Scare yourself
It might be useful.
http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=711
On June 29, 2004, at 12:28 p.m., I flew on Northwest Airlines flight #327 from Detroit to Los Angeles with my husband and our young son. Also on our flight were 14 Middle Eastern men between the ages of approximately 20 and 50 years old. What I experienced during that flight has caused me to question whether the United States of America can realistically uphold the civil liberties of every individual, even non-citizens, and protect its citizens from terrorist threats.
I don't know what's scarier ... the story of the flight itself, the apparent media blackout of such events, or the lack of action ...
Interesting. I doubt it was a media blackout per se, more of a noone asked and we didn't tell situation. They may also have been hoping to monitor each dry run to get the technique down pat so they knew what to look for and ID as many potentials as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if there was hidden camera in the toilets on the next flight they took. My guess is there are levels of intel going on here we don't know about.
Of course theres always the possibility that the story was less than honest. A story about scary arabic men gathering on a plane to do harm. We are supposed to take at face value the woman's assertion that she is not racist and has travelled with muslims before. Interestingly she has a Jewish surname and as far as I am aware there is little love lost between the two faiths and plenty of reason for one to add to fuel to the fires which are currently burning. Much as there are articles aplenty in the Arabic world which focus on Jews as the villain of the piece.
Or they're all just too busy rehearsing Christmas songs to catch any subversives.
Incidentally, I'll be catching a flight in a few hours. The last time I went to Phoenix, I lost two or three really great wrenches because we were running a little late and I forgot to take my bike tools out of my backpack.
Really, that's what worries me about traveling. A more fundamentally American (conservative capitalist) fear: that the regulations designed to protect me will instead tear from my grasp some of my Precious Stuff.
I realize she claims she's not a racist by citing some other trip she took, but that doesn't change the fact that she, well, is; the centerpiece of her argument seems to be race. It would be excusable if she were discussing a fundamentally race-based issue (yarmulkes), but it's just unnecessary here. <i>Any</i> 14 men who boarded an airplane separately but interacted as a group would have been cause for alarm. 14 <a href="http://imdb.com/title/tt0208092/">Jewish</a> men, even. But by calling them "men of middle-eastern decent" every time they sneeze she suggests that their race is important. She cites the language they speak along side how they act, as if it were just as damning; if racism isn't fear brought on by someone's place of origin and spoken language, what is?
One hopes the Washington Post reporter who talked to her came away with the same conclusion and did do the followup with the FAA.
To my mind, militant Islamism is more of an offense to humanity than racism; and to offend people from other societies in the name of safety less of an offense than having thousands of people rudely killed in the name of a religious power grab.
Racism, in the USA, is yesterday's problem; militant Islam is what made race irrelevant in America on 9/12/01 and a few months after. Did you know that not one Arab was killed in retaliatory anger in the USA?
Racism, in the USA, is yesterday's problem; militant Islam is what made race irrelevant in America on 9/12/01 and a few months after. Did you know that not one Arab was killed in retaliatory anger in the USA?
I seem to remember some mosque bombings and the like.
To my mind, militant Islamism is more of an offense to humanity than racism; and to offend people from other societies in the name of safety less of an offense than having thousands of people rudely killed in the name of a religious power grab.
So that justifies racism?
To expand on skunks point a little - I doubt there would be many more terorism-safe ways to travel by plane than on arabian airline full of muslims, not exactly a tempting target for islamic extremeists.
Bit of a side question but I know in that situation the first thing I'd do is go to the toilet and search it, throughly, for anything odd. How would others react?
"Racism, in the USA, is yesterday's problem; militant Islam is what made race irrelevant in America on 9/12/01 and a few months after"
What about racism against Arabic men ( in particular) who are swept up in fishing expeditions by the police, or dragged in off the streets to be whisked off to Syria for "questioning" ? I dont mean "moslem" men though many are, I mean men who look to be of Arabic descent.
Personally I think Islamaphobia is an equal and equivalent threat to world peace as Islamic fundamentalism. Islamaphobia leads us westerners into some very dubious practices, all in the name of freedom and safety and each one driving a further wedge between the East and West. In the West bigotry towards those who follow Islam ( or even look as if they might ) is routine and extreme.
And......you seriously suggesting to me that racism is no longer a problem in America? I find that difficult, nay impossible to believe.
Hmmm. what would I do in that situation? Whoo. Toughy. Maybe I would be really resourceful and calm......or maybe I would just curl into the feotal position and cry......no way to know
Not one Arab killed.
Astonishing isn't it?
I find that difficult, nay impossible to believe.
Easy enough if you're white and live in the suburbs.
"Not one Arab killed."
Are we now measuring levels of racism on the number of deaths?
Here's what I don't get: dozens of flights have been grounded or canceled entirely because of vague intelligence that there might be a terrorist act on the plane. Nowadays just a one-way ticket is a HUGE red flag. 14 Arabic men with one-way tickets, and the flight left the ground? And the flight attendant told her they were "surrounded" by air marshals? I thought usually there was one, maybe two. This seems very much like a sting operation, they knew these guys were up to something and let it continue in the hopes of catching them in something big.
Here's what I don't get: dozens of flights have been grounded or canceled entirely because of vague intelligence that there might be a terrorist act on the plane. Nowadays just a one-way ticket is a HUGE red flag. 14 Arabic men with one-way tickets, and the flight left the ground? And the flight attendant told her they were "surrounded" by air marshals? I thought usually there was one, maybe two. This seems very much like a sting operation, they knew these guys were up to something and let it continue in the hopes of catching them in something big.
See this is what I was saying, it was a canned operation.
And......you seriously suggesting to me that racism is no longer a problem in America? I find that difficult, nay impossible to believe.
Look at the evidence: the most racist thing on this thread was said by a Brit:
Interestingly she has a Jewish surname
Better check yourself.
Arabs are an ethnic group, not a race.
Racism here is yesterday's problem...Goddamn...that was funny. It's still alive and well and just as relevant on 7/17/04 as it was on 9/10/01. All we did on 9/11/01 was put another problem on our plates that we should have added years before.
This seems very much like a sting operation, they knew these guys were up to something and let it continue in the hopes of catching them in something big.
"something big" as in--We blew up the plane? Any action then would kind of be inadequate, wouldn't it?
