tw & me

TW. How about give us a break? I would love to pee on GWB, but hell Posting the almost same shit in so may threads sucks.
ME. Thanks for the link in ever thread on this board ;) :D

Sounds like a title for a television show.

"TW and Me: Life with an STD"

busterb wrote:

TW. How about give us a break? I would love to pee on GWB, but hell Posting the almost same shit in so may threads sucks.

When a man screws millions of people - and just sits on his thing looking presidential - then one cannot say enough times what the man really is. Today - how many days after the disaster - finally the first few American choppers have arrived. Did they off load the jets to make room for more choppers? No. They only have the few choppers that come with the battle group. Apparantly the Abe Lincoln was sitting in the area for days waiting to be dispatched. Then had no time to get more of the right aircraft. A Marine Expeditionary force that was desperately needed last Monday - is still in the South China sea and will not arrive until next week. The convoy of food from Guam that could not start until the president could make a deicison. That will take another two weeks. In the meantime, the one force that is larger than all other countries combined sat there for five days waiting to be told a disaster had occurred. This is not about hate of GWB. This is a classic example of defective and MBA trained management - and thousands of people who died as a result. If these people had been Americans, we would be talking of impeachment. He was that bad. He waited for world condemnation to tell him what his job was.

People died in the thousands only because a mental midget president is just that. These are facts so grave as to be stated bluntly. They must be. George Jr caused the death of 98,000 Iraqis. Now he let thousands die in the Indian Ocean by stifling Americans who desperately wanted to help. For five days, the American government with the best response in the region, instead did nothing. Please - anyone - tell me where the 'moral' is in this man. We are talking about leadership abilities and citing the worst - George Jr - as a #1 example. Those who don't like it need not read it. But it is a fact that few here want to admit.

What striked me most? This is the same "don't worry, be happy" silence from so many here when George Jr outrightly lied about and invaded Iraq. At what point do Americans worry about their own future and reponsbilities? Acting this way only makes "Ugly Americans".

tw wrote:

Please - anyone - tell me where the 'moral' is in this man. We are talking about leadership abilities and citing the worst - George Jr - as a #1 example. Those who don't like it need not read it. But it is a fact that few here want to admit.

Who doesn't want to admit it? I've seen NUMEROUS people standing up and saying "Hell yeah, the dude's an idjit." (paraphrasing.. :) )

What striked me most? This is the same "don't worry, be happy" silence from so many here when George Jr outrightly lied about and invaded Iraq. At what point do Americans worry about their own future and reponsbilities? Acting this way only makes "Ugly Americans".

There was hardly silence.

You're just as guilty of spin as the media. Shame on you.

And if those choppers show up with clean underwear when what the people need is clean water, or vice-versa, so what- the important thing is to get there first, so that we LOOK like we care. Sort of like the old approach to such things - just give a bunch of money to ineffective groups to dole out what looks like aid on camera. Or run into Somalia with humanitarian purposes in mind and get horribly involved in the politics by accident. Boy, at least we LOOKED like we cared back then eh?

In the other thread, the article posted about sri lanka...mentions that US planes were already there...

So maybe...just possibly.. TW doesn't know the full story?

Well that's why I decided to poke tw on this... he never answered my questions about the C-130s.

TW. If you'll start a recall, impeachment I'll be one of the frist to sign it.

Undertoad wrote:

And if those choppers show up with clean underwear when what the people need is clean water, or vice-versa, so what- the important thing is to get there first, so that we LOOK like we care.

Problem with that reasoning is that all that stuff now being distributed is exactly what was sitting on those ships one week ago. And yes, those ships even carry water purification systems that can be deployed immediately. Those ships sat three days away with so much of what the disaster needed - including transport to get it there. UT, your reasoning is correct if the ships did not have what was needed on day one. Using only what was already onboard, those ships are finally deploying what was needed one week ago. Americans had ready to deploy one week ago the foods, medicines, medical aid, water purifiaction system, tents, etc that were desperately needed. Stifled for five days until George Jr could make a deicison.

If you drop supplies on a dock to rot, or get stolen, or held and defended by the strongest motherfucker in the area, you have served no useful purpose.

Relief work is not just about getting the right supplies to the right place. It's about getting them distributed to the people who actually need them. You also have to look at what you're handing out — What use is a ton of dried milk and rice if you don't also have clean water?

Undertoad wrote:

Well that's why I decided to poke tw on this... he never answered my questions about the C-130s.

Six C-130s (medium transport planes) constitutes a response to 5 million people? They needed thousands of transport planes. They need people on the ground to unload and distribute that aid. And they need cooridinators (ie air traffic control) that comes with the first 100 planes. Tell me what six C-130s are other than a politically correct response.

A drop of water in the barrel - and then proclaim to the world that George Jr is a 'moral' man? That's bull. That is why the US again looked so foolish in the eyes of the world. In the meantime little countries such as New Zealand and Australia were crowding the runways with assistance.

What first responders need is not difficult. Food. Shelter. Medical teams with medicines. Clean water. Blankets. Literally the basic materials to save and maintain life ... for 5 million people. And so we sent 6 C-130s and P-3 Orions. What do P-3 Orions normally do? Hunt submarines. Where is aid being delivered by P-3 Orions survelliance planes?

Onyxcougar - which planes were in Sri Lanka days after the Tsunami? P-3 Orions? Anti-submarine warfare planes? Or planes with supplies. Tell me. What planes did the president send to Sri Lanka?

wolf wrote:

If you drop supplies on a dock to rot, or get stolen, or held and defended by the strongest motherfucker in the area, you have served no useful purpose.

Relief work is not just about getting the right supplies to the right place. It's about getting them distributed to the people who actually need them. You also have to look at what you're handing out — What use is a ton of dried milk and rice if you don't also have clean water?

Exactly. So where are the people on the ground to distribute even the paltry aid from six C-130s. What was most needed immediately in those countries with the food, water, etc? What were the countries requesting first and foremost? People on the ground who could distribute the aid. Did American send even that in the first 5 days? Of course not. We sent some small transports - C-130s - and not even the ground crews to start the distribution.

America has abilities to repair airstrips and provide air traffic control to any airport immediately. But it too sat stifled for five days while a president decided to make a decision. Fortuntately other nations are responsible.

Did America deploy such abillities in the first week? No. Only one thing stopped the American government response. George Jr had to make a decision. One week too late - this stuff is finally moving.

BTW why are airstrips so congested? Why do they need so many more feet on the ground to distribute a conjestion of supplies at the airstrips? Because so many supplies were flown in by tiny New Zealand and Australia when they were most needed. They could not put enough feet into the distribution system. However those others who are truly 'moral' responded immediately when most needed - while America waited for George Jr to decide this was a disaster.

*sigh*

thanks, buster, for giving him a fifth thread.

Just for tidiness sake, tw, could you go back to the best and worst of 2004 that you thread pirated on this topic, just to keep it all in one place?

tw wrote:

Six C-130s (medium transport planes) constitutes a response to 5 million people? They needed thousands of transport planes. They need people on the ground to unload and distribute that aid. And they need cooridinators (ie air traffic control) that comes with the first 100 planes. Tell me what six C-130s are other than a politically correct response.

What is your problem?

You act like these people are a bunch of idiots that can't co-ordinate or communicate. There are people in EVERY country who are responsible for COORDINATION of relief efforts and COMMUNICATING those needs to relief agencies and foreign governments.

As it's been stated already 3 or 4 times, we have to wait for those needs to be communicated to us and permission granted before we go charging in to the rescue.

A drop of water in the barrel - and then proclaim to the world that George Jr is a 'moral' man? That's bull. That is why the US again looked so foolish in the eyes of the world. In the meantime little countries such as New Zealand and Australia were crowding the runways with assistance.

OK. Cite for me the day and time at which need was communicated to all the countries you're listing off, and their response, and at what time the planes from the GOVERNMENTS (not relief agencies) landed in each country affected.

Until you have that information, quit yer bitchin.

What first responders need is not difficult. Food. Shelter. Medical teams with medicines. Clean water. Blankets. Literally the basic materials to save and maintain life ... for 5 million people. And so we sent 6 C-130s and P-3 Orions. What do P-3 Orions normally do? Hunt submarines. Where is aid being delivered by P-3 Orions survelliance planes?

