An interview with a Suicide Bomber
This just scares the be-jeezus out of me. These are not well formed, rational thoughts. What kind of bankrupt culture glorifies people who would send a child to do this? What kind of culture gives aid and comfort to those who plan and execute such horrors?
We don't talk much about moral parity around here; it's kind of been out of vogue since the "Evil Empire" speech. Maybe it's time to.
-sm
There was a recent article about how the BBC puts the most pro-israel spin on their news (in the UK), this was no exception. They ran this on BBW with the line 'suicide bomber didn't want to go to school', sure, skip over the minor fact his best mate was wasted by the IDF.
The more and more research I do into the situation (still planning a trip but moved back for uni reasons) the less and less surprised I am by this stuff, the pressure cooker environment the palastinians are living in is utterly insane. I've talked to a number of hacks who have been over there, all of them identify with their plight. Given the desperation, the humiliation, the poverty, the economic backbreaking and sheer difficulty of daily life, there is no surprise here.
If by "hacks" you mean reporters ... how can they provide unbiased reportage if they "identify with their [Palestinians'] plight?" Or is unbiased reporting an american fantasy?
Being able to seperate personal feelings from your work is a fairly important requirement. However, all reporting is biased, but it's usually the paper and it's owners, not the reporter.
Hussam: The thing is my parents forced me to go to school and I didn't want to go. So I used to go there and run away. Then I had problems with the teachers. The principal took me to the police because I got into a fight with the teachers.
Although the societal pressures Jag spoke of are tough, this kid would be called a juvenile delinquent or hoodum, here. None would be surprised, he got into bigger trouble.
What they offered this kid was a way out, that unlike the other kids around the world that off themselves, promises honor for them and their families. :yelsick:
In the TV interview he didn't come across as the brightest cookie.
The Palestinians put themselves in this condition. They depended on Israel for all the good jobs. Then they restarted the Intifada. They are in a mess right now because their main industry is blowing themselves up and it is a losing industry. The people who put them in this position are the ones in the BBC article who promise to rebuild the kid's family's house and send them money.
Like all societies and nations everywhere, they will only move forward when they stop blaming others for their condition. Allah aside there is no good money in blaming Israel for everything. For a while the EU funded that but these days it's too transparent for them to keep doing so.
'Tis a mite difficult to conduct a proper economy if the neighbouring state is occupying most of your prime land and building ruddy great walls through your farms
Yes, that is a perfect example of blaming others for their condition.
Thats somewhat akin to calling out the Poles for blaming the Germans for their condition
Sadly UT, it's nowhere near that simple. First of all, you imply that every palastinian supports the violence, that's a fairly stupid statement to say the least. The PA has all but collapsed internally, it's virtual anarchy. There are a nuber of industrial zones in side both the west bank and th gaza strip, one of the lesser known rammifactions of the pullout is that Israel is shutting down a number of these zones, further worsening the already dire jobs situation. It is also close to impossible for any factories in those zones to export goods thanks to Israeli restrictions making home grown industry a tad difficult. Another issue is farming, Israel often bulldozes olive groves as part of security operations as a punitive measure, sure is constructive stuff. The wall that is now being built also not only cuts many districts in half but cuts many farmers off from their land, this land is in some cases then being used by settlers.
You're poor, to get to work, on the rare occasions you're allowed at all you're sometimes forced to strip naked in the street and make animal noises by armed soldiers, your house has been demolished for being in the wrong place, your brother was shot for looking out a window during an IDF raid and an uzi-weilding settler gang beat the shit out of your grandfather in the middle of the street and burned off in a car yelling that mohammed was a shoe. Your uncle used to own an amusement park but the IDF established a watchtower nearby and proceeded to destroy all the rides with sniper fire. All of these have happened, over and over and over. How would you react? How would you feel?
You want to talk about state sponsered terrorism? Talk about 3 billions dollars work of US military aid. Talk to the husband of a pregnant woman who was killed when a IDF solider on patrol slipped on the trigger. Talk to the mother of a daughter who had her head blown off by a paranoid solider during a raid.
What would you do? You can't get a job, you can't start a business, you can't even walk down the street safely.
Let's just nuke them both! :nuke:
Yet more examples.