Brianna, they might have accessed information that confirmed it was a day run, they might have had a camera watching the toilets, they might have had someone on the plane who went into the toilets to make sure. The number of air marshalls makes it fairly certain it was a sting.
seems more like a secret shopper kind of a thing. from her description, the arabs were being fairly obvious. perhaps they were involved. trying to see what the reaction of the airport security and flight team would be. the marshalls may have been there to protect the arabs from any would be heros.
just a thought
Bit of a side question but I know in that situation the first thing I'd do is go to the toilet and search it, throughly, for anything odd. How would others react?
See? I had you down for the 'come close to wetting your pants, and rush to the bathroom to pee' sort. then again, i imagine that you would tell that story to your neighbor passengers so you look cool. "I just had to go check and make sure they weren't builiding a bomb in there, ya know." :)
I think I would do what that lady did......tell the attendant what i had seen, and cooperate.
See? I had you down for the 'come close to wetting your pants, and rush to the bathroom to pee' sort.
ouch
then again, i imagine that you would tell that story to your neighbor passengers so you look cool. "I just had to go check and make sure they weren't builiding a bomb in there, ya know."
ouch.
OH, SURE. take out my smilie and make me look mean.
How do we know there were any air marshalls and not just the flight attendant trying to calm a nervous passenger? :eyebrow:
The more I think about it, the more I think Jag's got it sussed... most flights would either have 0 or 1 air marshal on them, and here they're surrounding? I'd wager they were aware of what was going on and what could possibly go on.
Near the end of the article, it tahkes a surreal turn:
I continued my research by reading an article entitled Arab Hijackers Now Eligible For Pre-Boarding from Ann Coulter (www.anncoulter.com):
There are probably better ways of continuing one's research.
Undertoad, given the current ( and historic)hostilities between Arabs and Jews and given the power held by the Jewish lobby in America and their (I generalise based upon what I see in the media) attitude towards the Middle East issue in particular and arab cultures in general I dont think it's racist to see that the writer is Jewish and wonder if she has ulterior motives to her article. I would likewise see an article written by an Arab about Jewish activities as potentially loaded.
I am not bigotted against Jews. I lived for 12 years with a man called Judah whose name means "Lion protector of Israel" and I have Jewish heritage on my mother's side. ( she is 1/4 Jewish) something I have always been quite proud of. I worked for years with the Anti Nazi League in the UK and have been to several rallies to hear the words of Holocaust survivors. However.......the political landscape has changed dramatically in recent decades and the Jewish Diaspora is no longer powerless and no longer the people most likely to be victimised. That dubious honour now goes to Arabs
Interestingly whilst some of the Jewish Brits obviously support the actions of the IDF many do not. Many see it as a disgraceful perversion of the dream of Israel. If I were to see an article written in the UK by a Jewish writer I wold not make the same assumption of Zionist tendencies that I make when I see a Jewish American writing an article which portrays a group of faceless, unknown Arabic men as a hidden and dangerous enemy. America is at war and so is Israel. Amongst the political elite in Washington, Jewish voices are at the forefront of the Hawks. Not so off the wall then to spot a potential political agenda in an article such as this written by a member of a group which is projecting a hawk attitude against arab cultures particularly in regard to Palestine.
Well, here in the US we intermarry and our last names are pretty meaningless.
Thats a fair point Undertoad. If the writer had been discussing a less politically fraught subject matter I dont think I would have taken particular notice of her surname, for much that reason. There is of course the possibility that she isnt "Jewish" in identity despite having a Jewish surname. There's also the possibility that she is Jewish , proud of it and not the least bit Zionist.....But....When reading news articles which deal with very current and polarised issues, it's usually worth giving a moment's thought to the writer's possible political orientation. If I were to read an article about Jewish immigrants causing trouble and the name at the bottom of the article was Hussein or Waheed I may well pause to think.....Are they honest? Are they politically motivated? I woldnt necessarily have thought that 10 years ago......nor is it necessarily the case that I owld think that in ten years time. But right now, in the current climate there are soooo many people banging the drum for one side or the other in the media that really all journalists are suspect unless they are obviously *not* involved in one side of the fight or the other.
"Arabs are an ethnic group, not a race."
True. Maybe then I should class it as Ethnically based bigotry
Or bigotry based on reality. :dead:
Quoth (sayeth?) the Toad:
To my mind, militant Islamism is more of an offense to humanity than racism; and to offend people from other societies in the name of safety less of an offense than having thousands of people rudely killed in the name of a religious power grab.
Let's agree to disagree, then; I don't think that terrorism is a valid justification for broad stereotypes and bigotry. To my mind, it doesn't count as a "win" if, by fighting, you lower yourself to the level of the other side. Offending people in the name of safety can be justified only if you offend people equally, disregarding race/age/gender/etc.
Indiscriminate or unsatisfactorily specific killing (guilt by association, broad and subjective guidelines, etc) is the hallmark of terrorists. Indiscriminate or unsatisfactorily specific interrogation & incarceration is the hallmark of fascists and tyrants.
Both suck. One might suck less, but I don't think it sucks less enough.
It's complicated. It is very hard to ignore the fact that 14 Syrians on 1 way tickets are far more likely to be terrorists in this day and age than an elderly white grandma or a white businessman. Finding ways of addressing this without resorting to a racist legal base is difficult. My feeling is that inside the various bodies responsible for this stuff they couldn't give a damn about the racist angle, they've got a job to do, they profile, if the profile leans towards a race, so be it, fuck the legality, they've got a job to do and largely, that works. Sure it's unfair against the devout muslim who happens to be moving to NY but life is unfair, get used to it.
To my mind, it doesn't count as a "win" if, by fighting, you lower yourself to the level of the other side.
That's a very noble position,.....until you lose. :p
Jag's got it right. :thumpsup:
Racism, in the USA, is yesterday's problem; militant Islam is what made race irrelevant in America on 9/12/01 and a few months after. Did you know that not one Arab was killed in retaliatory anger in the USA?
:eek: Wow...never thought I'd have a jaw dropping moment with you UT, but here it is.
But that's ok: I'll still be on the lookout for someone who hates me bad enough to repeat what they did to James Byrd...and don't think that it won't happen again. :eyebrow: Don't believe that for a
SECOND, for as long as there is that type of hatred out there, it's bound to happen again.
