The best and worst of 2004

List them people.
The best thing that happened was John Kerry losing the White House. :thumbsup:

The worst thing that happened was George Bush winning the White House. :thumbsdn:

Griff wrote:

List them people.
The best thing that happened was John Kerry losing the White House. :thumbsup:

The worst thing that happened was George Bush winning the White House. :thumbsdown:

I'm not sure about the Kerry part, but I agree on the Bush part. I don't completely despise GWB, but there are advisors and members of his cabinet that I would have been overjoyed to see leave, preferably through an upper floor window. :eyebrow:

BTW, the thumbsdown :thumbsdn: is spelled thumbsdn if you want to get the smiley. I'm guessing you somehow overtyped it.

I think a tsunami that wiped out most of the coastlines of SE Asia and the Indian Subcontinent probably qualifies as one of the worst of 2004.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&e=1&u=/nm/20041226/wl_nm/quake_dc

7,000 dead and many more anticipated. The scale of this event is almost unimaginable.

12,300 dead at last count. Nature versus man is putting up man vs man numbers. I can't get my head around the scale of this thing.

As of this morning, that death toll is estimated 23,000. Imagine enough corpses to fill all of the seats at the Alamo Stadium in San Antonio, TX.

Before Saturday, I'd have said Those Four Hurricanes were the one of the best and worst things to happen in 2004 simultaneously. Best because I'm a weather buff and I love big weather events. Worst because it was four hurricanes all hitting the same region in a span of about 6 weeks. I miss my tomatoes and the general quality of citrus around here sucks.

my sister is in Phuket. She was up on a mountain side riding an elephant when the destruction occurred. Her hotel is completely gone. Other than the 3 hours for the elephant ride she had spent all her time on the beach right in front of her hotel. An hour into the elephant ride she was pretty mad at her friends for talking her into the whole elephant thing because she would much rather be sunbathing on the beach. A little while later she thought otherwise. She lost everything but the cloths she is wearing and her camera. Her passport is longgone but she does have her life. Her friends that she went with are ok, but a couple of people they had dinner with the night before are missing.

How did you hear from your sister? Are the internet Cafes up and running? Is she still in the area, or did she move on to another city?

lookout123 wrote:

my sister is in Phuket.

A sports utility vehicle is wrapped up in power lines on Patong Beach, Monday, Dec. 27, 2004, in Phuket, Thailand. Rescue teams converged on beaches and remote islands in search of the missing Monday as the Thai prime minister said that up to 700 people perished when earthquake-spawned tidal waves devastated idyllic resort areas of southern Thailand. (AP Photo/Suzanne Plunkett)

she had become acqainted with the owner of an internet cafe before this happened and she gave my sister access for a couple of minutes so she could let us know she was ok. we're still waiting to hear more.

Holy Cow. That's a near hit. (I don't like saying "near miss" because it was a full miss, and a near hit.)

I can't imagice 23,000 people that were there at 6:45am and gone at 7:15am. That's insane.

This quake measured 9.0 on the Richter scale, the 4th largest earthquake since 1900 and the largest since the 1964 Alaska quake, but the tsunami's are what did most of the damage.

Sending good vibes out that way....

Radar, was your wife affected?

BBC reporter vacationing in Sri Lanka describes he and his 'partner' sleeping only 3 meters from the waves when the tidal wave struck. They were awaken by unusual sounds and yelling. They managed to run out the back, get carried inland, and hang on a tree for while. The tree is now gone. He describes the sudden quiet when flood waters stopped flowing.

His room was completely destroyed. Others had immediately assumed he was gone.

Last number I heard was between 22 to 23 thousand dead. But a number of 40,000 is not unreasonable. Massive areas in Sumatra have not yet been contacted.

The length of the quake is also unusal - about 1000 kilometers. Equivalent to a quake everywhere from LA to San Francisco.

Sometimes we must learn from experience. Its a fact of life - and death.

Elspode wrote:

I think a tsunami that wiped out most of the coastlines of SE Asia and the Indian Subcontinent probably qualifies as one of the worst of 2004.

This after typhoon and hurricanes in record numbers on both the western Atlantic and western Pacific. Something like the 26th typhoon of the year struck only last month. I'm so upset. I can't even get a good tomato. Clearly god must be punishing the world for letting us elect George Jr.

OK, this covers two worsts. 1) The earthquake and all it entails, 2) THE MEDIA.

i'll post the link. my mother forwarded my sister's email to my aunt who apparently works at a newspaper. apparently the story wasn't interesting enough on it's own because the author decided that if my sister is a christian in Thailand she MUST be a missionary, and let's make it 3 years while we're at it. she isn't. she is an english teacher in Seoul trying to pay off student loans, she went to Thailand for Christmas because it was cheaper than flying to the states.

bad media

Did you know your sister is Amy Poehler??

uh, no. who is amy poehler? oh, and i also like that they used a photo from 4/5 years ago. i hadn't even paid attention to that.

Saturday Night Live cast member, very excellent comic actress.

excellent, i always knew my sister was funny, but famous? i'll have to hit her up for some money.

Perhaps your aunt was responsible for the story's embellishments ... you'll have to castigate her severely. The reporter may have actually just reported.

it's possible i suppose. i'll have to beat the truth out of her, next time i go to illinois.

Praise Jesus and pass the elephants.

Glad to hear that your sis is alright, Lookout. Some very, very scary stuff going on over there.

I'm also glad to hear she is safe! But...

"It is insane to think of all that was occurring as God sheltered us high above on the mountain," she said.

"It's not just a coincidence. It was God's hand that kept her safe," Ms. Smith's aunt, Barb Ritter, said.

...does this mean God purposely killed the 44,000+ other people?

yes. yes, kitsune that is exactly what it means.

God was bored, kind of like a little kid with a big lens standing over an anthill.

Worst thing: Me closing the Manifestos here.

Best thing: Me deciding to stay here and hang out with you guys...you're welcome. ;)

Not a great video but good enough to get an idea.

From rooftop looking down on Patong Beach, Thailand:

Originally, I would have said that the worst event this year was the Utah woman that refused to have a C-section, apparently for vanity reasons, and one of the fetuses died.

Then came the incident in Skidmore, MO with the mother-to-be.

Now we've had the earthquake and tsunamis in South Asia.

I have seen and heard some really fucked up things in my 29 years of life...these 3 items are among the worst...the last 2 easily make my all-time top 10.

Oh...the best thing: Regardless of whom you voted for, the elections went relatively well...thank God!

sycamore wrote:

Oh...the best thing: Regardless of whom you voted for, the elections went relatively well...thank God!

...or so Diebold would have you believe.

Next time lets just ask Rove ahead of time who the President will be and save a few bucks.

How big was the tsunami-causing earthquake? Big enough to make your days a fraction of a second shorter.

Well this is certainly one way to look at it (from a CNN article about an American who was scuba-diving during the tsunami, then came ashore to help the victims):

"...the biggest thing they noticed was the absence of the stench of raw sewage that had permeated the air. 'She said the clean smell was amazing.'"

Kitsune wrote:

How big was the tsunami-causing earthquake? Big enough to make your days a fraction of a second shorter.

I find that fascinating.... not so much that the world wobbled from an earthquake -<small> these things have been happening since the dawn of time, no? and why wouldn't it cause planetary issues?</small>-, but that we have the technology to know and measure em.

Clodfobble wrote:

"...the biggest thing they noticed was the absence of the stench of raw sewage that had permeated the air. 'She said the clean smell was amazing.'"

That won't last long ...

Mass disaster sites start to reek within a couple of days because of the rotting carcasses and debris, and general lack of sanitation.

Another thought ... I wouldn't think diving near anywhere that you could clearly discern the stench of raw sewage would be a good idea.

Beestie wrote:

Not a great video but good enough to get an idea.

The beach in the first part of the tape is not the place hit by the wave in the second part; there's an (obvious) splice. That leads me to believe the whole thing may be a fake, though it may be real footage spliced in after some stock footage.

Reuters is reporting that wildlife experts in Sri Lanka are baffled that there are no dead animals. Thousands of humans were killed, but they haven't found any dead wild animals.

You always hear about animals acting freaky just before an earthquake. Maybe all the animals in the wildlife park that got slammed by the waves quietly headed for the hills hours before the waves hit, and nobody noticed.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=QXZYZDDIHECEWCRBAEKSFFA?type=scienceNews&storyID=7198022

I've been to the Maldives three times in the past. These islands are so small, even a wave a metre high would flatten them. Apparently, the highest natural point above sea level in all the islands is only eight feet.

glatt wrote:

...or so Diebold would have you believe.

