to go about our daily business so we don't go crazy trying to figure out why bad things happen to undeserving people. He feels that God is looking out for him, I feel like I am just in the right place at the right time He thanks God for his blessings, and I thank 'whoever' for my thus far good luck in life. If something 'bad' happens, he says, God, I don't know why, but I trust you have a reason, I say, well shit. that sucks. but look at all the good things that have happened to me, I guess it's only fair I get some crappy stuff too. We both go on and try to make the best out of what doesn't make sense.
Or, maybe I'm just loopy.
No, I don't think you're loopy at all. It's just a different point of view.
Ugh, see, that's my problem...If perfect means having free will (therefore destined to fail) then why did he make us with free will? He knew we were going to fail when he chose to give us the option of thinking for ourselves. I guess I can't (at this time) get over the fact that he CHOSE to make us so that we were destined to fail. So now all he does is watch us try to obey him to the best of our meager abilities, and (I picture) him laughing at our sad little attempts to be 'God like'. :angel:
Quote OC: "Life isn't the destination, it's the journey. " I totally agree, something that became painfully aware to me when my dad died at 52 when I was 22. Of course, this was probably also the point in my life where I (unconsiously) came up with my little personal theology. The whole 'God has a plan' bit that our church friends were consoling my family with just rang hollow with me. He busted his ass his whole life, and finally was gettting to the point where he could enjoy some of the fruits of his labors, and BAM. Dead. Yeah, someone got some new retinas, and skin grafts or whatever, but really, was denying him what he 'deserved' worth that?? (sorry, 7 years later I guess I am still pretty bitter and emotional.) My faith apparently wasn't strong enough to get me thru and coming up with my own personal philospohy allowed me to come to peace with the unfairness of life (at least partially, apparently). I guess it's in my being to question EVERYTHING. Drives my husband nutso.
then why did he make us with free will? He knew we were going to fail when he chose to give us the option of thinking for ourselves. I guess I can't (at this time) get over the fact that he CHOSE to make us so that we were destined to fail.
**********disclaimer: I do not have the answers***********
this is just my perspective. Let's pretend, you woke up the morning of your wedding and the happiness fairy was standing there and told you it was time for
The Choice. She goes on to explain that before you get married you have the choice of giving your husband the ability to choose to love you, honor you, and remain committed to your for the rest of your lives
or you could make life a lot less stressful and remove that pesky free will from his make up. He has no choice but to love, honor, and remain committed to you. It would actually be impossible for him to let you down or disappoint you in any way.
It is a hard choice, when you dig a little beneath the surface.
Plan B) You are guaranteed that he will treat you as the queen you are... but if he has no other choice is it as special? Are his actions that honor you as meaningful when you have a few years to realize, it is impossible for him to do anything else?
Plan A) Free Will. You know him very well and you know he will disappoint you in your marriage. He will, at times, say unkind things to you, he will sometimes be thoughtless in his actions, he will often be self centered. There is even a possibility that he might decide his secretary is more appealing than you, at least for a day - inother words he will fail you (and himself)
BUT - and here's the big but, when he does love you and honor you, and treat you as he should - it is infinitely more valuable to you because it is his choice to do so. There is no coercion (sp). He had the ability to go the other direction, but because of his love and commitment to you he has honored you.
anyway - that's my perspective. obedience and good behaviour is meaningless if there were no other option.
Bee-u-tiful. No one has ever explained it to me that way. Totally makes sense. My knee jerk response to the marriage fairy scenario is of course free will. Now, let me chew on this awhile and see what I can find that I don't like about it :lol:
The other side of the choice story is whether you want a life that is filled with meaning or a life that is filled with certainty. Meaning doesn't necessarily pay the bills, so to speak.
The story doesn't fly. God doesn't have needs or wants that are made clear in any part of the manual.
The story doesn't fly. God doesn't have needs or wants that are made clear in any part of the manual.
I always thought the story said God created us because he was lonely..? Loneliness is a need/want.
I always thought the story said God created us because he was lonely..? Loneliness is a need/want.
Cite please.
Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW that if I chose free will, the little bastard would cheat on me, leave his underwear on the floor 12 inches from the laundry basket, and gamble our life savings away. If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)? (merging the 2 scenarios) Sounds a bit vengeful to me. If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules? [SIZE=1]my head is starting to hurt[/SIZE]
*frantically looking for Bible*
There's got to be one around here somewhere...
*keeps looking*
Of course there's the 'S/He made us so we could worship Him/Her' theory. What an ego! :cool:
Ok--Revelation 4:11 says God created us for His pleasure, so, yeah, you could argue that S/He created us to fuck with us. The Bible says a lot of things. Things that mostly contradict other things. It's a mystery locked in a cunundrum wrapped in an enigma. Or something like that.
[SIZE=1]my head is starting to hurt[/SIZE]
That's because you're making the prime mistake when pondering God, thinking.
Things that mostly contradict other things. It's a mystery locked in a cunundrum wrapped in an enigma. Or something like that.