See above.

Onyxcougar - which planes were in Sri Lanka days after the Tsunami? P-3 Orions? Anti-submarine warfare planes? Or planes with supplies. Tell me. What planes did the president send to Sri Lanka?

I don't know, TW, because I WASN'T THERE and *gasp* neither were you. Why don't you ask the person who wrote the article.

Duh.

Wouldn't surprise me if some of the first supplies contained Spam & canned ham. Which the Muslims might not eat.

The C-130s are exactly what's required. When what you have is a disaster area hundreds of thousands of miles long, but one block deep, the critical thing is not a lack of supplies, but getting them to the place they're needed.

It turns out the C-130s can not only take things to the location but take off with new supplies for another location. A water purification system that stays in one location - great for that one location, too bad for every other location... unless you have helos and C130s to move that water around.

Now remind us, how did the critical C-130s take off without that executive decision that was supposedly required on day five?

busterb wrote:

Wouldn't surprise me if some of the first supplies contained Spam & canned ham. Which the Muslims might not eat.

Well, gee, you know, Jews don't eat spam or pork either, but they refused assistance from them, didn't they?

OnyxCougar wrote:

Well, gee, you know, Jews don't eat spam or pork either, but they refused assistance from them, didn't they?

Not completely true.

Undertoad wrote:

The C-130s are exactly what's required. When what you have is a disaster area hundreds of thousands of miles long, but one block deep, the critical thing is not a lack of supplies, but getting them to the place they're needed.

Six C-130s did all that? Guess again. Needed on the first days are hundreds of small C-130s. And who has them (including the ones that don't work because they were built as pork for Trent Lott)? The one organization that was not permitted to respond for five days. The US government waited for George Jr to respond.

But C-130s are not what is really needed. Needed are bigger planes that fly faster, need not land, and deliver more supplies.

Furthermore, the disaster is so extensive that even helicopters find it difficult to land. What is a paltry 6 C-130s suppose to do? What are P-3 Orions (I believe he sent nine) going to do? Show me supplies being delivered by P-3 Orions. Its called waving the flag. Pretend help has arrived. In the meantime even India - a victim - was also providing more aid to those adjacent nations. Why? They did not have a mental midget president who thought six C-130s were big planes. Instead India was sending serious aid.

Real aid does not start until the C-17s and C-5A start landing. Its been one week. Where are they? Oh. The president had to make a decision.

:confused:

"Small" C-130s? Aren't they all the same size??

wolf wrote:

"Small" C-130s? Aren't they all the same size??

C-130s are medium transport planes. They should have been out of production long ago because the C-130 - as military transport - was not a small plane. C-17s do what the C-130 did - but better. Any money wasted on C-130Js means less of the larger, faster, more efficient C-17s. Ironic, those latest built C-130s (done only for Senator pork reasons) still are not operational. Once the C-130 was a big transport. No longer. C-130s are small transport planes - as the DC-10 once was a big cargo plane.

visual aid:

sycamore wrote:

Not completely true.

understood, but my point was really about commonality of eating habits in regards to.... never mind.

Yes, the C-17 is one hell of an aircraft in that it’ll carry 85 tons at 500 mph, and with in-flight refueling, fly around the world. All it needs is a 3000 x 92 foot dirt strip to get in and out because they can routinely back up to do a 3 point turn on the strip.

Now the C-130 is also a good aircraft, 23 tons at almost 300 knots for 2500 miles. Not only short strip capable but they have this neat trick of yanking a cargo pallet (up to 38000 lbs) out the back door with a ‘chute while flying 10’ off the ground and not having to land at all.

Of course the C-130 is $23 million (1992$) whereas the C- 17 is $202 million (1998$).
One problem is there are only 118 C- 17s on active duty (8 reserve) and we do have a couple of wars going on. We do have C-130s, however, like fleas on a dog.

PS- I think the purpose of the P- 3 Orions is with their electronic equipment they can find things (even as small as a person) anywhere on land or water.

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

Now the C-130 is also a good aircraft, 23 tons at almost 300 knots for 2500 miles. Not only short strip capable but they have this neat trick of yanking a cargo pallet (up to 38000 lbs) out the back door with a ‘chute while flying 10’ off the ground and not having to land at all.

Capabilities of the C-130 was the objective of C-17s. The higher price? Notice who (unfortunately) designed and built the C-17 - which is why the plane so desperately needed took so long to get deployed.

Best way to distribute aid is not to land at distribution airports. Fly the material direct from the source to where it is needed, parachute it out the back, do same at the so many locations, then get back to base faster for more supplies. Its the same concept that made Walmart so successful. Eliminate the management problem. IOW we don't need C-130s waiting while other craft unload, reload on C-130, then slowly fly to where cargo is needed. They needed it last week - ASAP while the president sat on his ass. The Tsunami relief was a perfect job for C-17s. But instead we sent near zero response. Some C-130s and some survelliance planes.

BTW, where does that map show the non-operational squadron due to defective C-130J? Forgot where that Congressional pork was deployed - at the expense of a more necessary C-17. Where are they? Or why did that map forget to discuss the C-130J?

A little trivia. The same C-130 that took off in Washington on 11 September (bound for MN), was ordered to follow AA flight 77, and saw it strike the Pentagon - is the same C-130 flight that found AA flight 93 burning in PA.

tw, have you ever seen a parachute drop of mass supplies? again very useful, but these aren't guided munitions - you have to drop them away from populated areas or John Q Citizen gets real upset when his house, kid, dog are crushed under a few thousand pounds of water and mre's.

distribution is the key.

Hey Tee? How many relief operations have you co-ordinated? Were you on site where the relief was needed or were you in the command center co-ordinating drops?

Notice who (unfortunately) designed and built the C-17 - which is why the plane so desperately needed took so long to get deployed.

MacDonald Douglas. They went close to bankrupt thanks to CEO Harry Stoneciphers propensity for sucking up to the Pentagon and ignoring their commercial business.
Boeing bought them to head off a European bid to grab one of our biggest defense contractors. Now Harry runs Boeing. :(
The C-17 is one of the most sophisticated aircraft ever built, including the fighters and spy planes.

Or why did that map forget to discuss the C-130J?

The map show OPERATIONAL C-130s.
The 50 C-130j's, built by Lockheed Martin, are assigned to 2 Air Squadrons which have been nonoperational for 4 years and 3 Guard and Reserve Units.
LM got in over their head on the J's and the military mistakenly tried to go along until LM could get it right rather than bankrupting them.
They had about 850 non-spec problems with about 160 of them category 1 which is life threatening.

I think the best bet for delivering supplies and extracacting people in the Chinook Helicopter. Remember the picture of one with it's rear ramp down on an Afghani rooftop? Unfortunately they are tied up in a couple of wars.

Hmmm... Didn't I put up a perfectly good GW lockbox thread...? ;)

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

I think the best bet for delivering supplies and extracacting people in the Chinook Helicopter. Remember the picture of one with it's rear ramp down on an Afghani rooftop? Unfortunately they are tied up in a couple of wars.

Where's the Osprey when you need it? It's one of my favorite aircraft designs, in addition to being one of the most disappointing. I've seen one give a demonstration at Pensacola NAS several times, it's a truly astounding piece of hardware.

A pity really, it's ideal for this situation.

The propwash would blow people off the beach. :(

Griff wrote:

Hmmm... Didn't I put up a perfectly good GW lockbox thread...? ;)

Which is all about the lies and deceit of a mental midget president. Even mythical is an idea that we can invest social security money - because the money was taken to pay for an illegal 'liberation' in Iraq. Investing your social security money in stock markets assumes the voter also believes the bible to be fact. A stock broker such as Lookout123 would love such myths. Says much about his real religion.

To demonstrate a problem with reality was a need 'on day one' to be dropping a pallet of essential food, water, First Aid medical supplies and blankets onto open and devestated fields that were once villages. Lookout123 distorts facts to deny this. After all, that meant a lying president had to admit that day that a disaster occurred. So many are so easily deceived as to even take biblical scriptures literally. They even defend the mental midget for doing nothing as people sat dying.

have you ever seen a parachute drop of mass supplies? again very useful, but these aren't guided munitions - you have to drop them away from populated areas

He assumes that open fields that were once villages are still chock full of people. He assumes the people will be so stupid as to stand only in the one spot that pallet will land. He assumes the people will still be alive seven days later - that the first pallet was not necessary on day one. He does this because he must defend the mental midget and so called 'moral' president at all costs. Lookout123 even changes facts to claim aid could not have been dispatched for 5+ days. Therefore the president was right to take 5 days to decide a disaster had occurred. He was right to stifle thousands of Americans in the region who desperately wanted to save lives.

