Who can tell me sth about the American Dream
Who can tell me something about the American Dream.?its origin,its symbol, etc.Where can I find some information or knowledge about it? Thanks in advance. ;)
*sniff* *sniff, sniff*
Smells like a school assignment to me. Try google and the research librarian of your local library.
Read John Steinbeck's "Of mice and men." It's a nice read.
Where the American Dream comes from is nearly impossible to answer - you'll have to figure that out on your own.
What is this, a 9th/10th grade assignment for U.S. history?
The American Dream is something Americans Dream about before they realise that a four-bed semi with a white picket fence and a pink twin-set for the wife doesn't bring you happiness.
What's a four-bed semi? I can honestly say that-as an American-I've never dreamed of a big rig.
A four-bedroomed semi-detached house. Sorry, that's more of an English Dream. I should have said a Big House.
I should have said a Big House.
With an in-ground pool? Now we're talkin'--! :D
The American dream is a quaint hang-over from the past when this was once the land of opportunity. People could believe that with hard work and a bit of luck they could better their position in life and that their children could get an education or enter into a skilled trade and become secure members of the middle class. We used to have a democracy that was responsive to the will of the people and manufacturing jobs that paid workers a decent wage. We were a nation of doers and producers with equal opportunity for all. Now we no longer produce anything but wars with other countries. Our jobs have hemorraged out to other countries thanks to te phenomenon of out-sourcing. Our so-called representatives on the state and national level respond to who-ever has the most money to give them, not the common voters. The American public is coming to understand this, and a smaller percentage of eligible voters participate in each major election that comes up. Public schools have deteriorated and the wealthy send their children to private schools where they can get a decent education. If you work hard, you may raise up to a manager's position in McDonald's, and maybe if you and your spouse both work at two jobs, you can buy a second hand car and a home in a trailor court. That's the reality of the American dream today.
Horatio Alger.
Yeah, right. :cool:
The American Dream does not come to those who fall asleep.
He came to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too cynical a forum to ask this question, but a provocative one it is.
The American Dream is a hangover from Ford Model-T, social contract days. The idea was that in a capitalist system, things are tough, but if you put forth the extra effort you can get ahead and eventually own your own house, car and little white dog, and use them as tools to aid you in raising a happy, healthy family with decent, law-abiding and satisfied children who will help to take car of you when you grow old. For a fair example of the American dream (from a Scottish perspective), try to take the sarcasm out of the opening monologue from the movie <i>Trainspotting</i>:
Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television. Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit crushing game shows, stuffing junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose a future. Choose life..But why would I want to do a thing like that?
That, my friend, is the reality of the American Dream. Where going a little further, doing a little more used to get you ahead, there's no way now, because the system demands so much of you that it's impossible to give that extra effort. You will most likely have rent to pay, or, if you're lucky, a mortgage, and paying that will require every ounce of force you have in you. And when you spend all of your life with one company, working 50 hour weeks, struggling, getting that promotion here and there and trying to carve yourself out a little niche in the world remember that there's someone in India with the same skills as you willing to work for half the money, and he will most likely end up with your job.
The American dream is a quaint hang-over from the past when this was once the land of opportunity. People could believe that with hard work and a bit of luck they could better their position in life and that their children could get an education or enter into a skilled trade and become secure members of the middle class.
Mari, what the hell are you talking about? There are many opportunities available in America today. we can argue about the causes all year long, but you are right, the public education system is a mess. but it isn't just rich people that pull their kids out of the system for alternatives.
Everyone has the opportunity to go to college in america. their are countless scholarships, grants, and loans available - and lets not forget about the GI bill. Their are still many jobs and skilled trades that don't require a college degree that pay very well. the middle class does still exist although the gap is widening between what many define as wealthy and the middle class. some of that is due to time. (you can look at it like a golf swing or a baseball swing. one degree of difference at the starting point can become a vast difference at greater distances. if money is the ball and the distance traveled is time it works out to be about the same due to the power of compounding and freedom to play a little more loosely).
We were a nation of doers and producers with equal opportunity for all.
we still are. we do and produce different things but that is due to technological advancement and globalisation. BTW, i don't like the fact that our industrial base is gone because i think it will eventually bite us in the ass if there is ever another large scale war. but the simple fact of the matter is that it isn't just america that is losing manufacturing jobs. it is a global phenomenon attributable to increases in productivity, technology, etc.
The American public is coming to understand this, and a smaller percentage of eligible voters participate in each major election that comes up.
you're right - many if not most of the politicians are self serving chumps. they get to keep their offices because too many people take the defeatist attitude that you can't change anything so why try. the ones who get out and vote are often the ones who throw their vote to the person promising to make their particular situation easier with new programs whether or not that will actually help the nation as a whole.
If you work hard, you may raise up to a manager's position in McDonald's, and maybe if you and your spouse both work at two jobs, you can buy a second hand car and a home in a trailor court.
BS. some people do have to work very hard and they will end up in a management position at McD's. good for them. they won't be wealthy, but they show up to work every day and contribute to a productive society. Are you aware that a Jack-N-The-Box manager starts at $35K/annual? That isn't too bad for a starting position that doesn't require a degree and has a distinct promotion track and good benefits. it may not be prestigious, but it is a necessary job, so don't disrespect the guy handing you your fries. He/she is working to support his family. and if it takes 2 people working 2 jobs to by a used car and a trailer - then they should probably seek some guidance about what they are doing wrong. but again, you are belittling the people that choose to live in mobile home parks. many do it not because they are downtrodden people, as you seem to think, but because it is a cost effective form of housing.
That's the reality of the American dream today.
No that is your perspective of the American dream today. Most people get up, go to work, come home and spend a little time with their families before bed and then rinse, lather, repeat. they don't sit around thinking their lives suck. everybody wishes they had a little more, but most people are generally pretty happy in their lives - at least the ones who don't fall into the trap of playing the victim.
the reality is the American dream was popularized and defined by the rags-tor-riches tale. those things did happen. those things still happen. Most people then and now didn't grow to be extremely wealthy. but everyone has the opportunity to take their shot at it. success in achieving goals will always depend on the same thing. A) having a goal B) working hard to achieve it C) lucky turns at the right time. you can still achieve your goals without C - but you might not be as wildly successful. good luck trying to achieve anything without ingredients A and B.
Mari - you are a highly educated individual with a lot of compassion for those around you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world.
With a two-year degree (and the State will pay for it!) you can start out making 50K--but you gotta be willing to wear the scrubs. You gotta be willing to work weekends and nights. You gotta be willing to put up with a lot of BS and you've gotta believe in the divinity of doctors----just kidding!
...just kidding about the divinity of doctors thing. Everything else stands.
Oh, and Mari--looks at the Saudi's--they don't PRODUCE anything--they've a natural, limited reserve of oil that is the end-all, be-all of their economy. That's IT. Nothing is "made in Saudi Arabia" and they do just fine, don't they? They lucked into an economy. Does that make them any less ambitious than anyone else? You tell me.
He came to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too cynical a forum to ask this question
That was a self-fulfilling statement if I ever saw one.
many do it not because they are downtrodden people, as you seem to think, but because it is a cost effective form of housing.
And people drive crappy old cars because they like the rust.
they get to keep their offices because too many people take the defeatist attitude that you can't change anything so why try.
Voting tweedle dum or tweedly dee this time? Nothing will change until fiat currency collapses under the weight of stupidly populist policies from both parties.
The middle class is dieing off the western world over, the money gap is widening and will only continue to, end of story.
The middle class is dieing off the western world over, the money gap is widening and will only continue to, end of story.
Hm. I wonder what side of the gap you will be on, Jag. I mean, most people like to think of themselves as at least able to support their families--even if they do live in those really tacky trailer parks...right? Have you ever had a friend who lived in a trailer park? I've gone to many in my professional life and I have a cousin who lives in one. They are amazingly regular-type people. Some really do live there by choice. Not everyone is a snob.
And people drive crappy old cars because they like the rust.
i drive older vehicles even though i have the ability to buy new and more upscale. i don't place my value in shiny new cars. the new smell goes away and then what do you have, but another used car.
and mobile homes? my parents and many like them sold their very nice stick-built homes to live in mobile homes because they are functional and free up a lot of money.
If you want a good look at how the American Dream of old is fading away read Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. Gives you a rude wake up call and a greta look into the lives of people who dream the American Dream but will never make that dream become a reality. Its a very sobering book.
Didin't like the author much, kind of a whiner/self rightous liberal.
You have to move to India, China, or Mexico if you want to live the American dream. But seriously though there's a good book on this subject. It was written in about 1979 but it's still very apt today.
It's called, "Restoring the American Dream" by Robert J. Ringer
There's a touch of difference between selling your nice house and spending your retirement moving around to living in a trailor park, let's be straight here, you're dodging and weaving to avoid the point. Given the choice, somewhere between the vast majority and nearly everyone would prefer to live in a house than a trailor park.
Brianna: Not entirely sure what your point is. I'm sure some are perfectly nice people, I don't see how that impacts on my argument either, nor my socioeconomic status, which could best be described as 'complicated'. I've been rich and I've been poor but it's a trend with statistical proof, not a snobby observation.
The "American Dream" is what you make it. it isn't the same for everyone. everyone dreams of a better life for themselves, some people help themselves to achieve it.
, nor my socioeconomic status, which could best be described as 'complicated'. I've been rich and I've been poor but it's a trend with statistical proof, not a snobby observation.
My limited understanding is that those who tend to romanticize the "poor" (however you define it) often have never dealt with them in any meaningful way. I don't know anything about you, save a few remarks you've made, but my myopic eyes were opened a tad after I started actually WORKING with the poor, sick and downtrodden. I've been in a few situations I wanted right out of...I'm not proud of that, but I found I could not be effective in those particular instances. Have you ever been to a home where there were dog feces and cockroaches all over the floor, countertop, bedspread, and cooking area? To my middle-class eyes those things were intolerable...to those who lived there it was normal. How to help? I wanted them to clean up and they thought I was a "college-educated" butt-insky sent by the State. What would you have done? (I realize I am off topic, sorry, but really, what would you do??? I had to scour myself every night to be sure I hadn't brought cockroach's into my home)---
I apologize, in advance, for my middle-class bullshit.
You are correct when you ask what this has to do with anything--I am muddling my meaning which is this: you kind of come off as a snob, Jag, whether you are one or not. The first credo in working with the poor, sick and downtrodden is to be as one of them. That has been my experience and I've been doing it for 20 years. They've not much patience for "idea's"--that's all I mean.
What's your point though? People live in squalour, seen plenty of the same in the 3rd world, not in the first but how does that relate to the growing gap between rich and poor? I didn't go into nursing or social services for a reason.
I didn't go into nursing or social services for a reason.
Amen!
it's a very tough gig. I don't know, Jag, but with your smarts and your travel and your opportunity...I just wish you could see what I have seen. How do you want to help? Or, maybe you already are? I don't know. i just find it easier, in myself, to talk rather than do. That may not be your way, but, sadly, it is the way of a lot of us. (talk instead of DO)
It's a trend, a massive economic change with as far reaching effects as many that have come before it, I can only ride waves as I see them, not make my own, at least for now . Bruce is right when he says I'm more worried about trends and movements than people, for now, I can't really do much but if I can get clued up enough about the mechanics behind the curtain, maybe one day.