Oh and as far as who
WAS injured/killed after 9/11, it happened to be people who were
THOUGHT to be Arab, so isn't the
intention just as bad as the action?
One single and very unfortunate Sikh.
Not bad for what, 300 million of us? People forget the post-event unity... what it felt like, what it brought about, how it wasn't all bad, and what it will be like after the next attack. Our collective memory is amazingly short.
The very reddest of redneck Alabama crackers and the blackest ace of spaces in Harlem will fight the common enemy together hand in hand... it is bred into us as a people. We are Americans and at the end of the day I am sure it is what we will do.
One single and very unfortunate Sikh.
Not bad for what, 300 million of us? People forget the post-event unity... what it felt like, what it brought about, how it wasn't all bad, and what it will be like after the next attack. Our collective memory is amazingly short.
I guess I don't understand how the intent of people purposely going out to do harm to Arabs should be overlooked just b/c actual Arabs were not harmed. :confused:
The very reddest of redneck Alabama crackers and the blackest ace of spaces in Harlem will fight the common enemy together hand in hand... it is bred into us as a people. We are Americans and at the end of the day I am sure it is what we will do.
Hm...you honestly think so UT? Better ask some black folk about that and then get back to me. :)
Hm...you honestly think so UT? Better ask some black folk about that and then get back to me. :)
Well, if not, then get back to me with something more important. I'm sorry LadySyc but with all due respect if the Black Community doesn't regard the terrorists as a common enemy worthy of uniting the 'Bama cracker with the Harlem Brother then that's fucked up. I know plenty of 'Bama crackers who would embrace the brothers from Harlem to fight the good fight against those who would destroy America.
Well, if not, then get back to me with something more important.
M'kay...:confused:
I'm sorry LadySyc but with all due respect if the Black Community doesn't regard the terrorists as a common enemy worthy of uniting the 'Bama cracker with the Harlem Brother then that's fucked up.
Then it's just going to have to be fucked up, isn't it? You can't sit there and honestly expect every black person to fight side by side with someone that some already feel is "the enemy".
Especially when this has already been done before (prior wars where blacks fought with whites for a "common goal" only to be treated like shit when the dust settled). Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you, but for some blacks, that's just the truth.
I know plenty of 'Bama crackers who would embrace the brothers from Harlem to fight the good fight against those who would destroy America.
And I know plenty of "brothas" who would tell those "crackas" to go fuck themselves and fight their own war.
Beestie, as far as some blacks are concerened, America has already been destroyed. She destroyed herself
WAYYYY before 9/11.
Why Blacks Oppose and Fight War:
http://tinyurl.com/5gv39
Not All Blacks Say 'No' to Iraq War:
http://www.namibian.com.na/2003/march/environment/03C5B1CF2A.html
Both sides.
Then it's just going to have to be fucked up, isn't it? You can't sit there and honestly expect every black person to fight side by side with someone that some already feel is "the enemy". Especially when this has already been done before (prior wars where blacks fought with whites for a "common goal" only to be treated like shit when the dust settled). Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you, but for some blacks, that's just the truth.
And I know plenty of "brothas" who would tell those "crackas" to go fuck themselves and fight their own war.
Okay, fine. You want it that way, we white folk can play it that way too. Only there's still a shitload more of us white folk, so maybe you might want to reconsider the idea of taking someone's offered olive branch and shoving it up their ass.
Okay, fine. You want it that way, we white folk can play it that way too. Only there's still a shitload more of us white folk, so maybe you might want to reconsider the idea of taking someone's offered olive branch and shoving it up their ass.
*laughing* Ah yes...the olive branch which turns into the knife in the back when the dust settles. Yeah..sounds like a
GREAT plan. :rolleyes:
I'm tempted to quote UT
"racism isn't a problem in the US"
racism will always be a problem as long as we have individuals (of all races, colors, creeds) that choose to hold too tightly to past wrongs. as long as there are people who pride themselves on being different or separate there will be someone who dislikes them for being different and separate.
Life rule #1: People suck
Life rule #2: Refer to rule #1 then get on with life
"*laughing* Ah yes...the olive branch which turns into the knife in the back when the dust settles. Yeah..sounds like a GREAT plan"
Well said Lady Syc.
And Lookout racism will always be a problem when power is invested disproportionately to one race to the detriment of another.
Dana - if we were all the exact same color, had the same religion, spoke the same language, etc... we would still have an ism to separate us. people in groups will always fragment out in factions and create bitter rivalries. it is human nature and is completely unavoidable until the human race is extinct.
that being said - racism continues because of an unwillingness of people on all sides to let go of the past. i've said it before the only way to end racism is for us all to screw until we are the same color... i'm willing to do my part for humanity, so let the screwing commence!
Lookout, your first point I agree with. People have a natural tendency to seek likeness and fear difference and to use that as a basis for factionalism...
Your second point I take issue with. The problem isnt that people refuse to let go the wrongs and resentments of the past. the problem is that the wrongs and resentments are not a problem of the past they are a problem of the present. The point is that racism *does* exist(for whatever reason) and as such demands a response. To hold ones hand up and say "That's it I will no longer bear a grudge against those who enslaved my great great grandparents " is all very well if the people who enslaved your great great grandparents werent still treating you as persona non grata and discriminating against you in a myriad different ways, some against the law and some not. If you had equal power in this new relationship that may allow you to let bygones be bygones but if you havent equal power within this modern relationship it quickly becomes apparent that the bygones havent in fact gone
No matter who you are, what color, race or creed, somebody isn't going to like you. Simple fact. If they don't like you, they'll probably not go out of their way to be polite. The best you can hope for is them not going out of their way to be impolite. The key here is "out of their way"
And I know plenty of "brothas" who would tell those "crackas" to go fuck themselves and fight their own war.
What is the %age of the military that is black? :eyebrow:
I think a more interesting question would be what percentage of Blacks are in the military?
I'd also be interested to know what percentage of the white population are in the military
and isn't the national pop like 10 or 11% black?