If the Pals announced tomorrow that they were ending suicide bombing at the top levels, they would have a state by 2005 and the wall down by 2007 and you know it. As it is, the wall is the only thing that has worked and the world is unhappy that snipers can't kill little Jewish children any longer. Well my fucking sympathies. Terror doesn't work let's try something else.
"If the Pals announced tomorrow that they were ending suicide bombing at the top levels, they would have a state by 2005 "
Again the assumption that the Palestinians have some sort of coherent and unified command structure. If Arafat announced tomorrow that all suicide bombing would end, he'd be made a liar within 2 days.
jesus you don't get it do you? How do you organize a truce where there is no authority and hundreds of splintered groups? Seriously, it's close to impossible, the entire region has been plunged into such depression there is no functioning government, there's no police force that can magically reign in the militants. Even if one groups holds a truce(and they have tried), others don't and the army uses it as an excuse to launch more inflammatory raids which only serve to destroy whatever fragile moves there were towards peace.
There are no 'top levels', there is no central command, the PA couldn't run a bath, let alone reign in militant cells that have survived the IDF for decades against their will.
let me turn your little argument around so you can see how silly it looks.
Imagine if Osama made a speech tomorrow saying they would lay off America and instead start working for political reform in the middle east though peaceful means if every simple American didn't say anything nasty about Islam tomorrow. Would that be reasonable? Or would that be laughed at?
Boy wouldn't it suck if one hardline asshole blew it for everyone and the enemy refused to recognise that
I think the Israelis should stop blaming the Palestinians for their problems and using that as an excuse to act in an illegal and immoral fashion.
Most bombers come from the Al Aqsa martyr's brigade which is a part of Arafat's Fatah. If Arafat announced tomorrow that all suicide bombing would end, he'd say it in English and the next hour say the complete opposite in his native tongue, as he often has. The truth is, every morning he wakes up and arranges his headgear in the shape of all of the land he believes he has the right to, as a message to his people. Arafat is a billionaire who has made his money by scuttling the promise of his people, in order to wage a proxy war.
Arafat is a hero to some, a villain to others. A one time very brave warrior and tireless worker for the interests of his people. He's also a very old and ill man. His power is.......nominal
Arafat is a tired old man. If arafat dropped dead tomorrow the world would undoubtedly be a better place but I fail see what that has to do with it. Al Aqsa is as much a coherent organization as Al Queda, held together by ideology and consisting of hundreds of independent cells that have little or no cross-contact to reduce the danger of a whole number being blown by mossad.
Or somehow, in your twilight zone, his existence justify the worst systematic persecution the world over by a developed state.
You refuse to answer my question. How would that treatment make you feel? Or is the answer not something you'd like to admit? Would it make you angry maybe? Maybe you'd want revenge? Hmmm, i wonder now.
One wonders just how far Israel can go before those who sympathis e begin to see their criminality. Perhaps if they began slaughtering Palestinians in their thousands .......Though I doubt it. I am beginning to think that even if Israel waged genocide against the Palestinians ( as opposed merely to the ethnic cleansing which they have thus far engaged in ) those in America who support them would continue to believe that the Palestinians brought it upon themselves. Maybe Israel is the only nation which is allowed to commit crimes against humanity with impunity
jesus you don't get it do you? How do you organize a truce where there is no authority and hundreds of splintered groups?
This "no authority" is a new claim. If Arafat didn't have the authority to accept the offer made via Clinton in 1999, then he didn't have the authority to announce the intifada and the intifada never began, right?
I rather think the Intefada began regardless of whether Arafat announced it or not.
"This "no authority" is a new claim"
Well.....Its' a dynamic situation. The more the Israelis destroy of the Palestinians infrastucture; the more they cause grief, anger and despair amongst the militants; the further they undermine Arafat's authority within Palestine .......the less authority any one person or group is able to claim over Palestine
You refuse to answer my question. How would that treatment make you feel? Or is the answer not something you'd like to admit? Would it make you angry maybe? Maybe you'd want revenge? Hmmm, i wonder now.
Even if you had a point which was not seeped in blame of others, hundreds upon hundreds of cultures have faced similar situations and NOT turned to the killing of innocents as an approach.
Here is your answer then.
Nothing that could possibly be done to me could excuse my killing an innocent victim. I would not do it.