Brianna, if one doesn't have the motivation to wipe the dog feces off the floors, beds and counters, that's not because they are poor. There's something else at work there. You don't need money to clean up piles of shit in your house.
Everyone has the opportunity to go to college in america. their are countless scholarships, grants, and loans available - and lets not forget about the GI bill.
Yeah right. Have you ever tried getting one of those scholarships or grants lately? Or even better, try paying off those student loans before you drop dead at age 80. In most most countries in Europe it costs much less to attend college, and is sometimes free. Not here. Yeah, you can go for the GI Bill, if you don't mind taking the chance that you'll get blown to bits in Iraq first.
BS. some people do have to work very hard and they will end up in a management position at McD's. good for them. they won't be wealthy, but they show up to work every day and contribute to a productive society. Are you aware that a Jack-N-The-Box manager starts at $35K/annual? That isn't too bad for a starting position that doesn't require a degree and has a distinct promotion track and good benefits. it may not be prestigious, but it is a necessary job, so don't disrespect the guy handing you your fries. He/she is working to support his family.
And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job. And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.
Mari - you are a highly educated individual with a lot of compassion for those around you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world.
No, I think she's fallen prey to the cult of reality. There is no such thing as the American Dream for many people without a certain level of education, or the intelligence to achieve that level of education.
If you want a good look at how the American Dream of old is fading away read Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. Gives you a rude wake up call and a greta look into the lives of people who dream the American Dream but will never make that dream become a reality. Its a very sobering book.
I agree--great book. Definitely worth the read.
Too true, Glatt. What I am saying is that it: (dog feces, cockroaches) have become normal to many. How to combat that? how to say, "well, your mother and father were pigs and not the norm and thank God we are here to help!" without causing a war? you've no IDEA how many people live like this!
And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job.
Jesus, stop projecting. Just because you think it's a shitty job doesn't mean everyone does. Perhaps he's grateful that he was given the opportunity to have a job at all instead of being born into a caste system where he was destined to live on the street no matter how hard he worked. When I worked food service, I was the only teenager in the place. Everyone else there were twenty-something and middle-aged guys supporting their families. Some were going to school, some were taking that franchise's management training courses, and some were happy where they were. One guy was officially retired, and worked there for the comeraderie and something to keep him busy. I was the brightest person in there by a LONG shot, but they were all hard workers and they were all happy.
And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.
That's right. They have to work hard for those things--they have to be willing to work for years to get their experience, they have to practice being polite if they have a temper, they have to do their best to learn from their managers. Intelligence is not a requirement to be successful--sincerity and hard work are.
People who don't believe in the American Dream are always native-born Americans, never immigrants. What a surprise.
Jesus, stop projecting. Just because you think it's a shitty job doesn't mean everyone does.....I was the brightest person in there by a LONG shot, but they were all hard workers and they were all happy.
Geez, relax. I am not putting anyone down. I worked fast food and various retail jobs all through highschool and college. I don't know what kind of Disneyland of a fast food place you were working at, but it's pretty hard for me to believe that "all" of your co-workers were "happy." I worked with people of all different ages, and almost none of them were satisfied working fast food jobs. The hours are long, the pay sucks and people are rude to you. We all worked there because we HAD TO--not because we wanted to.
Intelligence is not a requirement to be successful--sincerity and hard work are.
What a cliche. Are you saying someone with an IQ of 75 can be successful in the business world? How about someone who speaks no English? They might be sincere and hard-working, but I can pretty much guaratee you they're not going to be successful, at least not in the FINANCIAL sense of the word.
With a two-year degree (and the State will pay for it!) you can start out making 50K--but you gotta be willing to wear the scrubs. You gotta be willing to work weekends and nights. You gotta be willing to put up with a lot of BS and you've gotta believe in the divinity of doctors----just kidding!
...just kidding about the divinity of doctors thing. Everything else stands.
Wow! What's the program? I want to call up my voc-rehab counselor and see if it's something I might be able to do given my current limitations. Does the job command that much money for an inexperienced grad anywhere? Please give more details.
Mari - you are a highly educated individual with a lot of compassion for those around you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world..
OK, I'm calling you on that one, Lookout. First of all it is a non sequiter to reply to a statement that the quality of public education is going down in this country by saying that the person making this judgement has "fallen prey to the cult of victimhood." If you disagree with the things I wrote in my earlier post, simply say so and then give the facts to back up your opinion. The only people who feel that it's acceptable to make a condescending statement which turns a debate into one of personalities are politicians, and look at how much respect we have for all of THEM.
Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year. Meanwhile just outside the Bronx in Mount Vernon there is a public school where 97% of the students who attend are black. One out of ten of these students live in a homeless shelter. Visit that school's library and try to find books about or by Langston Hughes, the great black poet. Nor are there books about Rosa Parks, Josephine Baker, or Leontyne Price or any other famous black Americans. The newest encyclopedia in the library dates from 1991 and has the volumes "b" and "r" missing. There is no computer or card catalog in the library and almost all the books date from the 50's and 60's when the student body was mostly white. You want to tell me which child is going to score higher on his SAT's (if he even takes them)? The one from the private $26,000/yr school or the child who attended the one in Mount Vernon? These are FACTS* and have nothing to do with the "cult of victimhood."
Here's another fact: 44 MILLION Americans, eight out of ten of them in working families, are uninsured and cannot get even the most basic medical care from the "best system of medical care in the world." What has happened to the "American dream" for those 44 million Americans?
Fact: The gap between the rich and the poor in this country has become greater than at any time in the past 50 years. We have the worst inequality that way of ANY OTHER Western nation. The gap between the top 20% in income and the lower 20% has increased from 30 fold in 1960 to 75 fold today. Put this together with the steady dismanteling of public services like schools and health care and tuition assistance for higher education and this gap becomes an obscenity. Is this the realizatiion of the "American dream"?
I look around my country today and I sometimes feel something very close to despair. We are loosing something very precious and something that we should all cherish deeply - democracy and the "great American experiment" in order to satisfy the desires of the corporate world and a wealthy minority for ever more money and ever higher profits, be they deserved or not.
I am a realist, Lookout. Fate has forced me to open my eyes and see things that I never noticed back in my snug little middle class world while you are still singing yourself to sleep at night with the fairy tales the power brokers want us all to believe. I am a victim only in the sense that anyone who recieves an unlucky blow from fate is a victim. But I will be god damned if I allow my voice to be silenced by some foolish comment by a member of the complacent middle class I once belonged to. I'll see you in hell first before I ever roll over with my paws up and whine that I'm a helpless victim. Nice try.
*The facts I cite in this post can be found here:
http://www.inequality.org/moyerstranscript.pdfYeah right. Have you ever tried getting one of those scholarships or grants lately? Or even better, try paying off those student loans before you drop dead at age 80.
yeah, i did. i did get a couple of small scholarship offers, but i didn't commit myself enough to earn the large ones. payoff student loans? yep, i've done that too. i just made my last payment last month. oh, yeah i had the GI BIll too. I thought a college education was important enough to risk active duty so i enlisted. like a lot of people who are there right now and are happy with their decision.
And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job.
and throw in a dash of arrogance to make it just right... damn garnet don't you realize that everyone's job seems shitty to someone? sure he has to deal with rude condescending customers who think his choice in careers sucks, but he probably feels pretty good knowing he made an honest buck. i've got friends that make half what i do but make fun of my shitty job. they couldn't imagine dealing with the people i do, the hours i do, and being stuck at a desk for days at a time. some of them think physical labor jobs suck but my dad and his friends are pretty satisfied that they toiled in the factory and provided for their families. my point is - who do you think you are to declare another person's job or life shitty?
And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.
damn them for wanting someone qualified for the job. it doesn't take that long to get the job when a person decides to make it a career. you can earn your way into the position faster by skipping the 4 years of college and working your way up there often times.
There is no such thing as the American Dream for many people without a certain level of education, or the intelligence to achieve that level of education.
everyone has access to the "dream" (i hate the term - i think access to opportunity is better) not everyone chooses to pursue it. and you can't measure one person's success against another's. not everyone has the same priorities.
The hours are long, the pay sucks and people are rude to you. We all worked there because we HAD TO--not because we wanted to.
welcome to the real world. we all do what we do because we have to. you can either snivel and whine about it or accept the shape of the world and make the most of it. your attitude and outlook in life rest entirely in your hands. and success is more dependent upon those 2 things than maybe anything else.
What a cliche. Are you saying someone with an IQ of 75 can be successful in the business world?
sure, i saw forrest gump. but seriously - not everyone has the same abilities so not everyone will have the same career. that doesn't make the landscaper who may be a little slower or not know english and less successful in life than the local banker, unless you only define success in terms of $$$. i have met more people who make $40,000 who are genuinely happy than i have people who make $200,000 - and i meet a lot of both of them. each has to deal with the difficulties unique to their positions.
the american dream is about finding happiness and fulfillment. the journey is as important as the destination and will be different for everyone.
Who can tell me something about the American Dream.?its origin,its symbol, etc.Where can I find some information or knowledge about it? Thanks in advance. ;)
It's become a nightmare. :D
Mari--if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English and you're hired!! Witness the import of foreign nurses...hell, yes you can get in on it! I'll bet someone with two master's degrees can manage a little ol' associates. Even WITH CO2 poisoning. Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat.
OK, I'm calling you on that one, Lookout. First of all it is a non sequiter to reply to a statement that the quality of public education is going down in this country by saying that the person making this judgement has "fallen prey to the cult of victimhood."
I am a realist, Lookout. Fate has forced me to open my eyes and see things that I never noticed back in my snug little middle class world while you are still singing yourself to sleep at night with the fairy tales the power brokers want us all to believe. I am a victim only in the sense that anyone who recieves an unlucky blow from fate is a victim. But I will be god damned if I allow my voice to be silenced by some foolish comment by a member of the complacent middle class I once belonged to. I'll see you in hell first before I ever roll over with my paws up and whine that I'm a helpless victim. Nice try.
OK Mari, let's take a deep breath on this one. i went back and reread my post. i didn't type anything that i believe is condescending but if you believe that was my intention - i apologize. i didn't insult you - i merely responded to your points. and if you reread - i agree with you that the public education system sucks.
and if you want to convince yourself that i live in some sheltered little world immune to the dark scary world you live in i don't know what else to tell you. you have no clue on my life experiences so you may want to be careful on that, it hasn't been all roses and butterfly kisses, but it has been interesting so i wouldn't trade it for the world.
I made no attempt to silence your voice - i welcome any viewpoint in a discussion. disagreeing with you does not equate to silencing you.
as far as seeing me in hell? thanks but i'll pass, i don't think we believe in the same hell anyway.
anyway - the difference between a realists and the victimized is that a realist sees the pitfalls and injustices of the world but marches on anyway, realizing that though the world affects them, the results may be outside of their control, their actions are entirely within their control.
a victim sees the same injustices and wanders through life pointing out how things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is.
Mari--if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English and you're hired!! Witness the import of foreign nurses...hell, yes you can get in on it! I'll bet someone with two master's degrees can manage a little ol' associates. Even WITH CO2 poisoning. Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat.