Here, glatt...have a tinfoil hat. :)

1,190 islands are spread over 26 atolls natural atolls, ring-like coral formations enclosing a lagoon, which gives the Maldives its unique appearance. They stretch for about 820 km from North to South, 130 km from East to West at the widest point and do not exceed a length of 4.5 miles or an altitude of 6 feet above sea level.

Cite: http://www.sun-vacations.com/geography.html

Good god. CNN is reporting this morning that the tsunami death toll is over 116,000.

That number is so large, it's difficult to comprehend. I'm not sure if I can comprehend it. In terms of casualties, it's like having a 9/11 attack every day for almost two months.

glatt wrote:

That number is so large, it's difficult to comprehend. I'm not sure if I can comprehend it. In terms of casualties, it's like having a 9/11 attack every day for almost two months.

These numbers are not hard to comprehend. 100,000 dead. Millions homeless. An MBA president many days later finally decides to send a massive ..... $35 million. That is 3 days in Iraq. Other figures suggest that is 1/2 day in Iraq. This is a moral man? The numbers are easy to comprehend. Do the math. We have an MBA as president who sat on his moral ass for five days doing nothing while people were starving - and then decided to pledge a few peanuts. Wave that American flag in pride.

Listen to overseas news reports. The generousity of a president who caused 98,000 dead Iraqis is so large - than he finally decided to pledge $35 million. And how much of that goes instead to Halliburton, et al?

Numbers are bluntly obvious. The moral president sees nothing in spending $400 billion to create 98,000 dead Iraqis - and nothing - also called $35 million - to help Tsunami victims. The numbers are bluntly easy to fathom ... if one does the math and does not listen to George Jr for the truth. He was rather blunt in his actions. Those are obvious numbers comprehended throughout the world - a paltry $35 million so that he does not look callous.

American aid should start at about $1billion - and be taken from the $billions we give to Israel every year - as if Israel needs any of it. Or the $8billion we gave to the airlines to pay their incompetant managers - no strings attached. Instead we pledged a massive $35 million. Right out the Visine commercial - Wooooowwwww.

Are you an American? Are you not proud of the mental midget anti-American president? The same man that Rush Limbaugh praises. Americans should be so proud of their so moral president - who sat on his ass for five days with no action beyond dispatching 12 C-130s. Wave that Ameircan flag proudly. All moralist should talk with admiration of the mental midget president ... and his $35 million.

I say we send all our aid via Israel.

Sri Lanka refused to accept a 150-member Israeli aid delegation which was set to leave on Tuesday for the island to assist operations

I'll wave my US flag proudly for the citizens of this country that donated $18mil in under three days out of their own pockets to the Red Cross, alone, to aid the victims.

I agree, though, that the government money should be much higher.

tw wrote:

An MBA president many days later finally decides to send a massive ..... $35 million. That is 3 days in Iraq. Other figures suggest that is 1/2 day in Iraq. This is a moral man? The numbers are easy to comprehend. Do the math. We have an MBA as president who sat on his moral ass for five days doing nothing while people were starving - and then decided to pledge a few peanuts.

I might question the morality of someone who uses such a disaster to push his agenda on unrelated things, like Iraq, Israel, and airlines. However, instead, I'll just ask you for a peanut.

BTW, the first $400,000 was available immediately (not days later) and the first $15 million was pledged within a day. Aid on the scale of billions would certainly require a special congressional appropriation.

. Aid on the scale of billions would certainly require a special congressional appropriation

and probably a better idea of how it could best be given. i'm thinking that the most appropriate aid cannot be determined in a 24 hour period. but i forgot, george bush is evil and incompetant, so whatever he did was wrong. what was an appropriate amount to send? what time frame would have been appropriate before we committed said amount? maybe we should have just loaded up some C17's with $100 bills and airdropped them on the islands?

russotto wrote:

I might question the morality of someone who uses such a disaster to push his agenda on unrelated things, like Iraq, ... BTW, the first $400,000 was available immediately (not days later) and the first $15 million was pledged within a day. Aid on the scale of billions would certainly require a special congressional appropriation.

We have an executive in the government who can respond to unexpected events without Congressional approval? Russotto knew that when he posted a pathetic $15million response. The president knew the size and potential scope of this disaster that first day. He has the power to dispatch aid on minutes notice. Or at least he could if he read his Presidential Daily Briefing. He has fleets of thousand of aircraft that can be dispatched or be planning immediate transport on hours notice. Instead the NY Times says his response over many days was 6 C-130 medium transports and some P3 Orion surveillance planes. Pathetic that Russotto would ignore these facts as if there were politics involved. The president’s response was that pathetic - as the numbers in dollars and equipment demonstrate AND as world criticism so accurately notes. Especially when a response in the first hours and first days is absolutely the most critical to saving human life.

The military has a surge capability that can start in hours. No Congressional approval required as Russotto well knew. Where are three aircraft carrier groups when they are needed immediately? Waiting for orders that were not issued. One finally got word to get ready to go days later. Pathetic, along with a paltry $35million aid package.

What are the death rates - remembering that 3,000 died on 11 September that was a disaster of epic proportions? Probably 2,000 dead Americans alone. Maybe 6,000 dead Norwegians. American's presidential response was so pathetic than even private groups apparently did far more when response was must needed.

I have no time for silly photographs of crying people, shrouded bodies, and broken trees. I want fact found in photographs with real perspective. Finally found what the president would have had on his desk on Sunday. This from the NY Times are 12 photos that truly put the event in perspective Asia's Deadly Waves . Click on the first row "Photos: Impact" . Click on the second row "Before and After".

Sidebar: Diego Garcia is a rather secret American base that is (if I have the numbers right) less than 10 feet above sea level. It too was struck by this Tsunami. And yet we hear nothing. Curious.

lookout123 wrote:

and probably a better idea of how it could best be given. i'm thinking that the most appropriate aid cannot be determined in a 24 hour period.

What is required in the first hours and first day is obvious in every disaster of this type. Food, blankets, shelter, medicine, clean water, and bases for expediting future aid. It does not change. What comes later is determined by the first responders. But what comes later cannot be determined if those first responder are on the ground - ASAP. Lookout123 knew this. He just wants to argue.

tw wrote:

I have no time for silly photographs of crying people, shrouded bodies, and broken trees. I want fact found in photographs with real perspective. Finally found what the president would have had on his desk on Sunday. This from the NY Times are 12 photos that truly put the event in perspective Asia's Deadly Waves . Click on the first row "Photos: Impact" . Click on the second row "Before and After".

Sidebar: Diego Garcia is a rather secret American base that is (if I have the numbers right) less than 10 feet above sea level. It too was struck by this Tsunami. And yet we hear nothing. Curious.

Good link to those aerial photos. They are amazing, and tell a lot.

Also, according to Stars and Stripes, Diego Garcia felt nothing and is fine.

Since when was Diego Garcia secret?

Silence!!! you dare to question the statement of the infallible tw??? simpleton. sit back and allow him to bestow his infathomable knowledge upon you.

[size=1]sorry.[/size]

wolf wrote:

That won't last long ...

Mass disaster sites start to reek within a couple of days because of the rotting carcasses and debris, and general lack of sanitation.

Another thought ... I wouldn't think diving near anywhere that you could clearly discern the stench of raw sewage would be a good idea.

*remembers the smell of burning flesh*Are they going to be able to bury that many people all at once?

One of the biggest problems I have is the expectation of aid regardless of how people in the various parts of the world feel about us.

"Fuck you America! Where's my check?"

tw wrote:

He just wants to argue.

And you don't. Got it.

OnyxCougar wrote:

Since when was Diego Garcia secret?

It's not a secret, but it doesn't have the exposure that Gitmo has, even though it has a greater role in our Mideast presence.

Edit: to say that I haven't heard of Diego Garcia in the news in at least a decade until I went out of my way yesterday or the day before to do a Google search to see if it survived the waves. Do you recall any Diego Garcia news stories in the last decade?

Troubleshooter wrote:

One of the biggest problems I have is the expectation of aid regardless of how people in the various parts of the world feel about us.

"Fuck you America! Where's my check?"

I agree. They love us when they get a big fat check though, don't they?

Obviously not. They whine that it's not big and fat enough.

Clodfobble wrote:

Obviously not. They whine that it's not big and fat enough.

They sound just like a lot of americans eh?

"Fuck you America! Where's my check?"

Try, "Fuck you, America! Your economy is worth 10 trillion, you spend billions each year to wage war to kill hundreds of thousands of people, but when millions of lives are in danger you spend only a fraction of that."

