God and Devil
The pain and suffering which world endures can only exist in retaliation to something excessively good and pure. We feel the pain because we know state of no pain. First we are given gospel of truth and then thrown into lies. who attested those truths? Is he who opposes god a devil? Then he opposes no more than what god tells us to oppose, evil. God and devil are no different but mere conception of human mind. Both are same. Nothing has hurt mankind more than its god. He who is born out of ashes can rise no above.
I think mankind and it's interpretation of God, their gospels of truth, etc. hurts mankind more than God does.
God and devil are no different but mere conception of human mind. Both are same. Nothing has hurt mankind more than its god. He who is born out of ashes can rise no above.
Seriously, philosophy is dead.
What is this crap.
BE MORE COHERENT
Funny, I was thinking that this was one of mystic's better posts. He uses punctuation, upper and lower case letters, and makes some interesting philosophical points.
Okay, okay...I'm Mystic Rythm. Sorry to put you all through this...carry on.
You filthy, unwashed, stinky liar!
Look man, it's only been 3 days since my last shower.
Okay, okay...I'm Mystic Rythm. Sorry to put you all through this...carry on.
[SIZE=7]Banned![/SIZE]
I will then come back as BannedSycamore, call you all a bunch of fucking idiots™ and photoshop something mean-spirited involving you.
I think that everything has an opposite.
Therefore if there is a God that represents love, creation, truth, compassion and justice, there is an opposite force (a "devil") that represents hate, destruction, lies, indifference and injustice.
In the Christian mindset, the devil is not as powerful as God, because Lucifer was once an angel, created by God. This means that ultimately, Good will triumph over Evil, as good is (in the long run) more powerful than evil. This is then further ensured by Jesus' sacrifice and ascension, enabling him to come back to earth and meet Lucifer face to face, and subduing him.
Other pantheons have similar concepts in different forms, but the idea in most is centered on good vs. evil. If you do good, you will advance, be rewarded. If you do evil, you will not advance, be punished.
It is the timeless struggle.
I think that everything has an opposite.
Therefore if there is a God that represents love, creation, truth, compassion and justice, there is an opposite force (a "devil") that represents hate, destruction, lies, indifference and injustice..
IIRC, this argument is an official Catholic heresy. Watch out for Spaniards with lighted brands.
... the devil is not as powerful as God, because Lucifer was once an angel, created by God.
You know how sometimes you get a thought so uncomfortable you banish it before it has a chance to root.
I just wondered the opposite of your point.
I think I will choose to banish that opposite thought.
Okay, okay...I'm Mystic Rythm. Sorry to put you all through this...carry on.
Better resonate one's own personality: good or bad, weak or strong!
Better resonate one's own personality: good or bad, weak or strong!
What the hell does that
mean?I knew sycamore was just joshin'! There's no way he could be that incoherent.
I've seen the man drunk.
He just can't do it.
The devil is Ned Flanders....
Let us confess it: evil strides the world." Voltaire
"The world has always been ruled by Lucifer. The world is evil call his name, my love. Call the name of lucifer." Ritual of Evil"
If religion is a delusion due to wishes (Freud) Or bad society(marx) can't the same be said for atheism"?
Some may say the symbolism of christianity is a wonderful thing. However, trying to make it a philosophical system seems to me absurd.
I know this is off the subject, but I like the word resident denizin. The definition of a denizon and I am paraprasing; is one who inhabits a certain location. Therfore, I am a denizon of the philosophy site, not only for the occasionally intellectual converasations but also because I find more humor and arrogance than on any other site.
You probably mean denizen. I think 'converasations' is actually a pretty creative variation. I think I have done this before when I was choosing between two words and ended up combining them.
People sometimes say they can't believe in God because the world is so full of suffering. But I have found that people who say that are rarely involved in stopping the world's suffering. And the people who are involved in healing the world's suffering rarely talk like that. When your life revolves around yourself, the world is a cold, sterile, and unfriendly place. When your life revolves around giving to others, you feel how wonderful it is to be alive.
.
What a load of crap.
Seconded
It's great that you think it's a load of crap.
Mind saying WHY you think it's a load of crap?
Or try this: remove the phrase "they can't believe in God because" and re-read it. I don't think it's crap.
When your life revolves around yourself, the world is a cold, sterile, and unfriendly place.
What a load of crap.
Seconded
3rd
[/irony]
It's not so much a load of crap as it is meaningless.
People sometimes say they can't believe in God because the world is so full of suffering. But I have found that people who say that are rarely involved in stopping the world's suffering.
People in general, atheist or no, are rarely involved in stopping the world's suffering.
And the people who are involved in healing the world's suffering rarely talk like that.
People in general, world-suffering-healers or no, rarely talk like that. Most people are religious in some form or another.
When your life revolves around yourself, the world is a cold, sterile, and unfriendly place. When your life revolves around giving to others, you feel how wonderful it is to be alive.
The only way the concluding sentences can be tied to the first two parts is to associate self involvement with atheism, and feeling wonderful to being religious, which look more like the opinion of an unimaginative religious person than a meaningful statement.
Actually, in my discussions with people who don't believe in God, say one of the reasons is that "There is so much death and suffering in the world, how could a loving God allow that?"
Many of those people do nothing to help the people in the world (or even their own community) that are homeless, starving, need clothes or even a kind word. Why?
Because if there is no God, then we're all here by random chance, decended from animals, nothing more than a higher functioning ape. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, only the strong survive. There are haves and have-nots. If you have not, and can't get, then you die. End of problem.
What do you call two non sequitors in a row?
The "haves vs have-nots" view of the world is a completely different axis to the religious/nonreligious view. If you don't want to help less fortunate people, and you're religious, you just say that the way things are is the will of God. If you don't want to help less fortunate people, and you're not religious, you just make that social darwinism argument (Or, in either case, you can just admit you're selfish and/or lazy). If you're generous, you can either say that you are carrying out the will of God, or that you have empathy.
The view that the only reason to help the less fortunate is because God says so is a very simplistic ethical system. Your characterization of nonreligious people wanting to let the weak die to increase the strength of the species is one of the confusions you are succeptible to when you equate evolution with religion. Evolution is something that happens, not something to worship.
The "haves vs have-nots" view of the world is a completely different axis to the religious/nonreligious view. If you don't want to help less fortunate people, and you're religious, you just say that the way things are is the will of God. If you don't want to help less fortunate people, and you're not religious, you just make that social darwinism argument (Or, in either case, you can just admit you're selfish and/or lazy). If you're generous, you can either say that you are carrying out the will of God, or that you have empathy.