That's why I used the "made clear" qualifier in my statement.
Plan B) You are guaranteed that he will treat you as the queen you are... but if he has no other choice is it as special? Are his actions that honor you as meaningful when you have a few years to realize, it is impossible for him to do anything else?
Plan A) Free Will. You know him very well and you know he will disappoint you in your marriage. He will, at times, say unkind things to you, he will sometimes be thoughtless in his actions, he will often be self centered. There is even a possibility that he might decide his secretary is more appealing than you, at least for a day - inother words he will fail you (and himself)
So you get a choice between a minivan and a sports car? ;)
Look for proof of God, and you will find it.
Look for proof that hamsters are the supreme species on earth, and you will find it.
After reading all the other comments in this thread, I think UT's is the best still. :thumbsup:
Ok--Revelation 4:11 says God created us for His pleasure, so, yeah, you could argue that S/He created us to fuck with us. The Bible says a lot of things. Things that mostly contradict other things. It's a mystery locked in a cunundrum wrapped in an enigma. Or something like that.
Actually, there are very few (if any) contradictions
when taking the statement in question in context in the bible that cannot be explained logically.
Please understand I in no way am stating they don't exist, lest the heathens inundate me with examples, just that MOST if not all of them can be explained with Eisegesis. (sp)
and TS, I dont think that you have to check intellectualism at the door of your place of worship. My biggest hurdle is my tendency to have to think things through, and for things to make sense. I can't, no matter how hard I try, have "blind faith", but rather, I have to have reasons why I believe like I do.
Some people can have blind faith, but I can't. And there's a passage in the bible that says specifically DON'T have blind faith, but have reasons why you believe like you do.
I don't think anyone should have blind faith in anything.
I don't think anyone should have blind faith in anything.
Says the woman who thinks the earth is 6000 +/- years old...
Yes, I believe that, but not because it's been simply fed to me, but because I looked at the evidence science has, and I've come to a different conclusion than evolutionists have.
It's not blind faith. In fact, it's precisely the opposite of blind faith, because I have reasons to believe the way I do about the age of the earth.
Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...
;)
Yes, I believe that ... because I looked at the evidence science has, and I've come to a different conclusion than evolutionists have.
So you think that your understanding of the radioactive properties of carbon 14 is more enlightened than that of the world's scientific community?
I can't respond, as this is clearly a monotheistically oriented poll... :D
Ditto.
So you think that your understanding of the radioactive properties of carbon 14 is more enlightened than that of the world's scientific community?
No, my understanding of carbon-14 dating is that it has proven time and again, consistantly, to be unreliable outside of a few thousand years. Why anyone would continually try to use a dating method that is wrong to prove millions of years is beyond me.
the numbers on this poll are much closer than i thought they'd be. 19 believe in some kind of god, 19 don't. 3 think it's for fools (but didn't say whether they believed or not :haha:), and 2 didn't vote because there was no pagan choice.
no wonder these threads go on for so long.
Beestie, carbon-14 dating isn't accurate beyond a few tens of thousands of years - it doesn't in any way discredit young-earth-creationist arguments. Ice core samples in Antarctica, on the other hand......
This argument isn't winnable by either side, based on available evidence. The Bible doesn't offer a clear timeline (trying to add up years based on geneological lists is just as silly as using carbon-14 dating to prove something is 44 gazillion years old), and the best science has to offer is "we don't know, just believe us, we're mainstream science, and we do experiments and stuff."
Creationists would do well to forget about the young-earth thing and concentrate on the more important messages in the bible.
Creationists would do well to forget about the young-earth thing and concentrate on the more important messages in the bible.
What in your opinion, is the most important message in the Bible?
I think that focusing on "more important messages" in the Bible are completely dependant upon the validity of the book.
If I can't believe, "In the beginning" then how can I believe anything else in the same book?
edit: this is what I mean by blind faith....I don't have it.
Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...
;)
I don't.
Let me put it this way:
If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.
Doesn't that make creation pretty important?
I picked "Only fools..." because there wasn't a choice equating to "Insufficient evidence for a truly rational mind".
:D
Let me put it this way:
If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.
Doesn't that make creation pretty important?
Not particularly. Neither is a proven occurence.
I meant in the context of the important messages in the bible, TS.
Gosh now that's not the result i was expecting to find. How heartening to see somany people dont believe in the tooth fairy...sorry I mean dont believe in God:P
oh wow...do you do standup? That was so freaking funny.... man...
Let me put it this way:
If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.
Doesn't that make creation pretty important?
[insider Christian-talk]
Oh nononono. The fact that God created everything is very important. The biblical timeline vis-a-vis the "evolutionary" timeline is not. In fact, it's a distraction and a barrier to sharing the message of Christ - which is the central theme of our faith.[/insider Christian-talk]
As long as the argument amounts to "Whaddya mean we came from monkeys???" vs. "Pfft on your so-called god and your cute little non-Darwin-inspired 'theeeeeories'." nobody from either side learns anything.