As a country we are, and always have been, much more interested in destroying than preserving. And that goes for more than humanity.

ok, let's start from scratch here. bush is evil, incompetent, and maybe incontinant as well. tw is the presidential advisor.

What would have been an appropriate response to the Tsunami's? Run it by the numbers. what do you do in the 1st hour? 1st day? 2nd day? etc. i want details, not "i would do more..." what dollar amount would be satisfactory? do we send in our military?

oh and keep in mind that we can't actually dispurse any funds until the foreign power officially requests assistance through the embassies.

[SIZE=1]Uh, hand me the red flag. Now stand back.[/SIZE]
TW, we have to wait for aid requests. We just can't barge into soverign nations. :cool:

Kitsune wrote:

Try, "Fuck you, America! Your economy is worth 10 trillion, you spend billions each year to wage war to kill hundreds of thousands of people, but when millions of lives are in danger you spend only a fraction of that."

As a country we are, and always have been, much more interested in destroying than preserving. And that goes for more than humanity.

To be fair though, it's not like we have to give anyone anything.

To be fair though, it's not like we have to give anyone anything.

You are correct, we do not have to give anyone anything. We don't have to go out of our way to save anyone but ourselves. But we do it and we do it often. And we spend more to wage war to do it than we could without the loss of life. The problem is that we're constantly taking away in the name of giving and when we puff up our chest and declare ourselves the police of the world, the world expects us to step in when others are in trouble. The problem here is that with all of the resources at our disposal, we seem much more intent on spending more money to kill than to save.

glatt wrote:

Do you recall any Diego Garcia news stories in the last decade?

displaced natives

lookout123 wrote:

Silence!!! you dare to question the statement of the infallible tw??? simpleton. sit back and allow him to bestow his infathomable knowledge upon you.

Thank you for filling the air with your wisdom. Oh. That's air pollution.

OnyxCougar wrote:

Since when was Diego Garcia secret?

You just want to misquote? Sounds like a double standard. Diego Garcia is not secret. What is in and occurs at that Diego Garcia base is secret. The exact statement was "Diego Garcia is a rather secret American base." My would you misquote if you did not want to argue?

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

TW, we have to wait for aid requests. We just can't barge into soverign nations.

Now tell me how so many organizations from the Red Cross, Unicef, and other nations are currently providing aid - if no one has been invited?

Not only is India providing aid to its own people. India is also providing aid to Sri Lanka.

Its been 5 days. If dispatched a day after the disaster, the USS Kitty Hawk and its task force would already be there. Where are they? C5A and C17s would be landing for at least the second time with badly needed food, medicines, etc. This need not even come from the US government. The NGOs need that transportation desperately. Five days later we finally realize that something like 5 million people (including many of our own people) are in desperate need of help. Why? Because the international community shamed George Jr into paying attention to what has happened. Again look at the satellite photographs that George Jr has access to last Sunday. Then you tell me why he did not realize the scope of this disaster:
Asia's Deadly Waves . Click on the first row "Photos: Impact" . Click on the second row "Before and After".

Now tell me how so many organizations from the Red Cross, Unicef, and other nations are currently providing aid - if no one has been invited?

notice how none of those are US gov't organizations? If US military planes just started landing uninvited on foreign soil with supplies, wouldn't you be among the first complaining about US intrusion upon foreign soil?

Not only is India providing aid to its own people. India is also providing aid to Sri Lanka.

and that has what to do with the price of beans in china?

the USS Kitty Hawk and its task force would already be there. Where are they?

that's right they were just sitting there, doing nothing, waiting for a disaster relief mission. it's not like they were involved with any other areas of the world.

C5A and C17s would be landing for at least the second time with badly needed food, medicines, etc.

again, not without a formal request through the embassies which didn't occur until yesterday i believe.

Five days later we finally realize that something like 5 million people (including many of our own people) are in desperate need of help. Why?

you're right, noone was paying attention at all. or perhaps they were analyzing the situation and how best to provide real relief, rather than just start throwing everything at it and hoping that what was needed was somewhere in the mix.

do you realize that parts of thailand (phuket, patong) that we are seeing in news clips had people sitting on the beach sucking down margaritas the very next morning? if we had just immediately put planes in the air, they might not have taken supplies to the most appropriate locations.

GWB screws up enough that there is plenty to pick on, but to turn every stinking event in the world into a bush bash is just downright pathetic. what happened to you tw? did someone with a shiny new MBA kick sand in your face or steal your girlfriend once? why the blind hatred?

lookout123 wrote:

notice how none of those are US gov't organizations? If US military planes just started landing uninvited on foreign soil with supplies, wouldn't you be among the first complaining about US intrusion upon foreign soil?

Again explain what all those other nations and NGOs are doing in country. How come the Red Cross and Unicef already have ongoing aid programs when no one was invited. NGOs do not ask for government assistance. Government assistance is offered to them. The NGO are desperate to find aid for what they estimate are 5 million homeless and unfed people. But don't worry. The tourists are "sitting on the beach sucking down margaritas". Therefore there is not problem. I guess those up to 5 million people are also sucking down margaritas. I guess the NGOs are lying. Lookout123 says so?

Its quite likely that the final number is not as high as 5 million. It may only be 2 million. But don't worry. Lookout123 says tourists still have their margaritas. Sound like George Jr reasoning to me. I guess those satellite pictures don't mean anything if margaritas are available.

No wonder religious extremists always make bad leaders. Margaritas prove that people are not at risk.

Margaritas prove that people are not at risk.

yep. that's exactly what i was saying. or i may have been suggesting that if we had in a knee jerk reaction sent planeloads of supplies and aid to the places seen on tv, we may have been sending it to the wrong places. there were people on the beaches the very next day. my sister's hotel was on the beach. she saw them sunbathing. she walked the beach the very next day. i don't care if you believe me or not, although you could verify some of this by looking in the news, as there have been some reports of this.

and back to the red cross and NGO aid flowing in... do you seriously not understand that government regulations require that even after funds and support had been pledged, formal requests had to be made from the governments in need before the US government could do anything? the red cross and other NGO's can go and do as they please - they are after all Non-Governmental Organizations. international politics has a set of rules that are to be followed. We gripe when they aren't followed, we can't rightly gripe when they are.

Of course everything is okay.

-----
Tragedy? We're here for the bar girls and beer
December 31, 2004

Stefan Johansson, a 41-year-old air force officer from Sweden, is hoping tonight is the night. He is not concerned about aftershocks hitting the beach less than a kilometre from here, or about the haphazard rescue operation under way in southern Thailand.

Nor is he worried by the deaths of several hundred compatriots. Mr Johansson is anxious that the bar girl he has his eye on is going to keep holding out on him. "I'm having a good holiday," he said. "I went for a walk along the sand this morning, did a bit of swimming. Now I'm off drinking, and then we'll see."

Mr Johansson is not alone. Four days after the tsunami hit, normal life has returned to much of Phuket and surrounding resorts such as Patong. The girlie bars are reopening, the bazaars selling fake Rolex watches are busy, the tourists are streaming off flights and onto the beach. Here the request by the Thai Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, for the country to wear black and forgo New Year festivities seems likely to fall on deaf ears.

"I heard what was going on with the wave and so on, and I just thought it was a bit of an exaggeration," said Peter Anstiss, 48, from Sydney, as he shared a beer with his brother in a bar off Patong Beach's main drag. "I didn't think too much about it."

At Phuket's airport, Pornthip Sucharitcharan was preparing to welcome 200 new arrivals on behalf of the Phuket Hilton. Yesterday, 200 guests were due to fly in to stay at the hotel.

The only problem, as far as Mr Sucharitcharan was concerned, were delays to commercial flights by the unprecedented number of aircraft landing at the airport. The congestion was caused by aid flights coming in and planes bearing the dead, injured and badly shaken, going out.

Thousands of Thais are thought to have been killed when their flimsy bamboo homes were destroyed.

Many remote fishing villages are yet to be reached, though reports indicate severe damage. There is also little hard information on the effect of the tsunami on islands to the south of Phuket.

Yet the luxury Royal Lighthouse Villas is booked up for the rest of the season, and has had no cancellations following the disaster. And the sprawling Diamond Cliff Resort, set on a bluff directly above Phuket's debris-strewn Patong beach, welcomed 136 new guests.

One new arrival at the Diamond Cliff, who flew in with her family from Moscow on Tuesday, relaxed by the pool. "We are here on holiday, not to be sad," she said. "I know bad things have happened, but it's nothing to do with us."