The view that the only reason to help the less fortunate is because God says so is a very simplistic ethical system. Your characterization of nonreligious people wanting to let the weak die to increase the strength of the species is one of the confusions you are succeptible to when you equate evolution with religion. Evolution is something that happens, not something to worship.
But that's not what the quote was about.
The quote was about people, in their argument against believing in God, say they don't believe in him because there is suffering in the world.
Those same people (the majority of them) do NOT help the suffering.
I would say many people of faith (whatever faith it is, usually) do help suffering people more than atheists or humanists. Whether they do it because God said so or becaue they are good people is open to debate.
But the fact remains that more often, the people who help people in need are people of faith.
Of course, people can always make up excuses not to help people, (or simply say "I don't want to help people"). So I do see your point that not all religious people help, and not all atheists or agnostics don't help. But I would say generally, it's rare that people who do help suffering people complain that they don't believe in God because people are suffering.
It's a load of crap because it buys into that strange phenomenon I've noticed a few times, the notion that Christianity has some kind of monopoly (patent pending!) on morals and ideals that happen to be contained in Christian teachings. HM is dead on.
But the fact remains that more often, the people who help people in need are people of faith.
No. It doesn't remain. It never was, it's a figment of your fucking worldview without the slimmest shred of evidence or logic behind it. In fact, it's a big fucking insult to a lot of very hard working, dedicated people that don't feel that they need some deity looking over their shoulder to make some serious sacrifices for the good of others.
I've seen plenty of self-proclaimed Christians who do nothing to help the less fortunate. Most people do fuck all to help others, irrespective of religion. I've also met both religious and non-religious people that do dedicate their lives to helping others. Religion really has little or nothing to do with it. Except that most if not all Christian aid 'charities' make sure that that daily bread only comes after your prayers whereas others are more worried about helping than indoctrinating desperate, deeply vunerable people with their agenda.
And What I was saying is that there is no reason to believe that. The majority of ALL people don't help the suffering. You have nothing more than your general feeling to justify your claim that the rate is different based on faith.
But the fact remains that more often, the people who help people in need are people of faith.
And the fact also remains that more often, the people who DON'T help people in need are people of faith - there are just more people of faith.
I don't think morals and beliefs like "Do unto others" is only able to be practiced by Christians.
I don't have any figures, but I don't know any people who are Christian that think that way.
Now there is an argument that can be made about western culture and the notion of right and wrong and western morals being heavily influenced by Christian thought, especially the United States, which began as a fundamentalist Christian society. But that's another thread... :)
there are just more people of faith.
And why do you think that is?
In fact, it's a big fucking insult to a lot of very hard working, dedicated people that don't feel that they need some deity looking over their shoulder to make some serious sacrifices for the good of others.
Woah!
I never said that only people who help people have a particular faith, or believe in a diety. In fact, I said the opposite.
So I do see your point that not all religious people help, and not all atheists or agnostics don't help. But I would say generally, it's rare that people who do help suffering people complain that they don't believe in God because people are suffering.
Calm down, Jag.
In my opinion? Most people are raised religious, and feel no need to upset the boat.
No. That's the point. You don't have any figures. You're making up stuff that fits your very specific worldview. Period. There is absolutely zero evidence that people of faith help other people more or less than atheists. Nada. Null. Zip. Zero. That's the point. I don't think it's rare at all, most of the people I know that have done work in some truly horrible hellholes are very certain that god clearly has taken one serious hiatus or must utterly love suffering.
And why do you think that is?
I'll post your a friend's anthropology dissertation if you want. People used to think storms were when the gods were angry too. Religion evaporates as society progresses.
Religion evaporates as society progresses.
I would say that ignorance evaporates as society progresses. Ignorance being that which can be disproven. And I think most would agree that disentangling ignorance from religion can only be good.
I'll disagree in advance with any assertion (not aimed at any single poster) that religion = ignorance.
Religion is a symptom of ignorance*.
*It's a symptom of schizophrenia as well, but we'll save that one for another thread.
ok, TS - that sounds very pseudo-intellectual. let me make sure i understand the logic trail here. you find no value in faith because it has never been made clear to you. i'm ok with that so far. but then you make the leap that only the ignorant can have a religious faith? tell me how this works.
Religion in the context I stated is simply a psychological structure (ideology) upon which inexplicable events are given rationale.
The issue I was not addressing:
Faith is the belief that something will, or will not, has or has not occured because of a given (revelatory) premise.
I would say that ignorance evaporates as society progresses. Ignorance being that which can be disproven. And I think most would agree that disentangling ignorance from religion can only be good.
I'll disagree in advance with any assertion (not aimed at any single poster) that religion = ignorance.
You're right. I can't quite articulate it correctly, that brush was a little too broad.
I would say ignorant people are more likely to be religious but that doesn't mean religious people are ignorant.
However on a broader sociological scale religion is on the decline and has been as science and technology have progressed. The only places religion seems to be growing are either stagnant or going backwards. Before you denounce me, show me a vibrant, forward looking economically growing society that is becoming *more* religious.
"About 33% of the world's population regard themselves as Christian. This percentage has been stable for decades. (The second most popular religion is Islam at about 20%. It is growing. If its present growth rate continues, it will to become the dominant religion of the world during in a few decades.) About 75% of American adults and a similar number of Canadians identify themselves as Christian. This number has recently been dropping about one percentage point per year."
From Ontario Consultants for Religious Tolerance
In the US, from 1978-1997, the seven of the biggest non-fundamentalist churches lost 7 million members, in comparison with the US's population rise of 60 million.
Not entirely sure about these statistics, but it does show a growing trend.
Religion is a symptom of ignorance*.
Boy, [size=-1]Confucius [/size]better keep his day job.
Oh, and thanks for bolding the important part. I was really scratchin' my head till I saw the bold part.
Religion is a symptom of ignorance*.
oh please.
Faith is the belief that something will, or will not, has or has not occured because of a given (revelatory) premise.
Such as evolutionistic origins?
Such as evolutionistic origins?
A swing and a miss...
1) I don't believe that there is enough information to point to what, if any, evolutionistic origins that you so demonize exist,
2) I specified revelatory information, not derived or theoretical.
and look at the places Islam is on the rise......I rest my case.
No, evolution is based on deriving a theory from evidence using scientific method.
Boy, [size=-1]Confucius [/size]better keep his day job.