The president is right to claim social secuity money can be invested elsewhere? Notice George Jr is quick to leave details up to others - because he proposes but another myth.

Reality - whether it takes 5 days to decide people have died or whether the SS monies can be invested elsewhere - or even that Israeli are all good and Arabs are all evil - it still comes back to a mental midget president elected by those who would impose their religion on all others. Evangelicals such as Lookout123.

The perfect plane required in first days of the Tsunami were C17s that could have carried supplies long distance, parachuted them to starving and dying villagers, and get back for more supplies that same day. But another lie supported by evanglical extremists called 'the liberation of Iraq' make that not possible - as another has so properly noted. Iraqi comes first. A president stalled - remained indecisive - as if a Tsunami did not happen. Then offers up a paltry $15million to prove how moral he can be.

The point of the thread has not changed. It remains about the lying president and those extremists who will say anything to protect that liar. The lockbox is a myth due to the same president who undermined the Oslo Accords and almost got us into a war over a silly spy plane. Same president who denied for 5 days that people were dying. We call him 'moral'? Better to call him evangelical. Then he is not lying. He was just mistaken.

But once they got rolling, from The Diplomad

Sitting VERY late for two consecutive nights in interminable meetings with UN reps, hearing them go on about "taking the lead coordination role," pledges, and the impending arrival of this or that UN big shot or assessment/coordination team, for the millionth time I realized that if not for Australia and America almost nobody in the tsunami-affected areas would have survived more than a few days. If we had waited for the UNocrats to get their act coordinated, the already massive death toll would have become astronomical. But, fortunately, thanks to "retrograde racist war-mongers " such as John Howard and George W. Bush, as we sat in air conditioned meeting rooms with these UNocrats, young Australians and Americans were at that moment "coordinating" without the UN and saving the lives of tens-of-thousands of people.

And

we have in our possession a short situation report circulated by the Dutch at the most recent EU meeting here in this corner of the Far Abroad. This January 2 report is written by local Dutch diplomats who traveled to Aceh and saw the reality on the ground. We will cite the two principal paragraphs, and leave them unedited in their original rather charming Dutch-English.

The US military has arrived and is clearly establishing its presence everywhere in Banda Aceh. They completely have taken over the military hospital, which was a mess until yesterday but is now completely up and running. They brought big stocks of medicines, materials for the operation room, teams of doctors, water and food. Most of the patients who were lying in the hospital untreated for a week have undergone medical treatment by the US teams by this afternoon. US military have unloaded lots of heavy vehicles and organize the logistics with Indonesian military near the airport. A big camp is being set up at a major square in the town. Huge generators are ready to provide electricity. US helicopters fly to places which haven't been reached for the whole week and drop food. The impression it makes on the people is also highly positive; finally something happens in the city of Banda Aceh and finally it seems some people are in control and are doing something. No talking but action. European countries are until now invisible on the ground. IOM staff (note: this is a USAID-funded organization) is very busy briefing the incoming Americans and Australians about the situation.

:)

wow, that was a great post tw. thanks for succinctly answering the questions i had posed. i appreciate your restrained, unheated posting style. thank you for setting me straight. recap: lookout123 = extremist, gwb = mental midget, air drops = best course of action, iraq war = bad. got it, thanks.

Well, it's nice that we are on the ball in Indonesia. Isn't it much nicer when you try to help people who actually want the help and don't shoot at you? It's also good that GWB turned over the US response to his father and Bill Clinton, two smarter presidents who are not viewed by a majority of the world's population as a boob.

Don't feel bad, Lookout. He didn't answer mine either.

I guess we're just stereotypical religious extremists with no thought or minds of our own, controlled by the media and the MBA.

OnyxCougar wrote:

Don't feel bad, Lookout. He didn't answer mine either.

It would have been nice to have something to reply to. By responding to sentences one at a time, you were not responding to an idea or concept. In fact, I expected you to grade my spelling. Onyxcougar, if you really wanted a response, then post in coherent paragraphs. Nit picking sentences is how one avoids the context.

I could not respond to something that was not coherent because it nit picked sentences rather than address an issue. I read your post four times and came to the same conclusion: What is she saying?

lookout123 wrote:

wow, that was a great post tw. thanks for succinctly answering the questions i had posed.

When will you answer THE question? When will you apologize for a president who could not make a decision for five days while people died? Instead you ran away as soon as the hard question was asked.

For five days, the president sat in denial - stifling thousands of good Americans in government who therefore could do nothing to save lives. Notice only 2 days after the president finally admits a disaster had occured, then massive aid was everywhere. Why did that aid sit stifled for five days? Why did a mental midget evangelical president do nothing for five days? Lookout123 must avoid this question because he supports the mental midget no matter how many good people must die - including 98,000 in Iraq. Lookout123 also calls that 'moral'. Notice he will not admit this president was again incompetant. That would harm his religious agenda.

Go ahead Lookout123. Explain why it took George Jr five days to view satellite photographs from his PDBs? Did this same president not learn to read PDBs after permtting bin Laden to attack the WTC?

Lookout123 avoids hard questions such as, "When will we go after bin Laden." Clearly the religious, such as George Jr, protect other religious extremists such as bin Laden. Still waiting for Lookout123 to answer that hard question as well. He can't. So instead he mocks what I had posted.

Go ahead Lookout1213. Post as an honest man - and not as a religous extremist. Answer the questions? When will you apologize for a president who could not make a decision for five days? When will the president finally decide to go after bin Laden? Prove you are honest and therefore not a religous extremist. Answer the hard questions.

Prove you are honest and therefore not a religous extremist.

you really expect me to prove i am not something when you have produced no evidence that i am? :confused:

When will you apologize for a president who could not make a decision for five days?

And furthermore Lookout, when did you stop beating your wife?! :eyebrow:

I'm curious. Is there an option to filter/block messages by something in their body, for instance the phrase "mental midget"?

lookout123 wrote:

you really expect me to prove i am not something when you have produced no evidence that i am? :confused:

Heck, i'm trying to figure out where religious extremism = dishonesty.

That's just simply one of the most interesting oxymorons I've ever seen.

Just a few things I want to ask...that I did not see covered in the above spatter of information....

1. Did TW not see that US troops were on the ground the day after the disaster doing what they could? (I saw it on the news, am looking for the source). Yes, our big battle groups may not have been there until later, but we were there helping, right away.
2. Does TW not realize that merely having a US military presence on the ground, daily costs an average of $10Mil US? (Gee, let's calculate, 7 Days, * 10 Mil = roughly 70 Million dollars...on top of the pleged 35 mil at first, that was then Increased to 350 Mil, that was then given pretty much a bottomless bucket, with Powell saying we'll give what they need...no matter what)
3. Has TW dug cash out of his pocket and offered it up to assist...or does he just take pot shots from the comfort of his easy chair?
4. You may not agree with Bush and his politics, hell, you may not even like him as a person, you may be holding on to a lot of bitter rage after the 'grand disappointment' in November, but damn man, 150K people died, and no, it was NOT President Bush's fault, so why don't you take a pill and stop trying to blame someone for an 'act of God'.

Oh, and yes, I'm a Christian in a round about sort of way by definition.......and if you want to call me a religious extremist because I believe the way I do, go ahead....it won't be any skin off my nose.

Kellie

lookout123 wrote:

you really expect me to prove i am not something when you have produced no evidence that i am?

I expect you to be honest rather than religious extremist. An honest man has no problem with these questions.
1) When do we go after bin Laden?
2) When will you admit that George Jr sat on his righteous ass - did nothing - for 5 days as people were dying?

These are not hard questions for honest people. Lookout123 is so extremist - so much a supporter of the mental midget president - that he must completely avoid these simple questions. Question one has been put to Lookout123 what - maybe 15 times? He still fears to answer as an honest man.