Er.... that's CO poisoning, CO2 wouldn't hurt a fly. We breathe it out as a by product of the respitory process after every breath we take in. Minor point, but if you are somehow affiliated with the medical end of things, you should be aware of this. I know several RN's and the training they undergo requires a MINIMUM of 4 years. They are required to pass classes in chemistry, biology, and mathematics which require a brain to go along with the heart beat. Not a single one of them started out making $50,000 a year either. What are the sources for your statements?
[QUOTE=marichiko]Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year.
Mari--I went to fancy private schools--it didn't cost my parents 26,000/year. Of course, I'm not in NYC either. My rent isn't anywhere near NYC rents, either--you are comparing apples to oranges if you compare NYC to the other parts of the country. It's difficult for some people, especially well-educated people, to take responsibility for their lives. They keep thinking someone else should be doing for them.
Too bad.
OK Mari, let's take a deep breath on this one. i went back and reread my post. i didn't type anything that i believe is condescending but if you believe that was my intention - i apologize. i didn't insult you - i merely responded to your points. and if you reread - i agree with you that the public education system sucks.
I made no attempt to silence your voice - i welcome any viewpoint in a discussion. disagreeing with you does not equate to silencing you.
anyway - the difference between a realists and the victimized is that a realist sees the pitfalls and injustices of the world but marches on anyway, realizing that though the world affects them, the results may be outside of their control, their actions are entirely within their control.
a victim sees the same injustices and wanders through life pointing out how things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is.
It is condescending to state "you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world." Calling someone a "victim" is a fighting word in my part of the world, and I bet it is in yours, as well. When you say someone is playing out a part in a "cult of victimhood" and that negativity is holding them down, you invalidate that person's statements as mere trivia - artifacts of an emotional mentality, rather than as observations made by the intellect. In this manner, you call upon others to dismiss my words and, in effect, silence me.
I realize that your overt intent was not to be mean spirited. However, you should realize the implications of your final sentences.
There is a very fine line to draw between realism and victimhood. I think that there are more instances than we care to believe when the reality IS that "things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is."
In my opinion the victim makes this statement and then lies down and lets the tanks roll over him. The fighter may make this statement, but stands up anyway and at least maybe shoots out one tank before being rolled over by the rest. There are some truths that we would all rather not face and it is easier to deny them rather than face them; harder to realize them and give in to despair; and most difficult of all to stand up to them knowing that defeat is almost a certainty, but fighting on despite this.
Our country is in a state of crisis and a few people are finally beginning to awaken to this fact. I am pretty cynical about the possibility of turning things around, but I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.
you can become an Rn with a 2 year associates degree, or, pass a test that the state requires if you are from another country. Sorry about the typo on the CO/Co2 thing--see, you are smarter than I am already! and you're brain damaged! what do you know!~! YOU CAN be a nurse!!
Really, HONEY, you don't have to have a bachelor's to be an Rn. Your friends are fooling you!
Um-you drive, don't you, Mari? Doesn't that take some critical thinking?
My sources for salary: myself. Starting out, recent measly 2 year grad, I made 50K. You didn't mention the working weekends and nights, though, did you? Yes, I worked weekends and nights. Probably not to your liking, doing that. Some people make sacrifices. How long have you paid into SSDI?
I thought a college education was important enough to risk active duty so i enlisted.
That's you. You're pro-war, too. If you had a kid just graduate from high school and wanted to go to college, would you encourage him or her to enlist to get funding NOW? Calll me crazy, but I personally would not risk my LIFE to get a college education. It's Iraq now--who knows where George will have soldiers dying in a couple years from now.
..... but he probably feels pretty good knowing he made an honest buck.
Are you psychic? How do you know that all these people "feel good" about their jobs?
my point is - who do you think you are to declare another person's job or life shitty?
You should go back and read my posts before you make reactionary, accusatory statements like that. Like I stated, I worked fast food and retail jobs all through college and, in my opinion, those jobs were shitty. Most of the people I worked with hated their jobs too. Why would I put someone down for working these jobs when I'VE WORKED THESE SAME JOBS MYSELF? No sense insulting myself when I've got wonderful people like you on this forum to do it for me.
welcome to the real world.
Sweetie, I'm quite familiar with the real world, thank you. I've worked full time since I was 16. Nobody ever handed me anything.
the american dream is about finding happiness and fulfillment. the journey is as important as the destination and will be different for everyone.
Your platitudes are starting to become a little tedious....
I kind of agree with lookout, different people are happy with different things but I do think he/you are being a tad idealistic.
Call me crazy but I don't think people should have to risk getting shrapnel to the face to get a college degree, the Economist loves to bitch about funded Unis in places like the UK and Australia but crap, it's better than the US system. Not perfect but better.
[QUOTE=marichiko]Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year.
Mari--I went to fancy private schools--it didn't cost my parents 26,000/year. Of course, I'm not in NYC either. My rent isn't anywhere near NYC rents, either--you are comparing apples to oranges if you compare NYC to the other parts of the country. It's difficult for some people, especially well-educated people, to take responsibility for their lives. They keep thinking someone else should be doing for them.
Too bad.
"don't bother. I'm psychic." Good.
I think the American Dream these days requires a lot of hard work, making carefully-considered choices and catching a break.
*thinks* Yeah...I'll leave it at that.
"don't bother. I'm psychic." Good.
Then I accept your apology. You're welcome.
But isn't that what it's ALWAYS required??
Then I accept your apology. You're welcome.
Well, at least you're witty if not psychic.
What I am saying is that it: (dog feces, cockroaches) have become normal to many. How to combat that?
YOU don’t, it’s not YOUR problem, if you don’t want it to be. And it's nothing to do with the "American Dream". The AD is about having the opportunity to do it for yourself.
There is no such thing as the American Dream for many people without a certain level of education, or the intelligence to achieve that level of education.
Here's another fact: 44 MILLION Americans, eight out of ten of them in working families, are uninsured and cannot get even the most basic medical care from the "best system of medical care in the world." What has happened to the "American dream" for those 44 million Americans?
This is not supposed to be a socialist country. There never was a guarantee, only an opportunity for those that could measure up. I’ve no obligation to take care of you, nor you, me.
the Economist loves to bitch about funded Unis in places like the UK and Australia but crap, it's better than the US system. Not perfect but better.
Not everybody can qualify or afford to go to Harvard, but we have an extensive system of state universities and community colleges, that are affordable and give you a good basic education. More importantly they give you that sheepskin.
We used to have a democracy that was responsive to the will of the people and manufacturing jobs that paid workers a decent wage
We used to have citizens that took part in the political system and wouldn’t reelect Marion Barry.
They were involved in their community and didn’t care who got kicked off the island this week.
They used to go over their kids homework, talk to their kids teachers, and go to PTA meetings.
They used to care about their community and their country, they shopped at local merchants and bought American made products.
But now,....It’s me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, gimme, gimme, gimme, more, more, more.
More than they earned, more than they need, more than they deserve. :mad:
But isn't that what it's ALWAYS required??
Probably...but folks tend to overlook the latter two.
This is not supposed to be a socialist country. There never was a guarantee, only an opportunity for those that could measure up. I’ve no obligation to take care of you, nor you, me.
No, it's not supposed to be a socialist country. This thread, however is about "The American Dream", which on many accounts seems to be a thing of the past. In our parents' generation, a young man of average intelligence with just a high school diploma could get a job in a factory, move up if he wanted, support his family and retire from that same job when he was 55. That, I would say, is what most of us see as the "American Dream." Was that socialism? Today, the factory jobs are in China, the average person changes jobs every few years and many of us probably won't get to retire until we're 70 (if then). Yes, it's still up to each individual to make it, and you're not responsible for anyone but yourself. I would just say that the "American Dream" has lost a significant amount of its luster.
In our parents' generation, a young man of average intelligence with just a high school diploma could get a job in a factory, move up if he wanted, support his family and retire from that same job when he was 55. That, I would say, is what most of us see as the "American Dream." Was that socialism? Today, the factory jobs are in China, the average person changes jobs every few years and many of us probably won't get to retire until we're 70 (if then).
Ok wait. First of all, your statistics are way off. From the
Employee Benefit Research Institute: "According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the period 1950–1955, the median age of retirement was 66.9 for men and 67.7 for women. By the period 1990–1995, it was 62.7 for men and 62.6 for women. The median retirement age is projected in to be 61.7 for men and 61.2 for women during 2000–2005."
Second of all, I agree that the average person nowadays does change jobs much more frequently than in the past. But that doesn't mean that it's more difficult to be successful or support your family in that type of economy. It just requires a different mindset. I have numerous friends of average intelligence who graduated high school 6-10 years ago and did not go to college. The ones who worked hard are very successful today. One of them has moved her way up from cashier to HR Administrator, in 6 years at the same grocery store. Her husband approached a small construction company and worked for a year for very little money on the understanding that he wanted to learn everything there was to learn--then he left to start his own contracting company, and now the two of them live in a house worth more than $300K. Neither one of them went to college, and neither one of them is a genius by any means. But they worked hard and took opportunities where they were.
As an afterthought, garnet, I have a question: Why is it that a modern manager of a Jack-in-the-Box must drink himself into a stupor over the suckiness of his job, but a factory worker 50 years ago must have been doing a jig over the opportunity to grind steel all day?
[QUOTE=Clodfobble
Ok wait. First of all, your statistics are way off. From the
Employee Benefit Research Institute: "According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the period 1950–1955, the median age of retirement was 66.9 for men and 67.7 for women. By the period 1990–1995, it was 62.7 for men and 62.6 for women. The median retirement age is projected in to be 61.7 for men and 61.2 for women during 2000–2005."
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how old you are, but my parents did not retire in 1950-55....
Ok, I'll give you that I'm 5-6 years off. I might add that for the years you are quoting people get something called
Social Security when they retire. My particular demographic will not retire for another 25-30 years. With the large number of baby boomers retiring shortly, will I ever see any of the money I've put into the system? Probably not. Will I most likely have to work longer than age 62 (the average age of today's retireee) because of this? yes, probably.
I’ve no obligation to take care of you, nor you, me...
They used to care about their community and their country...
But now,....It’s me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, gimme, gimme, gimme, more, more, more.
Bruce, I understand that you strongly disagree with my political outlook, but with the greatest of respect, don't you see the extreme dissonance in your attitude? Either you give a damn or you don't.
If you wanted to create a strong country, one where it was possible to dream dreams and with enough hard work and courage, make them possible, where would you begin? Wouldn't it be with the PEOPLE of that country? A country's people need to be educated enough to make intelligent decisions for themselves and for their communities and their nation. They need to be healthy so they can lead productive, useful lives. They need to share a sense of purpose and unity which will allow them to pull forward together, rather than pull apart into fragments alone. They need to share a sense of values about justice and dignity and honor and self respect.
Like it or not, we are all inter-connected and we all depend upon one another. This is not socialism, this is how the human animal evolved - to be a part of a society and not a lone wolf howling in the wilderness. It is also pragmatic. No man can be all things for himself alone.