And you would. We establish this every year.
"Even if you had a point which was not seeped in blame of others, hundreds upon hundreds of cultures have faced similar situations and NOT turned to the killing of innocents as an approach."
Give an example
Five year old Gal Aizenman, blown up with her grandmother for riding a bus. I would not kill her and nothing that could possibly be done to me could excuse me killing her. I would not do it.
Give an example of other cultures facing similar situations to that of the Palestinians and refraining from shedding innocent blood
"I would not kill her and nothing that could possibly be done to me could excuse me killing her. I would not do it."
In that case how are the killings of Palestinian civilians an excusable and understandable response to Palestinian bombs?
Give an example of other cultures facing similar situations to that of the Palestinians and refraining from shedding innocent blood
The Jews, during the holocaust.
"I would not kill her and nothing that could possibly be done to me could excuse me killing her. I would not do it."
In that case how are the killings of Palestinian civilians an excusable and understandable response to Palestinian bombs?
They are not, which is why Palestinian civilians are not specifically targeted.
While Shai was in charge of the area, a terrorist had opened fire on an Israeli family returning from a wedding. A 7-year-old girl was killed; Shai removed her body from the car.
"When you take out a child with a big hole in her chest," he said, pointing to the spot where the attack occurred, "you understand why you need this wall. We measured the angle from the highest house where a sniper might be hiding to the road and built it accordingly."
Harriet had a question, but it was not about the horror that Shai, himself a father of young children, had witnessed that day.
"So if they build something higher, you’ll raise the wall?" she asked.
No, Shai explained, the army has basically cleared the terrorists out of Kalkilya, so one benefit for the residents is that an Israeli army battalion no longer must be stationed inside the town.
"Wait," Harriet interrupted, "are you trying to say that the fence is making life better for the Palestinians?"
"In some cases, yes," replied Shai, echoing recent comments by the head of the Jenin Chamber of Commerce, who said the retreat of the Israeli army following the construction of the security fence has led to a revitalization of business, nightlife and investment in that Palestinian community.
full articleThe Jews, during the holocaust.
You'd think they'd understand the hardships of state sponsered persecution wouldn't you?
Civvies aren't normally targetted but colleteral is incredibly high, shoot first and ask questions later is the motto for raids. There are however exceptions, like an Apache firing a hellfire into a peaceful protest a month or two ago.
I'm sure Jewish Weekly quoting an IDF officer is *totally* unbiased in every way.
I assume since you realize silly arguments about the magical leader of every single palastinian citizen doesn't exist you're retreating to such enlightening arguements as 'there are palastinian snipers'. I mean seriously, that article was not even close to journalism, if anything, it highlighted his own baises and inability to see that there is suffering on both sides.
I assume since you realize silly arguments about the magical leader of every single palastinian citizen doesn't exist you're retreating to such enlightening arguements as 'there are palastinian snipers'.
Yes and since the snipers are a valid response according to you, I assume you won't use them as a counter-argument.
The Problem of a leader who does not represent the people is a difficult one. I assume you are in favor of Democratization and whatever might bring that about. Not sure how you resolve the Hussein problem if the Arafat problem is a valid one. The Pals who blow people up seem to consider Arafat a legit leader - they rally around him when he is threatened - so if their bombing and sniping actions are valid their support of Arafat is valid too.
The truth is that the Pals are led to believe that through their actions they can actually defeat Israel, which is why they persist and why other peoples, such as (look, more examples, Dana) the Tibetans with China, the Kurds with Hussein, etc. do not turn to suicide bombing of innocent people.
A great majority of Palestinian people are in favor of continuing the intifada.
Well, we have a few problems here.
Firstly.
This "no authority" is a new claim. If Arafat didn't have the authority to accept the offer made via Clinton in 1999, then he didn't have the authority to announce the intifada and the intifada never began, right?
What year is it? No, really. They have no been in a position to reign in militants without outside help for a very long time, as the situation has deteriorated they have lost most remaining authority and ability.
Secondly, you fail to differentiate between an understandable response and a valid response. I in no way support terrorism but I understand why people have resorted to the actions they have, it's called empathy.
Secondly, please stop using the 'aww cute liddle kid got wasted line', it does nothing for your argument and frankly, serves only to undermine the entire discussion.