Bush press conference on day three, announces teleconferencing with affected world leaders and pledges the first aid

Day three. Honesty, tw? Honesty?

Now look, I know the Times put all this shit at chimpy's feet, but 1) it happened the day after Christmas, and 2) the fact that they went around the UN in three days starting the day after Christmas turned out to be a REAL winner in hindsight.

It turned out that most other Western leaders were off on vacation too, as was Annan (who REALLY didn't return for five days).

Dagney wrote:

1. Did TW not see that US troops were on the ground the day after the disaster doing what they could? ... Yes, our big battle groups may not have been there until later, but we were there helping, right away.
2. Does TW not realize that merely having a US military presence on the ground, daily costs an average of $10Mil US? (Gee, let's calculate, 7 Days, * 10 Mil = roughly 70 Million dollars...on top of the pleged 35 mil at first, that was then Increased to 350 Mil, that was then given pretty much a bottomless bucket, with Powell saying we'll give what they need...no matter what)
3. Has TW dug cash out of his pocket and offered it up to assist...or does he just take pot shots from the comfort of his easy chair?
4. You may not agree with Bush and his politics, hell, you may not even like him as a person, you may be holding on to a lot of bitter rage after the 'grand disappointment' in November, but damn man, 150K people died, and no, it was NOT President Bush's fault, so why don't you take a pill and stop trying to blame someone for an 'act of God'.

Correct. With thousands of troops but days away, instead we sent a paltry 6 C-130s and some recon planes. Since numbers are calculated to three significant digits, then 100 troops is the equivalent of zero. This in a region that contained thousands of Americans waiting - stifled - five days to help. The Marines that could have been there on day 7, instead, arrived on day 14. They too were delayed one week by a president who took five days to be humiliated into the truth.

Needed on day one was food, medicine, tools, and other aid that America could have been delivering that day. No one knows how many 10,000s died because aid never arrived. No one could have matched America's ability to save tens of thousands - if only the president permitted Americans to help. Instead George Jr stalled for a week. When both information and aid were most needed, then he who had full information and thousands of troops in the region, instead, sat on his righteous ass.

He never even told our allies how dire the situation was. They, with less information, had to mock America before George Jr would admit the obvious. George Jr just sat there until Thursday - after the world rightly humiliated us. We who had more in the region to send when it was needed most, instead, just sat on our ass. In the meantime, tens of thousands more died.

The first American response was costing about $6 million per day. So what? Why do you misrepresent the American contribution? The fact that George Jr only offered $15million says he would not offer help. The money demonstrates George Jr's mindset. The size of his pledge represents George Jr's mental attitude. He couldn't be bothered to pledge money if he denied a tragedy had occurred.

Why did the world redicule a paltry $15 million pledge? Was it because we did not pledge enough? Don't insult the world. $15 million says George Jr refused to acknowledge a Tsunami disaster for 5 days. If he was moral, then the Lincoln would have been dispatched that day - and no one would have been talking paltry money. It took redicule and humiliation to get the mental midget to admit a disaster. Ridicule of an immoral president started with his paltry $15million. The point - leadership of an immoral president.

Apparent, Dagney, you have not yet appreciated why a $15 million pledge was such an embarrassment. It basically said the 12 Indian Ocean nations, "Screw you. We have already decided your disaster is not significant". George Jr said that even with satellite photos sitting on his desk that said otherwise. Where is the morality from a man who could have parachuted pallets of emergency aid that day and had the USS Lincoln there but days later. How is it so moral to let thousands die for five days? Paltry money numbers represents the immoral mindset of a righteous George Jr. He could have pledged $1billion weeks later. It does not change the mindset of a "let them die" president.

Let them die? Its not our problem? How many ten thousands died because no help arrived for more than 3 critical days - in part because George Jr did not care. Where is the morality in that response? Those first three days were the most critical. George Jr sat on his righteous ass for *five* days. Where is the morality? The good and moral Christian response had to come from the rest of the world - when the world so accurately rediculed George Jr.

What was Powell doing while trying to clean up the president's mess? Probably again trying to get the president to get off his ass and be responsible. Behind the scenes, this again sounds like a frustrated Powell quietly appauled at this president's response. Powell had to spin something from no response. As was so obvious on Nightline with George Stephenopolis, Powell was representing a president who did nothing. The word used to describe Powell's 'no win' situation? He 'bristled'. We did nothing for 5 days. Powell again was stuck cleaning up the embarrassment.

Show me how a moral president could just sit there for 5 days and offer what is essentially no help (100 men is zero help when ten thousand were needed - but proves to extremist mentalities that the US responded).

There is no bitter rage here. You may think so because you don't like the facts. Clinton suffered same criticism when he bribed our local Congresswoman - MMM. But the devil gave us George Jr - benchmark for what is immoral.

richlevy wrote:

Isn't it much nicer when you try to help people who actually want the help and don't shoot at you?

They'll be shooting at us once the ammo dries out.

Troubleshooter wrote:

I'm curious. Is there an option to filter/block messages by something in their body, for instance the phrase "mental midget"?

It's easy to do. Prove it to be otherwise. It is not an insult. It is the mental attitude of the man. He is a genius at politics. But as a leader - classic mental midget. Again, don't complain. Instead put up facts. Prove that this man makes inspired, responsive, and intelligent decisions. Prove that he does not empty a room so that he can ask Cheney what to decide. Without proof to the contrary, he must be a mental midget. Genius at politics and other devious accomplishments. Always makes for a great party. Never once ran a successful company. Cannot even admit to making a single mistake. And must be told what to decide. But prove this wrong. Prove he is not a mental midget.

Actually, I'm having MUCH more fun watching you prove that you are TW....yes, yes indeed, MUCH more fun.

Good lord dude, you are a rabid bull dog on a slimy bone...give it up.

You're so far out of the box, you're knocking on it from the bottom.

Do you think, just by chance, that there is a slight chance that there was no IDEA of the amount of damage and destruction by day 1, and that things were going on behind the scenes to determine what needed to be done and how to do it?

Honestly, you want to know what I think? You hate Bush SO much, that you were going to latch on to the first thing you could to just parrot 'mental midget mental midget mental midget' so you could feel better about things. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

And I notice, that you still haven't answered the questions sent your way. Hiding the fact that you've not gotten off YOUR ass...what..21 days later and made a donation to the people who have died?

I do believe that would make YOU a hypocrite.

tw wrote:

It's easy to do. Prove it to be otherwise. It is not an insult. It is the mental attitude of the man. He is a genius at politics. But as a leader - classic mental midget. Again, don't complain. Instead put up facts. Prove that this man makes inspired, responsive, and intelligent decisions. Prove that he does not empty a room so that he can ask Cheney what to decide. Without proof to the contrary, he must be a mental midget. Genius at politics and other devious accomplishments. Always makes for a great party. Never once ran a successful company. Cannot even admit to making a single mistake. And must be told what to decide. But prove this wrong. Prove he is not a mental midget.

Give three independant (non mainstream press thank you) sources backing up that he DID....if you can't....perhaps you should rethink your position - there has been ample evidence that the press doesn't always tell the 'truth'.

Ask Dan Rather.

Undertoad wrote:

It turned out that most other Western leaders were off on vacation too, as was Annan (who REALLY didn't return for five days).

Even Kofi Anon returned on day four when the UN finally understood the scope of this disaster. The UN only knows as much as what the victim countries could tell it. However George Jr never ordered action until Thursday - and only after worldwide redicule. His day three aid was phone calls? In the meantime, what did the president of Sri Lanka ask for? They desperately needed information that the president had on Sunday. By Geroge Jr's own words

I just got off the phone with the President of Sri Lanka, she asked for help to assess the damage. In other words, not only did they want immediate help, but they wanted help to assess damage so that we can better direct resources.

A responsive George Jr with those satellite pictures would have been on the phone Sunday. It took him three days just to place a phone call? Three days later and he finally decided to call nations desperate to comprehend what had happened?

The Indonesian Interior Minister acknowledges how desperately they needed information that George Jr had. Minister describes the first days as denial followed by days of panic. They needed aid and they needed information - fast. George Jr had both but offered neither for how many days? He never even bothered to call until three days later? What kind of ally is that?