Perhaps a higher percentage of the Black population has to resort to the military in order to achieve an education or training in skills
Perhaps a higher percentage of the Black population has to resort to the military in order to achieve an education or training in skills
how is that a negative? people from all different backgrounds go in the military to earn college money and gain skills. most of the people who stick around until retirement went in for those very reasons andfound an environment in which they could flourish.
it doesn't matter what % of black,white, purple individuals are in the military. if you want to look at %'s - see if the military has the same percentages of ethnic groups as our population as a whole. i think that you will find that it does not match up. you would have to break it down into percentage of each ethnic group who doesn't have the money to send their kids to school, then i believe the numbers would correspond very closely.
most of the people go in the military for greater access to opportunity... that means that most of the military comes from a middle class or lower class background. but so what? they are taking advantage of a way to move up in life and kudos to all who choose to do so.
Perhaps a higher percentage of the Black population has to resort to the military in order to achieve an education or training in skills
I don't give a shit why they joined. They're in the military and I doubt like hell they're going to tell anyone, even "crackas" to go fuck themselves and fight their own war.
you're right bruce, they won't. to be fair i think she was referring to those not in the military. the military is not perfect and occasionally there are instances of racial intolerance but on the whole - everyone is there voluntarily, they know everyone else is there for the same purpose and treat eachother with professionalism.
hm i'm feeling the need to chime in. While in the US it might be a little different there are members of most minorities that like using that as an excuse to be antisocial and like playing up race issues. I've met maybe one or two people white people my age who hold any kind of racial grudge and went to a very multicultural high school where race was either a nonissue or a few harmless jokes that went in every direction. On more than one occasion here I've heard and been given lectures by young black guys wearing stupidly expensive clothing(which is all about race itself, FUBU and the like) about how 'the man' was keeping their people down and all this crap. Get the fuck over yourself, it's Switzerland, stop pretending you have some kind of excuse to break the law and act like an utter fucking wanker, noone gives a damn until you step out of line, then you can expect the same treatment as everyone else.
it is generally the same way here jag. there is some very unfortunate racism that still exists, but what i find more common is people that are hunting for a racist agenda where none exists. there will always be a small minority (made up of all ethnicities) that is always looking for the person holding them back, rather than looking for a goal to strive for.
*zips up flame retardent suit*
*zips up flame retardent suit*
Let me join you on that one. I understand the roots of modern black angst on these things and in some areas it still is a real problem but it's now a mainstream cultural anchorpoint for so many kids that's being exported via MTV around the world and helping create racial divides rather than break them down.
We are in complete agreement.
Should I play the lottery today with such an unlikely event as this happening?
*laughing* Ah yes...the olive branch which turns into the knife in the back when the dust settles. Yeah..sounds like a GREAT plan. :rolleyes:
Then you aren't interested in anything but treating white people as the enemy. And by doing so, you've provided ample justification for white people to reciprocate. Indeed, you make white people who do otherwise look like chumps. The ball's in your (collective) court.
Lookout, your first point I agree with. People have a natural tendency to seek likeness and fear difference and to use that as a basis for factionalism...
Your second point I take issue with. The problem isnt that people refuse to let go the wrongs and resentments of the past. the problem is that the wrongs and resentments are not a problem of the past they are a problem of the present. The point is that racism *does* exist(for whatever reason) and as such demands a response. To hold ones hand up and say "That's it I will no longer bear a grudge against those who enslaved my great great grandparents " is all very well if the people who enslaved your great great grandparents werent still treating you as persona non grata and discriminating against you in a myriad different ways, some against the law and some not. If you had equal power in this new relationship that may allow you to let bygones be bygones but if you havent equal power within this modern relationship it quickly becomes apparent that the bygones havent in fact gone
Thank you Dana. Various people, black and white, have said this in many ways over time, but people refuse to listen or at least, take it under account. It's so easy for some to say "just get over it" when it's not happening to them, directly or even indirectly. I just
will not use up what's left of my mental and emotional energy trying to convince people of anything anymore regarding racial/cultural issues.
Someone very clever once said:
**Don't tell people to get over the past when it's still haunting their
present. "Jeff"
Pardon me for not being ashamed of who I am, where I am from, where my parents and the generations before them were from. If such feeling is now considered racist, so be it, I'm a racist. Also please pardon me for determining which people are assholes and which are not on an individual interactional basis rather than based on membership of a certain group or class. I even mean that about liberals.
What is the %age of the military that is black? :eyebrow:
Race/Ethnicity of AC Enlisted Force:
http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep98/html/3-race_ethnicity.htmlI don't give a shit why they joined. They're in the military and I doubt like hell they're going to tell anyone, even "crackas" to go fuck themselves and fight their own war.
Of course not. The blacks that I spoke of are
NOT in the military.
Then you aren't interested in anything but treating white people as the enemy.
Eh, not really. I mean, I
AM romatically involved with a white person, so...
And when did I say that I wasn't interested in anything but treating white people as the enemy? I was just saying that there are many blacks who
DO feel that way. Unfortunate? Yes. Real? Yes. It is what it is.
And by doing so, you've provided ample justification for white people to reciprocate. Indeed, you make white people who do otherwise look like chumps. The ball's in your (collective) court.
*laughing* Interesting word choice in that last sentence...:haha:
How would
you go about changing minds?
Pardon me for not being ashamed of who I am, where I am from, where my parents and the generations before them were from. If such feeling is now considered racist, so be it, I'm a racist. Also please pardon me for determining which people are assholes and which are not on an individual interactional basis rather than based on membership of a certain group or class. I even mean that about liberals.
Mmm'kay everyone just calm down now. Nobody is saying that you should not be proud of who you are, where you came from, blah blah blah. It's not like you are going around yelling, "WHITE POWER!" and whatnot...I mean damn.
:cool:
But, if you want to be considered a racist...
you said it, not I. *shrugs*
I have long wondered about people who say they are "proud" to be "who they are", in terms of race or geography. To me that's like saying you're proud of having two functioning legs, or you're proud that you're father's side of the family has a lot of drunks. It's the luck of the draw. We don't get to choose where we're born, or what family or race we're born into - it's not like something we earned or worked for. I'm sure we all have lots of things to be proud of, and there's no need to claim our heritage, whether racial or cultural, as one of them. It's something none of us has any control over.
There is a difference between proud and not ashamed. I couldn't give a damn where I come from but I don't expect to be made to feel responsable for some vague attachment to something that happened in the past.