If I am childless, why should I have to pay taxes that will help put my neighbor's children through school? If for no other reason then my own good, that's why. The neighbor's child will grow into the adult who gives me medical care or repairs my car or becomes the minister at the church I attend or repairs the lines which carry electricity in my home. What a large return on such a relatively small investment! What a bargain, I'll take it! If you don't want it, go live in a shack somewhere without electricity and do without medical treatment and in your solitude curse God, and die. But don't force me to bear the burden of your foolish choices.
Why should I pay taxes to insure that we have universal health care in this country? If for no other reason than my own good, that's why. The man whose medical bills my taxes help pay will be rehabilitated after a stroke or a heart attack and he will go back to his job paving the roads in my town or fixing my roof or discovering a cure for an illness that I have come down with myself. That man's year's of training and education won't be tossed aside because he has no doctor to treat him and without medical care, he can't work. What a great return on my investment! What a bargain, I'll take it! If you don't want it, go live in your house with no plumbing on a rutted out dirt road and die slowly of your own chronic disease. But don't force the consequences of your own poor choices on me.
What segment of our society gives the least and takes the most? It is not the poor of our country, but the wealthy with their endless tax breaks and insider deals and their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzeling cars and their exclusive gated communities. THESE are the Americans who cry, "More, more, more," and "me, me, me." The black school child who wants a decent education is not the force which is bringing America to its knees and taking tax dollars which give no return from your pocket. The one who is robbing you blind is the corporation with its off shore banking practices, its tax dodges that it got via its very own paid congressman, and the jobs it outsourced away from your community and off to some third world country. The man who needs insulin for his diabetes is not your enemy, but the man whose income puts him in the top 5% of the nation's most wealthy and pays fewer taxes than you do is.
Why is it that so many conservatives who shout their patriotism so loudly, seem to hate the very people who make up the country whose flag they wave? I believe in the American people. We have a strong work ethic, we go to church and school, and we are by and by large honest. The people of this country have been decieved into believing that their fellow Americans are the enemy. Nothing could be further from the truth and yet, nothing else could better serve to further the ends of those few at the top who do not cry "More", but merely seize it from our unresisting hands instead.
As an afterthought, garnet, I have a question: Why is it that a modern manager of a Jack-in-the-Box must drink himself into a stupor over the suckiness of his job, but a factory worker 50 years ago must have been doing a jig over the opportunity to grind steel all day?
What happened to you? Such hostility.
The man who needs insulin for his diabetes is not your enemy, but the man whose income puts him in the top 5% of the nation's most wealthy and pays fewer taxes than you do is.
Amen! Thank you.
Will I most likely have to work longer than age 62 (the average age of today's retireee) because of this? yes, probably.
not if you are doing what you are supposed to do and saving and investing for your retirement years. the people who didn't save and invest rarely get a comfortable retirement at any age, during any time period.
so on that note, what are
you doing to prepare for
your retirement?
What happened to you? Such hostility.
Um, nothing happened to me. I didn't intend for that phrase to be read with any hostility at all. :confused: I guess I should use more emoticons. But it's a serious question--why do you see the modern grunt worker as "miserable" but the grunt worker from the past was satisfied? I'd be curious to see an inflation-adjusted comparison of their earnings, I bet they weren't too disparate.
What segment of our society gives the least and takes the most? It is not the poor of our country, but the wealthy with their endless tax breaks and insider deals and their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzeling cars and their exclusive gated communities.
what dollar amount did the people you are ranting against here pay into the tax coffers last year?
this is nothing but a rant against people who have what you don't. when there is talk of a tax system overhaul such as a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more - who lobbies against it. it isn't the wealthy. it is the blue collar folks who are being advised by their labor organizations and their local politicians who are being paid by lobbiests for cpa and attorney groups that rally against it.
not if you are doing what you are supposed to do and saving and investing for your retirement years. the people who didn't save and invest rarely get a comfortable retirement at any age, during any time period.
so on that note, what are you doing to prepare for your retirement?
I put money from every paycheck into a 401k, just like I should. Is that the answer you're looking for? The money I put into Social Secuity will be spent by the time I retire. I'm not relying on it, trust me.
You seem to ignore the fact that people retiring today have their savings PLUS social security. My mom has a bit of savings, and gets something like $1,200 a month in SS. She's not hurting. Calculate that $1,200 into 2035 dollars and see how much that is that people my age won't be getting.
Calculate that $1,200 into 2035 dollars and see how much that is that people my age won't be getting.
and that is ok. social security wasn't meant to last forever and it wasn't meant to pay as many people as it does for as long as it does.
they are going to have to raise the ss eligibility age to even give it a chance at surviving but good luck to the politician who puts his name on that bill.
I put money from every paycheck into a 401k, just like I should. Is that the answer you're looking for?
believe it or not - not every comment is intended to draw you into a fight. it was simply a question. your 401K and your Roth are the cornerstones of your retirement. if you are not taking full advantage of these options you are really missing the boat. yes, i understand that budget constraints do exist. but if at all possible everyone should fund these 2 items at least, even if only $25 monthly goes into the Roth to start. planning for your retirement is more about habit than it is dollar amounts.
What happened to you? Such hostility.
Um, nothing happened to me. I didn't intend for that phrase to be read with any hostility at all. :confused: I guess I should use more emoticons. But it's a serious question--why do you see the modern grunt worker as "miserable" but the grunt worker from the past was satisfied? I'd be curious to see an inflation-adjusted comparison of their earnings, I bet they weren't too disparate.
The grunt worker from the past is satisfied because he worked for a company that worked for him. I'm flipping through an old sociology text, and the phrase is Social Contract...it's what Henry Ford meant when he reasoned that his workers would buy his automobiles if he made sure they could afford them. It's what Ken Lay violated when he raped so many people of their retirement savings. It's the idea that someone can start working for a company in the mail room at 16 years old, stick with that same company all his life, and retire comfortably from a good position. It's a faith that the people you work for are looking out for your best interests, and not just how to squeeze every last drop of productivity out of you while paying you just enough to make sure that you can't get a better deal elsewhere. It's common fucking decency amongst employers, and it disappeared somewhere in the 80s.
What happened to you? Such hostility.
Um, nothing happened to me. I didn't intend for that phrase to be read with any hostility at all. :confused: I guess I should use more emoticons. But it's a serious question--why do you see the modern grunt worker as "miserable" but the grunt worker from the past was satisfied? I'd be curious to see an inflation-adjusted comparison of their earnings, I bet they weren't too disparate.
My question to you is what makes you think that the grunt worker of the past was delirious with joy at the beginning of every new 10 hour work day? Ever read
The Jungle by Upton Sinclair?
when there is talk of a tax system overhaul such as a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more - who lobbies against it. it isn't the wealthy.
Nobody ever talks about a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more. When a flat tax is talked about (in politics), it is pushed by the obscenely wealthy, like Forbes, because the way it would be formulated would drastically decrease their tax liability, and they wouldn't even have to cheat with accountants or donate to charity to do it.
oh.my God.I just want to learn sth more about the American Dream cause I am not an American ,and I often met this word when I read books on American culture or background.I didn't expect to bring about a debate or argument among you on such a topic.Anyway,thank you all very much,I like the atmosphere here
oh.my God.I just want to learn sth more about the American Dream cause I am not an American ,and I often met this word when I read books on American culture or background.I didn't expect to bring about a debate or argument among you on such a topic.Anyway,thank you all very much,I like the atmosphere here
Hey, no problem. This group will debate anything at the drop of a hat. I imagine it must have been something of a surprise for a new comer, though. We all thought you were just some school kid trying to get us to write a homework assignment for him. Stick around. You should read us go at it when we REALLY get worked up. ;)
what dollar amount did the people you are ranting against here pay into the tax coffers last year?
this is nothing but a rant against people who have what you don't. when there is talk of a tax system overhaul such as a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more - who lobbies against it. it isn't the wealthy. it is the blue collar folks who are being advised by their labor organizations and their local politicians who are being paid by lobbiests for cpa and attorney groups that rally against it.
I can't give you the particular statistic you asked for, but I can give you the following:
Over the past three years, special interest groups pushed through Congress $2 trillion dollars in tax cuts – almost all tilted towards the wealthiest people in the country. These include:
Cuts in taxes on the largest incomes.
Cuts in taxes on investment income.
And cuts in taxes on huge inheritances.
More than half of the benefits are going to the wealthiest one percent.
Last May Congress approved new tax credits for children. Not for poor
children, however. But for families earning as much as $309,000 a
year—families that already enjoy significant benefits from earlier tax cuts.
My source for the above is the same one I cited earlier.
Your assertion that the blue collar worker has opposed attempts to set a flat rate tax in the past, if true, only goes to prove my point that we have all allowed ourselves to become brainwashed to all common sense and the reality of what's really happening in this country.
The crucial paradox of the American Dream is that it is relative.
One person may see a nice riverside cottage with pigs and chickens as their Dream.
The next may see a three story Malibu mansion with a wife and six girlfriends as theirs.
The point is, you will never achieve it for as long as you possess the mentality of achievement. Let me tell you something. Your achievements mean nothing, because one day, you're going to die. Your cars and your clothes and your millions mean nothing.
I hope you realise this before you go chasing a dream that can never be caught. It keeps you working hard. That's why it was created. So go back to your job and work hard, earn some money, live your life. But don't do it for yourself in the sense that it will add to your accumulation of experience/power/wealth/knowledge. Do it because you need money to eat and to feed your family.
My question to you is what makes you think that the grunt worker of the past was delirious with joy at the beginning of every new 10 hour work day? Ever read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair?
I don't, mari, that's my whole point. That was the dichotomy that garnet seemed to be espousing. I think all grunt workers of all eras are sometimes unsatisfied with their jobs, but I believe that both then and today they have the opportunity to make a better life for themselves if they want to take it. I don't believe the American Dream is dead.
Echo, the main idea behind the American Dream is that everyone has an opportunity to succeed, regardless of who their parents were or how little they started out with.
clodfobble has summarized it all very well.
National health care?
Most health care is required because of our own stupidity not some plague. Most of the people in the hospital were not blindsided by a disease out of the blue, but stupid accidents and in many cases preventable conditions. The people that Brianna mentioned, with roaches and crap all over the house, will probably get sick, eventually. Same for the germaphobics that try to sterilize their world. Don't force me to bear the burden of your foolish choices.
The one who is robbing you blind is the corporation with its off shore banking practices, its tax dodges that it got via its very own paid congressman, and the jobs it outsourced away from your community and off to some third world country.
We have a strong work ethic, we go to church and school, and we are by and by large honest. The people of this country have been decieved into believing that their fellow Americans are the enemy. Nothing could be further from the truth and yet, nothing else could better serve to further the ends of those few at the top who do not cry "More", but merely seize it from our unresisting hands instead.
These robber barons are robbing you blind? STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM!!
You piss and moan about how they make everything overseas, but you keep buying the stuff. By “you” I mean everybody.
If you’re not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
They do this because you let them, but you’re so damned wrapped up in buying more shit you don’t need and will be paying the trash man to haul away shortly, you don’t see what you’re doing to the future of this country.
I’m not talking about someday, I’m talking about the next 10 years, 5 years, it’s already started and YOU are the only one that can turn this around.