Dagney wrote:

Do you think, just by chance, that there is a slight chance that there was no IDEA of the amount of damage and destruction by day 1, and that things were going on behind the scenes to determine what needed to be done and how to do it?

You tell me what the president did for those first three days. You looked at the satellite photos that the president had on day one. You tell me that is was not a disaster on a massive scale. Even back then in the first days, we were talking about 17,000 dead with the number to exceed 40,000. That alone is enough to dispatch the USS Lincoln right then and there. You saw those satellite photos. Town was not just destroyed. Land beneath the town was removed. Anyone with those satellite photos - ie a mental midget president - knew this was a disaster of the decade. But George Jr could not even make a phone call to offer help for three days. It may have been worse. It may have been the disaster of generations.

But George Jr could not even make a phone call for three days - having this information. He did same with PDB warnings of the WTC attack. He sat on it - or better still - he never bothered to read it.

Why would you defend a man who caused the death of 98,000 Iraqis - who intentionally lied about WMD, undermined the Oslo Accords, almost got us into a war with China, and even tried to blame Saddam for the WTC attack. This is a moral man? Dan Rather is, in comparison, a saint.

You cannot prove George Jr is anything but a mental midget. That is your conclusion. Fine. We agree. The term mental midget is an accurate depiction.

Just curious. Can he spell potato?

tw wrote:

Even Kofi Anon returned on day four when the UN finally understood the scope of this disaster. The UN only knows as much as what the victim countries could tell it. However George Jr never ordered action until Thursday - and only after worldwide redicule. His day three aid was phone calls? In the meantime, what did the president of Sri Lanka ask for? They desperately needed information that the president had on Sunday. By Geroge Jr's own words A responsive George Jr with those satellite pictures would have been on the phone Sunday. It took him three days just to place a phone call? Three days later and he finally decided to call nations desperate to comprehend what had happened?

The Indonesian Interior Minister acknowledges how desperately they needed information that George Jr had. Minister describes the first days as denial followed by days of panic. They needed aid and they needed information - fast. George Jr had both but offered neither for how many days? He never even bothered to call until three days later? What kind of ally is that?

I'd really like to know how you know absolutely without a doubt, barring the mainstream press the President didn't do anything.

What papers do you read dude?

Wait, don't bother answering, I'm just going to let you stew in your own juices, because nothing anyone says is going to get past your ignorance.

I have heard that India turned down help from the US Military. They only want civilian aid. I can't verify it, though. :confused:

Dagney wrote:

I'd really like to know how you know absolutely without a doubt, barring the mainstream press the President didn't do anything.

What day did the military finally get its marching orders? Thursday. This from the White House. The Lincoln was on scene two days later. The Marines finally arrived today. Why? George Jr finally made a decision last Thursday. For five days, nothing was dispatched. Timeline provides damning facts - dude.

tw wrote:

It's easy to do. Prove it to be otherwise. It is not an insult. It is the mental attitude of the man. He is a genius at politics. But as a leader - classic mental midget. Again, don't complain. Instead put up facts. Prove that this man makes inspired, responsive, and intelligent decisions. Prove that he does not empty a room so that he can ask Cheney what to decide. Without proof to the contrary, he must be a mental midget. Genius at politics and other devious accomplishments. Always makes for a great party. Never once ran a successful company. Cannot even admit to making a single mistake. And must be told what to decide. But prove this wrong. Prove he is not a mental midget.

Just so we understand each other. I don't like Bush.

My question was more to the point of asking if there was some way to filter posts that have the phrase "mental midget" in them. There are times when you are able to make good posts, the only problem is that I'm tired of hearing that phrase.

tw wrote:

However George Jr never ordered action until Thursday - and only after worldwide redicule. His day three aid was phone calls?

My link showed you were mistaken, but I'm sure your opponents will call it dishonesty or incompetence.

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

I have heard that India turned down help from the US Military. They only want civilian aid. I can't verify it, though.

India has a very special and careful relationship with the indigenous people on the islands of Andaman and Nicobar. For some unknown reason, they are very careful to protect these people from outside influences much like the Galapagos Islands are also protected. Is this where India may be rejecting foreign aid? I don't know details other than India is careful to limit outside exposure of these people.

Troubleshooter wrote:

My question was more to the point of asking if there was some way to filter posts that have the phrase "mental midget" in them. There are times when you are able to make good posts, the only problem is that I'm tired of hearing that phrase.

I am tempted to call him the 'lovable' George Jr. A reference to hookers.

Undertoad wrote:

My link showed you were mistaken, but I'm sure your opponents will call it dishonesty or incompetence.

Please cite the quote? Yes he did offer some C-130s and some recon planes. Yes, he did offer $15million - which according to your citation was upped to $35 million on day three after the first wave of criticism. IOW that still constitutes a near zero response - similar to George Sr's response in the five days after Hurrican Andrew. FEMA will never make that mistake again. But again, if you see something different, then cite it. Where did he do anything more significant than a few phone calls on day three?

tw wrote:

What day did the military finally get its marching orders? Thursday. This from the White House. The Lincoln was on scene two days later. The Marines finally arrived today. Why? George Jr finally made a decision last Thursday. For five days, nothing was dispatched. Timeline provides damning facts - dude.

That's funny, there were troops en route Sunday, on the ground Monday.

And I'm not a dude. But try pulling yer head outcherass....'dude'.

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

I have heard that India turned down help from the US Military. They only want civilian aid. I can't verify it, though. :confused:

You're right Bruce...and until last week, they turned down ALL outside aid.

Certainly. Your exact quote was "George Jr sat on his righteous ass - did nothing - for 5 days as people were dying." My link was a press conference held on day three which showed that he had done something on day two... announcing the creation of the "regional core group" of the US, Australia, Japan and India for the mobilization, on the basis of diplomatic work done on day two. And all of that is less than four hours old and is present in this very thread.

So, why your inaccuracy?

Undertoad wrote:

Certainly. Your exact quote was "George Jr sat on his righteous ass - did nothing - for 5 days as people were dying." My link was a press conference held on day three which showed that he had done something on day two... announcing the creation of the "regional core group" of the US, Australia, Japan and India for the mobilization, on the basis of diplomatic work done on day two. And all of that is less than four hours old and is present in this very thread.

Action, my friend. Where is the action? When did he authorize any significant action? George Jr did not for five days.

In the meantime, that coalition which I understood to be Japan, Australia, the US, and China was later disbanded because the UN could do a better job. In the meantime, what action did that coalition accomplish? Action - like stock the USS Kitty Hawk with supplies and helicopters. Like dispatch C-17s with so many single pallets of emergency aid for remote villages? Where was the action for 5 days while people were dying? Action like in get satellite pictures to the Indonesian Interior minister. Like ask the president of Sri Lanka what she needs on day one and get it to her.

You cite a coalition that I understood broke up because it was unworkable. What action resulted from that coalition?

On the same day as that conference, the Pentagon rolled out the biggest military relief project in history. Why your inaccuracy?

In the meantime, here's what the Financial Times says about the UN's response.

The UN is being criticised for its failure to organise dozens of aid groups in and around Banda Aceh more than a week and a half after the tsunami hit the region, forcing some of them to bypass the international body and take action into their own hands to ensure aid reaches areas with the most urgent needs.

"If we wait for the UN to tell us what to do, we wouldn't do anything," said Abdul Hadi bin e Rashid, first admiral of the Malaysian navy at the country's operations tent at Banda Aceh airport.

"There are people who are hungry and angry. Why wait? So we just do it."

There's your "action" my friend.

Undertoad wrote:

There's your "action" my friend.

Where does it say anything about major US action on or before Thursday - five days after the Tsunami?

UN 'failing to co-ordinate relief efforts' on 7 Jan 2005.
The UN is being criticised for its failure to organise dozens of aid groups in and around Banda Aceh more than a week and a half after the tsunami hit the region...

The article also complains how aid was held up on Wednesday because Powell arrived for a visit. Nowhere does it say anything about the size of Pentagon aid let alone say when the Pentagon finally got started. Nowhere does it say "Pentagon rolled out the biggest military relief project in history".

It was a famous commerical - "Where's the Beef?" No significant action occurred for five days while George Jr thought about making a decision. Maybe he could not contact Cheney for five days?