On that, you and I agree.
I have long wondered about people who say they are "proud" to be "who they are", in terms of race or geography. To me that's like saying you're proud of having two functioning legs, or you're proud that you're father's side of the family has a lot of drunks. It's the luck of the draw. We don't get to choose where we're born, or what family or race we're born into - it's not like something we earned or worked for. I'm sure we all have lots of things to be proud of, and there's no need to claim our heritage, whether racial or cultural, as one of them. It's something none of us has any control over.
I would say that we need to understand where we come from before we can relate honestly with folks from other backgrounds. It's about knowing what kind of crap those drunks dealt with and dealt to you. It is counter productive to obsess about race, but if you can figure out why your great grandfather hated blacks and put it into some kind of historical context, you might be able to avoid passing hate on to the next generation.
[edit] just to be clear I'm not saying you personally.
Jane as usual making a lot of sense
I gotcha.
It just seems that in 2004, it's irrelevent WHY anyone hated any other group of people three or four generations ago. Any thinking person should just plain ol' "know better". My dad found papers in his parents' house when his mom died, wills and things, which he saved for whatever historical value they might have. I found it completely shocking to read sentences like "I bequeath to my son John, Nigger Jim, a strapping buck of 26 years..." It just seemed completely foreign to me. I have no more connection to those people, or their lives, than I do to the Pope. What I'm saying is I was just as likely to be born to the family I have as I was to have been born into Russian royalty or a family of bushmen in Africa - I don't see any room for pride there; it's all accidental.
That said, I do enjoy reading those papers, but with no more interest than I would if it were someone else's ancestors. I don't feel pride that my dad's family owned slaves, or that my mother's family were German Nazis. I don't feel shame, either, because it had nothing to do with me. I could have as easily been Nigger Jim's daughter, or gassed in one of Hitler's tyrades.
Aww, Dana! You're so sweet. :blush:
I claim to not be a racist, but I suppose it's a matter of how someone define's it. I do, however, resent anyone treating me like the enemy when I've done nothing to them, indeed, I don't even know them. :(
Amen! Much the same that I resent anyone treating an entire group of people like the enemy when they're done nothing to us. When they do it only to you, it's Brucism. When we do it to a whole group of people, it's racism.
Do you absolutely, positively. cross your heart and hope to die, stick your finger in your eye, promise not to say, “Why didn’t they do more?” when the next one goes down? :cool:
I claim to not be a racist, but I suppose it's a matter of how someone define's it. I do, however, resent anyone treating me like the enemy when I've done nothing to them, indeed, I don't even know them. :(
Just as I hate being profiled based on skin color and others' behavior.
So, how do I change their minds?
You can't change their minds. That's the unfortunate part. And you know, the real issue is that it's not up to you to have to change them. No one should have to cajole or beg to be treated like a regular Joe(sephine).
You can't change their minds. That's the unfortunate part. And you know, the real issue is that it's not up to you to have to change them. No one should have to cajole or beg to be treated like a regular Joe(sephine).
No one is "begging" or otherwise.
Then I guess we continue as we are.
the core of the problem with racism is that it begets racism.
Just as I hate being profiled based on skin color and others' behavior.
So, how do I change their minds?
Do they say so or do you perceive their feelings? Do you assume anyone that's rude is racist?
I'm curious because I can't imagine many people openly stating they don't like you because your black. Also does in happen more when you're alone? With other black people? With Syc? :confused:
My issue runs more along the lines of the fact that there is a clear double standard ... pride is permitted, unless it's "white." One can be proud to be black, queer, latino/a, native american, pagan, asian, etc. without penalty ... but white pride is automatically equated with racism. White guy kicks the shit out of a black guy and it's a hate crime. Black males torture, rape, and kill four or five white young adults specifically because they are white and it's not.
An equally wrong double standard exists between behavior that I, as a female, can get away with, that a male would get reprimanded, fired, or criminallly charged for engaging in in the workplace.
If we're going to be fair about things, lets be fair.
No one should even have to ASK to be treated decently, much less beg, and I wasn't suggesting that you should. I hope that's not the impression that I gave.
And I agree that what's fair for one is fair for all. White people have never been persecuted in this country (and off the top of my head, I'm having a hard time coming up with a country where white people have been racially persecuted). Minorities still are not on a level playing field. The year I graduated, 1993, there were no black students in my high school. That's odd, since about 20% of this town's population is black. I remember two black girls, sisters, who began attending the school a few weeks after the school year started. Everything went fine, and they appeared to be rather well-liked, until the older sister tried out for, and made, the cheerleading squad. They didn't last two weeks after that. Everyone was willing to deal with them until they got "uppity". How dare they displace white girls from the cheerleading squad? They were harrassed until they left and began attending the "ghetto" school.
It seems obvious to me that if we can't treat "American minorities" with respect, we're not going to bother to do much better with "foreign minorities".
I remember two black girls, sisters, who began attending the school a few weeks after the school year started. Everything went fine, and they appeared to be rather well-liked, until the older sister tried out for, and made, the cheerleading squad. They didn't last two weeks after that.
How were they harassed? And by whom? It had to be some serious shit to force them out of the school in 2 weeks. Did they report it to the school administration? The police? :confused:
It seems obvious to me that if we can't treat "American minorities" with respect, we're not going to bother to do much better with "foreign minorities".
I disagree. It depends largely on the minority and that individual's attitude.
Personally, I'll give an Indian a lot of slack when I fist meet them. I like them collectively and have several friends in India.
If a black person doesnt come across as if I owe them something for being a white guy, I'll be very accomodating with them as well. The black people in this country are tough to deal with in the way that, from my experience, they take any negative that someone might have to say as something blatantly racist. How do you deal with that attitude? I find it difficult, although I do have some sympathy for much of the pre-1950s era.
The most successful encounters with blacks have been those with a good sense of humor. I guess that goes a long way with anyone. Humor tends to break many barriers. And a smile. A smile says, It's ok to talk to me. Again, this is just human nature.
Don't be so quick to be offended for Christ's sake. That's another barrier that I've seen in more than a few people, not just minorities. I'll like anyone if they just follow the basic rules of being a nice person. We may not click like someone else but that's just people, not different colors of people.