I'm still convinced that all the people waiting for a "sign from God" will get none until they actively search with an open heart. No free magic shows. I also think that people who believe blindly will find themselves disappointed and doubting God more often than not. God gave you a brain, too.
DanaC, why so aggro?
I'm still convinced that all the people waiting for a "sign from God" will get none until they actively search with an open heart. No free magic shows. I also think that people who believe blindly will find themselves disappointed and doubting God more often than not. God gave you a brain, too.
Bravo!
Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...
*nitpicking* it isn't blind faith if they have looked at the info and have come to that conclusion based on the available info.
2 people can look at the same info, come up with 2 different conclusions without relying on blind faith. blind faith is the creationist who believes the way they do because their mom told them so and also the evolutionist who believes that way because his science teacher told him so...
*nitpicking concluded*
Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW the outcomes...If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)? ... If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules?
*LR is waiting patiently for a response...*
One problem of taking the bible for word for word truth is that it's been translated multiple times, and thusly lots of things have been slightly changed...creating potentially new meanings for different passages...
Quote Brianna: "It's a mystery locked in a cunundrum wrapped in an enigma."
confounded by human inaccuracy
Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW that if I chose free will, the little bastard would cheat on me, leave his underwear on the floor 12 inches from the laundry basket, and gamble our life savings away. If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)? (merging the 2 scenarios) Sounds a bit vengeful to me. If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules? [SIZE=1]my head is starting to hurt[/SIZE]
Got to add some to your scenario...
If your spouse had free will, and chose to do all that bad stuff and divorce you, he would be selecting his own outcome, right? What if you had a child who was so distraught over the spouse's bad decision that he offered to pay the penalty himself, and bring the spouse back into the right relationship with you? If the spouse accepts this gift, he gets back into the family and the matter is never spoken of again.
Doesn't sound vengeful or jealous to me.
If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules?
If you have a child, you know that being a parent ain't easy. You have rules. They are there not to get your kids in trouble, but to protect them. You tell them "these are the rules and this is what happens if you break the rules". If they then choose to break the rules, willfully and defiantly, just because they don't feel like following them, is it wrong to be consistant and stick to the rules and consequences?
One problem of taking the bible for word for word truth is that it's been translated multiple times, and thusly lots of things have been slightly changed...creating potentially new meanings for different passages...
Man, if you only knew how many times I hear this argument....Agreed, translating from one language to another (and in some cases two languages into another) is ALWAYS difficult.
As far as accuracy, we have MULTIPLE surviving copies of all of the books in the bible. Don't you think they've been checked and rechecked against each other for accuracy? When there is a problem with translation, we are given notes in the text to compare the word or phrase against another portion of text, sometimes in a different book. That's what those little notations are.
Now accuracy and interpretation are two different things. That's why there are so many different bible interpretations. KJV, NASB, NIV, etc... Just because they have different words, generally, the verses mean the same thing.
Edit: Hell isn't all fire and brimstone. Hell is the eternal absence of God.
Let me ask this of the non-religious: What is the main obstacle in your personal opinion that prevents you from believing in a God? (Not just the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god, any god).
For the religious but not Judeo-Christian-Muslim variety, why do you believe in the God(s)/Goddess(es) you do?
Sorry LR - i've been trying to decide how i really want to respond. I can't respond with hard facts, as we all know. this is about faith. a choice. i realize that anyone who doesn't believe in A god will dismiss what i say, look for wholes in it, and some will choose to pick at my intelligence for believing in something they find ridiculous. I am not a theologian. I am answering some questions with the beliefs that are part of my personal faith. for those reason's i generally try to stay away from these discussions. i don't find much value in arguing over articles of faith. but...
Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW that if I chose free will, the little bastard would cheat on me, leave his underwear on the floor 12 inches from the laundry basket, and gamble our life savings away.
it is an analogy, certainly not perfect... but before you get married you absolutely do know that your soon to be spouse will fail you. you may not know whether or not they will cheat, but you do know it is a possibility. you know for a fact that they will at some point lie, be unkind, be a slob, etc... you know this very well, but you probably choose to leave the choice to love you or not love you in his hands. that really isn't that different than what God has done with us. He knows we will fail him in some ways. He wants us to love and honor him. He wants the best for us. He allows us to make the choice to follow Him or follow our own path.
If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)?
if your spouse has the choice to love you and honor you, but chooses to reject you - would you still welcome him with open arms? would you keep an open shelf in the closet for his things? would he still have access to your bed? If a person chooses to reject God throughout their life, why would we expect God to welcome them into His eternal kingdom - a kingdom that the individual has rejected?
Sounds a bit vengeful to me. If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules?