Back in Patong, Elliot Reid, from Melbourne, was finishing his gin and tonic. "I heard the warning from the Government not to go to Phuket and just thought, f--- 'em," he said. "If your number's up, your number's up. By the time the next one happens in a hundred years, I'll be dead."
-----

lookout123 wrote:

and back to the red cross and NGO aid flowing in... do you seriously not understand that government regulations require that even after funds and support had been pledged, formal requests had to be made from the governments in need before the US government could do anything? the red cross and other NGO's can go and do as they please - they are after all Non-Governmental Organizations. international politics has a set of rules that are to be followed. We gripe when they aren't followed, we can't rightly gripe when they are.

So we keep the ships in Japan waiting for the phone lines to be restore to the Maldives? Or we put the standard first response equipment on the nearest ships and get those ships moving. Nine countries and not one requested help? You are dreaming. No you are inventing for the sake of argument. You saw the satellite photos. Do you wait for your neighbor to finally learn his house is on fire before you prepare to help him save his house? Ten days is too late for any help. And yet Lookout123 says the USS Kitty Hawk should stay in Japan. Do nothing. Be happy. It was only 100,000 lives. Too few to expedite any help.

This is a direct question of George Jr as a leader. He had those satellite pictures. Lookout123 says he must wait to be invited, then take days to get ships to the scene. This is the moral response. This is what a world leader does? Or this is what a leader does when in denial.

This is Friday - six days after the Tsunami. Today the US Navy is finally sending two battlegroups with supplies headed for the disaster. So they waited to load what was needed? No. Today a Marine General has finally been dispatched to determine what is required. Today - six days later. Let us look back at what those who support the 'moral' president said. Ships cannot leave until they know what to bring? So why are the ships leaving without information from that Marine General? The ships are leaving today because the 'moral' president finally decided yesterday to respond to the disaster. The navy could have been moving in but hours. It took days for the brain in a 'moral' president to make a decision.

This is not just a discussion about the American response to a disaster. The pathetic $35 million pledged by this mental midget president when even small France pledged $57milllion. Small Britian pledged $97 million. Tiny Sweden pledged something well in excess of $100 million. And yet the moral president raised his pathetic $15million offer to $35million when shamed by international reaction to his MBA cost control mentality. Wow. What a man! What a leader! Not an emotional expression. These are facts stated with mockery that this president has earned.

This is also a post in the face of Lookout123 who would have been responsible if he kept his religious extremist mouth shut. No. His president was rightly criticized. Morality as defined by extremist religous rhetoric was under attack. So the 'moral' Lookout123 had to post insults at anyone who would expose George Jr for the crappy leader he is. Lookout123. A better response would be to keep quite and hope we forget how pathetic a leader Goerge Jr has again proven himself.

Again, one is encouraged to look at the satellite photos that George Jr would have seen in his Presidential Daily Briefing on Sunday. Asia's Deadly Waves . Click on the first row "Photos: Impact" . Click on the second row "Before and After".

A PDB warning of the WTC attack that George Jr could not bother to read. By now, you would think the mental midget president had learned to read his memos. Learned what a leader is suppose to do. It would have been easy. No text. Just pictures. Will he now say there was nothing actionable in those photos?

George Jr could not even bother to respond to the Tsunami disaster until yesterday. Today the navy is finally leaving with supplies that could have already been there (and were deperately needed) two days ago.

Pragmatic leaders would never be so anti-American. Responsible leaders would have taken the lead last Sunday. But Goerge Jr is the type of leader that religous extremists love - such as another 'moral' president - Richard Nixon. At least Richard Nixon was enough of a 'moral' man to take the leadership role. Take charge and start moving before everyone else. George Jr finally decided on Thursday that a disaster had occured only after shamed into it by international condemnation.

Go ahead Lookout123. Defend this world standard of crappy leader. This is god's chosen president. Last night Powell got on Nightline to "try to defend" this president's response. He could not because this crap president still had no physical response to a disaster five days ago. Powell was left to hang as George Stephanopolouis showed country after country whose response exceeded the American response. The only thing Powell could say was that the American response would increase. So what? The most critical time that aid is required was many days ago - in the first hours and first days. The American president could not even be bothered to view satellite photos? Ahhh but he is a 'moral' man. Fine. He prays while people were dying. This is a man that Lookout123 respects.

ABC News showed a six year old boy who was probably going to die. Just as things looked grim, foreign medical aid arrived to save the boy's life. That was days ago. Today, the American response finally got started? Good thing that six year old did not need 'morality' to save his life. Yes, a 'moral' president needs time to find those satellite photos on his crowded desk. Go ahead Lookout123. Use that too as an excuse. Defend this 'moral' president.

Is the $350 million that the US is now sending enough, TW?

Did they mention the C130s with stuff, tw?

So the 'moral' Lookout123 had to post insults

um, ok.

of Lookout123 who would have been responsible if he kept his religious extremist mouth shut.

No wonder religious extremists always make bad leaders

what exactly have i posted here that defines me as a religious extremist? because i state that i am a christian? ok, i hold those beliefs. at no time have i stated that you must conform to my way of thinking or condemned any cellarite who believes differently. how do my christian beliefs make me an extremist? by your standard is Elspode an extremist? we know a bit about what he believes. Wolf? Brianna? any of the others who at one time or another stated something that they believe in? i have stated very clearly that i believe one's religion is a matter of personal faith. i have my faith, you have yours. what about my faith defines me as an extremist?

tw, you want to say that i insult you but you are the one that lashes out in a personal manner. you label people without thought as to what the person says. you put words into my mouth without citing where i have said it. you paint me as a bush sycophant, ignoring the many times that i have come out and stated that i think he is a flawed man who is not the best choice for an american president. but because i did believe he was the better choice between him and kerry, i must be a delusional idiot, right?

i'm done debating the US response to the tsunami's with you because you refuse to look at the wider picture, instead focusing on short term commitments and off the cuff pledges of support, just as you only focus on the first 7 minutes after the planes hit the towers. do you believe that the US will only commit $35million total? or is it possible that we will have some long term commitment to help rebuild? do you think that those who plan and execute relief efforts may see a bigger picture and work within that framework?

let me ask you, tw - have you ever participated in a relief project? have you ever seen, first hand, what happens when you drop US troops in for a humanitarian effort? or do you get all your information from print and video?

i am sure that some mistakes were made and the response could have been better, but that is the nature of everything. it is always possible to do better. i never stated that everything was done perfectly. i only questioned the instantaneous bush bashing without any real alternative action plans. but you are obsessed with $35million. what dollar amount would have been appropriate? what should it have been spent on that first day? how many lives would extra money have saved? the reality is that most of the death happened in minutes. the coming days and weeks are important for the survivors and the relief effort is underway. many lives were lost, many lives will be saved.

not every world event needs to be turned into a political bashing. grow up. or give us another long, recycled "bush bad" "lookout123 stupid" post, i don't really care. :rant:

Where's my peanut, tw?

wolf wrote:

Is the $350 million that the US is now sending enough, TW?

Wolf - even $350 million completely misses the point. Does curing a symtpom therefore cure the disease?

A mental midget president demonstrates cheap and pathetic leadership when America is lead by Christian extremists. Leader is a misnomer since this president could only follow after properly mocked and condemned by the world. People are dying for 5 days before the mental midget president could even consider any real aid program. George Jr more than anyone else should have known the scope of this disaster - if he read his PDBs. Even Indonesia did not know for days how bad things really were. Again, you saw those satellite photographs. Photos said this is big and bad. The president, at minimum, could have called Indonesia to help them learn how bad things were. This president could not even bother considering aid. Presidential travel costs more than the $15 million that George Jr pledged. That is aid for 150,000 dead and 5 million hungry and homeless? Yes if you are a moral Christian extremist. After all, they are only Buddists and Muslims. Give me a better reason for this Christian extremist's pathetic response.

A reporter from the Christian Science Monitor says everything is wiped out for up to 3 kilometers inland. Nurdin Muhammed and two fellow construction workers walked 100 miles from their construction project in Calang (a larger town of 400 where only about 20 survived) to get home. They saw no living people for 100 miles and just dead bodies everywhere. They could smell the dead bodies whereever they slept. From today's Washington Post If anyone survived, they died long before George Jr ever decided maybe to provide aid. $350 million tells us nothing useful. This is about the mental midget president and his actions as a leader. To ask if $350 million is enough is to insult the integrity of mankind. That $350 million only says the entire world first had to mock and insult both America and this righteous president. The US is so uncaring as to only offer a paltry $350million after international condemnation. We give many time more to Israel - a developed nation - every year. We spend that raindrop in less than 1 week in Iraq. But the Tsunami region is not on George Jr's list of countries to be saved - the axis of evil?