Oh, and thanks for bolding the important part. I was really scratchin' my head till I saw the bold part.
I'm sensing sarcasm may be near, I better be wary...
OC & pro-religionists:
There is a very simple way to explain the conclusion that religion = load of crap.
There is more than one religion. (Bold, underline, highlight, etc.)
If there is more than one religion, how can any one be right? Clearly we have just created stories to help us make sense of the world, and I'm not saying this is wrong - it is much more pleasant than facing the realities of life. Still, the truth will out, and when something terrible happens to you, you will doubt your mischievous god. Either that or you will blame yourself, think it happened to 'teach you' something and throw yourself deeper into an ignorant faith that prevents you from seeing the real cause of your distress.
I hope I made that clear. We are all the same, us people. One species. No emotional, fear-led story can detract from that.
If there is more than one religion, how can any one be right?
Easily, by the rest being wrong.
Look, we keep going in circles on this. I believe what I believe because of my experiences, not because I am delusional. I asked, God answered, I believe. Atheists don't ask, don't want to believe, wouldn't believe even if they had irrefutable evidence. Why? Because they hate the
idea of God. If God exists, that means there is someone out there more important than them, which utterly demolishes their worldview. Satan pees his pants laughing every time an atheist utters their "free thought" nonsense.
We're all the same, Christian, atheist, Buddhist. Believing in Christ doesn't make me better than TS, DanaC, Catwoman or anyone else. In fact, they and any other number of people are probably better than me in most if not all ways. But I recognize my sin, realize who it's offending, and ask forgiveness from him. How is that "throwing myself deeper into an ignorant faith that prevents me from seeing the real cause of my distress?" The cause of my distress is sin - you can't get any simpler or more fundamental than that.
This business of being a Christian to keep from going to our imaginary hell.....stow it. I will save us all alot more rambling posts by saying this once - believing in Christ is what gives me peace and eliminates my fear. The difference between you and me is, I admit I *have* fear, that I don't have all the answers and need help from God.
:P on a short fuse this a.m...spent all last night dreaming that I was running back and forth from the airport terminal to the parking garage. I kept forgetting stuff. Never did get on the plane.
Easily, by the rest being wrong.
Completely circular but correct on so many levels.
Look, we keep going in circles on this. I believe what I believe because of my experiences, not because I am delusional. I asked, God answered, I believe.
The only problem with that is deciding how to differentiate an unsubstantiated aural hallucination from the Voice of God(tm).
Atheists don't ask, don't want to believe, wouldn't believe even if they had irrefutable evidence. Why? Because they hate the idea of God. If God exists, that means there is someone out there more important than them, which utterly demolishes their worldview. Satan pees his pants laughing every time an atheist utters their "free thought" nonsense.
That's a rather cavalier handling of someone's opinion on deity and personal worth don't you think?
This business of being a Christian to keep from going to our imaginary hell.....stow it. I will save us all alot more rambling posts by saying this once - believing in Christ is what gives me peace and eliminates my fear. The difference between you and me is, I admit I *have* fear, that I don't have all the answers and need help from God.
So what you're saying is that the only reason you believe in Jesus is because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside?
:P on a short fuse this a.m...spent all last night dreaming that I was running back and forth from the airport terminal to the parking garage. I kept forgetting stuff. Never did get on the plane.
Anybody want to start a thread where everybody tells about their running dream?
That's a rather cavalier handling of someone's opinion on deity and personal worth don't you think?
Maybe. As cavalier as "pfft. Anyone who believes in something that I haven't personally experienced is 'ignorant'"
So what you're saying is that the only reason you believe in Jesus is because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside?
I rarely, if ever, feel warm and fuzzy. You'll have to reread what I've said about
why I believe, but what I get out of it is peace in the face of hard times. When something happens that I have no control over, I don't ask big bubba Jesus to come in and kick ass for me, I ask for the wisdom to react correctly and the peace to get me through it in as good a shape as possible.
The only problem with that is deciding how to differentiate an unsubstantiated aural hallucination from the Voice of God(tm).
I've never heard the Voice(tm). I've been strongly led by conscience to do certain things, even when they seem illogical at the time. That 'conscience' is what I believe to be the holy spirit. It's different than the normal conscience we think of that tells us "you shouldn't run that stop sign, that's against the law." It's more along the line of intuition, but with a deeper subtext - this so-called voice never tells you to do anything that's against the word of God, and your immediate instinct is to ignore it, because it almost always requires you to do something that you selfishly don't want to do.
It has nothing to do with self-validation or comfort, everything to do with doing what God wants. When a Christian does what God wants, they get peace. It's a good trade.
This business of being a Christian to keep from going to our imaginary hell.....stow it. I will save us all alot more rambling posts by saying this once - believing in Christ is what gives me peace and eliminates my fear. The difference between you and me is, I admit I *have* fear, that I don't have all the answers and need help
You will note that I have omitted 'from God' from your quote, Mr Noodle. Because until you said that, you were bang on.
People are afraid. That's why they have religion and relationships and children and war and suicide, etc etc etc. First step is to acknowledge the fear, which you have done. Second step is to accept it and go a little deeper into it. Almost no one gets to this stage (it's too scary). Third step is to realise it's empty - there's nothing here, which is very hard to accept. Final step is to accept there is nothing. THEN you can start to enjoy your life, and not be afraid.
Religion etc. fills the gap because it is a distraction, but it's not actually addressing your fear (if your fear was truly elimintated, you wouldn't need your religion).
You don't need help from 'god' or anyone else. You have all the answers already. The voices you hear are your own.
TS has adressed all my other points.
and still we argue the unproveable.
cat - do you realise that your scenario could be just as much an invention of a mind that doesn't want to believe a higher power than themselves exists?
that is not very different than what you are sure those with faith do - pick an ending (there is a higher power) and then choose or create a scenario to reach that conclusion.
you can't prove yours, noodle can't prove his.
one thing i notice *zips up flame retardent suit* those who are sure religion is for the birds are generally more insulting in explaining their logic than those who believe in God. to me it seems that Mrnoodle should be more emotionally entangled in his defense - he has his eternal soul on the block, after all. you and TS have absolutely nothing at risk if you are right, so why do you care so much if someone believes otherwise?
Yes, yes, but I'm talking about a real relationship with a real being whom I have experienced not physically or emotionally, but spiritually. This is the disconnect for us. You deny the existence of something that I utterly know to be real. I vouch for something that you have absolutely no grounds for belief in.