I don't feel it is vengeful, but i can understand your feeling on the issue. I do believe that God does love us all unconditionally. I believe that it troubles Him when we reject Him. "not a sparrow falls, without a tear from the One who made and put us here..." and all that. But He has given us the choice to accept Him and His gift to us, or reject Him and choose our own path.
as far as the "break his rules" part - We all break his rules. The most dedicated believer will sin. period. there isn't a measure of # of good deeds vs. # of bad deeds to get into heaven. it is an act of faith to 1) believe in God (a higher power than myself), 2) Believe that his Son died and rose again (to pay the wages of my sin), and 3) to accept this gift of redemption (acknowledge that I cannot buy or earn my way into His grace).
those are the requirements laid down in the New Testament. If you reject the Bible than none of this really matters to you. We as individuals have the freedom to accept these things through faith and believe them to be true - always knowing that we may be proven wrong in the end. We also have the freedom to choose our own path with the knowledge that we may be wrong in the end.
Again - this isn't meant to convince anyone of anything. I am not the answer man. This is my faith.
Let me ask this of the non-religious: What is the main obstacle in your personal opinion that prevents you from believing in a God? (Not just the Judeo-Christian god, any god).
Because there is no void in my life that can't be filled either with reason or an ability to understand that there are things out there that are beyond my control.
I don't need the hollow comfort of an invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being whose only context is derived by taking the word of someone who has the same frame of referrence as I do, but claims to be able to access the same invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being.
just a little shameless thread pimping, but onyx, you may want to track
this thread about having good reasons for believing things.
What in your opinion, is the most important message in the Bible?
If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.
I avoid the creation/evolution threads because they don't hold a lot of interest for me. I accept the Bible as the word of God. I believe in an "all or nothing faith". my faith is not a smorgasbord. BUT - OC why does it matter if the world was created in 6 literal days? does your faith rest on the idea that God snapped his fingers and everything instantly appeared? creationism and darwinian development don't have to be mutually exclusive. why argue the "how" of it? If you believe that God brought something from nothing, can you be open to the idea that it did happen slowly, a process rather than an event? survival of the fittest and the effect it has upon different species is self evident - does that necessarily negate your faith in a Creator God?
the more you argue something about something that cannot be proven the less people are willing to listen to the truly important message of the Bible - The forgiveness availabe through Jesus Christ. That message is not dependent upon our understanding of the creation process.
I feel the same way when i hear people argue NO/Pre/Mid/Post tribulation rapture. Does it matter on anything other than an academic level? these are distractions from the one truly important message in the Bible forgiveness for disobedience.
And TS - do you really believe that one must have a noticeable void in one's life to seek God? i have always had "perfect" vision, so i never questioned my eyes. (yes, i choose to deny the aging process). i was at the eye dr's one day and decided to check my eyes out - not really thinking there were any issues. it turns out that i do need glasses for reading. i didn't realize i had a need until i had something to meet the unknown need right in front of my eyes. i can now see better than ever because of the glasses i didn't know i needed.
just a thought.
And TS - do you really believe that one must have a noticeable void in one's life to seek God? i have always had "perfect" vision, so i never questioned my eyes. (yes, i choose to deny the aging process). i was at the eye dr's one day and decided to check my eyes out - not really thinking there were any issues. it turns out that i do need glasses for reading. i didn't realize i had a need until i had something to meet the unknown need right in front of my eyes. i can now see better than ever because of the glasses i didn't know i needed.
just a thought.
Not a bad thought except for the fact that there is nothing to compare my vision against. There is no way to say that God is lacking in my life if Vishnu is the real deal. There is no way to say that I am missing Odin in my life if Cthulhu is the real deal.
What is the real deal?
And yes, I believe that people use religion/faith to fill a void in their lives even if they don't realize it. Otherwise what's the point?
Well, there's that whole ethnic cleansing thing but that's a whole other debate.
In fact, it's a distraction and a barrier to sharing the message of Christ - which is the central theme of our faith
The message of Christ is lost if you can't explain who He is or why He is essential. To explain that, you have to go back to the beginning.
The only book that has all the information you need to this end is the Bible. The bible has to be truthworthy in ALL of it's sections to be trustworthy in ANY of it's sections. Therefore, it has to be trustworthy from the first words.
I used to have a real big problem with the bible as a trustworthy document. In fact, it was the biggest reason why I wasn't a Christian. I was fully on the side of evolution and then I became a witch. I participated in ceremonies and came to know a creator God and I have seen spells, energies, and divination work firsthand.
Evolution went out the window. At that point I realized that we are not here by some lucky astronomical random chance, but rather, this universe was purposefully created and intelligently designed, and forces within that design can be manipulated, if you know how. Each person makes their own choices and must be responsible for the consequences of that choice.
I still believe that.
However, my study of the bible (including it's veracity) and other sources, along with my intellect, have shown me that there is compatibility with my beliefs as a witch and Christian beliefs, and harmony with what I have seen and experienced firsthand and those documents.