We are talkiing about 'moral' leaders - the type of Christian extremists that Lookout123 represents. Now a mental midget leader is angry that the world would criticize him? He should be publically apologizing for his pathetic response. Instead he is so righteous as to be angry. Classic religious extremist response.

So where is Jeb Bush? Lets see. We must learn more before sending aid? We will send Colin Powell and Jeb Bush. But lets not undermine Jeb's New Year's party. Jeb will not leave for many days. No hurry. Be happy. The US will send the 'expert' Jeb Bush to see what is needed. Those dying people must survive for another week.

The queston is this. How 'moral' are American Christian extremists? Not the $350 million paid in response to international black mail. Notice how even Lookout123 would first criticize the Arab world response before admitting the 'morality' of this president. Christian extremists must be publically vilified before they will even admit a disaster has occured? Oh. Those dead are Buddists and Muslims. Clearly they had no value. Is this erroneous logic? It does explain the George Jr response and Lookout123's defense of the mental midget.

lookout123 wrote:

what exactly have i posted here that defines me as a religious extremist? because i state that i am a christian?

Your openly support the Christian values of a president so 'evil' as to not even bother helping as hundreds of thousands were dying. A truly honest, religious, and humane Lookout123 would have been complaining days ago about America's response. Lookout123 - you post as a religious extremist. You don't up front condemn the president for not doing his job. It again puts you right back in the category of Christian extremist - supporter of a mental midget but god's chosen president.

The facts are blunt and obvious. Only a Christian extremist could deny them. The president had those satellite photographs. He more than anyone else should have known the first day the size of this disaster. As a leader, he should have been leading a world response. And yet he just sat there for 5 days until literally the entire world described him what his is. What was he doing for five days? Praying? An honest Lookout123 would have joined me in criticising the president - who should be aplogizing to the world for his pathetic response. Lookout123 did not and will not. Meanwhile more good people died.

Who is the better religious person. I who stand up for the downtrodden - or Lookout123 who makes decisions based upon his religious extremist political agenda. Yes, Lookout123, Christian extremists who remain quiet - who don't publically condemn this presidential response - should be admitting they are agents of the devil. Instead you defend this president? How Christian extremist of you.

The most important time are first hours and first days. The US response? Next week - days after being requested to do so - Jeb Bush will go learn what they need. They needed it 7 days ago. The president knew that - or should have. We did nothing. Why do you defend such incompetance? One big mistake was made. As massive relief abilities sat waiting to respond, the president did nothing for five days. It took public condemnation to get him off his ass. Where is Lookout123? Defending this unaction. Shame on Lookout123.

What could a good president do? Go to the microphones Sunday to tell report the size of this disaster. You saw the satellite photos he had. It was known from those satellite photos alone that this was big, needed responses in hours, and needed the entire world to respond. Where was American leadership? Sitting on what on his ranch in TX.

The six year old kid was expected to die. Then medical assistance appeared. He is now expected to survive. Did the mental midget president cause this to happen? Of course not. The mental midget president made no effort even to get anyone else to send aid to that six year old. The president stifled the entire American response for 5 days. The president who is suppose to be a leader did not one leadership task to save thousands of lives. He did nothing - and Lookout123 defends him.

One more tw - I am not defending the prez on this - but it turns out there is one person who was even more out of touch on this one... Kofi Annan.

Annan was on skiing holiday in Wyoming and did not return until today and this is why we have been seeing "B-team" Jan Egeland in front of the cameras all this time.

Skiing holiday, is that not indefensible? Can't the holiday wait a month?

So given that Mr Annan's entire job is dealing with international woes, as opposed to Mr Bush whose job is operating only one of them, do you now agree that Mr Annan is incompetent and must go?

Undertoad wrote:

One more tw - I am not defending the prez on this - but it turns out there is one person who was even more out of touch on this one... Kofi Annan.

Correctly noted. If George Jr has not taken the crown for most incompetent world leader, then I was going to criticize Kofi. However in defenses of Kofi and many other world leaders, the size and scope of this disaster was mostly unknown to most of the world for many days. Indonesia had no idea what had happened to its western most proviences. Whole military camps (ie that Washington Post article) had been completely wiped out. It takes virutally all day to get a plane out there. And yet those with sophisticated satellite imagry and extensive seismic analysis equipment knew very quickly how large this disaster was. It was up to them to sound the alert. And yet George Jr just sat on his ass.

And so the question is what did Kofi know and when did he know it. There is blame to go around. And the UN still does not have anything approaching a fast reaction organization - which is why the UN is so dependent on things like NATO. Those who blindly hate the UN will stifle any effort to get into the UN a fast reaction ability. And yet here is an example for that need. How slow is the UN General Secretary in learning of these events - or did he just delay?

Who's job is it to assess the possibility of another quake/wave wiping out the first responders? :confused:

Incident command's ... even so, it is harder than hell to keep first responders from doing their job.

That contributed to the loss of firefighters on 9/11 ... they kept climbing up, even when it was pretty clear that there wasn't anything for them to do up there, just in case there was.

Even though I'm somewhat familiar with things like incident command, I was always surprised that they set up the command post in the lobby of building. I guess that's something that's common for working a high-rise fire, but it always seemed unusual to me.

My comment. CNN sucks! I just looked at cnn a few minutes ago. DR. Grupa was on the island of Sumarta & all he reports is about Inda. Is it bebause he might be fom there?
In the 70s I worked in Northern Sumarta gas fields. Boy the people there had shit. Now nothing. The former goverments stole enough to make Marcos blush.
Might help if CNN would update their photos every 4 or 5 days :smack: Sorry forgot this was a weekend.
Some people are going to get rich from this! IMHO

i swear tw is actually dr bronner

An honest Lookout123 would have joined me in criticising the president - who should be aplogizing to the world for his pathetic response.

You don't up front condemn the president for not doing his job. It again puts you right back in the category of Christian extremist - supporter of a mental midget but god's chosen president.

ok, i'm a little slow, so let me make sure i understand this correctly. anyone who doesn't agree with tw and happens to be a christian, is automatically an extremist? :eyebrow:

ok, hypothetically speaking here. if a cellarite who happened to be an atheist strongly disagreed with you on this issue, would they be classified as a christian extremist? or some other kind of extremist? or would you just grant them the right to disagree with you and let it go at that?

Who is the better religious person. I who stand up for the downtrodden - or Lookout123 who makes decisions based upon his religious extremist political agenda.

i don't claim to be a religious person and certainly not a better religious person. i have my faith. good luck with yours. again, don't see how that makes me an extremist.

i'm not sure i understand your arguments here tw... unless you are just making ridiculous inflamatory accusations in some strangely insecure quest to display mental superiority. that i do understand. i saw that quite a bit before i left the corporate world.

lumberjim wrote:

i swear tw is actually dr bronner

You hush! He may be crazy, but he makes great soap.

Dilute! Dilute! Dilute! Okay!

You know....for how much TW hates emotion, his posts are certainly filled with it.

OnyxCougar wrote:

You know....for how much TW hates emotion, his posts are certainly filled with it.

It's emotion when your wrong. When your right it's called passion. :D

lookout123 wrote:

ok, i'm a little slow, so let me make sure i understand this correctly. anyone who doesn't agree with tw and happens to be a christian, is automatically an extremist?

Lookout123. An honest and Christian man would have immediately condemned the president for sitting on his ass. But a Christian extremist has a political agenda. A mental midget president can do no wrong. He is the 'moral' president. 'Moral' as in let people die because they are Muslim, Buddist, or Hindu. Clearly those people who never received immediate help must have deserved their deaths. Was it god's will that the president stifled the American response for five days?

If Lookout123 was logical, he would have addressed that problem. Instead the mental midget president can do no wrong. The only way one can come to that conclusion is to be a Christian extremist supporter.

Lookout123 - you don't like these facts? Then tell us that George Jr screwed up big time. That people died because he did nothing for five days. You won't, will you.

There is management where the people work for the boss. Then there is management where the boss works for the people. The first is called a dictatorship. Only the boss knows when the roof is leaking. This is the George Jr administration. The second is when the roof gets fixed because the boss has empowered the little people to solve problems.

America had the world's most powerful force of little people in the Tsunami region ready to deploy within days. But instead we have management of the first kind. Thousands had to die while the boss decided for five days that a disaster had occurred. America had to be publically humilated before George Jr would make a decision. Classic example of management - and mismanagement.