And......for my comedy wrap up.....I can hate you without regard to your nationality or skin color. :3eye:
One idea I forgot to mention here is that this country is a mix of almost all races and nationalities. There is an example of success for every different minority here. How would that type of racial diversity stack up in many of the other countries of the world? Not even close to us. We arent perfect but everyone that plays the game gets to win at some level.
I asked Syc one time whether anyone - neighbors, checkout ppl, etc. had made any specific comments about the fact that he and LSyc are a mixed couple and he said no. This, I should think, is progress.
My issue runs more along the lines of the fact that there is a clear double standard ... pride is permitted, unless it's "white."
This is my real sticking point, too. I don't understand why so-called 'racial heritage' is something for every other group in the world to be proud of, but of which Caucasians must forever hang their heads in shame.
Cultural celebration, if valid for one group, is valid for all.
White people have never been persecuted in this country (and off the top of my head, I'm having a hard time coming up with a country where white people have been racially persecuted).
That's because white people aren't really white. They can be Jewish, Italian, Irish, British, German, French, etc. etc. etc. And incidentally, the Irish were discriminated against viciously in the early 20th century in this country. The common sign outside businesses at the time was "No Irish Need Apply." Germans in this country were discriminated against during WWII. "White" applies to too many different people, especially in America.
This is my real sticking point, too. I don't understand why so-called 'racial heritage' is something for every other group in the world to be proud of, but of which Caucasians must forever hang their heads in shame.
Cultural celebration, if valid for one group, is valid for all.
Whites celebrate their various cultures all the time--Italian, Irish, etc. And most of them are fortunate in that they know where they came from. Most Blacks aren't so fortunate. Hell, most of them don't even have their own family names. Johnson? Strickland? Wilson? Those don't sound like African names to me.
As far as celebrating one's whiteness...well, look at American society. As a whole, it's still one big celebration of white (particaly WASP) pride, though that is changing.
Bruce, they were harassed by other students at the school. They were held against their will in the bathrooms, they were tripped, called names, etc. on a daily basis. I don't know if they ever took any legal action or not, but I don't think so. If they had, it would have been pretty big news. As another example, my friend dated a black teeanger who was living in a group home run by a cop and his wife. All the other teens who lived there went to our school, but when Marlon arrived every day, he got on another bus, headed for another school. The bus that went to the high school where the shared technical program for the county was located, because the school had advised him he'd be "safer" there.
slang, I'm sure the Indians appreciate all the slack you cut them. Very generous of you. And for the blacks who don't "come across like you owe them something", I'm sure the experience is enjoyed by all.
Are we never going to progress past the point where people actually say "I'm not racist! I have black/green/orange friends, or I work with them, or whatever"?
And Clodfobble, have you been watching Gangs of New York? I have Irish ancestors, and though I can empathize with what Irish immigrants must have faced many years ago, it's over now. Even someone who fancies themselves above the Irish won't be able to tell if you are if you don't tell them. The same can't be said for blacks.
Imagine, if you will, a smilie after my first sentence in the fourth paragraph.
I asked Syc one time whether anyone - neighbors, checkout ppl, etc. had made any specific comments about the fact that he and LSyc are a mixed couple and he said no. This, I should think, is progress.
It IS progress. But the stupid looks are still plentiful. I think racism has definitely decreased, but a lot of what was out there went covert, which tempers the progress made.
The danger there is misinterpreting a "look". It could be nothing more than revulsion of/at your haircut. ;) If you look for something, you're likely to find it.
Are we never going to progress past the point where people actually say "I'm not racist! I have black/green/orange friends, or I work with them, or whatever"?
Not while at best a portion of most minorities work on the basis that every 'cracker' is racist.
........treating me like the enemy........
That's pretty strong language there mister. You trying to start something??
The danger there is misinterpreting a "look". It could be nothing more than revulsion of/at your haircut. ;)
Always possible, but I'd say unlikely in many cases.
If you look for something, you're likely to find it.
There's nothing wrong with keeping your eyes open. And sometimes, things just happen right in front of you, when you're least expecting it.
Always possible, but I'd say unlikely in many cases.
Yeah, but I had to comment on your haircut. :haha:
Not while at best a portion of most minorities work on the basis that every 'cracker' is racist.
Now now..not
ALL, but there are some..even many. They just are not in your face like they have been in the past.
Bruce:
The danger there is misinterpreting a "look". It could be nothing more than revulsion of/at your haircut. If you look for something, you're likely to find it.
Heh, well all I can say is that when you are used to "the look", you can pretty much spot it a mile away, and it has nothing to do with the way your hair is that day.
:eyebrow:
And I agree that what's fair for one is fair for all. White people have never been persecuted in this country (and off the top of my head, I'm having a hard time coming up with a country where white people have been racially persecuted).
It's called
Zimbabwe.
And then there was
this incident in Wichita.
Here's a few more.
And it's the case that whites have been persecuted in the US, typically by other whites, as it happens. I believe someone else has pointed out what happened to successive waves of immigrants ... first the Irish, then Italians, then Poles ...
I am aware of these things, but I am also aware of James Byrd, the KKK, segregation, the fight for civil rights, and many, many other things that trump those that you mention. Are you honestly saying that white people suffer from persecution in the US?
You are saying that. I was refuting your statement that it never happens.
Are you honestly saying that white people suffer from persecution in the US?
Nope. That various ethnic groups did suffer from it in the past, strove to rise above it, and did so successfully. Like Bill Cosby was saying, if you value education and success over victimhood, then all of a sudden you wake up one day and you're not a victim anymore.
I am aware of these things, but I am also aware of James Byrd, the KKK, segregation, the fight for civil rights, and many, many other things that trump those that you mention. Are you honestly saying that white people suffer from persecution in the US?
james byrd - that's a recent event and fair play
kkk - other races have their stupid supremacy groups, too - and nobody respects them
segregation, the fight for civil rights - more than 30 years ago.
why is it that when someone points out that racism goes in all directions, the knee jerk reaction is to point out what white people have done in the past.
the james byrd tragedy is no more indicative of the average caucasion than the central park jogger assault is of the black or hispanic community.
but what you didn't see is a crowd of white people standing outside the courthouse campaigning that prosecuting Byrd's murderers was a racist witchhunt.
Are you honestly saying that white people suffer from persecution in the US?