Therefore you see that the notion that "religion fills the gap because it's a distraction...the voices you hear are your own" has no reality for me, because I know it to be patently false. I don't wish it were false, I don't think it's false, I know it. Of course, you can say that's just a sign of how deeply deluded I am, but consider this: the only argument you have to offer is *lack* of experience. Atheists have an easy time of it in these arguments - they don't have to defend anything, they just have to poke and prod. "Show me" doesn't work unless you're willing to see.
Atheists don't ask, don't want to believe, wouldn't believe even if they had irrefutable evidence. Why? Because they hate the idea of God. If God exists, that means there is someone out there more important than them, which utterly demolishes their worldview.
I don't hate the idea of God, I just find it somewhat silly. On the other hand I know that there are many people out there who need no magic to be more important than me.
that's a start :thumbsup:
Everyone has a godform ... science, logic, reason, God, Cernnunos, Hecate, Shekinah, Allah, Buddha, the Infinite ...
You have to make the definition of "godform" pretty vague to include all of that...
if god is something that we worship, then wolf is right. we all worship something, even if it is subconsciously.
self, money, fame, little green men from outer space.
You have to make the definition of "godform" pretty vague to include all of that...
What? The concept of deity isn't vague enough for you already?
I don't worship anything, even subconsciously. Unless you also make the definition of "worship" pretty vague too.
one thing i notice *zips up flame retardent suit* those who are sure religion is for the birds are generally more insulting in explaining their logic than those who believe in God.
I'm willing to bet that some of that comes from some of the (a/non)theists believing in a greater validity to an ideology that has a more modern or philosophical outlook.
to me it seems that Mrnoodle should be more emotionally entangled in his defense - he has his eternal soul on the block, after all. you and TS have absolutely nothing at risk if you are right, so why do you care so much if someone believes otherwise?
I'm going to have to disagree on this.
1) What if both noodle and myself are wrong?
2) for myself, I feel I have more at risk because I personally have built my belief structure from many sources and am in an ongoing campain to clarify and correct any innaccuracies or mistakes. I'd say that I have
more invested in my beliefs because I've done most of the work as opposed to picking up a prefab paradigm.
I don't worship anything, even subconsciously.
Not even facts?
Because you have built your belief structure from many sources doesn't make it any more original. And again the atheist arrogance (however unintentional) - what makes you think that I have done any less thinking or soul searching along my path than you have done on yours?
Your effort to clarify and correct any inaccuracies you perceive in your sources is doomed to fail - not because you're not equally capable as any other human being, but because you are equally fallible. And it's what separates my God from yours - I believe in an infallible God, so my goal is to align myself with one ultimate truth, not be blown around like a leaf in whatever wind happens by. Custom-building "truth" from whatever sources jibe with your current desires and whims is the downfall of atheism, and frankly, most major Christian denominations.
Not even facts?
Like I said, you'd have to smudge the definition of "worship" beyond my understanding of the word in order to apply it to my relationship with facts. I respect facts, and find them useful. Is that worship?
Custom-building "truth" from whatever sources jibe with your current desires and whims is the downfall of atheism, and frankly, most major Christian denominations.
Which one(s) don't do it?
Good point. All manmade religious denominations do it to some extent. But religion is man's corporate attempt to define and worship God corporately. On an individual level, our relationship with God is free of religion - we just gather with people who believe similarly, so we can help each other in our faith. It's only when we start deciding to form committees and act in the interest of "the church" and not in God's interest that we fail. And the failures are spectacular, and lots of people get hurt, because we suck at being God.
Thousands if not millions of Catholics are waiting with bated breath to see if the pope is going to live or die. If he dies, they think God won't have a mouthpiece and we'll be without spiritual direction until the next one is appointed. It's the pinnacle of wrong thinking as far as Christianity is concerned - God acts on a personal level, not through some guy in Rome. Who set that up, anyway? T'weren't God.
At the risk of offending sensitive Catholics, I don't consider them to be "followers of Jesus" or God. They do ALOT of stuff that God expressly prohibits, like worshiping idols and other people (Mary and Saints). The only person who is supposed to intercede for you is Jesus. Catholics also have a different set of commandments than everyone else. And the whole Pope thing. What is that about?
At the risk of offending sensitive Catholics, I don't consider them to be "followers of Jesus" or God. They do ALOT of stuff that God expressly prohibits, like worshiping idols and other people (Mary and Saints). The only person who is supposed to intercede for you is Jesus. Catholics also have a different set of commandments than everyone else. And the whole Pope thing. What is that about?
Well, now i'm offended. :) Of course, Catholics don't have the patent on doing stuff god expressly prohibits. Everybody does that.
And, i'm not catholic, but was raised catholic and my mom is a devout catholic. If you think they are wrong, what do you have to say about the Jews? Too bad salvation is denied so many, right?
who is salvation denied to? no one.
who doesn't ask for it? lots of people.
:)
Jews are a whole nother story.
I'm currently researching this very subject. If the scholars, historians and other learned people are correct, and Jesus really did exist, and the Jews missed it. There are, however, a growing number of Messianic Jews, Jews who believe in the orthodoxy of Judaism and also that Jesus was the Messiah that the prophecies foretold.
MrNoodle, I don't know exactly what you mean by that.
OC--the Jews for Jesus thing nauseates most Jews. Just ask them. Why is it one way or no way to salvation? I think the Universe supports the theory that God loves diversity.
The speaker of the word
and the hearer of the word
and the words themselves—
all three become spirit in the end.
-Mathnawi [VI, 72]
OC--the Jews for Jesus thing nauseates most Jews. Just ask them.
Oh, no argument there. I'm well aware. I've had discussions with Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Messianic Jews.
Why is it one way or no way to salvation?
Because God said so.
I think the Universe supports the theory that God loves diversity.
You're right! But He gave humans only a special gift: free will. You love him and want to do what he asks or you don't. If you don't, don't expect the good stuff later on.
The main difference between Jews and Jesus followers is that the Jews don't believe the final sacrifice was made by Jesus, so they are still waiting for the savior God said would come. They believe the savior will come, they just don't think Jesus (or Mohammad) was it.
OC--I can honestly say that you are someone I admire for her logical, dispassionate arguments. (Me, being illogical and passionate, am lost here.)
That said:----HOW can you blithely say "there is one path coz God said so!"-???