I'd like to see a source (preferably avoid rabid zionist monthly this time) for the 'vast majority', in detail. I'm fairly convinced the vast majority of people just want to get on with their lives without being shot, humiliated, bombed, shot at from choppers, caught in inter-group fighting and IDF/militant fighting. That goes for both sides. The 70% odd support for the withdrawal from Gaza points strongly to that. Those that do support continuing the campaign most likely do so because periods of relative peace certainly haven't drawn many concessions from the Israelis.
As far Arafat, he is a symbol, of course people are going to rally around him, doesn't mean they listen to them or if his will is not particularly popular it's going to happen.
"The truth is that the Pals are led to believe that through their actions they can actually defeat Israel, which is why they persist and why other peoples, such as (look, more examples, Dana) the Tibetans with China, the Kurds with Hussein, etc. do not turn to suicide bombing of innocent people."
Interesting that you draw on both Tibet and the Kurds as examples of peoples who face a similar situation to that of the Palestinians. I am heartened that you see the equivalences in both of those. Both are examples of horrendously repressive regimes who have asserted their will violently against another people and refused to grant them even the most basic of freedoms and rights.
You also point out that the Jews did not resort to suicide bombing during the Holocaust. Is it then your assertion that when faced with potential or actual genocide a people should maintain only a peaceful resistance? If the history books had within them descriptions of Jewsih suicide bombers blowing up a cafe in Berlin in protest for Auschwitz would you seriously condemn them?
The Victims of the holocaust did not have time to plan and equip a violent resistance. They had been removed from positions which would have allowed the procurement of weaponry long before the Final Solution had been decided upon. Who knows what they may have decided to do to fight their oppressor had the Germans chosen to oppress them much over a long time rather than annihilate them in the fastest possible way.
When WW2 was fought and the world rallied to one side or the other the Allies very much did target civlians. There is no way to firebomb an entire city and not kill civilians. At that time the nations involved believed that total war was the answer. What the Palestinians are doing pales in comparison to what we did to various ares of Germany, not to mention Japan. The only reason it seems so much worse in the Middle East is because the people conducting the war are not an organised state army.......at least not on the Palestinian's side.......Which brings me back to the beginning of this post. Interestingly most Americans percieve Chinese activities in Tibet as an appalling act of oppression against a weaker people. Likewise the Hussein regime's maltreatment of the Kurds. Even if the Kurds had resorted to blowing up buses in Basra it wold not change the basic facts of their oppression. It merely adds another innocent life to the tally and leaves another mother weeping.
Dana, fine. If you believe Israel is acting predatorily, my examples are strong and provide evidence of people not turning to suicide bombing. If you don't, my examples are weak but you'll still need to explain why terrorism is acceptable.
And. Either Israel and Palestine are in Total War, or they are not. If Palestinians believe they are in Total War and thus killing of civilians is acceptable, then Israel may retaliate in any way they like, because it's Total War.
The real problem is that the Pals believe they are in Total War and Israel is so strong that it can keep their Total War at bay by swatting them like mosquitos. To be truly resolved maybe it will require actual Total War from both sides. I'm not sure you'd like the result.
i fair to see the difference between sudicde bombing and just plain old civvy killing which I used by, oh, every terrorist movement in history, hell I could name around 15 off the top of my head.
Now why do they do that I wonder. I wonder if it's anything to do with overwheling odds, poor equipment, lack of numbers, lack of professional training and sheer desperation. There can't be many harder targets in the world than an Israeli military positions, how one is meant to attack one with an Ak47 and a homemade mortar if you're lucky is beyond me.
What year is it? No, really. They have no been in a position to reign in militants without outside help for a very long time, as the situation has deteriorated they have lost most remaining authority and ability.
If Arafat had authority in 1999 then you still need to explain why he didn't reign in the terrorists at that point.
Secondly, you fail to differentiate between an understandable response and a valid response. I in no way support terrorism but I understand why people have resorted to the actions they have, it's called empathy.
Struggling to have empathy for the terrorists and avoiding it for the innocent victims is called being an ass... at the politest.
Secondly, please stop using the 'aww cute liddle kid got wasted line', it does nothing for your argument and frankly, serves only to undermine the entire discussion.