YOU can convince them in the marketplace, at the interface between the robber baron and yourself.....the cash register.
You don’t have to deprive yourself or your family, just shop smarter. And yes, you can still buy everything you NEED, made right here, with very few exceptions.
The robber barons are like kin folk, slap half of them up side the head and the rest will pay attention. :smack:
These robber barons are robbing you blind? STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM!!
You piss and moan about how they make everything overseas, but you keep buying the stuff. By “you” I mean everybody.
If you’re not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
They do this because you let them, but you’re so damned wrapped up in buying more shit you don’t need and will be paying the trash man to haul away shortly, you don’t see what you’re doing to the future of this country.
I agree with you. But have you tried to go to even places like all-American Wal-Mart and find stuff you need that ISN'T made in China, Bangladesh or Mexico? I'm not someone who's into shopping or having lots of "stuff" just for the sake of it. Yes, you can buy products made only in America if you have copius amounts of time to go track them down. I've tried, and it's not that easy.
If you wanted to create a strong country, one where it was possible to dream dreams and with enough hard work and courage, make them possible, where would you begin? Wouldn't it be with the PEOPLE of that country?
People who live in their own filth and object when people tell them this is not a good thing are not something it is possible to work with.
Like it or not, we are all inter-connected and we all depend upon one another.
Actually, we are not. There is a lot of interdependence, but it is by no means universal.
If I am childless, why should I have to pay taxes that will help put my neighbor's children through school? If for no other reason then my own good, that's why. The neighbor's child will grow into the adult who gives me medical care or repairs my car or becomes the minister at the church I attend or repairs the lines which carry electricity in my home.
And he'll demand to be paid then, so why should you pay him now? If he becomes a doctor, are you going to tell him "My taxes put your ungrateful ass through school, so I'm not paying my medical bill".
What a large return on such a relatively small investment!
Easy for you to say, since you aren't paying it. For me, it's about $3000/year, and it only goes up.
What segment of our society gives the least and takes the most? It is not the poor of our country, but the wealthy with their endless tax breaks and insider deals and their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzeling cars and their exclusive gated communities.
The poor don't pay income taxes, so its no surprise they have fewer tax breaks. Of course, there IS the Earned Income Tax Credit, which they take. As for the wealthy, they pay for their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzling cars (built, BTW, by much poorer people) and their exclusive gated communities; they aren't taking from me by doing so.
All-American WalMart? They're public enemy #1!!!!!!! They have done more to contribute to the decline in America, than all foreign companies combined. They are a bigger boon to China than rice. They've put more Americans out of work than automation.
Read
this or
this or
this or
This one to see how they operate.
When you're done, I can give you a hundred more. All-American, feh. :rolleyes:
All-American WalMart? They're public enemy #1!!!!!!!
I personally think Wal-Mart sucks, too (for many reasons besides the fact that they have cost so many Americans their jobs--but that's a whole other thread!). But you know, people are going to say "hey, that's capitalism" and continue to shop there. When is it going to get to the point where say enough is enough? Interesting articles, by the way.
But you know, people are going to say "hey, that's capitalism" and continue to shop there.
Even without the political overtones...capitalism or no...people are gonna shop there because it's convenient, cheap and you can usually find, if not exactly what you need, something close to what you need. Despite the inherent evil of Walmart, it does fill a need that a lot of people want.
One stop on the way home from work and you can pick up the photos, grab that new CD, get that SpongeBob Tshirt the kid is harping for, a new watch because you got a raise, a couple of frozen pizzas, some milk, some fruit because you ate the last banana this morning...etc...etc...
People who live in their own filth and object when people tell them this is not a good thing are not something it is possible to work with.
.
??????? To which group do you refer and under what circumstances and what reputable source do you have to back such a statement? Sounds like thinly veiled prejudice to me.
Actually, we are not. There is a lot of interdependence, but it is by no means universal..
Give me a single example of the person who lives in America today as an island, complete in himself. Did you flip on a light switch at any time in the past 24 hours? If so then you are interconnected with the engineer who runs the computer at the power company, making sure the lines don't become over-loaded. You are interconnected with the utilities worker who strung the electric wiring on the poles to your home or office. You are interconnected with the logger who cut down the trees to make those poles. You are interconnected with the factory worker who made the cables the electricity runs through. If your local power plant is run by coal, you are interconnected with the miner who got that coal from the ground, the train engineer who drove the coal train on the railroad tracks to your city. You are interconnected to the men who laid down those tracks. This is only a single example. Russoto, you seem like a smart guy. Stop and think. We ALL "interbe."
And he'll demand to be paid then, so why should you pay him now? If he becomes a doctor, are you going to tell him "My taxes put your ungrateful ass through school, so I'm not paying my medical bill"
That one's a no-brainer. I pay taxes for education so that down the road there WILL be doctors and other professionals and trained craftsman who I can look up in the yellow pages and call for whatever it is that I need and pay them a fair price for the work they do for me. Were there no schools, the yellow pages would be blank.
Easy for you to say, since you aren't paying it. For me, it's about $3000/year, and it only goes up.
What makes you think I'm not paying it? At the moment I'm paying rent, and you'd better believe that the landlord passes along the cost of property taxes to his renters. And in the past I owned my own home which I paid property taxes on. If you don't like paying $3,000 a year, why don't you go buy a less expensive house in a poorer neighborhood? Its a free country. No one is forcing you to live where properrty taxes are that high. Everyone seems to forget that I worked for close to 30 years of my life and paid income taxes just like everybody else. The money I now get is MY OWN, paid into the system over a life time of work.
The poor don't pay income taxes, so its no surprise they have fewer tax breaks. Of course, there IS the Earned Income Tax Credit, which they take. As for the wealthy, they pay for their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzling cars (built, BTW, by much poorer people) and their exclusive gated communities; they aren't taking from me by doing so.
Oh, really? Low income people everywhere will be delighted to hear this. Perhaps you should make this astonishing news of government largesse more widely known to the world. A single person who earned over $7,000 a year was required to pay income tax in 2003. The Federal guidelines for the poverty level is anyone living on less than $9,310.00 a year. That means that people living in poverty are required taxes, so what's this "the poor don't pay taxes"? This display of ignorance on your part is apalling. And I presume that you noblely take no advantage of any possible tax breaks yourself since you seem to begrudge that person living below the poverty line taking advantage of the earned income tax credit.
Are you aware that a Jack-N-The-Box manager starts at $35K/annual?
Guess I'm in the wrong field. I have 13 years of experience as office manager for three different multimillion dollar construction firms, and I make $36k. If I'd started at Jack in the Box 13 years ago, I'd probably be pulling down 100K by now, huh?
All-American WalMart? They're public enemy #1!!!!!!! They have done more to contribute to the decline in America, than all foreign companies combined. :rolleyes:
I don't shop at Walmart because everyone sues them (women, Latin American's) so I figure they are evil.
I don't shop there
but I really, really want to!Guess I'm in the wrong field. I have 13 years of experience as office manager for three different multimillion dollar construction firms, and I make $36k. If I'd started at Jack in the Box 13 years ago, I'd probably be pulling down 100K by now, huh?
i've got a couple of clients in the position who are getting in excess of $65K. so no you probably wouldn't be getting $100, unless you went the career path of district management, etc. elspode, at any point in the last 13 years has another opportunity with the potential for growth or more money come across your path? like i said before if money was your definition of success you probably would have chased the other opportunities. hopefully, money isn't your life's motivation.
Oh, really? Low income people everywhere will be delighted to hear this. Perhaps you should make this astonishing news of government largesse more widely known to the world. A single person who earned over $7,000 a year was required to pay income tax in 2003. The Federal guidelines for the poverty level is anyone living on less than $9,310.00 a year. That means that people living in poverty are required taxes, so what's this "the poor don't pay taxes"?
wait now. in a thread earlier this year, several cellarites stepped up and said they paid $0 taxes last year.
I don't shop at Walmart because everyone sues them (women, Latin American's) so I figure they are evil.
I don't shop there but I really, really want to!
Heh! For some things, I have to (sometimes, clothes..depending on what it is). I need cost friendly items. So I really am not caring about the whole politics of Walmart. I am going to shop where I can afford to shop...period. I don't have the energy to go looking around for places to shop and I am
certainly not going out of my way (i.e. across town, etc.) just to shop.
:thumbsdn:
wait now. in a thread earlier this year, several cellarites stepped up and said they paid $0 taxes last year.
Sure, and not a single one of them did so because, bottom line, they were living on incomes of less than $7,000.00 a year. Some of them may have used some tricks with smoke and mirrors to make it look that way to the Feds, but if they were gut level honest, they'd admit they made more than $583.00/month. Let's get real here.
Those who evaded paying any income tax at all, are quite frankly parasites. Let's call a spade a spade. They drove on interstates they paid nothing to maintain. They were protected by soldiers whose salary they refused to pay, even as these men were laying down their lives for their country which included those individuals who wouldn't pay their taxes. Just a couple of examples to think about.
mari - what should the cutoff be for a person to start having to pay taxes and at what percentage should they pay?
and lets keep in mind that the person who makes $7K/annual isn't living on that $7k alone. their are a few gov't programs available. food stamps, medical, housing. it all adds up. nobody denies that there really are poor people living in america - but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available.
if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available.
Is that a realistic idea for most low-income people? When you move somewhere, you have to find a place to live, which requires first month's rent, security deposit, etc. Someone who's living on the poverty line most likely doesn't have that kind of cash laying around. If she were to go to a more "prosperous" location, I guarantee the rent would cost significantly more than what she's already paying. That money just doesn't fall out of the sky.
i don't know. i know it isn't realistic for some people because they aren't willing to stick their neck out that far for fear of the unknown and the what-ifs. which is understandable. all i know is that if moving up in life (whatever that means to each individual) is important enough to a person they can accomplish it. there are a million things that might prevent a person from succeeding, but only one thing guarantees failure - and that is the decision not to try. it is in human nature to hold on to what we have and complain about how pitiful it is rather than risk losing it for the chance of gaining more.
i all i know is that if moving up in life (whatever that means to each individual) is important enough to a person they can accomplish it.
OK, I'll take you up on that. Say someone lives in a small-ish town and makes just enough to get by--they live paycheck to paycheck (as many people do) and cannot afford to save anything. They want to get a better job and move to a more prosperous place or a bigger city where there are more opportunities. They have the will and the ambition to move on, but no funds to back it up. How do you
specifically suggest that they proceed at that point?
they probably couldn't do it over night, but if the goal is important enough to them they can put away a couple of dollars from their current job so that soon they can do it. does this person have a tv? stereo? anything of relative value they may not need in order to start over?
by the way - i did start over a few years ago after a relationship went south. i was in a $25K/annual job with no hope for upward mobility. i quit there and sacked out at in an aquaintance's storage area. (pretty uncomfortable with 110 degree AZ heat) i stayed in there for six weeks until i could get into an apartment. i had no furniture, just my clothes and some dishes. i sold my stereo, tv, bass, and amp to pay the 1st month rent. i started a 100% commission job with good potential (i had no experience in the area, i bluffed my way through the interview) and went from there.
i now live quite comfortably.
edit: my point is that if i can do it, anyone can. i'm sure there are some here that would point out that i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, i still support bush afterall. its not easy. it is scary. it is embarrassing. but it is possible.