People died because there was an earthquake and a big wave hit the places they were living and vacationing.

None of these places that we are discussing are teeny weeny islands with zero resources.

Only the coastal areas were directly affected.

These places all have their own Relief Agencies and systems.

We are helping. We are not in charge.

By the way, did you say anything yet about the Muslims sending the Jews home?

wolf wrote:

People died because there was an earthquake and a big wave hit the places they were living and vacationing.

None of these places that we are discussing are teeny weeny islands with zero resources.

Only the coastal areas were directly affected.

And virtually the entire civilization in most of these places is in the first miles from the beach. What do chopper pilots from the Abe Lincoln report? Everything wiped out for three miles inland. In many places, that is the entire civilization for that large island. Again look at the satellite photos for the capital of Aesch provience. What good are Relief Agencies that were also victims? Even the entire military detachment assigned to the capital was wiped out. You tell me how much civilization remains on those islands to provide relief.

The interior minister says it best. First they had no idea how large the disaster. Then as they learned, they paniced. Only recently have they been able to assemble a conherent response. They deperately needed outside help in organizing a response. So little remained to provide assistance. Even building foundations were wiped out.

We are helping. We are not in charge.

We are only helping because the world humiliated George Jr.

By the way, did you say anything yet about the Muslims sending the Jews home?

I don't know anything about your story. I did hear a report of Israelis who arrived only to perform forensic work and do body searching. Best they be sent home. There is no place for people who cannot distribute the emergency aid and start emergency construction. If these were the Jews you refer, then good. Send them home. Indonesia has no time to identify any victims. Indonesia is literally bulldozing piles of bodies into trenches. No time to ID anyone. Tell them to come back instead with a plane load of disaster relief workers. How dare they play games of victim ID. There is no time for that in Indonesia. Bodies must be buried as fast as they can be found.

I don't know anything about your story.

You don't read my replies to your threads?

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?p=138700#post138700

Victim identification is not a game. It's a necessity. Getting the bodies into the ground, or cremated, is also a necessity ... bodies rot fast in the heat, and become a major health problem in and of themselves.

Undertoad wrote:

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?p=138700#post138700

Did not see (nor hear) that BBC article Sri Lanka rejects Israel rescuers But it only proves how much 'evil' (as defined by Onyxcougar) is created by those who worship pagan religions. A topic for another discussion.

I had only heard about that rescue-and-recovery team that clearly was not welcome in Indonesia for obvious reasons - called pragmatism.

This should be good.

How do I define evil?

wolf wrote:

Victim identification is not a game. It's a necessity. Getting the bodies into the ground, or cremated, is also a necessity ... bodies rot fast in the heat, and become a major health problem in and of themselves.

Any effort wasted to do vicim identification in Indonesia is nothing more than a game played at the risk of the living. There is no time to ID anyone.

In Thailand, they are taking photos, taking DMA samples, and then disposing of those western bodies. As they must. They have time to do ID. They had very little damage and death by comparision. Indonesia has no time for the game of ID. Identification would be a game played with the lives of those who survived.

OnyxCougar wrote:

How do I define evil?

You prefer to view things in terms of good and evil rather than in terms of perspectives. With perspectives, then 'good and evil' are religious and irrelevant concepts. Anything can be both good and evil depending on the perspective. Good and evil assumes the absurd such as "god is on our side". But then with different perspectives, god is on everyone's side. So where is the evil? If everyone is only good, then why the war and all that dead? But again, a topic that belongs back in that other thread.

tw wrote:

You prefer to view things in terms of good and evil rather than in terms of perspectives. With perspectives, then 'good and evil' are religious and irrelevant concepts. Anything can be both good and evil depending on the perspective. Good and evil assumes the absurd such as "god is on our side". But then with different perspectives, god is on everyone's side. So where is the evil? If everyone is only good, then why the war and all that dead? But again, a topic that belongs back in that other thread.

No, I don't. I made a post in the good and evil thread about good and evil, but that doesn't mean I only see things in good and evil.

Of course everything is a matter of perspective.

Do not try to put words in my mouth (or on my fingers) or thoughts in my head. You don't know me, so don't speak for me.

you did ask him to tell you, oc.

How do I define evil?

tw wrote:

But it only proves how much 'evil' (as defined by Onyxcougar) is created by those who worship pagan religions. A topic for another discussion.

I am really not seeing your point here. People of the Book (Jews, Christians, Moselms) are not pagans. Evil exists irrespective of religion.

We were talking about relief for victims of a disaster here, weren't we?

A web site I ran across recently had a really good take on the tsunami situation. The article came from The Enlightened Caveman and also has plenty of other good articles as well.

Tsunami Disaster - Spheres of Self-Interest

This tsunami will likely prove to be the most protracted natural disaster in recent history. The aftershocks, after they've ceased being geological, will become immunilogical, which means this thing isn't going to be over for a while. This is truly devastating, on so many levels that it isn't even fully comprehensible yet, at least not for me. I tried to read up on the tragedy but kept having to stop. I'm not ready to spend the next couple of hours sobbing. But as I felt my eyes welling up, I began to wonder what it was exactly that was making me so sad.

As much as I'd like to say that it was pure compassion for the dead and their families, it wasn't. Yes, I feel awful for them. But it was only when I imagined myself in the shoes of a survivor who'd lost his or her whole family that my emotional systems became uncontrollable. This realization was instantly discomforting. Am I a monster? How can I be so callous? Those were my initial thoughts, but then I took a step back. If I am being honest, then recognizing this reality should not be a source of guilt, and it should not lead to any sort of self-loathing. It is yet another indication of our human heritage, which means we're best served if we understand it. Then, maybe, we'll have the knowledge to decide how to feel and, more importantly, what to do.

So what if I ask the following question: am I a heartless anomaly in an otherwise compassionate America? If I exercise a little critical rationalism, I find that there are basically three possible answers - either I am, I am not, or we don't have enough evidence to say. Now to the evidence. I'm looking for the kind that disproves alternatives, since I am not intellectually arrogant enough to suppose that I can ever really prove anything. That said, I think there are two approaches to exploring this question - one is theoretical and one is empirical. First to the theory.

The emotional infrastructure of the brain evolved to motivate early humans to do things that would aid in their survival. Our emotions are, therefore, the tools of our genes, and our genes are all about self-interest. In caveman days, being able to envision the pain and anguish of a devastating event, such as the loss of a child or mate, was essential to keeping a conscious focus on doing the things that would avoid those kinds of situations. Conversely, becoming emotionally invested in biologically far removed situations could easily have become unacceptably distracting. Remember - life in those days was tough - lapses in attention were often fatal. Mother Nature, then as now, exerted her influence indiscriminately. But back then, her scope was wider - it included wild animals, poisonous plants, regularly-occuring weather events (droughts, freezes, etc.), and diseases. On top of that, early humans had to competitively contend with each othe for limited food, shelter, and water. This means that the sphere of self-interest had (and still has) a definite limit, and it is reasonable to suppose that the line for those of us in North America does not overlap with the shere of devastation emanating from Asian waters. So, in this case, it would seem that my inability to fully feel the pain of countless tsunami victims is not out of the ordinary (despite the fact that many would refuse to admit it). But this is conjecture based upon evolutionary theory.

On the empirical side, in terms of common experience, I think there's a limit to how strongly we respond to differing tragedies. Furthermore, I think there's a social understanding of where those limits lie. If someone in my family is in a serious car accident, it is fully expected that I will be distraught with concern and worry. However, it would be truly surprising if I showed the same concern for some tsunami victims that I've never met. Indeed, I'd have a hard time justifying staying home from work because of my grief. Far from being seen as heartless, my emotional detachment isn't remarkable at all. So where does that leave us?

As with most things, it's hard to feel very sure about our conclusions. We always have to be wary of the unknown but relevant. However, in deciding whether I am wrong to internalize the disaster in Asia as I do, I feel safe in saying that I am not. But, ultimately, that is not the point.

How I feel, honestly, has nothing to do with my rational consideration of the situation. Indeed, were I in a powerful position, my detachment would be significantly preferred to having to bottle up gut-wrenching emotions in order to stay focused on the tasks at hand. The bottom line is that the situation far away is horrifying. I don't have to be able to feel their pain to know that they need my help. I know who I am, and I know that, were it not for the rationality that has been culturally installed in my head, I might not care at all. But I do, and that's really what matters. So here's my first rational suggestion.