Surely you, you above all others, know that God is accessed via every and all paths that God deems (beyond your imagination) legitimate. How one people can claim legitimacy above all others is---frankly---FUCKED. Arbitrary. Without merit. Do you dare my conversion? Do you? Do you dare insert yourself into my metaphysical experience and deem it unworthy?
Arbitrary. Without merit. Do you dare my conversion? Do you? Do you dare insert yourself into my metaphysical experience and deem it unworthy?
I'll give it a go.
Competeing claims to a single possibility don't argue for a multiplicity of correct answers. If you say that 4 x 12 = 48 and I claim that 4 x 12 = 67, just because we have competing truth claims doesn't mean that we have no grounds for deciding between them.
If your metaphysical claim is "No truth except what can be mutually inclusive"
and Onyxcougar's metaphysical claims is "There is a specific and accurate revelation of God to us, and it has authoritative claim", just because there are competing claims doesn't mean we have some sort of logical quandry here. We should do what we always do ... evaluate the justification for each claim. There's nothing arbitrary about it.
Surely you, you above all others, know that God is accessed via every and all paths that God deems (beyond your imagination) legitimate. How one people can claim legitimacy above all others is---frankly---FUCKED. Arbitrary. Without merit. Do you dare my conversion? Do you? Do you dare insert yourself into my metaphysical experience and deem it unworthy?
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
"When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only , but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."
If I believe in Jesus, who said those things, how can I believe that there are multiple beliefs that lead to the same thing? And if I believe Jesus, then the second passage means that while no one on earth can judge your metaphysical experience, God can.
Would God fool me and send me a fake metaphysical experience? Not very nice.
or would you fool yourself and stumble upon an experience that is more palatable and more in line with the way you think things should be?
Would God fool me and send me a fake metaphysical experience? Not very nice.
First, lets address "metaphysical experience". I'm assuming from your statement that you've had one. I don't think ANY metaphysical experiences are fake. They happen. I've had a few myself.
But what happened? Voices? Visions? Out of Body? Dream Walking? All these things are real. Also things that are real: Angels and Demons and yes, the Devil.
I don't know WHY you had your experience. I don't what your experience was. I don't know where it came from. How do you know it was God? Why would
YOU think it fake?
How do you know it was God? Why would YOU think it fake?
I've had many spiritual/metaphysical experiences in my life and while experiencing them they seemed very, very real (feeling god's love, "eureka"-type thoughts about life, love, the universe, etc. and SPECIFIC answers to prayerful questions all count for me as spiritual experiences) but after the magic of the experience wears off--I wonder if it was real or something I made up. I think sustaining the enormity of the experience is near to impossible but essential to growth and to knowing God. I wish I had more faith. I wish I could sustain those experiences and learn MORE from them. I wish I believed.
It has always been my understanding that Christians teach that Satan cannot read minds or whisper into ears--he can only predict behavior and acts accordingly.
OC--I can honestly say that you are someone I admire for her logical, dispassionate arguments. (Me, being illogical and passionate, am lost here.)
Pfft! Hardly, Bri. I'm the least logical, and moderate to highly passionate person I know. Often I stumble and I screw up what I'm trying to say, and I take things WAY too personally most of the time. (Everything is not about me, and I need to keep that in mind.)
I think the best thing I can say about myself is that I am open minded and willing to listen to other people. I really try hard to look at both sides of an argument and sometimes I even argue for the other side, (Devil's advocate) just so I can see where that side is coming from. (That really screwed LJ up for awhile.) I can just as easily jump over to the atheist position and the evolutionist position and argue their points too, although I must admit, not as easily or comfortably as I argue what I believe in.
I didn't come to my particular set of beliefs blindly. It's when I started searching in earnest that I found the answers. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I don't have all the answers, and that I could be wrong. I'll find out when I die, but unfortunetly, then I won't be able to tell anyone. But like my (apperantly offensive) ex-signature said, [COLOR=Indigo]"I'd rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there wasn't," [/COLOR]I've got nothing to lose if there's no God after all, [COLOR=Indigo]"than live as though there is no God" [/COLOR]that is, not doing what God says to do, which goes beyond being a good person and means LOVING GOD and HAVING A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, [COLOR=Indigo]"and die to find out there was." [/COLOR] because then it's too late.
If that's not your belief, I can't change that. I can't make you worship, I can't make you love God, and I can't make you experience his love and grace. No one can do that for you, build that relationship, except you and God.
What I CAN do, is present thought-nuggets. Throw them out there and see what happens. What I SHOULD do, according to the rulebook, is tell everyone I can what God has done for me, and explain WHY I believe what I believe.
I don't like it when evangelists try to scare people into converting (Way of the Master, et al.). Jesus didn't walk around saying "Love me and do exactly as I say or you're going to HELLLLLLLLLL!" He did, however, say a bunch of stuff about coming to save the world, because the only way to get to heaven is through him, and that the most important thing you can do is love him.
I am not any specific religion. I can't be. I read the bible, and I try to make sense of the verses as best I can, and apply them to my life. Why do I do this? Because I have come to believe that there really was a Jesus and he really was the bodily incarnation of the creator of the universe (and me) and he laid down some rules that are in my best interest. I love him. Because I love him, I want to please him. I want to make him happy. I want his spirit to hang out with me and let me know when I'm messing up, and feel the joy when I do good. I have felt the spirit. That has been one of my metaphysical experiences. I want to keep that joy with me as much as possible, and that means keeping to the rules.
It's a weird mixture of being selfish and being selfless. By being selfless, I bring good things to myself, which I like. By loving God to the best of my ability, I ensure my place in the spirit forever. You get what you give.
So you see, actually, I'm really emotional and passionate about it.
[/long-ass ramble]
I've had many spiritual/metaphysical experiences in my life and while experiencing them they seemed very, very real (feeling god's love, "eureka"-type thoughts about life, love, the universe, etc. and SPECIFIC answers to prayerful questions all count for me as spiritual experiences)
they ARE! Isn't that feeling GREAT?!
but after the magic of the experience wears off--I wonder if it was real or something I made up.
Why do you wonder? Why can't it be God? He made the whole universe and everything in it in 6 days, why is it out of his power to give you a revelationatory experience?
I think sustaining the enormity of the experience is near to impossible but essential to growth and to knowing God. I wish I had more faith. I wish I could sustain those experiences and learn MORE from them. I wish I believed.
You've had an experience that no one can explain. Other people have them all the time. The believers nod knowingly and understand, the skeptics shake their heads and say words like "delusional" "hallucinations" and "ignorant".