Most of these poor people a saddled with a rugrat or two or three or four or......., so much for the storage area.
Mari, a couple years ago I had a girlfriend that was single with two boys in high school. She made a little over $16 k, federal withholding of about $1900 and a refund of well over $3k. :eyebrow:
bruce i wasn't suggesting that everyone follow in my footsteps. but i get tired of hearing the "i can't do _________ because _________ is in my way." there is always a path to improving one's situation.
Most of these poor people a saddled with a rugrat or two or three or four or......., so much for the storage area.
Mari, a couple years ago I had a girlfriend that was single with two boys in high school. She made a little over $16 k, federal withholding of about $1900 and a refund of well over $3k. :eyebrow:
So what's your point, Bruce? Did she get the extra $1100 because she was dishonest and cheated on her tax return? If so, I'd be mad, too. I don't advocate dishonesty. Or did she get the extra $1100 for earned income rebate as a single Mom of 2 boys? That's a family of three living on less than $1400/month from the information you give. If that's all she earned, I don't see how she managed to make ends meet, and you begrudge her a lousey extra $1100? Give me a break. Why aren't you angry over the $50 billion that your taxes are helping to pay towards rebuilding Iraq?
mari - what should the cutoff be for a person to start having to pay taxes and at what percentage should they pay?
and lets keep in mind that the person who makes $7K/annual isn't living on that $7k alone. their are a few gov't programs available. food stamps, medical, housing. it all adds up. nobody denies that there really are poor people living in america - but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available.
Frankly, I believe there should be no cut off point. I feel that there should be a simple flat rate tax that applies across the board from people who make one dollar a year to one billion or more. There should be no tax dodges on that amount or exceptions. You just pay it, just as you pay sales tax. When you buy something at the store, it doesn't matter if you are single or married, have 20 dependents or none, or are wealthy or poor - you pay that 6% or whatever it is in your area. That is the simple, fair and just solution.
As for the rest of your comments: Lookout, you believe the same things I once used to believe - that there are any number of programs out there which help the poor or the elderly or the disabled. There are not, at least on the Federal level, and not on the state level either with perhaps one or two exceptions.
Here's a reality check for you. HUD is cutting back its housing voucher program by at least $200 million which will force more than 600,000 American families out on the streets over the next 3 years. HUD did not have to do this - congress had appropriated the funding, but under the climate of the Bush administration, HUD decided to make these cuts anyway. Meanwhile, we are going to spend a minimum of 50 BILLION dollars to rebuild Iraq. People who are enemies of this country will have roofs over their heads thanks to YOUR tax dollars, but American people in need will be living on the streets. Bottom line, which chunk of your share of taxes is going to hit you the hardest - the $200 million to help your fellow countrymen or the $50 billion to help your enemy? I am on the HUD waiting list, but in light of these cuts, I do exactly feel in a sunny mood about getting any help from them anytime soon, and since this is a FEDERAL program, it makes no difference which state I move to.
Thanks to tax cuts which mainly benefit the wealthy which I gave substantiated examples of above; state and local governments everywhere are experiencing shortfalls. The first programs to go are always social services. Thanks to the lack of assistance from state and local governments, the poor are turning to charities in overwhelming numbers. These private charities cannot stand up under the strain. This is true in state after state.
The other thing that you forget is that people who have lived somewhere for a while tend to have a support system of friends and/or family in that place. Even if a person's friends are living in poverty themselves and can give no financial assistance, the emotional support they offer has no price that can be placed upon it.
You seem to want to hold on to some fairy tale belief of America the bountiful and think that somehow Colorado is the exception to every other state. Colorado is little different than any other place in this country and better than some. Garnet is right. How do I with an income of $625.00/month plus $140.00 a month in food stamps possibly afford to pick up and move to some other state and pay first and last month's rent plus damage deposit on an apartment somewhere? Remember, HUD is a Federal program, so anywhere I go in the country I will be faced with the same shortages and waiting lists. In fact, by moving I would loose my place on the El Paso County HUD list and have to start all over again at the bottom of another county's list in another state. Your suggestion is simply impossible and my saying that is no more defeatist than if you had advised me to sprout wings and fly, and I told you that human beings cannot grow wings.
Staying in Colorado is far from an act of defeat on my part, anyhow. My doctors are here, my support system is here. I have contacts here who I believe will reach out their hands to help me as I seek to rehabilitate myself and find work I can do again. Things are tough all over this country. I may as well take my stand and fight in a place that I love and where I have my roots than among strangers in a place I don't belong.
You seem to want to hold on to some fairy tale belief of America the bountiful and think that somehow Colorado is the exception to every other state. Colorado is little different than any other place in this country and better than some. Garnet is right. How do I with an income of $625.00/month plus $140.00 a month in food stamps possibly afford to pick up and move to some other state and pay first and last month's rent plus damage deposit on an apartment somewhere? Remember, HUD is a Federal program, so anywhere I go in the country I will be faced with the same shortages and waiting lists.
actually i don't believe that colorado is any different than the rest of the country. i wasn't suggesting that you move to another area for a better chance at a federal program. if you thought that is what i was saying then you missed the whole point. moving wouldn't help you. changing location for better work opportunities won't help a person who isn't working where they already are.
actually i don't believe that colorado is any different than the rest of the country. i wasn't suggesting that you move to another area for a better chance at a federal program. if you thought that is what i was saying then you missed the whole point. moving wouldn't help you. changing location for better work opportunities won't help a person who isn't working where they already are.
Well, make up your mind. Here's what you originally wrote:
" but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available."
What point am I missing?
__________________
Well, make up your mind. Here's what you originally wrote:
" but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available."
What point am I missing?
__________________
that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.
....and you begrudge her a lousey extra $1100? Give me a break. Why aren't you angry over the $50 billion that your taxes are helping to pay towards rebuilding Iraq?
Now
there's something we can be mad at America about...
that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.
Did she choose to have disabling health problems too?
I thought the American Dream had something to do with a House with a White Picket Fence, 2.3 children and a dog.
that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.
Excuse me:
Reality - SSDI income $625.00/month
Reality - food stamps $140.00/month
Reality - housing voucher indefinate waiting list of two years or more
YOU are the one who refuses to see any reality other than your own, because you would be forced to re-exam your system of beliefs and move out of your little comfort zone.
I did not choose to breath in a deadly gas for 5 years. I attempted to prevent such an event by installing a CO detector in my home. It was faulty and malfunctioned. I had no way of knowing this.
If I state that I now have difficulties performing things that I once did without even thinking twice about them, this is not "bitching and moaning." It is a statement of fact.
You do not know what I am going through right now, precisely because I choose NOT to bitch and moan about it. You do not know about the therapy I am undergoing. You do not know what I am attempting through voc-rehab and on my own.
It seems to me that when I corner you on some point, you fall back on labeling me a "victim." Well, whatever helps you get through the night. I'm tired of attempting to defend myself to people with closed minds and zero medical knowledge. I have better things to do.
What seems to be the problem here is that neither side of this particular battle is really seeing (or trying to see) the other side. There are lots of truths and facts being presented to validate either side's case, but there's also truth in the fact that the whole set up is entirely subjective. The American Dream is an abstract concept and can't be tied down with reality, facts and truths, mainly because it's different for so many people. There's a lot of argument about what the Dream means or has meant to you as individuals but for several it seems the Dream can't mean anything else but that.
Let's say John Q Public starts out in a poor, low-down neighboorhood, drops out of high school and eventually ekes his way into a bag boy job at the local grocery store down the street, making $6/hr, $12,160-ish per year. If all he wants is to bring home enough cash to help support his family so they all can live a little easier, who can chide him for that? How much he pays in taxes is irrelevant. Whether or not he can pick up all and move far away to possibly get $7/hr bagging groceries is irrelevant. And whether or not he should is irrelevant too. If he's happy doing what he's doing, he's realized the American Dream. The same can be said if John started off in a wealthy family, finished grad school and started a business.
Of course, not everyone would be happy and settle with a $6/hr job or owning a startup business. And not everyone is going to move past that. The American Dream is about being able to pursue happiness in whatever it is you do. It doesn't matter if what you want to do is provide a supplemental income or start a business or wrangle the money markets and live off your inheritance. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a monetary line where happiness begins. Poverty != unhappiness, and great wealth != happiness. Just because one person, or a group of people, refuses be happy making less than $XXX a year doesn't mean someone else or another group of people has to be unhappy as well.
If I state that I now have difficulties performing things that I once did without even thinking twice about them, this is not "bitching and moaning." It is a statement of fact.
You do not know what I am going through right now, precisely because I choose NOT to bitch and moan about it. You do not know about the therapy I am undergoing. You do not know what I am attempting through voc-rehab and on my own.
Here's the problem, mari: You are clearly able to write these long, well-thought-out responses on a wide variety of topics on this board, and have been doing so for some time. You talk about going camping and other various activities, so you don't seem to be significantly physically constrained in any way. The biggest problem I can recall you talking about is a lack of short-term memory. But all in all, you don't seem to be very disabled to a lot of people on this board.
I'm not trying to belittle your experience or tell you that "it's all in your head," I do believe you were exposed to CO and your brain was affected by it. Perhaps if we met you in person it would be more obvious why you are unable to work. But just reading what you've posted, you clearly seem able to hold a job--probably not a head librarian with a personal secretary, but certainly a job making more than $625 a month plus $140 in food stamps.
I imagine the problem is you would find such work--say, as a receptionist or a grocery store cashier--demeaning, and choose to stay on disability instead. But if you wanted to, I believe you could easily get a job making $7-$8 an hour, probably more. And once you had that job, I believe you could move up from there. But you have to be willing to work hard to improve your situation, and that may mean accepting the fact that no amount of vocational therapy will get you back to where you once were.
cyber wolf, that is what you said a page or 2 back and i think most people understood and accepted that as a very good explanation. the "dream" is different for everyone. we all have a shot at our dream.
the debate moved from being about that, to being more mari's about paranoid, victimized view of the world. but i still agree with you cyber wolf about what the dream is.
Well said, clodfobble. Mari is also able to drive which requires short term memory and spatial ability--things she says she has difficulty with. Is Mari driving impaired? I don't know, but it seems like it.
Can we focus less on Mari and more on the topic? Pleeeeease? With sugar? And caramel? And sprinkles? And whatever else topping you want? Double helping? :p
the question that began the thread has been answered. you summarized it very well. from there it moved into the assertion that the american dream exists only for comfy middle class folks. most of us disagree with that because as you pointed out the american dream is an idea not a benchmark. money doesn't equal happiness. there are folks who are living their american dream on $25K per year and there are folks who are still scrambling to achieve the dream who make $250K per year. the phrase "american dream" is misleading, it should be "american's dream" - so that everyone could understand it, like much in this country, is about the individual.
edit: my point is that if i can do it, anyone can. i'm sure there are some here that would point out that i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, i still support bush afterall. its not easy. it is scary. it is embarrassing. but it is possible.
Exactly..possible. Anything's "possible" and
nothing is guaranteed.