The Pentagon probably has rolled its biggest relief project in history - after George Jr stopped stifling the Pentagon for five days. Aid that should have been flowing on Sunday could not move because a lovable George Jr took five days to make a decision. Does the name Dan Quayle sound familiar?

Dagney wrote:

That's funny, there were troops en route Sunday, on the ground Monday.

Care to first put some numbers to those troops? Where is this massive aid? What units? What troops? Where are the numbers? Good luck citing a major troop deployment for five days - dude.

This Telegraph article summarizes the tensions between the US and UN

Talking points on both sides in that article, but it's clear one side wants to act and one side wants to talk about acting. Guess which side is which.

At the same time, US officials were briefing journalists about the lack of a UN presence at the airport in Banda Aceh, the capital of the province.

"Look around and see who's present, and you will also see who's missing," said one. "I think you can read between the lines.

"They [the UN] have their compound in town, their cars, but are they getting food out? Are they setting up clinics?"

tw wrote:

Care to first put some numbers to those troops? Where is this massive aid? What units? What troops? Where are the numbers? Good luck citing a major troop deployment for five days - dude.

I don't recall stating massive...I said they were there...in response to your insistance that no one was there for 5 days.

Dude.

Until you respond and tell me what YOU personally have done, I'm just going to ignore your drivel for what it is.

He won't answer that. Nor will he answer if he has ever been part of a relief effort, wither in the air or on the ground co-ordinating. Nor will he answer why Lookout is somehow responsible for GWB's actions. (I still can't figure that one out.) Nor will he apologize for his libel.

Because if he did, it just might prove he's talking directly out of his ass.

That's pretty much what I figured, which is why I decided to just stop trying to be sensible.

Not enough hours in my day for the drama.

I think tw has a secret man-crush on W.

Ohhhh...so HE's the 'man-date' eh?

:love: :lol:

Dagney wrote:

Ohhhh...so HE's the 'man-date' eh?

Dagney wrote:

That's pretty much what I figured, which is why I decided to just stop trying to be sensible.

Where were you sensible on this issue? Where is serious aid to Boxer Day Tsunami victims by the US in those first five days? I have put up that challenge repeatedly. No one has yet cited a major American attempt to provide aid in those first five days. Nothing moved for five days - until George Jr finally decided - due to world wide condemnation - that a disaster had occurred.

Once George Jr made a decision, then massive aid started moving. It was always there waiting to be deployed. Within two days of being ordered into action, the USS Lincoln was on scene. Day after George Jr finally ordered a US government response, only then did a Marine reactionary force respond. On the day after George Jr finally made a decision, a convoy of ships with massive supplies left from Guam. These are all responses that sat stifled because the mental midget president could not make a decision.

That fact remains completely unchallenged by Dagney. Dagney, if you are going to make a logical post, you must challenge the timeline. Where is this massive US response to a disaster in the first five days? Tens of thousands of lives probably could have been saved it something had arrived in the first three days. What did George Jr do? As UT demonstrates - he finally got on the phone on day three. That is 'moral' leadership - to let victims die?

Please learn to post without your emotional outbursts. I can understand your problem. You have feelings that are not supported by any facts. Your only alternative is to attack the messenger. That does not make your case.

You want to prove me wrong? Then provide facts. Show me where the thousands of US Government employees were moving to save lived in the first five days of the disaster. Show me where this president demonstrated leadership for five days? You cannot. Was he waiting for Cheney to tell him what to do? It does explain five days of indecision.

OK, so he didn't seem to do a lot. Don't moan at us, go round to little George's house and punch his freakin' lights out. Even if you do manage to get everybody on here to admit he did bugger all for five days, what the hell is it going to change?

OnyxCougar wrote:

Because if he did, it just might prove he's talking directly out of his ass.

I will respond to intelligence. To points based upon the issue - which is the intelligence and morality of George Jr.

No I will not repond to Dagneys silly attempts to avoid the fact - to subvert the question. No sense making her look silly. She thinks this president demonstrated leadership? She thinks the world was wrong to redicule the US because the president made no decisions for five days as people died? She thinks that a paltry $15 million pledge says the US was going to respond? Then put up facts? All she had posted is her feelings. That is also called emotion. She provides no supporting facts so she must divert the issue and attack the messenger? Where are facts in that response?

This thread is chock full of insults because I am demanding facts and others have none in reply. The president is that immoral and lacks intelligent thought. Dagney's silly posts will be ignored so she can calm done. Then maybe she will realize how little intelligence this president really has. He sat for five days doing nothing as tens of thousands were dying. That is fact still unchallenged by anything Dagney has posted.

tw wrote:

This thread is chock full of insults because I am demanding facts and others have none in reply.

No, this thread is full of insults because we have had our fill of dead-horse carpaccio.

Please learn to post without your emotional outbursts.

...said the pot...

:lol:

part of the problem here is that all tw wants is for someone to stand with him and condemn GWB. Anyone who doesn't is obviously a fool or a zealot. it doesn't occur to tw that maybe some of us just don't really care whether it was the 1st,3rd, or 5th day that "massive" amounts of supplies moved. it isn't out of heartlessness or anything of the sort. it is out of simple realism. tens of thousands could have been saved? how? real evidence please, not some story about a boy who was on the verge of death before a doctor reached him. "tens of thousands" is great rhetoric, but is it reality? and this outrage over the "failure of a mental midget president" would be more convincing if we didn't all know that tw oozes venom at the mention of GWB.

i've been involved in relief efforts before. nothing of this scale of course, considering that we've never seen anything like this before, but relief efforts nonetheless. they aren't neat clean plans ready to be taken out of the box. the military and government agencies have thousands of plans that they prepare and exercise for, but those of us involved with them only laugh because we know when the proverbial fan gets to twirling, the plans will be scrapped. anyone who believes that when disaster strikes the pilots get strapped in and troops start loading up and are prepared to leave within hours, or even a day probably also believes in the toothfairy and OJ's innocence.

if you want to believe that bush and cheney were sitting around looking at satellite images laughing and playing poker, while BSing about the best way to hurt more people, you are delusional. i wasn't there, nor were you. but i would think that GWB, like all presidents, looked at the info, consulted his advisors about what should be done, looked at the feasibility of the options, picked his plans, and started the ball rolling.

but none of this is really the point. tw, maybe you don't realize, people are challenging your methods of discourse, more than your viewpoint.
you tell people that they shouldn't be emotional, yet you are the most angry, venomous person in the cellar.
you condemn people for not answering your questions, while never answering questions (related to the thread) that are asked of you.
you make accusations of someone's honesty and religious beliefs, but offer no proof.
you ridicule every course of action or decision made by the administration without offering any real alternatives.
you lift up globalism and the UN as the beacons of hope, yet make excuses when people question the motives and actions of the UN.

do you see a pattern? and don't come out blasting me for being a dishonest religious extremist, or a shiny shoe salesman because everyone has read those statements ad nauseum, without proof to support your claims. look around tw, it isn't just me that is arguing with you here. your arguments have become increasingly weak and venomous in the last six months. do you think that you have become so blinded by your hate for Bush that you are allowing emotion to spill into your arguments? have you taken notice that some of the people who are "foolish" enough to debate you also despise GWB?

the question here is, do you - tw - have the intellectual honesty to step back and admit to yourself: "while i despise George Walker Bush and think him a fool, not everything he does or says is wrong and worthy of condemnation."
Can you do it?

tw wrote:

Where were you sensible on this issue? Where is serious aid to Boxer Day Tsunami victims by the US in those first five days? I have put up that challenge repeatedly. No one has yet cited a major American attempt to provide aid in those first five days. Nothing moved for five days - until George Jr finally decided - due to world wide condemnation - that a disaster had occurred.

I have already challenged you to come up with sources that prove the timeline and chronological events from the time of tsunami to the phone calls of the leaders of the countries involved (or their embassies and ambassadors) to our government officials, requesting aid OR giving permission for our government aid to enter their soveriegn territory. You still haven't done it.

blah blah blah, mental midget, blah blah MBA blah blah blah

Dagney, if you are going to make a logical post, you must challenge the timeline.

I've challenged you to produce it.

bah blah blah mental midget, blah blah blah emotions are bad and immature, blah blah

You want to prove me wrong? Then provide facts. Show me where the thousands of US Government employees were moving to save lived in the first five days of the disaster.