Nope. That various ethnic groups did suffer from it in the past, strove to rise above it, and did so successfully. Like Bill Cosby was saying, if you value education and success over victimhood, then all of a sudden you wake up one day and you're not a victim anymore.
Hrm, I didn't get that from what he said, but oh well. Maybe I need to read his comments again. Brick walls and glass ceiling still exist.
Fact of life; advancement in most companies depends on networking and who you know, more than ability. This means everyone that's not "a friend", "golfing buddy", "poker pal", "fellow lodge member" of the boss or know someone who is, is screwed. That includes whites as well as anyone else. People being people, that will likely be the case for some time.
I remember back in the 70s, Westinghouse hired a black man to run the employment office, to make sure black people weren't discriminated against. After he had hired over 100 blacks, and nothing else, they fired him. :(
Justice for all? Not at work not yet anyway:
http://www.campusaction.net/publications/racism_guide/work_discrimination.htm
The civil-rights movement of the 1960s gave hope to African Americans for equity in the workplace. But almost four decades later, that promise remains largely unfilled, according to a recent study.
The survey of 1,003 workers was conducted last fall by Rutgers University and the University of Connecticut. It describes a "glaring divide" between white workers, who say most people are not discriminated against at work, and minorities, who do not agree. Particularly African Americans.
Among the findings: Half of African-American workers believe that blacks are the most likely ethnic group to be treated unfairly, compared to 10 percent of whites and 13 percent of other racial groups who believe African Americans are the most likely target. Fifty-six percent of higher-income nonwhite workers believe that African Americans are the employees most likely to be discriminated against, compared to 33 percent of higher-income white workers. And, 28 percent of African Americans report they have been discriminated against at work, compared to 6 percent of whites.
"That is indeed likely to be the perception of African-American workers today, because even though we've made some strides since the 1960s, discrimination still exists," said Chris Bardwell, a veteran career consultant, counselor and trainer based in Chicago.
"In terms of looking at the numbers of black men or women in executive positions, there are very few of us. African Americans still are most likely to be treated unfairly in terms of promotions, opportunities for additional training, being part of the good old boy network and special projects," said Bardwell.
Additionally, African Americans often feel isolated on the job-as Bardwell felt as the only African American in the executive ranks of a large organization. "You're held to a standard where you must be better than or twice as good as white men and women in order to get ahead," she said. "We are slowly progressing, but I just hope the numbers don't get worse."
I asked Bardwell where she would be today if discrimination hadn't been so pervasive. Without hesitation, she answered: "If I were white, I'd be a corporate senior vice president with a corner office and all the perks."
Howard Lindsey, chairman of the history department at DePaul University, says, "institutional white racism didn't die with the end of the civil rights movement. It took other forms and might not be as blatant-but if you look under the surface you find some of the same attitudes. And people with those attitudes will find a way to manifest them."
Lindsey, who teaches a course in African-American history, says these are the best of times and worst of times for blacks in the workplace. "The best, because the fact that there are now a few black CEOs is unprecedented," he said. "On the other hand, the masses of black workers, even though they're let in the door, are limited in how far they can go."
Still, 50 percent of the African Americans surveyed believe things have gotten better. "Is the glass half-full or half-empty? One out of two African Americans still experience discrimination," Lindsey said. "I don't think that's going to change that much that soon-but I'm hoping I'm wrong on this."
(c) 2002, Chicago Tribune.
I've read this story a couple of times. It's hard to tell if she's over reacting, or if this was a rehersal.
F
Another point that may be getting overlooked is why are they discriminted against?
Could it be that the disproportionate amount of illiteracy in the black community is skewing the number of representative blacks in jobs?
Could it be that the media representation of blacks is causing a sort of second-hand discrimination as opposed to the morons in the supremicist groups?
Also, what is the number (%) of black executives in the workforce? Are the levels correlated?
Well call me cynical but blacks thinking blacks are discriminated against doesn't count for much in my book. Call me cynical but I know from talking to cops here that every time they arrest a black kid here they call racism, never mind the fact they're guilty as sin and being dealt with like everyone else, in much the same way I'd say a fair bit if the hand-wringing in the article 'I didn't get promoted because I'm black' could just be because someone else was better for the job, god forbid. Or someone else, as bruce said, was a golfing buddy or fellow lodge member and race had shit all to do with it, just plain old jobs for the boys. I'm sure some of it goes on but hell, I know a fair few people that sit on boards of some damn big companies and if they thought their managers were skewing promotions based on race rather than peformance they'd hit the damn roof. Maybe it's different in the US but colour me skeptical.
Maybe then black people are just statistically least likely to be suited to the job ..... maybe there's some very good reason as to why their opportunities seem less and the wages they command overall dont quite add up to those of their white counterparts.
Funnily enough the very thing you point out as part of the reason for your skepticism is also the thing that suggests to me most strongly that the problem does exist as it's been stated.....to whit, the fact that it's usually black people who claim racism against themselves and their fellow blacks.....I hear that and it occurs to me that it's usually the white folks who are claiming racism as a nonissue. Perhaps that's because the life experience of a black man ( or woman) intorduces him to racism and bigotry at a very young age and in an intimate way.
So what? Every time things do go perfectly it's obviously racism and the man keeping them down and it couldn't possibly be anything else? Maybe it's an american thing but I've never heard and asian guy complain about racism in the workplace and I'm yet to come across these hoards of racist conspirators who are oppressing blacks in the workplace. I mean plenty of jobs-for-mates stuff goes on but that's nothing to do with race, just old school ties and lodge buddies.
the wages they command overall don't quite add up to those of their white counterparts.
Back that up with numbers or take it back.
From the Columbus Dispatch
"THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Black workers in Ohio earn 83 cents to every dollar that white workers earn and the gap is widening, a study being released today found.
Policy Matters Ohio, a Cleveland-based nonprofit research group, also said black workers in Ohio are more likely to hold poverty-wage jobs and earn less than white workers with similar education levels.
"The basic finding is that blacks still earn less than white workers do in Ohio and, in fact, that gap is growing,'' said Amy Hanauer, executive director of Policy Matters Ohio. "It's a big problem.''
Three-year-old Policy Matters Ohio is a nonpartisan, nonprofit research group funded by the George Gund Foundation. Its information is sent to legislators, although Hanauer said the group is not a lobbying organization.