I guess you can call me a Christian Witch. And before anyone pulls out that old saying, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" in Exodus 22:17,
makesofha the Hebrew word used, is more accurately translated as "practitioner of sorcery", which is someone who is performing EVIL rituals to pagan gods (Baal, etc). Many Wiccans now use the term "Warlock" to mean someone who practices the dark arts. So IMO, the passage is more correctly translated as "Do not tolerate an evil sorceress to remain among you." (Yes, I have done my homework, teacher.)
Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.
Because there is no void in my life that can't be filled either with reason or an ability to understand that there are things out there that are beyond my control.
The needs of the spirit can't be filled with reason. Not only is pure reason a cold companion, it's faulty when it comes to things related to the soul. You're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when you sense a void in your life, you either try to work it out intellectually, or write it off as a "shit happens" moment. That's not filling anything, that's just analysis.
I don't need the hollow comfort of an invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being whose only context is derived by taking the word of someone who has the same frame of referrence as I do, but claims to be able to access the same invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being.
No one needs hollow comfort, but everyone searches for real peace. You shouldn't take anyone's word about anything spiritual - it's all there for you to find yourself. It would be nice if you could look at a Christian and see a real difference in their life, and have the truth become immediately apparent, but the fact is we aren't very good at being righteous. So just spend some time reflecting, without being defensive or running through all the sins of "the church" over the years, or all the times someone calling themselves Christian did something horrible.
At some point you realize some voids can't be filled with reason, and the only option left is to ask God to explain why. The trick is not to ignore the answer, which usually conflicts with what we want to hear ("Everything's going to be alright, just keep doing what you're doing.")
[/ramble]
The message of Christ is lost if you can't explain who He is or why He is essential. To explain that, you have to go back to the beginning.
Sheesh, I can't even post before 5 other people get in front of me. lol
Yes, I agree. But while we spend infinite amounts of time reflecting on the nature of hydrogen and oxygen and all the different ways they can be combined, there's water that needs bailing.
Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.
Jesus said he was him. That makes him either a liar, a nut, or the real deal.
BUT - OC why does it matter if the world was created in 6 literal days?
It matters because
God said he did it in 6 literal days.
I can choose to believe God did it just like He said He did in the Bible
or
I can choose to believe God lied to me and everyone else and I can't trust the Bible for anything.
It's an all or nothing proposition.
I choose the former.
creationism and darwinian development don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I can choose to believe God did it just like He said He did in the Bible
or
I can choose to believe men who have no faith in my God, who don't believe he even exists, and who have actively worked to destroy faith in Him.
why argue the "how" of it?
Because God said it happened one way. I have to take a stand and say "I believe God did it the way he says he did" or I have to stand and say "There is no God." or worse, "God is a liar."
Either God is a liar or he's not. If he's not, then the world was created in 6 literal days. If he is, then he is irrelevant and I can't believe any of it.
If you believe that God brought something from nothing, can you be open to the idea that it did happen slowly, a process rather than an event? survival of the fittest and the effect it has upon different species is self evident - does that necessarily negate your faith in a Creator God?
Not at all. Mutations and speciation happens. It's observable science. The question was creation in 6 literal days. Obviously the world today is not as it was then.
the more you argue something about something that cannot be proven the less people are willing to listen to the truly important message of the Bible - The forgiveness availabe through Jesus Christ. That message is not dependent upon our understanding of the creation process.
But that message IS dependant on it! If someone doesn't know why they need forgiveness, then Christ's redemption is meaningless. So you have to establish what sin is in order to explain forgiveness. To explain sin, you have to explain who the sin is against and WHY it's sin. That can only be done by explaining that God created this world. So to explain to someone what a gift Jesus gave, you HAVE to explain WHY he gave it. Creation is crucial to that understanding.
I feel the same way when i hear people argue NO/Pre/Mid/Post tribulation rapture. Does it matter on anything other than an academic level? these are distractions from the one truly important message in the Bible forgiveness for disobedience.
I don't think Revelationary discussion has as much importance as creation does to the meaning of Christ's sacrifice.
The needs of the spirit can't be filled with reason. Not only is pure reason a cold companion, it's faulty when it comes to things related to the soul. You're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when you sense a void in your life, you either try to work it out intellectually, or write it off as a "shit happens" moment. That's not filling anything, that's just analysis.
1) Why do you presume that there is a spiritual component the needs to be filled?
2) Not everything that occurs in our lives has a reason based on reason. Causality may exist but we may not be able to see it. Why make something up, wrap it in pretty trappings and call it truth if there may just be not other reason than causality?
No one needs hollow comfort, but everyone searches for real peace. You shouldn't take anyone's word about anything spiritual - it's all there for you to find yourself. It would be nice if you could look at a Christian and see a real difference in their life, and have the truth become immediately apparent, but the fact is we aren't very good at being righteous. So just spend some time reflecting, without being defensive or running through all the sins of "the church" over the years, or all the times someone calling themselves Christian did something horrible.
A made up story is still just a made up story, whether it comes from a mad arab, or some guy staring at his belly button. Either one may just be a different face of the same reality, but that still presumes the existence of some spiritual something.