I will most certainly not stop. She is at the root of everything we've discussed. You have empathy for her killer. You believe that, if you were in her killer's place, you could find yourself making the same decision, to push that button or pull that trigger.
I'd like to see a source (preferably avoid rabid zionist monthly this time) for the 'vast majority', in detail. I'm fairly convinced the vast majority of people just want to get on with their lives without being shot, humiliated, bombed, shot at from choppers, caught in inter-group fighting and IDF/militant fighting. That goes for both sides. The 70% odd support for the withdrawal from Gaza points strongly to that. Those that do support continuing the campaign most likely do so because periods of relative peace certainly haven't drawn many concessions from the Israelis.
Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Ramallah.
Poll taken 3 weeks ago. Survey SAYS:
- 10) If separate elections were to take place for the office of the president of the PA, you would vote for:
Arafat 54%, Other 15%, Don't know 27%
- 13) Would you support or oppose armed attacks against Israeli targets from the Gaza Strip after the implementation of this disengagement plan which has been approved by the Israeli government?
55% support or strongly support.
- 16) In recent weeks there is a sharp decrease in the level of violence exerted by both sides. In your opinion should Palestinians continue nevertheless the suicide bombings inside Israel if an opportunity arises?
58.6% yes or definitely yesMy point is that the State of Israel is conducting a punitive war against the Palestinians ( whose lands they now occupy). Since Palestine has no actual army or state apparatus for the waging of war they have to use other, less conventional means.
There was a time when violence by Indians against the British, or even American against the British were both characterised as Terrorism. Any non state sanctioned violence against a dominant power is characterised by the dominant power ( and its allies) as terrorism and by those who carry it out as resistance and the fight for freedom. Bombs in civlian areas have been used by many resistance groups in history, what differentiates the current class of terrorist is that they use their own bodies as the delivery mechanism.
What differentiates the terrorist from the soldier is not merely that the terrorist targets civlians and the soldier targets other soldiers. What differentiates the two is that one wages a sanctioned war and the other wages an illegal one. America targetted villages of civlians during the Vietnam war because they were "sympathetic" to and therefore helpful to the enemy. Israel does the same thing. Britain did the same thing in Iraq whne we occupied it.
Intent however is not everything. There are other factors to consider. In Iraq we waged a war which killed thousands of Iraqi civilians. The fact that we were not actively seeking them out does not change the fact that they are dead. Likewise the fact that Israelis claim not to be actively targetting civilians does not change the fact that civilians are dying. The fact that the Palestinian suicide bombers are deliberately targetting civilians does not make the families of their victims suffer more than the families of dead Palestinians. Nor does it change the fact that there is a huge disparity betweenn the number of families made to suffer thus amongst the Israelis and their counterparts amongst the Palestinians.
Regardless of the Palestinians methodology their case is still a strong one. Israel is illegally occupying thehir land and they as a people are doing anything to resist. When America was wounded on 9/11 she struck o ut with force at those she saw as culpable. She was fortunate. She is a great nation with all the resources a great nation tends to have......America did not need to target civlians to make her point. America has the military resources to allow her the luxury of targetting armies and soldiers. If the Palestinians targetted primarily military personnel, they would be unable to make the slightest dent to Israels strength. They essentially have two choices. They can either fight for their homeland or surrender to Israel with no further resistance. If they choose to fight they would be foolish to attack Israel where she is strong. Only an incompetant general wages war on his enemy's strongest front. Since the Palestinians have no equivalent force with which to wage war against a well equipped army, they would be foolish to attack military personnel as to do so would simply bring a swift and bloody end to the battle with no gain to those that fall. It would have been a pointless sacrifice. Instead they choose easy targets. A competant general chooses to attack his enemy at his weak point. Many many armies have in the past waged their wars by "harrowing" the enemy's civilian populace. It makes military ( if not moral) sense in some circumstances to do so. Such activity has in the past proved useful in subduing civilian populations and severing their links with resistance fighters.
What the Palestinians are doing is waging war against an occupying Nation in the only way which has been left to them.
If Arafat had authority in 1999 then you still need to explain why he didn't reign in the terrorists at that point.
Because he felt he could get more ground by pushing a little harder most likely, I never defended arafat. Whether he could have at that point? I doubt it but certainly more possible than today.