Today's report, "What Color is Your Paycheck? Race and Wages in Ohio,'' used state-specific U.S. Census Bureau data from 2001.
It found that the median wage of black workers in Ohio fell to $10.91 an hour from $12.49 an hour between 1979 and 2001. White workers saw their median wages decrease to $13.17 an hour from $13.84 an hour during that span. Based on these figures, the so-called racial wage gap for blacks has increased to 17.2 percent from 9.8 percent in from 1979 to 2001, the group said.
The study found wages of both blacks and whites increase with more education. It said blacks that don't complete high school earn $8.32 per hour. On average, their wages increase 20 percent if they complete high school, 15 percent with one to three years of education past high school and 39 percent with a college or graduate degree.
Hanauer said reasons for the overall disparity in wages include a loss of manufacturing jobs, a reduction in union jobs, the movement of businesses from inner cities to suburbs, disparities in education among blacks and whites, and discrimination.
State Sen. C.J. Prentiss, D-Cleveland, a board member of Policy Matters Ohio and outgoing president of the Ohio Legislative Black Caucus, said the wage gap mirrors similar disparities among blacks and whites, including those in housing, health care and educational achievement.
Prentiss believes wages won't improve until education does.
"The things that I think our society can quickly do something about is the disparity that exists in education and discrimination,'' Prentiss said. "When you don't underfund schools, you're able to attract high-quality teachers, which is what urban schools need.''
Stephen Mangum, senior associate dean for economic programs and professor of management and human resources at Ohio State University, agrees that decreases in industrial jobs and union jobs are reasons for the wage gap. But he said he doesn't believe education can be blamed, because "disparities in terms of educational attainment are declining, not growing.''
The study also found that:
* The percentage of all workers earning less than the poverty-wage rate ($8.63 an hour in 2001) increased from 1979 to 1989 but has decreased since. In 2001, 21.9 percent of white workers earned poverty wages or less, while 28.8 percent of black workers were at or below that level.
* White women's wages increased 13.3 percent between 1989 and 2001, while black women's earnings decreased.
* The 17 percent racial wage gap falls to 12.5 percent when comparing wages of union workers.
The findings make sense to Walter Cates, president of the Main Street Business Association in Columbus. Cates, a longtime proponent of minority rights, said he also blames a lack of diversity in major corporations for the racial wage gap.
"Like kind helps support like kind,'' Cates said. "If I'm a young, up-and-coming college-educated business executive, unless there's some ruling or wish from the top that diversity will be respected and honored, it doesn't happen much.''
Article
Funnily enough the very thing you point out as part of the reason for your skepticism is also the thing that suggests to me most strongly that the problem does exist as it's been stated.....to whit, the fact that it's usually black people who claim racism against themselves and their fellow blacks.....I hear that and it occurs to me that it's usually the white folks who are claiming racism as a nonissue. Perhaps that's because the life experience of a black man ( or woman) intorduces him to racism and bigotry at a very young age and in an intimate way.
or maybe it is that many white people like me have been accused of racism by those who cry the loudest. these is an accusation that makes all thinking individuals step back in a moment of introspection. i have always come away from those moments acknowledging that if you think the world is out to get you, it is very easy to find examples of wrongs directed at you. i know, for myself, that i hold no racist ideologies. in fact, my lack of racism is often what causes the racist card thrown in my direction. i don't care what color a person is. for good or bad, i don't care. they will receive no special attention, positive or negative, due to skin color. i feel no obligation to provide ANY special consideration for skin pigmentation. i am responsible for my actions alone, i hold no historic guilt and will not be yoked by someone else's guilt. a person is just a person in my eyes.
------------------
dana snuck in ahead of me: always look just beyond the numbers too. when i was in college, my minority relations professor (who hated me :D ) required that we look into a recent news story in the area. the largest fire department in the area had fewer than 10 black firefighters out of well over 100 total firefighters. everyone wrote papers about the obvious racist bent of the FD. i wrote mine on the fact that black firefighters hired vs compared to black firefighters applied was a much better ration than white firefighters hired vs white firefighters applied. his predictable response was that if my research was accurate that it only proved the FD was racist for not going out and finding more black applicants. this FD was very popular, they didn't do much in the way of recruiting - they would show up to the local highschools and colleges for the pre-graduation job fairs to hand out fliers, that is it.
but that goes to show that if you look hard enough, you can find a racist bent to anything.
That's a civilised attitude Lookout. Unfortunately there are enough people who dont think like that as to make a racist world. Just because some whites are not racist does not make the black experience any less discriminated against.
i don't care what color a person is. for good or bad, i don't care. they will receive no special attention, positive or negative, due to skin color. i feel no obligation to provide ANY special consideration for skin pigmentation. i am responsible for my actions alone, i hold no historic guilt and will not be yoked by someone else's guilt. a person is just a person in my eyes.
Nicely put.
Interesting article Dana, I might see if I can dig up some comparative studies this side of the pond, it'd be intersting to see whether it's a byproduct of the history of the US or the result of just good old fashioned bigots the world over.
On a side note, if you're white and want to experience discrimination go to a 3rd world nation, particularly in asia. You'll pay white tax - goods cost 10-40% more, you're almost certainly going to get a traffic ticket every time you see a cop, taxes will be higher and bribes far more expensive.
i know what you are saying jag - when i was in the middle east it was pointed out that even if i am broadsided in the middle of an intersection while safely travelling through a green light, the accident would be my fault if the driver of the other car was of arab descent - after all, if i wasn't there, they couldn't have hit me.
On a side note, if you're white and want to experience discrimination go to a 3rd world nation, particularly in asia. You'll pay white tax - goods cost 10-40% more, you're almost certainly going to get a traffic ticket every time you see a cop, taxes will be higher and bribes far more expensive.
Not to mention the restaurants where you will simply be asked to leave if you are white--most notably in Japan.
My husband spent two years in Japan, and he just assured me that he was never asked to leave any establishment in the country. He says he frequented everything from dive clubs to very nice restaurants and was always treated with the highest kindness and decency.
It really only happens in the rural areas, so I'm told. My friend wasn't actually asked to leave, but that's because her Japanese companions specifically told her to avoid a couple of restaurants.