In the movie contact, the scientist asks the theologian, "How can you be sure it isn't just self-delusion?" He says, "Did you love your father?" She replies, "Yes, very much." He looks at her and quietly says, "Prove it."
Yes, relevations are spine-tingling things--but, but... why can't we live in a state more equal to that than this one we are usually in, the mundane, doubting, fearful life? There have been times in my life when I have had to rely on the spirit completely--and NOW is another of those times. When things are out of control I like to believe in a benevolent Being, but maybe I am making it up to soothe myself? I never know. Too many times God is silent. Too many times there are no answers.
Yes, relevations are spine-tingling things--but, but... why can't we live in a state more equal to that than this one we are usually in, the mundane, doubting, fearful life? There have been times in my life when I have had to rely on the spirit completely--and NOW is another of those times. When things are out of control I like to believe in a benevolent Being, but maybe I am making it up to soothe myself? I never know. Too many times God is silent. Too many times there are no answers.
God speaks not only in experiential ways, but through his words.
If you always felt good, if everything was always ok, there would be no need for faith. (Why you think Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden? They didn't appreciate what they had, so blew it for everybody.)
There are all kinds of quotes like, "There's no testimony without the test," and "When you feel furthest from God is the time to praise him" and things like that.
If God came down to you RIGHT NOW, and said, "Hi, Brianna. I'm Jesus. The bible really is the inerrant book of my father's, and contains what I said, will you worship me now?" you would no longer need faith.
Lots of people have posted definitions of faith. (Esp in the CvE thread.) Faith is having no proof, but believing anyway.
People in other cultures use different means to pray to different Gods with entirely different goals, yet they describe the enlightenment they get in similar terms.
People in other cultures use different means to pray to different Gods with entirely different goals, yet they describe the enlightenment they get in similar terms.
Having a religious belief is almost universal in humans because it is literally hardwired into the brain. It's a biological mechanism located in the temporal lobes near your ears. You can electomagnetically stimulate this particual area of the brain to cause religious feelings in people who have never had them before. Epiliptics who have suffered damage to their temporal lobes have stronger religious feelings than others. Etc.
The cynic will say that humans delude themselves into believing in a God. The faithful will look at the data and say that this portion of the temporal lobes is like an antenna that tunes in to God, and that God really exists.
There's tons of information out there on this, but here's somethng from the BBC that sums it up pretty well.
BBC article human brains and religionOooh! Oooh! Or MAYBE...
there really is a God and people experience him.
Oooh! Oooh! Or MAYBE...
there really is a God and people experience him.
Do you even read other people's posts?
"The faithful will look at the data and say that this portion of the temporal lobes is like an antenna that tunes in to God, and that God really exists."
Yes I do read other people's posts, Glatt. Do you?
There were other posts about the electrical current in the temporal lobes = religious experiences, making the point that it could all be explained away by science, and inferring that it was nothing more than that. I was responding to that portion of it.
I did see that you had mentioned the antenna thing in the post, but I don't buy into that hypothesis. Science is always trying to quantify God, and it's going to take more than electrical impulses to convince me of that.
Yes I do read other people's posts, Glatt. Do you?
There were other posts about the electrical current in the temporal lobes = religious experiences, making the point that it could all be explained away by science, and inferring that it was nothing more than that. I was responding to that portion of it.
We both know you were responding to my post, not to some post from another time. I foolishly took your bait and went back through the thread again to see where others were talking about the scientific studies of the temporal lobes and their relation to religion. Of course I found none. Perhaps you can point to them directly since I'm obviously blind.
My post was simply to put some cold hard facts out there that can be backed up through repeatable experiments by anyone that has the ability to do so. Nobody else in this thread has added science into the mix in such a specific way. It's all been theories in the absence of facts.
You may not believe in the science, but the people who took part in those experiments beleive that they saw God when their brains were zapped. We can zap them again and they will see God again. Unlike the theory of evolution, it's a repeatable experiment.
You can draw various conclusions from the data, but the data itself is good.
Two obvious conclusions are a) this part of the brain sees God, so God is a hallucination or b) this part of the brain sees God, so God is real.
Perhaps you have a different conclusion?
Well, actually, I was thinking (as I read the article) that those people sounded more like crazy people (giving birth to jesus, dying) than people who'd experienced what I had. I didn't have thoughts like those--I just felt an overwhelming peace and I felt (for a moment) that I was loved.
We both know you were responding to my post, not to some post from another time. I foolishly took your bait and went back through the thread again to see where others were talking about the scientific studies of the temporal lobes and their relation to religion. Of course I found none. Perhaps you can point to them directly since I'm obviously blind.
I don't particularly care to be called a liar. It's on the God? Faith? thread, post # 96, 97 and 98, posted by Troubleshooter about a book he is reading on that very subject.
My post was simply to put some cold hard facts out there that can be backed up through repeatable experiments by anyone that has the ability to do so. Nobody else in this thread has added science into the mix in such a specific way. It's all been theories in the absence of facts.
But there is absolutely NO WAY to say that any given person's religious type experience is a direct result of electrical stimuli in the temporal lobe. Yes, Im sure they can be induced by stimuli, but that doesn't mean ALL RE's are caused by that.
You may not believe in the science,
Of course I believe in science. I just don't swallow some theoretical hypothesis without better evidence than one study.
but the people who took part in those experiments beleive that they saw God when their brains were zapped. We can zap them again and they will see God again. Unlike the theory of evolution, it's a repeatable experiment.
For those people. Not every person has been tested. I haven't seen the results of the study, so I don't know their methodology, or their sample groups. I don't know what them seeing God was like for them, or how that would differ from me seeing God.
You can draw various conclusions from the data, but the data itself is good.
The data is good for those patients. Not necessarily every human will experience the same thing.
Two obvious conclusions are a) this part of the brain sees God, so God is a hallucination or b) this part of the brain sees God, so God is real.
I disagree with that. I think a murderer or Satanist who got zapped may think they see God, but is it really God or is it a product of energized brain neurons firing in a random pattern?
Do you see what I'm saying here? Electrical activity is NOT the same as God revealing himself to you.
Perhaps you have a different conclusion?
Again, I haven't seen the study or taken part in the study, therefore I cannot draw a conclusion regarding that hypothesis.
edit: Just because you don't see something you're looking for doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I haven't read every page since my last post but I assume it's the same old 'religion is bollocks vs no it's not' debate.