Since America is quite clearly the best at solving big problems, I think we need to take the funding that Bush has dedicated to the tragedy and invest much of it domestically in companies that can deliver the goods and services most in need. We should use our military resources to create air and seaports, and then engage Fedex and UPS in massive shipping operations. Then we get our pharmaceutical companies and healthcare payor/providers (such as Kaiser Permanente) involved in addressing the exploding health problems. From there, we have an endless list of suppliers of food, water, building materials, and infrastructure components (such as telecommunications, electricity, and plumbing) from which to choose. As my personal sphere of influence has rationally been extended to include America at large, I think we can find a win win situation here, whereby the disaster victims get what they need in the fastest, most efficient way possible, and we don't have to stand by and watch every American dollar buy only twenty cents worth of relief. Does that make me a bad guy?

...I think we can find a win win situation here, whereby the disaster victims get what they need in the fastest, most efficient way possible, and we don't have to stand by and watch every American dollar buy only twenty cents worth of relief.

So you mean Halliburton is disqualified from this effort. :eyebrow:

tw wrote:

Did not see (nor hear) that BBC article Sri Lanka rejects Israel rescuers But it only proves how much 'evil' (as defined by Onyxcougar) is created by those who worship pagan religions. A topic for another discussion.

I had only heard about that rescue-and-recovery team that clearly was not welcome in Indonesia for obvious reasons - called pragmatism.

Israel's army had planned to send staff to set up field hospitals, including internal medicine and paediatric clinics, an Israeli army spokesman said.

I wouldn't call turning away doctors, especially for children, pragmatic. The recovery team just mentioned ID'ing equipment and body bags. It might have been as simple as DNA testing equipment, which would not have delayed burial.

OnyxCougar wrote:

No, I don't. I made a post in the good and evil thread about good and evil, but that doesn't mean I only see things in good and evil.

Of course everything is a matter of perspective.

Do not try to put words in my mouth (or on my fingers) or thoughts in my head. You don't know me, so don't speak for me.

Now I am completely confused. Either 'good and evil' exists or it does not. If it does, then how can the 'evil' also claim god is on their side? After all, 'good vs evil' means god has taken sides.

Ok, you don't always see things in 'good or evil'. However you do see things - some things - in 'good vs evil'. How can you do this when 'evil' always has an alternative perspective? IOW to see evil, one must always deny the other's perspective. And that other perspective says, "god is on our side".

Second, why are you taking insult? I assume you are taking offense at something but I see no reason why. Where is this need for an apology? There is no reason to be insulted in any discussion of facts.

tw wrote:

Lookout123. An honest and Christian man would have immediately condemned the president for sitting on his ass. But a Christian extremist has a political agenda.../snip/

If Lookout123 was logical, he would have addressed that problem.../snip/

Lookout123 - you don't like these facts? Then tell us that George Jr screwed up big time...

ok, so you didn't really answer me last time, are you saying that i am a christian extremist merely because i disagree with you? by that token, why don't you label Wolf as a pagan extremist, or UT as an atheist extremist? is it because those don't seem as inflamatory? or should i really feel ashamed that you have called me out as a person with a christ centered faith?

you claim that i am illogical, yet you are the one that is name calling just because someone disagrees with your view of events. how logical is that? how rational and free of emotional overtones are your arguments? do you think your posts are bitchslapping me around? i believe i have seen you post in other threads that real men post without emotion or malice, they use only logic which sets them apart from boys. i don't know if that is true or not, but i do know that your posts are far from being emotion free.

so last shot here, tw. are you saying that i am a christian extremist because i disagree with you, or do you have evidence of me condemning others for not sharing my beliefs? it's got to be one or the other.

tw wrote:

Now I am completely confused. Either 'good and evil' exists or it does not. If it does, then how can the 'evil' also claim god is on their side? After all, 'good vs evil' means god has taken sides.

Backing up, are we?

OK, good and evil are concepts that are strictly a matter of perspective. Let me give you an example:

A Fundamentalist Christian would say that an actual sacrifice of a living being to God is evil, based on New Testament law. (This belief is open to a bunch of argument that I won't get into here, so please, masses, don't jump all over this.) They would say that some deeds, like helping people and being kind are "good".

Now a Satanist might believe that sacrificing a goat to their god is good, and that doing what other people think are good things is evil. (I don't know, I have no clue about what Satanists believe, so cut me some slack here.)

So you see, TW, good and evil DO exist, but it's ALL a matter of perspective.

Ok, you don't always see things in 'good or evil'. However you do see things - some things - in 'good vs evil'. How can you do this when 'evil' always has an alternative perspective? IOW to see evil, one must always deny the other's perspective. And that other perspective says, "god is on our side".

Perspective, as we're using it here, is a synonym for "morals". My morals may be different from yours, because I may have a different perspective than you.

It's a "good" thing to try to look at all situations from different points of view... I think it helps you to make better choices. But I have to make choices based upon my morals, my perspective.

Second, why are you taking insult? I assume you are taking offense at something but I see no reason why.

I'm taking insult because you are putting words in my mouth and attributing things I didn't say to me. That is an insult to me. It is offensive to me. It might not bother you, but try looking at it from my perspective.

Where is this need for an apology? There is no reason to be insulted in any discussion of facts.

Well, the fact is, I didn't say (or define) like you said I did. So the fact is, you lied about me. You may not see the need for an apology.

It's a matter of perspective.

Well, the fact is, I didn't say (or define) like you said I did. So the fact is, you lied about me. You may not see the need for an apology.

First we start with your last point. I posted as I understood your statements. Only a child would be insulted by that observation. An adult who is more concerned about knowledge, instead, welcomes the comment so that she can correct the misinterpretation. Again, no reason for apology because we are suppose to be adult here. You should be welcoming the oppurtunity to correct what you perceive is wrong. Instead you take a simplistic 'good verse evil' approach. Therefore you are insulted and demand an apology.

OnyxCougar wrote:

OK, good and evil are concepts that are strictly a matter of perspective. Let me give you an example:

A Fundamentalist Christian would say that an actual sacrifice of a living being to God is evil, based on New Testament law. (This belief is open to a bunch of argument that I won't get into here, so please, masses, don't jump all over this.) They would say that some deeds, like helping people and being kind are "good".

Now a Satanist might believe that sacrificing a goat to their god is good, and that doing what other people think are good things is evil. (I don't know, I have no clue about what Satanists believe, so cut me some slack here.)

OK. The best thing that could happen in the Balkan and in the Middle East was (is) for more people to die on the side that is suffering less casulties. Human sacrifices. That both was the Seribans and is the Israelis. Suddenly peace breaks out as a result. People suddenly will do anything necessary to have no such wars ever again.

Now you tell me. Am I Satanic or the best Christian you ever met? After all, the status quo and attempts to minimize death in both conditions has only resulted in more death and suffering from continued hatred. How to elimiinate your Satan? Human sacrifices. This is (unfortunately) a well proven lesson from history. I have advocated more death (in the short term) to cause less overall death and destruction (in the long term).

Am I Satanic or Christian? Am I good or evil? Or is there (again) no such thing as 'good verses evil'? Once we eliminate the religious parables about 'good and evil', then all that remains is different perspectives. You tell me? I have just advocated lessons from history - human sacrifice to cause more "good".

tw wrote:

First we start with your last point. I posted as I understood your statements. Only a child would be insulted by that observation. An adult who is more concerned about knowledge, instead, welcomes the comment so that she can correct the misinterpretation. Again, no reason for apology because we are suppose to be adult here. You should be welcoming the oppurtunity to correct what you perceive is wrong. Instead you take a simplistic 'good verse evil' approach. Therefore you are insulted and demand an apology.

Ah. We're supposed to be adults, yet to attribute things to me I did not say. In print, I believe this is called "libel". When I point out to you what you did, instead of simply apologizing and moving on, "Gee, I'm sorry Onyx, what I meant was..." you now infer I'm a child and shouldn't have been offended by your libelous remarks. Well unfortunetly, I'm human, TW. I have feelings, I'm not ashamed of them. I don't believe they make me any less mature. And I would like an apology.

OK. The best thing that could happen in the Balkan and in the Middle East was (is) for more people to die on the side that is suffering less casulties. Human sacrifices. That both was the Seribans and is the Israelis. Suddenly peace breaks out as a result. People suddenly will do anything necessary to have no such wars ever again.

I have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. Next?

Now you tell me. Am I Satanic or the best Christian you ever met?

First, I've never met you. Second, as far as I can tell you are neither. There are seldom very clear cut blacks and whites in the real world.

After all, the status quo and attempts to minimize death in both conditions has only resulted in more death and suffering from continued hatred.

And? Are you asking if hatred is evil? I'd say generally, yes.