Do you honestly think we keep ships loaded with food just sitting in harbors? Do you honestly think that it takes only a matter of minutes to load cargo planes and ships with food and supplies to assist in disaster situations of this magnitude? Do you honestly think that our military waited around for GWB to call THEN loaded ships up with food and medical supplies?? Those ships were loaded and ready to go when the call came in allowing them to leave. Wanna know how I know that? Because I have friends at Anderson on Guam who were directly involved with loading those ships up. Let me explain a little about what had to be done.

(1) They had to figure out what ships were in dock or in the immediate area that were suitable for the purpose at hand (IE cargo).
(2) They have to make sure personnel on the ships that will be chosen to go are properly immunized against a host of diseases not usually present in the Guam area, including one that occur frequently with high decomposing body counts.
(3) When the ships are chosen and personnel's health risk is minimized, you have to FLY IN the food and supplies required. I've been to Guam. That island is 5 miles long. There isn't alot of space to just have tons of food, water and supplies on the scale required to help these people. It takes 16 hours to get to Guam from Hawaii, then you have to offload those supplies onto the ship, make sure it's all counted and recounted, and then wait for the call to trickle down from the president to the chiefs, then the generals then the command.
(4) Please keep in mind that all ships travel in "battle groups". So take all that stuff I just said and multiply by about 10 ships, even if they are not carrying the cargo. Keep also in mind that southeast asia, worst hit by the wave is TEEMING with Al-Queda, so everything we send in there, from personnel to equipment has to be secure as possible at all times.

Show me where this president demonstrated leadership for five days? You cannot. Was he waiting for Cheney to tell him what to do? It does explain five days of indecision.

Or maybe you have no idea how the infrastructure of the military works, you've NEVER been on a relief operation, and you're talking out your ass. Again.

Roosta wrote:

Even if you do manage to get everybody on here to admit he did bugger all for five days, what the hell is it going to change?

I ask you the same thing then. What have you accomplished in your question? Why then did you bother to post - to vent your emotions? Or to learn something new?

Actually I have learned what I feared was true. I don't care if others disagree. We went through the exact same process when I was bluntly questioning the WMDs and claims that Saddam had participated in the 11 September attacks. Do you remember those posts? They too made no effort to be politically correct if it meant misrepresenting the facts. I insulted no one. Insulted were concepts or opinons that were flawed. Only those who cannot separate concepts from their own being would be insulted.

Strongly questioned were popular myths promoted by what we now know was a lying president. I was not popular for posting what we now know to be the truth - and did not care. But many should have been asking themselves whether they make decisions based upon emotion or based upon logic. The aluminum tubes being a classic example of too many who failed to conclude logically. Who blindly believed what the Limbaughs were saying.

You tell me. Facts were posted bluntly back then that were proven true. Being posted so bluntly, then many immediately disagreed. Facts proved to be wildly unpopular then (due to emotion) and yet so accurate today. I am posting facts again in that 'I don't care what your emotions are' attitude. You tell me where replies provide contrary facts. Where are the facts in posts from Dagney?

BTW, as I so often say - I will not make any effort to post politely, be politically correct, or try to 'win friends' - when such posts cannot be honest. Being honest is far more important. I resent polite conversation when it will not address problems head on. Those that others find too aggressive or insulting are the same I find most interesting - because they are being honest. I also will post bluntly. Either you have an emotional response and disagree OR you will recognize the difference between your emotional response and the facts.

Which is it. I have intentionally posted bluntly with no regard to nonsensical political correctness. Which one are you: a question to every reader? Are you one who can see the facts, OR are you one who maintains an emotional attitude (as Dagney demonstrated)?

Having asked that question, then you tell me what I have accomplished. Only the silly would say I pissed off others. Their emotions are completely irrelevant. Intelligent people don't let emotional responses make their conclusions. Intelligent people ask how immoral America was for five days after Boxing Day. The reader must ask himself whether he responds emotionally or whether he can see the facts through an emotional response.

Bottom line fact remains. George Jr again demonstrated his presidential abilities and why religious extremists are so dangerous. He did nothing for five days as tens of thousands lay dying. You tell me where anyone could call that moral. He sat on his ass while thousands of better Americans in the region could do nothing - waiting for orders.

Beestie wrote:

No, this thread is full of insults because we have had our fill of dead-horse carpaccio.

Then don't read it. I don't care if you don't like me. The fact remains - George Jr did nothing for five days. Those are facts demonstrated by the money he pledged AND the actions of US government employees. For five days, virtually nothing moved. The most important aid is required in the first three. Where was the American resonse? Sitting in Crawford TX. Those are facts. They are blunt. They remain unchallenged.

OnyxCougar wrote:

I have already challenged you to come up with sources that prove the timeline and chronological events from the time of tsunami to the phone calls of the leaders of the countries involved (or their embassies and ambassadors) to our government officials, requesting aid OR giving permission for our government aid to enter their soveriegn territory. You still haven't done it.

UT even provided same in a phone call on day three to the president of Sri Lanka. What did she deperately request? Aid and information. We had both. For two more days after that Sri Lanka request, the president still did nothing. Nothing started moving until he called for a world wide response on day five. On day five, the USS Lincoln started moving to provide assistance. On day first, Marine expeditionary force started moving south. On day five, ships finally started loading in Guam. That is the timeline that was posted previously. Do you still deny those facts?

Within two day of getting orders, the USS Lincoln was providing help. Where was the Lincoln for most of that week? Waiting for orders. Orders from the 'so decisive' George Jr. Those are the facts.

OnyxCougar wrote:

Do you honestly think we keep ships loaded with food just sitting in harbors? Do you honestly think that it takes only a matter of minutes to load cargo planes and ships with food and supplies to assist in disaster situations of this magnitude? Do you honestly think that our military waited around for GWB to call THEN loaded ships up with food and medical supplies??

Yes we have ships at ports ready to deploy within days. The newer designed fast deployment ships (which apparently were not in Guam) can be completely loaded an moving in less than one day. That is the capacity that the military has developed. A massive surge that required presidental order to expedite.

Within days, ships can be loaded and moving from Guam. Not all of them. But to have the first ships moving by Saturday, orders were required on Thursday. Guess what. Thursday is when the president finally decided to act upon Tuesday requests even from the president of Sri Lanka. She asked for aid and information on Tuesday. George Jr finally got to making a decision on Thursday. The ships from Guam were moving by Saturday. The USS Lincoln was on scene and working within two day of the president making a decision.

It took him five days to make a decision. It takes but a few days for the military to put that decision into action. The military is that good. You should have more respect for the abilities of our service people. They train to do these things that quickly - especially when the list of supplies is mostly same for a natural disaster first response. All they needed was a president to make a decision. They waited five days.

tw wrote:

UT even provided same in a phone call on day three to the president of Sri Lanka. What did she deperately request? Aid and information. We had both. For two more days after that Sri Lanka request, the president still did nothing. Nothing started moving until he called for a world wide response on day five. On day five, the USS Lincoln started moving to provide assistance. On day first, Marine expeditionary force started moving south. On day five, ships finally started loading in Guam. That is the timeline that was posted previously. Do you still deny those facts?

Within two day of getting orders, the USS Lincoln was providing help. Where was the Lincoln for most of that week? Waiting for orders. Orders from the 'so decisive' George Jr. Those are the facts.

OK, so day three, Sri Lanka finally asked for assistance. Within two days of getting orders, the Lincoln was on the move, which was day five.

That is a paraphrase of what you just posted.

So why not rail against Sri Lanka for waiting for three days before calling?? We had aid there in TWO days of the request. If Sri Lanka had called day one, then we would have been there two days earlier.

Blame the president of Sri Lanka for waiting.




edit: in the following post, your days change. Please corroborrate (sp) the two timelines.

OnyxCougar wrote:

OK, so day three, Sri Lanka finally asked for assistance. Within two days of getting orders, the Lincoln was on the move, which was day five.

That is a paraphrase of what you just posted.

So why not rail against Sri Lanka for waiting for three days before calling?? We had aid there in TWO days of the request. If Sri Lanka had called day one, then we would have been there two days earlier.