I was just wondering, Mr Noodle, if you would mind posting in detail your exact experience with god - thoughts, feelings, sights, sounds, physiological responses (ie stomach clenching) etc. I would be fascinated to hear about it.
hmm. it's difficult to put into words, gonna have to think on it. i'm afraid you'll be disappointed if you're expecting dramatic physical manifestations, though.
Awe? conviction? happiness? rightness? I've only experienced the kind of thing you're talking about twice - usually God is kind of in the background, reminding and gently prodding, not flying around in the sky with robes billowing and lightning flashing from his beard, which is what most non-believers are looking for as proof.
the sort of experience you're talking about - one of those life-changing moments where all doubt is removed and you know (or hallucinate, if you prefer) that God exists and that he's not only alive but actually in your life - is rare. I experienced it when I first asked Christ into my heart (a Sunday Schoolism that means nothing more than accepting that God is the creator, Jesus is his son, that your sin separates you from God and that you believe Jesus' sacrifice on the cross paid for your sin, and you want to start living for God instead of against him - pretty simple actually). It happened again last year and is a very intensely personal moment for me.
I won't give you much backstory, since the post is already too long, but I had been struggling with sins of various kinds for a couple of years. My refusal to let them go had cost me a lot spiritually, to the point that I felt like God wasn't even listening. This is an alien concept to anyone who isn't down with the whole Christian thing, but bear with me.
I felt like I was just below the surface of the water, looking up and wanting to break free, but feeling like that last kick that would put me above water was just too hard to make. I doubted my salvation, doubted if there was even such a thing. I went to church, talked a good talk, and thought that everything was cool. I didn't see my own arrogance, and didn't realize the reason God hid himself from me was because I really didn't want to know him - I just needed him to get me out of tight spots emotionally and spiritually.
God said 'Ha', to paraphrase Julia Sweeney.
A particular event in my life finally broke me (it wasn't big in itself, but was a trigger) I finally broke, and for the first time in 6 years admitted that I was on the wrong path, and asked God if he was there to reveal himself. Well, he did. I don't remember any physical sensation or sounds (I had a Christian band playing on the stereo, since I needed to learn the song for church band - yah, I was a hypocrite). What I do remember is being overcome with the presence of God. I went to my knees, face on the floor, and cried and prayed for like an hour. No voices, no harps, just being absolutely humbled to the point that taking my face off the carpet would've been presumptuous.
I wish I could describe it better, but there aren't words for some things. I've been high, I've been drunk, I've hallucinated when I had a fever. I've had adrenaline rushes, endorphin floods, and everything else - pursued them as a matter of course, in fact. This was none of those things. It was an external presence that completely filled the room and me, inside and out. Were my temporal lobes stimulated? You betcha. And my heart, and everything about me.
Thinking back on it makes me ashamed of how I've lived since. Thank God he forgives you even when you're not exactly being a team player.
My husband says he was in the bathroom shaving about 3 years ago, and he was thinking about the same thing, and he felt a "presence" and he heard Jesus talking to him. He too, went to his knees and it took a long time to get up.
My experiences have been much less intense that yours and my husbands, it's been alot more practical experiences (what some people call intuition or conscience or sixth sense), but then, I've had that connection since I became a witch, I just realize what it is now.
:)
My experiences have been much less intense that yours and my husbands, it's been alot more practical experiences (what some people call intuition or conscience or sixth sense), but then, I've had that connection since I became a witch, I just realize what it is now.
Ok, so you're a witch, who believes in God(tm), and is a literalist creationist?
Did I miss anything?
Is it ok to believe in the religions? Many Muslim people think they should take war to conquer the non-Muslim. I have no any religions, but i think any religions has its advantages and disadvantages. Many people believe religions to satisfy themselves.
It was an external presence that completely filled the room and me, inside and out.
The external presence that you have labelled 'God' is probably more accurately described as 'Now'.
I wanted you to relate your experience to double-check.
'Now' can happen any time. When you're walking along the street and you suddenly feel an overwhelming wave of elation - you don't understand why but you feel everything is right, as it should be. When you're talking to someone and feel an inexplicable connection that makes your eyes water. When you're sitting on a cliff top looking at nature and you're completely at peace. When you're in a shopping mall and feel fantastic because you realise the stupidity of the masses of blind, confused, poor souls trying to buy their way into now. This is when you are in the moment. You must have heard the phrase a million times but who actually is?
The falling to the knees, the praying... this is because you didn't know what was happening. You knew it was good, knew it was right, and because of years of conditioning you labelled this 'god's presence'. I understand the feeling. I have it maybe three times a week, maybe less, maybe more. It's getting more often anyway.
But this is not a god that insists you go to a building we call a church, that punishes you if you don't sit and pray, that will send you to hell if you blaspheme, that commands respect and idolisation and answers a prayer. Your guilt is unecessary - you can have all the fantastic things you think you have found in god without the ritual, the rules, the rubbish I call religion.
Think about it. How can something so huge, so overwhelmingly spiritual, rely on ritual and guilt?
You can get that feeling again, any day, if you allow yourself complete freedom to be in the now. It's not complicated, it's not amazing, and it's certainly not religion. It's very simple, and anthing else is extraneous.
Ok, so you're a witch, who believes in God(tm), and is a literalist creationist?
Did I miss anything?
Nope. That about sums it up.
But this is not a god that insists you go to a building we call a church, that punishes you if you don't sit and pray, that will send you to hell if you blaspheme, that commands respect and idolisation and answers a prayer.
You're talking about religion here. That's not what Jesus teaches.
Your guilt is unecessary - you can have all the fantastic things you think you have found in god without the ritual, the rules, the rubbish I call religion.
Exactly! That's religion. It's not a personal relationship with God. BIG difference. I have no guilt, I curse, I don't go to church (my husband does, but that's because he wants to, not because he feels he has to.), I have sex in other than missionary position, I don't confess to a priest, I don't walk around telling people they're going to hell. In short, I'm not religious.
But that doesn't mean I'm not Christian.
Think about it. How can something so huge, so overwhelmingly spiritual, rely on ritual and guilt?
It doesn't. :)
But why feel the need to label it 'Christian'? Why do you have to be something?
Why can't you just be?
Of course it's possible I'm missing something here and what I call 'now' is actually 'god' but my rational, secular mind (equally as conditioned as an irrational, religious mind) can cope better with calling it 'now'... what is god. What do you mean. Explain yourself in three sentences!
Nope. That about sums it up.
All I can say is damn.
O'Brian doesn't have shit on you.
But why feel the need to label it 'Christian'? Why do you have to be something?