"Until you have walked in my shoes, you do
NOT have the right to tell me what route to walk". Dr. George Keller
that is the point LSyc. it is possible, not guaranteed. that is why it is called the american dream, not the american promise. we are guaranteed Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. notice that the key to that is pursuit ? everyone has the ability to chase their particular golden ring. it is up to the individual with a little bit of luck thrown in to achieve financial success. it is also up to the individual to live a happy life.
i'm probably butchering the quote but i always liked the idea - "happiness is having what you want, contentness is wanting what you have" - or something along those lines.
that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.
Reality, eh?
YOUR reality isn't
HER'S nor is it
mine. Are you on disability? Are you dealing with a chronic illness? Are you finding it hard to find work because of your schedule of various doctors appointments, etc.? I suspect the answer is no. So what if she bitches and moans about her situation...you know nothing about how she lives because you do not live it. I have a small idea of what she is *feeling* because it's a goddamned bitch trying to work with a system that doesn't seem to be willing to help you out and trying to make adjustments in order to live a halfway normal life.
money doesn't equal happiness.
Speak for yourself. I certainly wouldn't mind a lot of extra cash right now. It certainly would make things more "happier" for me. I'm not even gonna lie...
:eyebrow: (SIGH!) Okay, folks. I really was not interested in making this some discussion about me or my disability. The following is NOT whining; it's since you all asked. And I am NEVER going to write about this stuff again; in the future I will refer anyone who wonders to this post.
My long term memory which includes my years of education and professional training are intact, so are my verbal skills. These things are hard-wired in, so to speak. What I have difficulty with is my short term memory, my ability to concentrate, my spatial memory, and worst of all, I have gone what I call "blind" to time. My 15 minutes is your two hours. I have lost what psychologists call my executive function which is my ability to make a plan and take the steps to see it through to completion.
The posts that I write are seldom longer than a page, and usually consist of a couple of paragraphs. This writing reflects my old intact skills. I use the fact that I can go back down and refer to what everybody else has written as an aid to my memory so that I can respond in context to what has already been written. I cannot sustain writing something that goes much beyond three pages. It is too much for me. I get distract, go off and do something else and forget what I was trying to write.
Difficulty with spatial memory does not mean that I cannot drive the streets of my home town. That's an old memory. My short term memory is not that I forget that I'm at a red light or that a car is on my left hand side. I am aware of these things, but that short term awareness does not get stored into my long term memory anymore. When I get home, I could not describe the details of my drive to you.
When I am in an unfamiliar place, I often become lost. On this last trip (which it took me literally 4 days to pack my car for), I became lost 4 or 5 or 6 times. Once I was lost for an entire day on a maze of back roads. Lucky for me I had just filled my gas tank before that happened. I carry a book of 15 minute quads of the state and I also have an inexpensive GPS unit to help me figure out my coordinates. Despite the GPS and maps, I was still completely baffled as to where I was. When I wrote of my adventure on the Ute res in another thread, I had to stop because it was dark, I had been routed onto an unfamiliar road, and I had lost my bearings. I drove around northern New Mexico that night until 2:00 am when I finally lucked upon a small town I remembered from the old days and was able to get back on the right road. My friends have learned not to get too concerned about me if I don't show up when I'm supposed to. "Oh, how long we're you lost for this time?" they'll joke. I will also sometimes experience several minutes or more of complete blankout as to where I am. I'll be driving down the road and suddenly realize that NOTHING looks familiar and I don't know where I'm going. At such times I have to pull off the road and just sit quietly for a while until I become re-oriented. These are scarey experiences, and I am quick to pull over to the side of the road and get out of other driver's way when they happen to me.
Loss of spatial memory also means that I do not remember new faces. I can talk to someone I have been newly introduced to for an hour and the next day pass them on the street without knowing who they are. It takes me at least 4 or5 encounters with someone before I can begin to recognize them as someone I know. For example, when I first moved into where I now live, my landlord came to my door one day and I had no idea who he was even though we'd spent an hour or more talking only the week before. That's scarey and makes me fearful of new people because I always feel they know something that I don't.
Clodfobble, you are very quick to judge. The reason why I get so little from SSDI is that I refused to apply for disability for a long time after this happened to me. I considered going on disability to be a personal defeat. I attempted jobs as a gardener, a janitor, a dishwasher, ANYTHING to earn some money. In every single case I was fired from every job I attempted for being too slow and because of my difficulties with arriving on time. My short term memory lost manifests itself as an inability to rember what I should be doing - I "ping" from thing to thing and never get back to my original task. Does your city have those people who sell flowers on street corners? Well, mine does, and I tried that, too. I stood on the corners of my city's street holding out carnations to passing drivers. To keep my spirits up, I would play that song by Jewel, "Hands" on my cheap little boombox...
"My hands are small, I know; but they're not yours, they are my own and I am never broken...I won't be made useless. I won't be idled by despair. I've given myself to my faith. Its light the darkness most fears..."
Don't you DARE tell me I think I'm too good to attempt menial work. Don't judge a person before you've walked in their shoes.
I could go on, but I would think that the above should be sufficient. If you still want to judge me. Go ahead.
Mari, thanks for sharing that information. It's none of my business, but I'm curious. What's your situation now? You don't seem to be camping anymore. Where do you live? Is someone helping you? How do you have internet access? At a library? Again, it's none of our business, but I'm curious.
Thanks.
All-American WalMart? They're public enemy #1!!!!!!! They have done more to contribute to the decline in America, than all foreign companies combined. They are a bigger boon to China than rice. They've put more Americans out of work than automation.
Okay, not to hijack the thread too badly -- how do you feel about Target? (pronounced "Tar-jey" around here...)
- Pie
Okay, not to hijack the thread too badly -- how do you feel about Target? (pronounced "Tar-jey" around here...)
- Pie
I was wondering the same thing. I never shop at Walmart. Mostly because they aren't around here. But I do shop at Target. They are a good clean store with decent employees. Much nicer than the Walmarts I've been to.
Are they as evil? I never noticed that they had rock bottom prices on anything. I mostly just shop there because they have a lot under one roof.
Also, what about Home Depot? Lots of Mom and Pop hardware stores have gone belly up because of the Despot.
Mari, thanks for sharing that information. It's none of my business, but I'm curious. What's your situation now? You don't seem to be camping anymore. Where do you live? Is someone helping you? How do you have internet access? At a library? Again, it's none of our business, but I'm curious.
Thanks.
I was finally awarded my SSDI and got a back payment last June. In addition, my story appeared in a local paper and a retired Air Force Colonel who had been a professor of Russian history at the US Air Force Academy stepped forward with a very generous offer of financial help which allowed me to pay the rent on the cottage I now live in through next Feburary. The money from SSDI allowed me to replace my battered lap top with a new computer and I have a phone which I get a small discount on the bill for. I get dial-up access to the net through AOL. I just keep putting in new disks with the free offers of hours. I am very concerned about what my situation will be next Feburary if I have not recieved a housing voucher by then. I pray a lot.
And, BTW, I bet there won't be another word written in this thread by Brianna, Clodfobble, Lookout and anyone else who just were dying to turn this thread into their own little spam fest against me. It really makes me angry that what started out as an impersonal political debate had to degenerate into what it did, and then have the people who turned it personal slink off without another word. I can understand why people might be confused about my situation, but if I'm not writing about myself why do they insist that I do? I shouldn't allow myself to become upset over a few cyber strangers, but I am. People are soooooo STUPID! On one hand they say I appear intelligent and on the other they say I'm faking it. Well, if I'm so smart and I was lying, wouldn't I dumb down my posts and play the role of the popular image of a brain injured person? Like: itz werrie hard forr mee tooo tipe now *(3 my hans don werlk rite 86 and eye ferget n whut i wuz sayin..."
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Just had to add that. Sorry, but I now have anger problems along with my other difficulties :mad2:
Here are three words written by Brianna: Borderline. Personality. Disorder.
and, folks, it's not me! :3eye:
Here are three words written by Brianna: Borderline. Personality. Disorder.
and, folks, it's not me! :3eye:
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
it was thoughtful. I'm no rookie to these things, you know.
it was thoughtful. I'm no rookie to these things, you know.
Right. I am in a very bad mood today, and tag you're it. You've proven you can dish it out, now let's see if you can take it.
To begin with you claim that you were an RN for 25 years and yet you don't even know basic science as shown by your confusion of CO with CO2. You tried to write that off as a typo. So just how skilled a nurse were you anyhow? Did you make similiar "typo's" when administering medications to your patients?
You claim a person can become an RN with a 2 year degree. True enough 25 years ago, but today the nursing profession is steadily moving forward to require stiffer academic requirements for the RN certification, and the baccalaureate degree is becoming the norm. No doubt while you were still in your profession you were subjected to a certain amount of pressure to upgrade your academic credentials, and you couldn't make the grade because you don't even know the basic fundamentals of freshman biology and chemistry. In addition to that, your treatment of your patients was lacking in compassion and empathy just as your posts are on this board.
In other words, you were burned out - "Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat."
Great pride you took in your profession, there. No doubt you woke up one morning with a pulled back muscle (back problems are an occupational hazard in the nursing profession) and trotted right down to your human services offices with your disability claim. You had private health insurance and private disability insurance and you knew the right people (and they were probably happy to see you go) and viola'! A nice fat disability check for life. How nice for you.
Somewhere along the way you picked up a superiority complex - no doubt from those "God-like" doctors you had to work with everyday - which you use to cover up your deep seated feelings of low worth - "if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English."
To compensate for this you have become a self appointed expert on any topic which may arise including the SSDI system. You and I both know that your private disability insurance company held your hand and walked you through the SSDI process and makes up the gap between what SSDI really gives you and the amount you recieve on your disability check.
"Starting out, recent measly 2 year grad, I made 50K." "I've worked in the ss system for 25 years." I see. You worked in the social security system for 25 years. That means you would have started your career in the late seventies. No one paid nurses 50k back then. They barely make that much now. Or did you start out as a government worker and change careers? Your statements don't match up. You are obviously twisting your story to make it look as though there's some validity behind your words.
You smugly state that "FEDERAL SSDI takes 2-4 months in Ohio. The award is 1271 single, 2570 for a woman with two kids." Anybody who knows ANYTHING about the SSDI system couldn't help but laugh at such a ludicrous statement. I don't have the faintest idea where you got those figures. Maybe that's what your private insurance pays. It sure ain't how the Feds do it.
You have consistently given false information in your posts and used extremely misleading wording. Your credibility is non-existant. For someone who is "no rookie at these things", the ignorance you display is appalling . Thank God for your helpless patients that you no longer work as a nurse.
So what's your point, Bruce? Did she get the extra $1100 because she was dishonest and cheated on her tax return? If so, I'd be mad, too. I don't advocate dishonesty. Or did she get the extra $1100 for earned income rebate as a single Mom of 2 boys? That's a family of three living on less than $1400/month from the information you give. If that's all she earned, I don't see how she managed to make ends meet, and you begrudge her a lousey extra $1100? Give me a break. Why aren't you angry over the $50 billion that your taxes are helping to pay towards rebuilding Iraq?