How to elimiinate your Satan? Human sacrifices.

My Satan? WTF? DUDE...step away from the pipe....

This is (unfortunately) a well proven lesson from history. I have advocated more death (in the short term) to cause less overall death and destruction (in the long term).

Uh...ok....?

Am I Satanic or Christian? Am I good or evil?

I don't know. You tell me.

Or is there (again) no such thing as 'good verses evil'?

Of course there is.

Once we eliminate the religious parables about 'good and evil', then all that remains is different perspectives.

Without a religious basis, you tell me the definition of good and the definition of evil. Make sure you do not refer to any religious tenets.

You tell me? I have just advocated lessons from history - human sacrifice to cause more "good".

And what is your point? I stated in the previous post it's a matter of perspective? What are you droning on and on and on about? Why don't you answer lookouts post?

and by the way, tee...

This is (unfortunately) a well proven lesson from history. I have advocated more death (in the short term) to cause less overall death and destruction (in the long term).

Isn't that exactly what George W Bush advocated in Iraq? More death in the short term to cause less overall death and destruction in the long term (ie Saddam gassing, experimenting on, and torturing his own people)...

Careful. Starting to sound like an MBA....

OnyxCougar wrote:

Without a religious basis, you tell me the definition of good and the definition of evil. Make sure you do not refer to any religious tenets.

The problem with designing an ethical structure without religion is that people are too short-sighted to follow it. I mean why do you think eating beef is a hindu proscription?

Any form of Provisional Ethics(tm), which I'm in favor of, is going to take a lot of work and has to be subject to review and revision. That is the problem with religious ethics, no review or revision.

Everyone knows there is good and evil, they just can't agree how to sort things into one or the other. :biggrin:

Actually, I challenged him to do it because it's so hard to do. Most ideas of "good" and "evil" that pervade in ANY culture are usually based upon religious beliefs in that culture.

And this quote about the "rather secret" Diego Garcia....from CNN.com

HONOLULU, Hawaii (AP) -- Location and underwater topography helped protect the strategic U.S. military base on the remote island of Diego Garcia from the killer tsunami that raced across the Indian Ocean.

Pacific Fleet officials in Honolulu said Navy facilities and operations on the tiny British-governed atoll were not affected by the December 26 earthquake or the tsunami it caused. Ships stationed at the base have been sent to Southeast Asia to help the relief effort.

"Favorable ocean topography minimized the tsunami's impact on the atoll," the Navy said on its Web site for the base.

An air and naval refueling station that is home to about 4,000 U.S. personnel and support staff, Diego Garcia is the only U.S. military base in the Indian Ocean, with a deep, sheltered harbor to accommodate submarines and warships and a 2 1/4-mile long runway. During the 2003 Iraq war, B-2 stealth bombers flew missions from the base.

The atoll is in the Chagos Archipelago west of the Chagos Trench, a 400-mile-long underwater canyon that runs north and south and plunges to depths of more than 15,000 feet in some areas. The trench is one of the deepest regions of the Indian Ocean.

"The depth of the Chagos Trench and grade to the shores does not allow for tsunamis to build before passing the atoll," the Navy said. "The result of the earthquake was seen as a tidal surge estimated at 6 feet."

A tsunami is a movement of water extending deep below the surface, and a sloping sea floor would force huge amounts of water upward toward a shore.

In addition to the topography of the sea floor around the atoll, its location meant Diego Garcia wasn't in the direct path of the tsunami, said Gerard Fryer, a University of Hawaii geophysicist and an adviser to state civil defense.

Diego Garcia is nearly 2,000 miles from the epicenter of the magnitude 9.0 quake that caused the tsunami.

The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center in Hawaii notified the U.S. Pacific Command soon after the quake, said a spokeswoman for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Good and evil do exist regardless of religious leanings. My wife could testify to this the night I farted into one of her soft toys and gave it to her to cuddle up to in bed. And I don't believe in God!

Roosta wins the thread.

Roosta wrote:

Good and evil do exist regardless of...

I salute you sir!

I found this article today.

It seems to be the Islamic Equivalent of the Weekly World News classic "Satan's Face Seen in WTC Explosion" and "Satan's Face Seen in Killer Tornado.

I don't know about you, but I can't see how that even resembles the text in the inset picture. For all we know, it could say "underpants" in Norwegian!

True. I can't see the sacred squiggle either, but I am an infidel.

Perhaps Satan's Face is just that much more photgenic.

Oh, and it would say "underbukse," which you can just make out on the upper left of the image ... ;)

"Allah signed His name," Faizeen said. "He sent it as punishment. This comes from ignoring His laws."

"This is a terrible tragedy in Florida. And you know, as I've been reading and praying, we had a quite a flap the other day when we were talking about that gay pride day in Orlando and everybody laughed, but nevertheless, here's what I saw in the Bible. There are two things that I think are very significant. And what happens to these fires in Florida could be a prelude to some things that are going on all around the world." (Pat Robertson suggesting Florida wildfires were caused by gay day at Disney)

Christian and Islamic leaders should sit down and have a talk, someday. I bet they'd get along real well.

Kitsune wrote:

"Allah signed His name," Faizeen said. "He sent it as punishment. This comes from ignoring His laws."

...snip...

Christian and Islamic leaders should sit down and have a talk, someday. I bet they'd get along real well.

Funny you should mention that...

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june05/tsunami_1-07.html

MARGARET WARNER: Natural disasters often affect people and societies in ways that transcend the physical devastation. To explore that, we turn to British writer Simon Winchester author of "Krakatoa: The Day the World Exploded, August 27, 1883." This 2003 bestseller was about a catastrophic volcanic eruption close to the scene of the current disaster.

And, Mr. Winchester, welcome. Thanks, for joining us.

...blah, blah, blah...

Non-physical effects

MARGARET WARNER: And then what other effects did it have-- you outline some of these in your book-- beyond the physical devastation, beyond the deaths?

SIMON WINCHESTER: Well, the extraordinary thing that happened, specifically in Java and Sumatra, is that this event was immediately picked up by the religious leaders, who in those days were Muslims. The area was rapidly being converted from Hinduism to Islam. There were a lot of Arabs there who were priests or mullahs, and they said within a matter of days of the devastation, that this was clearly a sign from Allah-- Allah, who was annoyed, specifically angered by the fact that the Javanese and the Sumatrans were allowing themselves to be ruled by white, western, infidel Dutch imperialists.

"Rise up and kill them: is essentially what the mullahs said, and sure enough, within a matter of days, there was a degree of killing of Dutch soldiers and bureaucrats. Then the mullahs said, "No, no, no, don't do this in a piecemeal fashion, do it in an organized fashion." And sure enough over the next few years, careful planning went underway, triggered by Krakatoa, and five years later there was a massive rebellion, which was the beginning, one might say, of the end of Dutch rule in Java and Sumatra and the beginning of the creation of what is now the most populous Islamic state on Earth, Indonesia.

A similar U.S. natural disaster

MARGARET WARNER: Now, in a piece you wrote recently, you say this is not an isolated incident and in terms of having this sort of kind of profound social and psychological change from a natural disaster, and you point to one in the United States. Tell us about that.

SIMON WINCHESTER: Well, indeed, San Francisco. I've just finished researching and indeed writing a book which is coming out in October on the San Francisco earthquake of 1906, April 18. And oddly enough-- I mean, I didn't anticipate this when I started work-- this also had a religious impact. The big difference I think between San Francisco and Krakatoa on the one hand and what happened at Banda Aceh on the other, is that all these events were transmitted around the world very rapidly because the news of them was by electricity and the undersea cable and Morse Code and the Reuters news agency, these events were known about very, very rapidly indeed. So people around the world had the information, but they didn't have the understanding.

And so there was a worldwide sense of bewilderment, that terrible things had happened, but there was no rational explanation for them. And so people turned in large numbers to God as an explanation. They did so in Krakatoa, and equally they did so also in San Francisco. And specifically what happened in San Francisco is that there was a very, very small movement beginning in southern California of Pentecostalist Christians, people who spoke in tongues, who believed in revelations by way of signs from heaven. The first meeting of this little Pentecostalist church took place on the Sunday just before the San Francisco earthquake. Wednesday came the earthquake. The pastors in the church said this is evidently a sign from heaven, from God, that He is angered by the licentiousness, the wanton behavior of San Franciscans. The result of this was that the next Sunday, the church, which had only attracted a few hundred disciples before, was swamped with thousands upon thousands of people. And the American Pentecostalist movement was in a sense born out of the San Francisco earthquake and remains today one of the largest and most politically relevant Christian movements in America.