Why can't you just be?
Of course it's possible I'm missing something here and what I call 'now' is actually 'god' but my rational, secular mind (equally as conditioned as an irrational, religious mind) can cope better with calling it 'now'... what is god. What do you mean. Explain yourself in three sentences!
The other explanation is that your "now" and my "God" are different things. If you have the experience that I had three times a week, you wouldn't be upright, much less coherent. No, I've experienced the "now" moments as well. That's how I know the difference.
Three sentences won't do it. But here's a start. The idea that "labelling" something is wrong is a product of the 60s, and invalid for the rest of the human timeline. I detest it. "Don't label me, I'm
unique." No, you're not.
So, if we accept that labelling is a good thing, particularly when it enables us to accurately represent something to other people, then we can move on.
The Christian experience is labelled as such because a couple thousand years ago, people who knew Christ wrote down his words and teachings. He primed us on what to expect from a relationship with him, warned us against worshipping other things that seemed similar but weren't, and said that when he was gone from earth, the Holy Spirit would take his place as a comforter and teacher until his return. When I refer to my earlier experience, I am talking about what I firmly believe to be an experience with the Holy Spirit that Jesus referred to in his teaching. Not universal consciousness, not "now", but a named, unique, individual being who communicates God's will to humans. I can't lump that in with some kind of random adrenaline dump.
I can't lump that in with some kind of random adrenaline dump.
Why not? The brain is the ultimate arbiter, there is no other way to interpret sensory input.
The brain isn't the ultimate arbiter in my worldview. The brain is the computer for the physical body, the soul is the user of the computer. The soul is higher in the hierarchy, and the brain isn't necessarily aware of it.
When you accept that there are concepts that the tissue of the human brain is incapable of containing, you really free up your spiritual side to experience cool stuff. Some people take drugs in an attempt to make the physical brain reproduce this awareness, but it's a poor substitute.
But of course, you might be right. I'm limited by my skull full of mush, too.
The brain is the computer for the physical body, the soul is the user of the computer.
I won't disagree with that.
One question that has always been floating around in the back of my mind is whether the aware mind, the human consciousness, is just simply the result of enough connections in the right pattern being formed, an unintended side effect. I don't have anything to draw that conclusion from other than subconscious musings mixed with bits and pieces from all over the place and the idea of "greater than the sum of its parts".
I just don't see the soul as seperate from the body. I see the soul as the sum total of who a person is. I've seen nothing to lead me to believe otherwise.
That being said, I see no reason to cast off the idea of spiritual development because an unenlightened person is nothing more than an animal that is short on instincts compared to the rest of the animal kingdom.
I am a matter-less ‘person’ residing in a living lump of meat. When you put it like that, the notion of a soul seems insane. The immortal soul, our essential self, the one thing that eludes death, pain or distress, is our salvation from reality.
Now this is not necessarily a bad thing. It isn't pretty, this world. People die, people don't love you and most of the time it's pretty boring. So you make your own fun (or meaning). This can be within your little microcosm of family and friends, or widened to give it greater credibility, ie religion/spirituality.
The human body is fragile for god's sake (no pun intended). Just think - the stress of living in this world is enormous - we need some escape, it's self-preservation. Just like a lifer who creates his own fantasy world to avoid the reality of sitting in a box for the rest of his life.
Mr noodle - imagine the relief, the sheer pleasure of an alternative. You said something had happened in your life, something bad, that finally pushed you into believing. You had reached the ultimate point of desperation with this life and here - here was a god, an all-knowing, all loving creature to sooth your fears and help you through. Of course you would accept it, or course you would welcome it. You might even be drawn to your knees from such relief and joy.
The reason I don't have this experience every day is because I don't need the relief - nothing bad happens in my life. Oh, of course, bad things have happened - people dying, people going insane, people leaving me, people not loving me etc. But I don't see these things as bad, I just see them for what they are. "Oh no my best friend's died, this means something." No, "My best friend's died." And that's it.
My best friend didn't die, but whatever happens in my life is nothing more than what happens. There's no soul, no redemption, no restarts and no other world. Get used to it and then you'll start seeing it properly.
Last night I dreamnt that I was sent to hell. On my way down, it was more like falling through space; at first it was really liberating, until I realized where I was going. On my fall down, I was given the chance to redeem myself. I was forced by the devil to become an Iron-Chef, and I had to prepare all my dishes with my hands (over a hot skillet).
There wasn't fire and guys with pitchforks; and it wasn't THAT bad.. I don't think things are as black or white as God and the Devil; it's just a system that you can believe in. Maybe you believe in it 76% percent, or maybe you just believe in it 4%.
Mr noodle - imagine the relief, the sheer pleasure of an alternative. You said something had happened in your life, something bad, that finally pushed you into believing. You had reached the ultimate point of desperation with this life and here - here was a god, an all-knowing, all loving creature to sooth your fears and help you through. Of course you would accept it, or course you would welcome it. You might even be drawn to your knees from such relief and joy.
No, I had reached a point where my distance from God's will had made me desperate. I already believed, but had let my belief falter. Just sin, not some huge bad event. It's kind of hard to explain to someone who doesn't "get" the sin concept. God didn't soothe my fears necessarily - he just made his presence known. That brought a combination of awe (near terror) and peace. Really can't explain it.
The reason I don't have this experience every day is because I don't need the relief - nothing bad happens in my life.
You. Are. So. Lucky.
I AGREE. I BELIEVE YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT.
I AGREE. I BELIEVE YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT.
I believe you need to be excused. Permanently.
Agreed, and that's what's happened. The warning didn't take, so...
i haven't seen too many stalkers of this brew around here. any good stories from the past, on similar nuts?
But why feel the need to label it 'Christian'? Why do you have to be something?
Why can't you just be?
Well lately, I'm re-evaluating that label. Anymore, it's a term applied to those that go around preaching hellfire and damnation and I can't get behind that.
But generally, the set of beliefs I hold as a moral standard most resemble the ones held by followers of Christ, hence "Christian".
The problem isn't with the "label", the problem is the perception that ALL Christians believe exactly the same thing and think and/or worship exactly the same way. The problem is overgeneralization.
I don't think Bush is "called of God" any more than I am.
(Yes, I know, Tee, I'm an extremist. blarg blarg blarg)
When it comes to "Christians" there is a vocal minority that spend their time telling everyone else what to do, how to do it and when.
I've no quarrel with the silent majority but the double bellybuttons are annoying. :(