At some point you realize some voids can't be filled with reason, and the only option left is to ask God to explain why. The trick is not to ignore the answer, which usually conflicts with what we want to hear ("Everything's going to be alright, just keep doing what you're doing.")
[/ramble]
Why ask why if there is no certainty as to whom to ask?
OC - i'm not saying that it definitely wasn't 6 literal, 24 hour days as we have them now. i am saying that it may have been otherwise. God's time frame, may not be ours. it has only been within recent centuries that we've even had a 12 month calendar. time was marked differently then. for instance - someone in the old testament lived 800 years. 800 years in a 10 month system vs a 12 month system is pretty significant, somewhere around 133 years in our current system of counting.
anyway - i'm not going to argue this, you are free to believe what you want. if it matters to you then by all means, go ahead. it isn't a sticking point for me. i don't are if it was one 24 hour day or one 24000 hour day. i'm thinking that if God can create something from nothing, then time isn't really that big of an issue for Him.
nowhere in the Bible have i seen a verse that says "and God created all the birds and the fish, etc within 2 rotations of the hands on his timex"
i guess what i was trying to get at is that you can't convince someone to have faith - you can only display yours and let them question and decide for themselves. i think too often we get wrapped up in trying to prove things that... anyway - do what works for you.
1) Why do you presume that there is a spiritual component the needs to be filled?
2) Not everything that occurs in our lives has a reason based on reason. Causality may exist but we may not be able to see it. Why make something up, wrap it in pretty trappings and call it truth if there may just be not other reason than causality?
I have the backing of umpteen jillion world religions, offshoots of such, and...well, don't be silly. If we weren't searching for the spiritual piece of the puzzle, both individually and corporately, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. We would have called it a moot point right around the time we discovered fire.
Finding the meaning behind the obvious causality is where spirituality comes in. If a butterfly flapping its wings causes a hurricane on the other side of the world, the people hit by the hurricane still want to know before they die, "Why am I here?"
Why ask why if there is no certainty as to whom to ask?
Address your question "To whom it may concern" and see who answers. My God answers anonymous questions - if the person asking has understanding as his/her motivation, and not "ok, show me what you got".
The obvious question to this is "yeah, but what if I don't believe in a spiritual nature?". I say you do believe in it, but have chosen to ignore it for some reason. It's inbred.
OC - i'm not saying that it definitely wasn't 6 literal, 24 hour days as we have them now. i am saying that it may have been otherwise. God's time frame, may not be ours. it has only been within recent centuries that we've even had a 12 month calendar. time was marked differently then. for instance - someone in the old testament lived 800 years. 800 years in a 10 month system vs a 12 month system is pretty significant, somewhere around 133 years in our current system of counting.
But God DID give us a timeframe:
"And the evening and the morning were the first DAY."
This says nothing about the months, I'm just talking about days...creation days. He gave us a reference then used that reference to tell us how he did it.
edit: If he did take millions of years, why wouldn't he just tell us he took millions of years?? Or say the word "age" or "period of time"? No, he told us how long a day was, and then told us how many days it took and what he created on which day. I have to believe he's not lying to us.
anyway - i'm not going to argue this, you are free to believe what you want. if it matters to you then by all means, go ahead. it isn't a sticking point for me. i don't are if it was one 24 hour day or one 24000 hour day. i'm thinking that if God can create something from nothing, then time isn't really that big of an issue for Him.
No, I don't think it's big issue for him...and it's not an issue for me, but the whole argument is an issue for me, for the reasons I've stated.
nowhere in the Bible have i seen a verse that says "and God created all the birds and the fish, etc within 2 rotations of the hands on his timex"
see above....
i guess what i was trying to get at is that you can't convince someone to have faith - you can only display yours and let them question and decide for themselves. i think too often we get wrapped up in trying to prove things that... anyway - do what works for you.
I agree. I can't give my faith to anyone. All I can do is say something or argue a point and hope that maybe it will cause them to think about that for a second, and maybe look a little deeper into it for themselves. Most of the time that doesn't happen, but what if, just one time, it did?
I have the backing of umpteen jillion world religions, offshoots of such, and...well, don't be silly. If we weren't searching for the spiritual piece of the puzzle, both individually and corporately, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. We would have called it a moot point right around the time we discovered fire.
Finding the meaning behind the obvious causality is where spirituality comes in. If a butterfly flapping its wings causes a hurricane on the other side of the world, the people hit by the hurricane still want to know before they die, "Why am I here?"
The obvious question to this is "yeah, but what if I don't believe in a spiritual nature?". I say you do believe in it, but have chosen to ignore it for some reason. It's inbred.
You miss my point. Just because there is a question doesn't mean that there is an answer. A cognitive need is not necessarily derived from the existence of some ephemeral entity.
And leave my family out of this. ;)
Address your question "To whom it may concern" and see who answers. My God answers anonymous questions - if the person asking has understanding as his/her motivation, and not "ok, show me what you got".