She is not at the root of everything we have discussed. She's one of literally tens of thousands of innocent deaths on both sides.
Your survey does you more disfavours than favours when taken in context, unless statistics have been mssively revised 5% is not a 'massive majority' and considering the pressure cooker situation, low. There are many other factors, we don't know who was asked, when they were asked, and most importantly, who was present. Arafat has a tendancy to off contenders on way or another, there really is little political opposition, considering that I'd say this was a pretty low number.
You also failed to mention the questions in full, let me fill in the gaps you puttied over with spin:
12) Recently, the Israeli Government has approved a modified version of Sharon's disengagement plan. According to this plan Israel will evacuate unilaterally and in stages, all settlements in the Gaza strip and a four settlements in the West Bank.
In addition Israel will remain in control of a border strip on the Rafah-Egypt border and on the border crossing, and will continue to block sea and air access to the Gaza strip. Do you welcome or do not welcome this decision?[QUOTE]Is the question you quoted the number from. Now, look a little further down and...
4) And if the Israeli government evacuates the Gaza settlements and withdraws completely from the Gaza Strip, including the border strip with Egypt and the international border crossing in Rafah, and if it lifts the air and see blockade so that the airport and sea port would function again, would you in this case support or oppose armed attacks against Israeli targets from the Gaza Strip?[/QUOTE]
59.3% Oppose
37.1% Approve.
So in short, if they really withdraw and let the area function as a viable economic zone with a certain amount of freedom, a stronger majority than all the questions you seem to think are son damning oppose attacks against Israel. Hell even in the West Bank, which would still be a mess of settlements, walls and IDF checkpoints nearly 30% support stopping attacks!
Also worth noting 74% support unifying the palastinian security services under a cabinet, not arafat and bringing in egyptian military advisors - to help develop a capable independant leadership.
If the Palestinian "refugees" had remained within the borders defined for Israel and become participatory citizens in the country and government, this wouldn't be an issue right now. A lot of the refugess, IIRC, have been ejected from other arab countries, including Jordan ...
(incidentally, I'm not a big fan/supporter of how the British just decided that Israel would exist.)
wolf, Israel would never allow them all to become citizens - the current Israelis would become a minority. The US leaned HEAVILY (this is post-ww2, they had some big bargaining chips) on the UK to establish Israel.
Riddle me this. What is the problem with a fence besides the location issue? I want these idiots in neutral corners, now.
I watched a documentary quite a while ago detailing a jewish/zionist family's move from Long Island to a settlement in Israel. They went pretty in depth into the risks they are their children would face - they had a very 'god wants us to live there, god will protect us' attitude.
I have a hard time with the notion that the settlers (and their adorable children) are innocent victims. It seems to me there are martyrs on both sides.
Israel is actively recruiting
North Americans.
(yes, Jag, I know you despise WND, but that's where I saw the article.)
If the fence followed the actual boundaries, I don't think it would be much of an issue.
Speaking of mass Jewish immigration, 5000 Hasidic Jews from Brooklyn are apparently looking to settle here in the Northeast.
They must have run out of room in Lakewood NJ.
There's a couple good Kosher places in the NE. One or two even Glatt Kosher. Not really the NE, but ... there used to be a Glatt Kosher Chinese restaurant in Elkins Park. Right across the street from what was then Rolling Hill Hospital, so that should give some folks an idea of how long ago that was ... (it's been through two name changes and a brief closure since then.)
Does that include the name change it went through last year (it's now MossRehab/Einstein at Elkins Park)?
Make that four, then ... because I could have sworn that last week it was "Elkins Park Hospital." (although that could be what staff are calling it out of frustration over the frequent name changes)
I checked. Damn, it is part of MossRehab now. We'll have to be careful about that ... we were thinking they were an actual hospital.
It was Elkins Park Hospital until last year, when Tenet sold it to Einstein/Jefferson Health. Based on
this, it's still an actual hospital.
Why don’t these North American Jews just swap houses with the Pals?
I wonder who’s in Arafat’s will, who gets the billions? :eyebrow:
Just to illustrate my point about leadership breakdown, parts of fatah, in theory part of arafat's security force burned down a couple of buildings belonging to the security forces to protest to new security chief.