Blame the president of Sri Lanka for waiting.

You still have it wrong. Sri Lanka publically requested aid on day one. Sri Lanka got a phone call (finally) from George Jr on day three. She asked for immediate aid and information. For two days, George Jr did nothing. Finally on day five, he acknowledged the disaster and dispatched military. On day seven, the USS Lincoln was on scene providing assistance (and not in Sri Lanka). That is four days too late for so many victims. Compare that to five days it took George Jr to make a decision

The first three days are critical. Made even worse for the Box Day victim nations because local governments could not get information. Again, you saw those satellite photos. Information we had on day one and information that people (such as the Indonesian Interior minister) desperately needed on day one. George Jr sat for five days before he finally made a decision to be helpful.

Now maybe he did provide information to Sri Lanka on day three. But clearly, George Jr took two more days to decide to send aid. His decision was clearly expressed in a sharply changed attitude in a press conference on day five. Numbers demonstrate how long it took George Jr to make a decision. It even took him three days to decide to make phone calls. Embarrassing is the politically correct response. Immoral is the honest answer.

tw wrote:

You still have it wrong. Sri Lanka publically requested aid on day one. Sri Lanka got a phone call (finally) from George Jr on day three. She asked for immediate aid and information. For two days, George Jr did nothing. Finally on day five, he acknowledged the disaster and dispatched military. On day seven, the USS Lincoln was on scene providing assistance (and not in Sri Lanka). That is four days too late for so many victims. Compare that to five days it took George Jr to make a decision

The first three days are critical. Made even worse for the Box Day victim nations because local governments could not get information. Again, you saw those satellite photos. Information we had on day one and information that people (such as the Indonesian Interior minister) desperately needed on day one. George Jr sat for five days before he finally made a decision to be helpful.

Now maybe he did provide information to Sri Lanka on day three. But clearly, George Jr took two more days to decide to send aid. His decision was clearly expressed in a sharply changed attitude in a press conference on day five. Numbers demonstrate how long it took George Jr to make a decision. It even took him three days to decide to make phone calls. Embarrassing is the politically correct response. Immoral is the honest answer.

This is from about.com:

The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) is the lead agency for distribution of disaster relief funds to foreign countries. Originally created after World War II to aid in the Marshall Plan reconstruction of Europe, USAID took its modern form in 1961, when President John F. Kennedy signed the Foreign Assistance Act into law.

Since that time, USAID, an independent federal government agency, has been the principal U.S. agency to extend assistance to countries recovering from disaster, trying to escape poverty, and engaging in democratic reforms.

With headquarters in Washington, D.C. and field offices worldwide, USAID works in partnership with private voluntary organizations, indigenous organizations, universities, American businesses, international agencies, other governments, and other U.S. government agencies.
Aid available through USAID is taxpayer-funded as authorized annually by Congress through the federal budget process. Persons interested in USAID's approved FY 2005 budget and a history of funds distributed to various countries should see the following Websites:


USAID FY 2005 Congressional Budget Justification

U.S. Overseas Loans and Grants

Maybe it's not the president's job to call the chiefs and say "go to sri lanka". Maybe its USAID's job to give BUDGETED amounts to the people who need it, and maybe the president had to go through congress to get the EXTRA money. What's the opposite of pro-gress?

OnyxCougar wrote:

Maybe it's not the president's job to call the chiefs and say "go to sri lanka". Maybe its USAID's job to give BUDGETED amounts to the people who need it, and maybe the president had to go through congress to get the EXTRA money. What's the opposite of pro-gress?

And that would be more interesting facts. But the one organization with tens of thousands of people in the region was the US military. The largest organization that also could have responded within three days instead did not. To execute the fast reaction for humanitarian aid - to load cargo ships in but days and dispatch them - to redirect a marine expeditionary force - to redirect a carrier task force - all required direct orders from the president. None came for five days.

This is something that other organizations such as the UN still do not have. The UN took a shocking lessson when NATO in mid 1990 demonstrated how an organization must be structured to respond immediately. Apparently the UN never developed such abilities. This and other criticisms of the UN may be forthcoming. But western nations have structures to make such fast responses. The US military had the largest in the region available to deploy on day one.

I don't believe USAID has such abilities. They certainly don't have the resources to act on the scope and size in the Indian Ocean. Needed most was aid in the first three days. That also requires presidential decision. It keeps coming back to one bottleneck. The president did not make a decision for five days. Unacceptable and immoral. It took world wide public humiliation before this president could make a decision.

Another number that demonstrates when this president finally made a decision? He upped the paltry $35 million to $350 million. That was when he finally decided a disaster had occurred. He could have pledged $5billion without any approval of Congress. Money also demonstrates when he finally made a decision.

tw wrote:

Then don't read it. I don't care if you don't like me. The fact remains - George Jr did nothing for five days.

I don't have anything against you personally although I do think you drone on and on and on and on and on and on and on about the same thing as though the rest of the Cellar had some obligation to respond to your allegations against W or defend him in some way.

You made your point: W took 5 days. For all I know it took 5 days for other world leaders to respond also. For all I know W thinks they deserved the tsunami and it is God's will that they starve. I don't know. For all I know W could feed every man, woman and child on planet earth forever and you'd still hate his guts. Whatever. But, you don't need to keep making the same point over and over and over and over and over in the same and multiple threads as though there is still some remote corner of cyberspace that doesn't know how you feel about W. Newsflash: there ain't.

We get your freakin' point already. Do you get mine or do I need to post it 18 times a day in 7 different threads for two weeks?

Beestie wrote:

We get your freakin' point already. Do you get mine or do I need to post it 18 times a day in 7 different threads for two weeks?

Not according to Dagney, Onyxcougar, or Lookout123. They say otherwise. This decision to let thousands die after the disaster should not be taken lightly. The number of posts and the post from so many who 'say it ain't so' demonstrate the divide created by George Jr. We have here a prefect example of one so immoral as to do nothing. And yet people like Lookout123 would call him a moral man. George Jr will not even aplogize for doing nothing - a prediction based upon his previous fubars. IOW he is the problem. Tens of thousands died unnecessarily.

I know you will never forget that was said. Good. Because this is what morality is really about.

tw wrote:

Not according to Dagney, Onyxcougar, or Lookout123. They say otherwise. This decision to let thousands die after the disaster should not be taken lightly. The number of posts and the post from so many who 'say it ain't so' demonstrate the divide created by George Jr. We have here a prefect example of one so immoral as to do nothing. And yet people like Lookout123 would call him a moral man. George Jr will not even aplogize for doing nothing - a prediction based upon his previous fubars. IOW he is the problem. Tens of thousands died unnecessarily.

I know you will never forget that was said. Good. Because this is what morality is really about.

I have never said otherwise. There you go, being libelous again.

And because you are libelous with just what I have said, what lookout has said, and what Dagney has said, how can I trust any of your other facts??

It comes down to integrity. And it's obvious by your libelous remarks you don't have it, or you will trade it for another dig at Dubya.

You still haven't replied to numerous questions that lookout has asked, you still haven't replied to things I've asked.

TW. No integrity.

TW. Please tell us more. What happened? How many days did the President wait? What type of planes did he send? How much did he donate? Which countries beat him to it? If only we had all the facts....... if only......

Wind your neck in. We can't help what he did.

tw wrote:

And yet people like Lookout123 would call him a moral man.

cite? or was that your snappy come back so i'll forget that i asked you some questions?

George Jr will not even aplogize for doing nothing - a prediction based upon his previous fubars.

i dont' think that is a proper use of fubar. let's see how it looks... a prediction based upon his previous fucked up beyond all recognitions. nope. i don't think that was proper at all.

TW, until you give me a response to my previous questions, I'm going to continue to consider you as I do....an ass.....

Yes, i KNOW you have repeatedly stated that the President didn't do anything until day 5. Fine, you said it multiple times, therefore you MUST be right, oh high and mighty TW.

We're now 3+ weeks past the event.

What have YOU done?

Oh, and whining about what George Bush did - doesn't count.

Seems to me this thread has gone full circle around to the original first post by BusterB...

busterb wrote:

TW. How about give us a break? I would love to pee on GWB, but hell Posting the almost same shit in so may threads sucks...

What does TW stand for, Time Waster? Too Wordy?