Oh, really? Low income people everywhere will be delighted to hear this. Perhaps you should make this astonishing news of government largesse more widely known to the world. A single person who earned over $7,000 a year was required to pay income tax in 2003. The Federal guidelines for the poverty level is anyone living on less than $9,310.00 a year. That means that people living in poverty are required taxes, so what's this "the poor don't pay taxes"?
I'm not begruging her anything just pointing out not all the poor pay taxes. Remember high horses make for long falls. ;)
I'm not begruging her anything just pointing out not all the poor pay taxes. Remember high horses make for long falls. ;)
Well, I think we misunderstood one another then, Bruce. That was my point about a million posts back (I think) that anyone who gets more than 7K a year pays taxes. I've been a tad grouchy lately, in case you haven't noticed. ;)
I really dont understand all the flak that seems to come Marichiko's way. I hear that story and I think, Damn I would hate that. I hear that story and I am amazed she is still trying at all. How many people faced with those kinds of difficulties would just give up on life? Maybe if she'd been born with those difficulties everyone would be a little more sympathetic. The fact she has been poisoned in adulthood and had her mental faculties severely hampered and her career pulled from under her feet seems to engender at best disbelief and at worst disdain. Get a grip guys, give the woman a break for fucks sake.
The American dream is alive and well because it is precisely that, a dream. Whether or not the dream is as achievable for many as it may once have been is a different question altogether. I'd like to think as an ideal you wont let that one die. Right now I suspect it's a dream which many share but which few achieve. Maybe if people like Marichiko and the millions of other Americans who have been abandoned by their system at various times in life could be given a little more compassion and help and rather less bitchy disdain and hostility then they too may be in a position to pursue their dreams.
Mari - what was the source of the CO?
Mari - what was the source of the CO?
It was a faulty home furnace, Jinx. I had a CO detector in my home, but the thing was malfunctioning which I didn't know 'til after the fact. I was renting a duplex which belonged to my Mom which is why I didn't sue my landlord. I did make a claim with her homeowner's insurance when the doctor I saw from disability told me the damage was permanent. Unfortunately 3 years had passed by time I was finally able to get this verdict, and the homeowner's company took defense behind te two year statute of limitations rule in Colorado.
I really dont understand all the flak that seems to come Marichiko's way. I hear that story and I think, Damn I would hate that. I hear that story and I am amazed she is still trying at all. How many people faced with those kinds of difficulties would just give up on life? Maybe if she'd been born with those difficulties everyone would be a little more sympathetic. The fact she has been poisoned in adulthood and had her mental faculties severely hampered and her career pulled from under her feet seems to engender at best disbelief and at worst disdain. Get a grip guys, give the woman a break for fucks sake.
The American dream is alive and well because it is precisely that, a dream. Whether or not the dream is as achievable for many as it may once have been is a different question altogether. I'd like to think as an ideal you wont let that one die. Right now I suspect it's a dream which many share but which few achieve. Maybe if people like Marichiko and the millions of other Americans who have been abandoned by their system at various times in life could be given a little more compassion and help and rather less bitchy disdain and hostility then they too may be in a position to pursue their dreams.
Thank you for saying that Dana. I can somewhat relate to Mari's situation. While I haven't gone through half of what she has went through, I went through quite about enough BS with the state of PA, and currently, with stupid ass doctors that don't know what the hell they are doing (I'll be switching docs in Novemeber).
You can find information regarding this matter @
www.riddle.wrappedarounda :p nightmare.com
This website is also linked to a lot of other nationalist sayings and abstractions.If you decide to follow this link you may start getting the picture.
Thanks Lady Syc and Dana and to CyberWolf, too. :beer: I sometimes get a little more upset then I should over some of the BS, but that's all it is - BS. As for my post about Brianna, well ... No, I'm still pretty pissed at her, and all I did was give her a dose of her own medicine. :p
Hey! Flip, my friend, lost your number and the number Little Chief Storm Cloud supplied me with was forever busy. Will try again. ;)
Well it's probably really stupid to make my board debut in the middle of a heated thread but then - why try to be something I'm not, eh?
Marichiko, although my definition of the American Dream (nod to topic) is closer to Lookout's than yours, I feel your frustration and add my two cents accordingly. I have someone in my life who was on Ohio SSDI for several years -$550/month plus medicare/medicaid. It is not a government handout but insurance that we all pay into when we are working and healthy. There should be no more stigma attached to collecting on social security disability insurance than there is for submitting a claim against car insurance. He is now working part-time at WalMart for 6.75/hour so the SSDI checks have stopped but he still gets the medicare/medicaid. It's a good thing he does because his monthly cost for medication is $314. He has schizophrenia and couldn't possibly work without the medication so it's almost a Catch22 situation.
I don't want to derail this thread with too much talk about socialized medicine but the idea has been put forth here that people wouldn't need disability insurance or medicare if they lived careful, seat belted, apple eating lives. That simply isn't true. The number one reason for government funded SSDI is schizophrenia, a disease that strikes young people without reason or known cause. I think the number of people collecting it because they led reckless lives are a very small percentage.
Welcome, Ernestine! I've never discussed social issues with a basset hound before. I bet you have some interesting takes on things. :D
Your comments on schizophrenia are so right on and thank you for also stating the reality of SSDI payments in Ohio (which match those in the rest of the country).
Your friend is very fortunate that his schizophrenia is not so profound that he can't work even with the medication. I know several people with schizophrenia who draw eiher SSI or SSDI and even with their meds function only with the greatest difficulty. One, especially, is one of the sweetest kindest persons you could ever hope to meet. He'll let people who have nowhere else to go stay at his place - stuff like that. Yet he is so delusional, even with his meds. He thinks that he built the entire city of Colorado Springs and that he played in the band with the Beatles. He lives on that $550 a month plus $140 in food stamps. Needless to say, by the middle of the month his food stamps have been used up and he must walk 4 miles each way to the local soup kitchen because he is afraid of the strangers who ride the city bus system (which is worthless, anyhow, and too expensive for someone who gets so little money).
Many of the homeless people on this country's streets are schizophrenic. They can't navigate the SSI system on their own and don't understand or are afraid of the people in the agencies who might give them help. These people break my heart, but the rest of my fellow Americans view them with callous disregard.
It was a faulty home furnace, Jinx. I had a CO detector in my home, but the thing was malfunctioning which I didn't know 'til after the fact.
A reminder at the right time of year. Home heating systems should be serviced by someone that knows what they're doing at least once a year. ;)
Oh, you're tiresome. SSI is indeed 550/month but it differs from SSDI which is based on HOW MUCH YOU PAID INTO THE SYSTEM. My 12 year-old niece rc's 550/month in SSI payments because she has cerebral palsy and seizures--she is disabled, but as a 12 year old has, obviously paid NOTHING into the system yet she GETS the SSI as she qualifies. She does not get SSDI. Some people even claim SSDI and SSI together and get subsidized housing and food stamps and subsidized utilities. And they get free medical care (medicaid)---there are programs out there for voc-rehab, too. Who pays for those? You bore me with your incessant digging. No wonder you're in the mess you are in. Enjoy your wallow.
I was wondering the same thing. I never shop at Walmart. Mostly because they aren't around here. But I do shop at Target. They are a good clean store with decent employees. Much nicer than the Walmarts I've been to.
Are they as evil? I never noticed that they had rock bottom prices on anything. I mostly just shop there because they have a lot under one roof.
Also, what about Home Depot? Lots of Mom and Pop hardware stores have gone belly up because of the Despot.
I don't know anything about Target.
Yes, Home Depot (and Lowes) have decimated the hardware stores. This is as much the fault of the consumer as it is the giants. OK, for major renovation projects I'll buy the giants make it easier, but if you want 1/2 lf of ten penny nails, why fight traffic, killer parking lots and crowds, to get them them. Half the crowds you're fighting, are there to pick up some little thing but wander around the whole store aimlessly like it's a cultural experience.
Worshipping the Big Box God? Bowing to consumerism? Trying to remember if there's any play left in the credit card? Damifino. :confused:
Well it's probably really stupid to make my board debut in the middle of a heated thread but then - why try to be something I'm not, eh?
Hell yeah, jump right in and welcome to the Cellar. :D
He is now working part-time at WalMart for 6.75/hour so the SSDI checks have stopped but he still gets the medicare/medicaid. It's a good thing he does because his monthly cost for medication is $314. He has schizophrenia and couldn't possibly work without the medication so it's almost a Catch22 situation.
Damn, schizophrenia and WalMart! That's double jeopardy. :(
I don't want to derail this thread with too much talk about socialized medicine but the idea has been put forth here that people wouldn't need disability insurance or medicare if they lived careful, seat belted, apple eating lives. That simply isn't true. The number one reason for government funded SSDI is schizophrenia, a disease that strikes young people without reason or known cause. I think the number of people collecting it because they led reckless lives are a very small percentage.
Two separate topics, socialized medicine and disability ins/medicare. :eyebrow:
In Marichiko's case, it was the result of something that's easily preventable. If her Mother (landlord) or the management company if there was one, had done the proper maintenance of the heating system, this wouldn't have happened.
Oh, you're tiresome. SSI is indeed 550/month but it differs from SSDI which is based on HOW MUCH YOU PAID INTO THE SYSTEM. My 12 year-old niece rc's 550/month in SSI payments because she has cerebral palsy and seizures--she is disabled, but as a 12 year old has, obviously paid NOTHING into the system yet she GETS the SSI as she qualifies. She does not get SSDI. Some people even claim SSDI and SSI together and get subsidized housing and food stamps and subsidized utilities. And they get free medical care (medicaid)---there are programs out there for voc-rehab, too. Who pays for those? You bore me with your incessant digging. No wonder you're in the mess you are in. Enjoy your wallow.
I continue to feel the same contempt for your statements. Refer to my post to you above
http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=122783&postcount=118 for my reply as well as any future replies of mine to statements you make.
Has anyone considered that at the time "The American Dream" was coined, there was a large immigration movement? Could it be the American Dream was escaping the oppression and/or the crushing poverty/stagnation of the old country? Having the opportunity to work, to work at anything and if you worked well, be rewarded. :confused:
Has anyone considered that at the time "The American Dream" was coined, there was a large immigration movement?
That's what I thought of first, Bruce. Since people are still fighting for the chance to come here, I think the American Dream must still be alive. I know several immigrant families who have come with very little, managed to open and run a small business, raise children, put them through college and launch them in professional jobs. One example is a Korean couple whose son is now attending West Point. I think, for me, that's the dream in a nut shell, the ability to give your children a better life than you had.
[Love your signature, Bruce.]
In Marichiko's case, it was the result of something that's easily preventable. If her Mother (landlord) or the management company if there was one, had done the proper maintenance of the heating system, this wouldn't have happened.
Just a second public service announcement to anyone who might still be riding this roller coaster thread ;) :
At the time my Mother was married to her second husband, a man who extremely frugal (read:cheapskate), and cut corners on EVERYTHING. He serviced my furnace himself even though he had zero background in the area of home heating work. Thanks to his incompetant tinkering, the furnace burned improperly. The moral of the story is that there are certain things you shouldn't do yourself, no matter how bright you think you might be. Home furnace repair is one of those things.