But you have yet to show any of these answers and how they differ from your run-of-the-mill hallucination.
I got your point, and thought I answered it. Actually, the fact that we ask the question on such a global scale (independent of society, race, language, organized religion, or geography) is an indication that "something's out there." The human race is and always has been longing to close our separation from God. Thanks, Adam n Eve.
How we go about bridging the gap is where religion comes in.
uh oh, I feel a metaphor coming on. I'll fight the urge.
But anyway, I do think the existence of a question proves that there must be an answer. When the question is preprogrammed into us, particularly.
As to the second question, I can't show you that. Only God can show you that. And he won't do it unless you ask (w/open heart, etc.) I repeat, no man or woman can "show" you God on a piece of paper. He walked among us for 33 years and offered proof after proof, and people still turned their backs.
I have a pic of him though. Younger guy, beard, wears a robe. If he came back down today, I think he'd probably blend a little better, but that was the thing back then.
...
:)
There's a book I just picked up called "Why God Won't Go Away" and it looks to be pretty interesting. It's mostly about the physiology of the religious experience.
As to everyone asking why, wouldn't a similarity of brain structure make that possible as well, since we all have brains? (I know, I know, stick to evidence. But brains have been proven to exist, it's their use that is in question.)
:)
There's a book I just picked up called "Why God Won't Go Away" and it looks to be pretty interesting. It's mostly about the physiology of the religious experience
This is interesting. What exactly is a "religious experience"?
This is interesting. What exactly is a "religious experience"?
I don't have the book with me. I'll quote it when I get home this evening. The guy(s) doing the book appear to lean towards the spiritual side so it's unlikely to be a bashing book.
Edit:
http://www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?page=title&titleID=788
From the Book Jacket:
Why have we humans always longed to connect with something larger than ourselves? Why does consciousness inevitably involve us in a spiritual quest? Why, in short, won't God go away? Theologians, philosophers, and psychologists have debated this question through the ages, arriving at a range of contradictory and ultimately unprovable answers. But in this brilliant, groundbreaking new book, researchers Andrew Newberg and Eugene d'Aquili offer an explanation that is at once profoundly simple and scientifically precise: the religious impulse is rooted in the biology of the brain.
Newberg and d'Aquili base this revolutionary conclusion on a long-term investigation of brain function and behavior as well as studies they conducted using high-tech imaging techniques to examine the brains of meditating Buddhists and Franciscan nuns at prayer. What they discovered was that intensely focused spiritual contemplation triggers an alteration in the activity of the brain that leads us to perceive transcendent religious experiences as solid and tangibly real. In other words, the sensation that Buddhists call "oneness with the universe" and the Franciscans attribute to the palpable presence of God is not a delusion or a manifestation of wishful thinking but rather a chain of neurological events that can be objectively observed, recorded, and actually photographed.
The inescapable conclusion is that God is hard-wired into the human brain.
In Why God Won't Go Away, Newberg and d'Aquili document their pioneering explorations in the field of neurotheology, an emerging discipline dedicated to understanding the complex relationship between spirituality and the brain. Along the way, they delve into such essential questions as whether humans are biologically compelled to make myths; what is the evolutionary connection between religious ecstasy and sexual orgasm; what do Near Death Experiences reveal about the nature of spiritual phenomena; and how does ritual create its own neurological environment. As their journey unfolds, Newberg and d'Aquili realize that a single, overarching question lies at the heart of their pursuit: Is religion merely a product of biology or has the human brain been mysteriously endowed with the unique capacity to reach and know God?
Blending cutting-edge science with illuminating insights into the nature of consciousness and spirituality, Why God Won't Go Away bridges faith and reason, mysticism and empirical data. The neurological basis of how the brain identifies the "real" is nothing short of miraculous. This fascinating, eye-opening book dares to explore both the miracle and the biology of our enduring relationship with God.
interesting. let me know how it turns out.
If that's your bag ;)
I'm sure there is a neurological component associated with religious experiences. The harder sell for me is that the brain causes religious experience rather than reacts to it.
If a tree lands on your head, your brain says "Ow." The tree landing on the head was an independent event, however.
A better way of sating may be that religion is a side effect of the brain stucture that produced "feel good" for certain behaviors that enhanced survival.
Spatial disconnect (OOBE), endorphins, seratonin, whatever...
However, my study of the bible (including it's veracity) and other sources, along with my intellect, have shown me that there is compatibility with my beliefs as a witch and Christian beliefs, and harmony with what I have seen and experienced firsthand and those documents....Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.
Ahhh, maybe this would help me a lot. I never took a religion class in college, and have often wished I had. Do you (or anyone reading this thread!!) have any recommendations of books or other resources (I only have the web at work, and I already am pushing it as often as I am HERE :)) that kind of give a basic background to different religions etc.? THANKS!
I'm sure there is a neurological component associated with religious experiences. The harder sell for me is that the brain causes religious experience rather than reacts to it.
If a tree lands on your head, your brain says "Ow." The tree landing on the head was an independent event, however.
Hoo Boy, this is a topic for a whole 'nother thread... Your brain can say 'ow' even if a tree never touches you. In fact, a phantom pain in amputated limbs is a good real life example of this. So are the hallucinations of scitzophrenics [SIZE=1](whoa, murdered the spelling on that one, there should be an h in there somewhere, i know it)[/SIZE] and persons on other illegal drugs. I've seen a bi-polar person in a state of mania with hallucinations who believed she was in direct communication with God [SIZE=1](and my dead father), [/SIZE] and it was an eye opening experience.
Ahhh, maybe this would help me a lot. I never took a religion class in college, and have often wished I had. Do you (or anyone reading this thread!!) have any recommendations of books or other resources (I only have the web at work, and I already am pushing it as often as I am HERE :)) that kind of give a basic background to different religions etc.? THANKS!
Start by reading the holy books themselves. I personally have read the Koran, the Bible, the Talmud (that is a LONG read), the Witches Bible, lots of books by Scott Cunningham, and various other texts like the Book of the Dead. Most of these are available online, in e-format and amazon.com.
There are compendiums of other philosophies (Eastern and African) that you can get, usually at the library. They will give you titles of various holy books of those beliefs and you're off again!
I'm one of those people that buys my books because I make notes in the margins. :D
Before I left Vegas, I had a HUGE 8 foot oak bookshelf filled (sometimes doubled up) with books. Left most of them behind when I moved to NC, tho, or I would mail some to you. :( The rest I packed up and took to my mom's in CA. I'll get out there to pick them up one day...
But yeah. Read the books for yourself, don't just take someone's word for it. There's something to be said for experiencing the scriptures of various cultures for yourself.
For a real basic overview, you can go to beliefnet.org, which has many many many different religious forums and information.
Hmm....why dont i believe in God? Well .....simply put I looked at the available evidence and came to the conclusion that there is no God....having reached that conclusion I don't see a reason to arttificially insert God into my worldview. To me God, Gods , religion and faith are all just ideas which humanity has come up with to deal with questions which science had not yet found answers to. As far as I am concerned science can now make better answers than the bible ever could and leaves little or no room for the supernatural.
Mr Noodle:) I wasnt being aggressive I was being humourous......for me the whole idea of God, Jesus, Shiva, Jehova and zeus all come under the same category as the tooth fairy....that is to say, a pleasant fiction with which we raise our children.
For me, religion is simply a way of seeking comfort , but having decided that there is no God ( I cannot emphasise that point enough....I dont simply "not believe in God, rather I "know" there is no God, in much the same way as a Christian "knows" there is one.) it seems a hollow comfort at best.
I really do think Marx's view of religion as the opiate of the masses holds true. I choose not to delude myself with that opiate
Hmm....why dont i believe in God? Well .....simply put I looked at the available evidence and came to the conclusion that there is no God....having reached that conclusion I don't see a reason to arttificially insert God into my worldview. To me God, Gods , religion and faith are all just ideas which humanity has come up with to deal with questions which science had not yet found answers to. As far as I am concerned science can now make better answers than the bible ever could and leaves little or no room for the supernatural.
For me, religion is simply a way of seeking comfort , but having decided that there is no God ( I cannot emphasise that point enough....I dont simply "not believe in God"; rather I "know" there is no God, in much the same way as a Christian "knows" there is one.) it seems a hollow comfort at best.
I really do think Marx's view of religion as the opiate of the masses holds true. I choose not to delude myself with that opiate
Mr Noodle:) I wasnt being aggressive I was being humorous......for me the whole idea of God, Jesus, Shiva and Jehova all come under the same category as the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus....that is to say, a pleasant fiction with which we raise our children.
Dana, since you believe there is no God, I have some questions for you.
1) It appears from your posts you believe science has the answers. Would you consider yourself a person who believes in the evolutionary theory as origin of man?
2) Do you consider yourself a "good" person or a "bad" person? How can you tell? Where did you establish your moral code? What makes a person good or bad in your view? What actions are good and bad in your view?
3) Do you have any concept of afterlife? Do you have a soul? If so, What happens to it when you die? If not, what makes each person unique?
Dana, since you believe there is no God...
I think I'll take a stab at these after DanaC does.
and when you're done, i want to try something. it might fizzle, it might be a good time. since i believe the bible can answer any question regarding faith, i'm going to try to argue from a strictly biblical standpoint and see what happens. there are several really good online bibles now.
Starting with:
Matt. 16:1-4 -- "The Pharisees and Sadducees came to put Jesus to the test. They asked him to show them a miraculous sign from heaven. He replied, "In the evening you look at the sky. You say, 'It will be good weather. The sky is red.' And in the morning you say, 'Today it will be stormy. The sky is red and cloudy.' You know the meaning of what you see in the sky. But you can't understand the signs of what is happening right now. An evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But none will be given to them except the sign of Jonah."
Then Jesus left them and went away. "